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On June 23 2011 21:30 hYdrA-MeNo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 21:24 drox22 wrote:On June 23 2011 21:19 Pajegetc wrote:On June 23 2011 21:15 hYdrA-MeNo wrote:On June 23 2011 21:10 drox22 wrote:On June 23 2011 21:06 tomatriedes wrote:On June 23 2011 21:02 FatalT wrote:
Korean terrans have been superior in multitasking and control, now that Korean zergs are catching up problems with zvt is starting 2 get obvious imo. Mutalingbling is awesome, infestor/bl is awesome.. so hard to play vs z now'a'days Dude, how many places in the last GSL semi-finals were filled by terrans? And who won the last MLG? Terran's doing more than fine at the moment. Hold on a second. 1 terran in the top8 of mlg 1 terran in the top8 of dreamhack Terran also had the lowest win percentage at MLG. Also the lowest win percentage in the NASL. And the reason terran was dominating the super tournament was because most players who participated were terran. Terran is not doing fine right now at all, Zerg is dominating the ZvT match up in pretty much every tournament. Yes ZERG is op -.- (not) Terrans are losing because all they want to do is a 2 rax bunker push which is so easy to deny without losing any drones so yes lets blame Zergs being OP not the fact that terrans are all doing the same thing when it clearly fails vs a great zerg....... Cause you have to put pressure on early or else they drone and own you. Every form of harass is completely figured out while any attack you might try to do, gets counterattacked, or mutas of gg destroy your whole base. Yeah that's the thing, over time zerg will get better and better at defending terran attacks and drops, etc... it's going to get harder and harder for terran to beat zerg, zerg if played right can be almost unbeatable, I can't say the same about terran or protoss, they are both very limited races, zerg just doesn't seem to have a limit. ' LOL we have limits its called our larva...... we make ONE mistake you win...... even with that huge ball of mutas marines can easly take hem out with one mistake.... if we miss a larva inject we can lose the game to a push. how are we not limited. if anything every race is limited to what the person can do DRG is a beast and outplayed MMA and now the game is imba lol
I don't wanna get into the balance discussion but that "one mistake make me lose" zerg chant is getting pretty old and can easily be used for terran and protoss too.
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It's funny how these LR threads always turn to shit after the matches are done.
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On June 23 2011 21:15 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 21:03 Qikz wrote:
Damn. DRG's mutalisks are really annoying.
I don't know what MMA could have done there. more turrets maybe? I can't think of any valid strat that can counter DRG's style as long as DRG doesn't make a big blunder. DRG seems to have early terran pressure figured out. He then gets a early 3rd up. The deciding point i think is here. If you can't kill his third and keep him from getting it, the game is pretty much over imo. He is just able to get so many Mutas with 3 bases that they can one shot turrets, or a random fly by the mineral line will kill 4-5 SCV's every time. The only thing that can really counter Mutas is Marines. Thors I feel they're too immobile, and can't mass produce fast enough. And to counter that, DRG just gets mass banes+lings, and trade army with the terran. Terran can't reproduce as fast as the Zerg, so DRG just slowly overwhelm the Terran at this point. But i'm no professional gamer so I'm sure one of them will eventually figure out a way to counter DRG's style eventually.
Hum, DRG doesn't take a quick 3rd, actually he takes the slowst 3rd of all zergs I watch. But he makes a very fast 3rd hatch in base. When he finally takes his 3rd, if he's at risk of losing it he just bring back his drones without losing them. And also he put spines.
The problem with what MMA did is that he pushed, knowing there is a big flock of mutas already, bringing everything. He had to keep a thor and some marines around it between his 3rd and main (but in his main) so he can defend mutas without crumbling like he did and stay stable.
