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On August 11 2011 17:48 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:32 roymarthyup wrote:
i believe i have a build that is good at countering the 1/1/1 and have been using it the last 2weeks , and any protoss out there that thinks they are good enough at executing a terran 1/1/1 may feel free to PM me and you can battle me and see if your 1/1/1 can beat me
or if any tosses out there have a good terran friend to fight me, you can tell him to pm me and i can create a replay with us fighting
the build is a zero sentry build that gets 1 very fast voidray, 3-4 stalkers, and a fast robo (at about 5:30) because it cut sentrys it has enough gas to do all of this. the build ONLY gets 1 voidray, to scout, since marines without stim cannot catch a voidray. and i bring my stalkers with the voidray during the scouting mission so if he has a viking i can save the vray and know he got a super fast starport and is going 1/1/1
heres the build
9pylon (scout with probe)
2 chronoboosts on nexus
14gate
15gas
16pylon
17gas
chronoboost on nexus
19cyber
make stargate+stalker immediately after cyber is done. this allows the terran to scout the stargate, but guess what, who cares. i dont give a damn. let him scout it, he can stop doing a 1/1/1 if he scouts it and i feel at this point i can react properly to whatever he does
i poke his ramp with my first stalkers to see if he is fast expanding. if he is fast expanding i get a expansion too. because im not getting sentrys i go for a fast collossi if i scout plenty barracks. i get ONLY 1 voidray out of the stargate for nothing other than scouting purposes. the voidray in total costs 400/300, however since marines without stim cannot catch it i normally can kill 1 marine or scv or a depot at the 6 minute mark then run away and recharge shields which if you reduce that from the cost of the voidray that means the real cost of the voidray is like 300/300, and for its cost it has some power in combat but most importantly the voidray provides a full complete scout at the 6 minute mark (it reaches the terran base at 6 minutes) because you get it so fast
the voidray comes out at around 5:30 and i scout with it before the terran can have stim
the voidray+stalkers beats any fast rush the terran could do, and normally after 4-5 stalkers i stop and make mostly immortal+zealot and go for a fast collossi. the fast 2 gasses and no sentries gives lots of gas for a fast tech You will simply die to well-executed 3 rax (double tech lab + reactor) timing attack. Or fall behind.
i beat that all the time. but if you think you are right, you can feel free to 3rax me and i will show yo first hand how the fast void stops it
fast voidrays +gateway units is pretty good against 3rax. i get a full scout at 6 minutes with the voidray (before a 3rax can have stim) which lets me know its coming and i have plenty of time to prepare
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On August 11 2011 17:44 Fyzar wrote:
I didn't catch today's games. I guess YoDa 1/1/1'd Tassadar twice?
Poor Tassadar if so, held out of code S by it, and now again.
Also JYP nice! Didn't expect, can someone give me a rundown of those games? (Tassadar's & JYP's)
tassadar beat yoda straight up in game 1 on bel'shir. the next two games yoda did 111 and tassadar did phoenix chargelot blink stalker 4 gate off one base. he loses. next game, tassadar does void ray all in, yoda goes 111, tassadar loses.
JYP gets beat straight up on daybreak vs DRG game 1. tal'darim, game 2, DRG does 6pool. JYP luckily scouts first, builds cannon at his main, holds it, 3 gate expands. he does HT / DT drop, does a bit of damage to DRG's nat. same time DRG runs infestors to JYP's nat and throws down a shit ton of infested marines in an attempt to snipe the nexus - it fails since JYP just storms them. base trade scenario, DRG has a ton of broodlords, a few infestors and 3 drones mining at one of his bases while JYP has colossus, some stalkers, some voids. DRG loses a few infestors before the battle starts, voids clean up, JYP wins. game 3, metalopolis, cross positions, DRG takes gold nat. he expects a gateway timing attack to his gold so he goes hydra ling. JYP does 2 base colossus, melts DRG's forces and wins.
I hope that makes sense.
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On August 11 2011 17:48 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:44 susySquark wrote:On August 11 2011 17:42 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'd prefer they just nerf the all-in rather than any specific unit because as I see it ravens are still underused, and banshees are in a good place in all matchups outside this one all in. How can you nerf a push without nerfing the units in the push? On August 11 2011 17:44 Fyzar wrote:
I didn't catch today's games. I guess YoDa 1/1/1'd Tassadar twice?
Poor Tassadar if so, held out of code S by it, and now again.
Also JYP nice! Didn't expect, can someone give me a rundown of those games? (Tassadar's & JYP's) Tassadar won the first game with clearly superior play. Yoda 1-1-1's twice, with LOTS of mistakes. Tassadar makes a couple small mistakes, and loses twice. by making them better at a later time or compensate in another way make pdd researchable through armory, lower cost of the raven don't really see a problem with that
The Raven isn't an essential part of the 1/1/1, you could just add more banshees if PDD required an upgrade. If the 1/1/1 needs to be nerfed, it can't just be the raven being changed.
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On August 11 2011 17:49 Mike15xp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:46 mcc wrote:On August 11 2011 17:36 susySquark wrote:On August 11 2011 17:32 Itsmedudeman wrote:On August 11 2011 17:30 Sabu113 wrote:On August 11 2011 17:25 forsooth wrote:On August 11 2011 17:21 Sabu113 wrote:On August 11 2011 17:18 Obaten wrote:
How about making it so stalkers do instant damage instead of being blocked by PDD? Dark swarm is a great ability and Terrans might eventually have to dare i say it think about incorporating it into more builds. Kinda stupid ability if it doesn't stop stalker shots. edit: kinda interesting how expensive so many toss upgrades/spells are that come for free to terran. What do you mean? PDD may be free but stim, shield, concussive, cloak, and siege mode are not. Emp ~ Storm PDD Ok I was too hyperbolic still think those two are so good as to warrant upgrade status. Ravens feel underrated though I can understand as sufficient viking numbers can be built up without switching techlab with starport. PDD just naturally seems so good. I can't stop thinking about defilers. Actually while we're on ravens how do turrets compare with infested terrans? I don't think it's fair to compare ghosts to hts... like ever for anything.... ghosts are more expensive, come out of barracks, and can't also warp into archons. They're very different units and have different types of utility. Ghost - HT Raven - ....Mothership?!?! Clearly the counter is 1 base mothership to vortex the tanks. ... actually. How fast can you get carriers out? Would Carrier+zealot work? I uhm... dont even know what I'm saying anymore. Well, actually if you are blind countering like Tassadar, might as well try that. Mothership, carrier zelot might do something  meh too easy to scout xD fleet beacon can only mean one thing then they star making vikings and poop 
Of course you have to hide it, ideally in their natural, they won't check it as they have no use for it 
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On August 11 2011 17:46 Mike15xp wrote:
bitbybit should return to sc2 ... i feel like this is his thing
Haha this made me smile
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On August 11 2011 17:44 susySquark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:42 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'd prefer they just nerf the all-in rather than any specific unit because as I see it ravens are still underused, and banshees are in a good place in all matchups outside this one all in. How can you nerf a push without nerfing the units in the push? Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:44 Fyzar wrote:
I didn't catch today's games. I guess YoDa 1/1/1'd Tassadar twice?
Poor Tassadar if so, held out of code S by it, and now again.
Also JYP nice! Didn't expect, can someone give me a rundown of those games? (Tassadar's & JYP's) Tassadar won the first game with clearly superior play. Yoda 1-1-1's twice, with LOTS of mistakes. Tassadar makes a couple small mistakes, and loses twice.
I'm not sure that game 1 showed Tass as Superior, but rather that Yoda is much much worse. While its basically the same thing its important to note that Yoda's loss was mostly because he scouted very poorly and stutter stepped towards 5 colossi with no vikings.
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On August 11 2011 17:52 StaplerPhone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:48 Itsmedudeman wrote:On August 11 2011 17:44 susySquark wrote:On August 11 2011 17:42 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'd prefer they just nerf the all-in rather than any specific unit because as I see it ravens are still underused, and banshees are in a good place in all matchups outside this one all in. How can you nerf a push without nerfing the units in the push? On August 11 2011 17:44 Fyzar wrote:
I didn't catch today's games. I guess YoDa 1/1/1'd Tassadar twice?
Poor Tassadar if so, held out of code S by it, and now again.
Also JYP nice! Didn't expect, can someone give me a rundown of those games? (Tassadar's & JYP's) Tassadar won the first game with clearly superior play. Yoda 1-1-1's twice, with LOTS of mistakes. Tassadar makes a couple small mistakes, and loses twice. by making them better at a later time or compensate in another way make pdd researchable through armory, lower cost of the raven don't really see a problem with that The Raven isn't an essential part of the 1/1/1, you could just add more banshees if PDD required an upgrade. If the 1/1/1 needs to be nerfed, it can't just be the raven being changed.
Well the banshee is what makes the 1-1-1 work. Because of its insane dps, protoss has to get ample stalkers and/or phoenix to deal with it. Stalkers suck against every other unit in the comp, including PDD. This all-in changes the number of banshees based on scouting (or preference), which is why it's always a guess how many stalkers to make and an overall nightmare to hold.
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On August 11 2011 17:52 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:49 Mike15xp wrote:On August 11 2011 17:46 mcc wrote:On August 11 2011 17:36 susySquark wrote:On August 11 2011 17:32 Itsmedudeman wrote:On August 11 2011 17:30 Sabu113 wrote:On August 11 2011 17:25 forsooth wrote:On August 11 2011 17:21 Sabu113 wrote:On August 11 2011 17:18 Obaten wrote:
How about making it so stalkers do instant damage instead of being blocked by PDD? Dark swarm is a great ability and Terrans might eventually have to dare i say it think about incorporating it into more builds. Kinda stupid ability if it doesn't stop stalker shots. edit: kinda interesting how expensive so many toss upgrades/spells are that come for free to terran. What do you mean? PDD may be free but stim, shield, concussive, cloak, and siege mode are not. Emp ~ Storm PDD Ok I was too hyperbolic still think those two are so good as to warrant upgrade status. Ravens feel underrated though I can understand as sufficient viking numbers can be built up without switching techlab with starport. PDD just naturally seems so good. I can't stop thinking about defilers. Actually while we're on ravens how do turrets compare with infested terrans? I don't think it's fair to compare ghosts to hts... like ever for anything.... ghosts are more expensive, come out of barracks, and can't also warp into archons. They're very different units and have different types of utility. Ghost - HT Raven - ....Mothership?!?! Clearly the counter is 1 base mothership to vortex the tanks. ... actually. How fast can you get carriers out? Would Carrier+zealot work? I uhm... dont even know what I'm saying anymore. Well, actually if you are blind countering like Tassadar, might as well try that. Mothership, carrier zelot might do something meh too easy to scout xD fleet beacon can only mean one thing then they star making vikings and poop Of course you have to hide it, ideally in their natural, they won't check it as they have no use for it
Haha, I like that, would love to see a 1base carrier as a counter with proxy fleet beacon behind the minerals in the natural. Imagine how embarassed the poor random terran would be :D
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On August 11 2011 17:52 StaplerPhone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:48 Itsmedudeman wrote:On August 11 2011 17:44 susySquark wrote:On August 11 2011 17:42 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'd prefer they just nerf the all-in rather than any specific unit because as I see it ravens are still underused, and banshees are in a good place in all matchups outside this one all in. How can you nerf a push without nerfing the units in the push? On August 11 2011 17:44 Fyzar wrote:
I didn't catch today's games. I guess YoDa 1/1/1'd Tassadar twice?
Poor Tassadar if so, held out of code S by it, and now again.
Also JYP nice! Didn't expect, can someone give me a rundown of those games? (Tassadar's & JYP's) Tassadar won the first game with clearly superior play. Yoda 1-1-1's twice, with LOTS of mistakes. Tassadar makes a couple small mistakes, and loses twice. by making them better at a later time or compensate in another way make pdd researchable through armory, lower cost of the raven don't really see a problem with that The Raven isn't an essential part of the 1/1/1, you could just add more banshees if PDD required an upgrade. If the 1/1/1 needs to be nerfed, it can't just be the raven being changed.
yeah, i think it makes the most sense to nerf the banshee. maybe make it cost more gas. If that's the case, maybe the build requires more resource, maybe u can gas block, maybe you can scout if second gas needs to be taken much earlier.
I can't pretend like i know how much this would affect terran in all strats and matchups tho, i don't want the banshee to be useless
Edit: also possibly nerf the siege tanks, maybe prevent these stalemate situations coming up in tvt as well with that, but it seems pretty essential against zerg, so that probably wouldn't make a lot of sense.
i dono wtf they do
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I think making banshees do less damage vs armored units would fix 1-1-1. A lot of the potency of the push is from the huge DPS banshees do, and the fact that they do very well against stalkers even without cloak. You could make banshees do less vs armored so that stalkers beat them 1 on 1, but they'd still do well as a harass unit, two shotting workers and potentially cloaking etc. Wouldn't matter too much for TvZ or TvT either since banshees are primarily used as a harass unit to kill workers in those matchups.
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On August 11 2011 17:47 Fyzar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:44 susySquark wrote:On August 11 2011 17:42 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'd prefer they just nerf the all-in rather than any specific unit because as I see it ravens are still underused, and banshees are in a good place in all matchups outside this one all in. How can you nerf a push without nerfing the units in the push? On August 11 2011 17:44 Fyzar wrote:
I didn't catch today's games. I guess YoDa 1/1/1'd Tassadar twice?
Poor Tassadar if so, held out of code S by it, and now again.
Also JYP nice! Didn't expect, can someone give me a rundown of those games? (Tassadar's & JYP's) Tassadar won the first game with clearly superior play. Yoda 1-1-1's twice, with LOTS of mistakes. Tassadar makes a couple small mistakes, and loses twice. Ffs ;/. Too bad for Tassadar, he's unlucky as hell ;s. What about JYP v DRG?
First game of DRG JYP:
JYP goes for a wacky sentry drop with a void ray push at the front, FF's the ramp, and warps in the main, with DRG's army trapped in the natural. DRG holds the natural push, and his macro hatch in the main allows him to reinforce with enough units to clean up the main too. DRG comes out ahead overall after the dust clears and goes on to win in a more or less straightforward manner.
Game 2:
DRG 6 pools Taldarim, JYP goes forge first at natural's choke. He builds a pylon and cannon in his main to hold the 6 pool, sacs the forge and pylon by the nat. DRG backs off, expands, starts speed. As JYP adds gates/cyber, he drops a nexus, which gets forced to cancel by a round of speedlings from DRG. JYP builds up more units, and finally takes nat. Game goes into macromode, JYP goes HT/DT. High points - DT drop in main, forces drones to transfer to nat, met by storm drop at nat. Lots of backstabbing with DT's not caught by camera while main armies bounce around. DRG goes infestor brood, pushes out. JYP hits DRG's 4th base to draw army back, DRG comes back but its too late. DRG moves out to push again, JYP hits DRG's third in an attempt to pull the army back again. DRG just a+moves his broods at JYP's main and we go for base trade. JYP manages to double stargate voidray. After trashing DRG's main with his colossus stalker, he retreats to defend his main from the brood onslaught. DRG has nothing but an army and 3 drones. Infestors are only antiair, so even after JYP's main ground force dies, he manages to take out the infestors so the voids can clean up. DRG GG's.
Game 3:
Forge FE from JYP on metal, DRG goes gold first. JYP gets gate, scouts the gold, drop robo first thing after cyber. Wolf is confused. DRG uses gold base to push creep towards JYP's natural for a hydra timing push. JYP's fast colossuses is literally the only build DRGs hydra rush loses to, and he loses. JYP read DRG's build perfectly IMO.
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to the person who was discussing infested terran VS auto turret
auto turrets are much much much much better than infested terrans, however, the infestor is much better than the raven. chain fungals destroy workers and entire armies in a few casts, NP is boss mode, and to top it off infestors can spam a mini army for some energy
auto turret is better than infested terrans but comparing casters that needs to be the case
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On August 11 2011 17:52 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:49 Mike15xp wrote:On August 11 2011 17:46 mcc wrote:On August 11 2011 17:36 susySquark wrote:On August 11 2011 17:32 Itsmedudeman wrote:On August 11 2011 17:30 Sabu113 wrote:On August 11 2011 17:25 forsooth wrote:On August 11 2011 17:21 Sabu113 wrote:On August 11 2011 17:18 Obaten wrote:
How about making it so stalkers do instant damage instead of being blocked by PDD? Dark swarm is a great ability and Terrans might eventually have to dare i say it think about incorporating it into more builds. Kinda stupid ability if it doesn't stop stalker shots. edit: kinda interesting how expensive so many toss upgrades/spells are that come for free to terran. What do you mean? PDD may be free but stim, shield, concussive, cloak, and siege mode are not. Emp ~ Storm PDD Ok I was too hyperbolic still think those two are so good as to warrant upgrade status. Ravens feel underrated though I can understand as sufficient viking numbers can be built up without switching techlab with starport. PDD just naturally seems so good. I can't stop thinking about defilers. Actually while we're on ravens how do turrets compare with infested terrans? I don't think it's fair to compare ghosts to hts... like ever for anything.... ghosts are more expensive, come out of barracks, and can't also warp into archons. They're very different units and have different types of utility. Ghost - HT Raven - ....Mothership?!?! Clearly the counter is 1 base mothership to vortex the tanks. ... actually. How fast can you get carriers out? Would Carrier+zealot work? I uhm... dont even know what I'm saying anymore. Well, actually if you are blind countering like Tassadar, might as well try that. Mothership, carrier zelot might do something meh too easy to scout xD fleet beacon can only mean one thing then they star making vikings and poop Of course you have to hide it, ideally in their natural, they won't check it as they have no use for it
HAHAHA wp wp
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chargelot+phoenix? much flanks?
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On August 11 2011 17:58 Gondlem wrote:
I think making banshees do less damage vs armored units would fix 1-1-1.
After thinking about it, this does make surprisingly much sense. It wouldn't influence any other situation than the banshee vs stalker match-up. Marines are light, hydras are light, queens are psionic (yes, that's right), workers are light.
And it is pretty stupid that banshees nearly break even vs stalkers anyways, I mean they get stomped by marines hardcore, why should they be able to beat much more expensive stalkers?
Then again, this is not the place to throw wild balance suggestions around, I'm afraid....
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i dont think banshees should be nerfed vs armored. i know many terrans that use banshees to counter collossi. banshees take less damage from stalkers and are good against them, vikings arent good against stalkers
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On August 11 2011 18:00 Deshkar wrote:
chargelot+phoenix? much flanks?
Think of game 2. It sounds good but with tons of scvs buffering, zealots alone will have a hard time doing the required damage to kill 20+ scvs, 20+ marines, and all the tanks.
If you go Phoenix+Chargelot, you will harass with phoenix waiting for charge to finish. If you expand before charge finishes, you will die to the push. If you don't expand, then neither does terran, and he just makes a huge scv/marine/tank ball with some combination of raven/banshee/viking and kill you outright because chargelot (or even chargelot/sentry) off 1 base can't deal with this push. And 1-1-1 is most prevalent on small smaps, especially ones that are hard to flank in.
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On August 11 2011 18:04 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:58 Gondlem wrote:
I think making banshees do less damage vs armored units would fix 1-1-1. After thinking about it, this does make surprisingly much sense. It wouldn't influence any other situation than the banshee vs stalker match-up. Marines are light, hydras are light, queens are psionic (yes, that's right), workers are light. And it is pretty stupid that banshees nearly break even vs stalkers anyways, I mean they get stomped by marines hardcore, why should they be able to beat much more expensive stalkers? Then again, this is not the place to throw wild balance suggestions around, I'm afraid....
well, a banshee is more expensive than a stalker...
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same song again? ARGHHHHHH
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On August 11 2011 18:09 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 18:04 sleepingdog wrote:On August 11 2011 17:58 Gondlem wrote:
I think making banshees do less damage vs armored units would fix 1-1-1. After thinking about it, this does make surprisingly much sense. It wouldn't influence any other situation than the banshee vs stalker match-up. Marines are light, hydras are light, queens are psionic (yes, that's right), workers are light. And it is pretty stupid that banshees nearly break even vs stalkers anyways, I mean they get stomped by marines hardcore, why should they be able to beat much more expensive stalkers? Then again, this is not the place to throw wild balance suggestions around, I'm afraid.... well, a banshee is more expensive than a stalker...
It is also more expensive than a marine. Your point?
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EPT