Here he never stabilized against mutas, which is terrible (and it happens to me all the time, I hate mutas :D)
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On June 23 2011 21:26 drox22 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 21:23 hYdrA-MeNo wrote:On June 23 2011 21:18 drox22 wrote:On June 23 2011 21:15 hYdrA-MeNo wrote:On June 23 2011 21:10 drox22 wrote:On June 23 2011 21:06 tomatriedes wrote:On June 23 2011 21:02 FatalT wrote:
Korean terrans have been superior in multitasking and control, now that Korean zergs are catching up problems with zvt is starting 2 get obvious imo. Mutalingbling is awesome, infestor/bl is awesome.. so hard to play vs z now'a'days Dude, how many places in the last GSL semi-finals were filled by terrans? And who won the last MLG? Terran's doing more than fine at the moment. Hold on a second. 1 terran in the top8 of mlg 1 terran in the top8 of dreamhack Terran also had the lowest win percentage at MLG. Also the lowest win percentage in the NASL. And the reason terran was dominating the super tournament was because most players who participated were terran. Terran is not doing fine right now at all, Zerg is dominating the ZvT match up in pretty much every tournament. Yes ZERG is op -.- (not) Terrans are losing because all they want to do is a 2 rax bunker push which is so easy to deny without losing any drones so yes lets blame Zergs being OP not the fact that terrans are all doing the same thing when it clearly fails vs a great zerg....... So are you blaming terrans for pressure expand builds now aswell? it's the best thing you can do against zerg, if you don't pressure zerg you lose automatically. Im not blaming pressure builds im blaming it on terrans doing the same thing over and over and over again then complain that its imba not that weve(zergs) gotten so use to it that we like it when we see it because we know were going to come ahead ESPECIALLY if i kill your marines with my lings. You can still open reaper dual hellion 3 rax marine timing all of these are viable and good options but all terrans want to do the same thing over and over..... if i were to 14 hatch everygame why not 1 rax expand? into 2 base timing push So dont blame IMBA blame ur strategy because if you 15 hatch and I 1 rax expand there is no way that I'm going to win if you know when my timing push is coming. Hence why I said zerg is getting better and better at holding of timing attacks and pushes which in the future will make them almost unbeatable, trust me.
why would i trust you this game is out for less than a year and your crying over something that is probably bais.... and why cant you win? see our telling yourself its hopeless before the match begins and were imba....how about you use things like GHOST RAVENS ( imagen a good seeker missle hit..... mutas = owend.) so stop screaming imba and try new things thats all im saying you complaing about imba makes you look bad....
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On June 23 2011 21:29 cheesemaster wrote:
Im getting kind of sick of watching this abusive mass muta style zergs are leaning towards, its quite boring to watch, i was impressed by dong at first but now i see hes kind of a 1 trick pony, but terrans dont really have a good answer for it.
Like yoou never really have to engage directly with mutas they are faster than pretty much anything terran has and their is always gonna be holes somewhere in your base or your army positioning where they can do damage. With someone who has good muta control its pretty hard to stop =/
This. I wanna see at least some games where the terran corners mutas and really own them. Atm it's more or less only badly control mutas that die, nothing can catch up or really catch them.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
HAHAHAHA
I have Dongraegue and alicia on the team.
hahahaa
ow my good lord so gud.
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On June 23 2011 21:29 drox22 wrote:
No, but when 1 race has to constantly attack and the other race figures out how to defend all their timing attacks with taking minimal damage, over time the defending race will have a clear advantage because the attacking race will slowly run out of options.
How does that not make sense?
this is the stupidest thing I've read... ok well no I take it back, a lot of stupid things have been said in this thread
Do you even know how many different timings terrans have? Terrans are THE hardest race to scout properly as well.
Here's just SOME list of builds that terrans can do
banshee, 2 port banshee, cloaked banshee, 2 fact blue flame helions, 1 fact siege tank, some form of mass rax rush, 2 medivac rush, reactor helion into siege tank, and of course your standard siege tank marine push
and please to god if you say anything like scouting overlord... but yeah you're right, if a player has maphacks that would certainly be hard to deal with
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On June 23 2011 21:30 hYdrA-MeNo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 21:24 drox22 wrote:On June 23 2011 21:19 Pajegetc wrote:On June 23 2011 21:15 hYdrA-MeNo wrote:On June 23 2011 21:10 drox22 wrote:On June 23 2011 21:06 tomatriedes wrote:On June 23 2011 21:02 FatalT wrote:
Korean terrans have been superior in multitasking and control, now that Korean zergs are catching up problems with zvt is starting 2 get obvious imo. Mutalingbling is awesome, infestor/bl is awesome.. so hard to play vs z now'a'days Dude, how many places in the last GSL semi-finals were filled by terrans? And who won the last MLG? Terran's doing more than fine at the moment. Hold on a second. 1 terran in the top8 of mlg 1 terran in the top8 of dreamhack Terran also had the lowest win percentage at MLG. Also the lowest win percentage in the NASL. And the reason terran was dominating the super tournament was because most players who participated were terran. Terran is not doing fine right now at all, Zerg is dominating the ZvT match up in pretty much every tournament. Yes ZERG is op -.- (not) Terrans are losing because all they want to do is a 2 rax bunker push which is so easy to deny without losing any drones so yes lets blame Zergs being OP not the fact that terrans are all doing the same thing when it clearly fails vs a great zerg....... Cause you have to put pressure on early or else they drone and own you. Every form of harass is completely figured out while any attack you might try to do, gets counterattacked, or mutas of gg destroy your whole base. Yeah that's the thing, over time zerg will get better and better at defending terran attacks and drops, etc... it's going to get harder and harder for terran to beat zerg, zerg if played right can be almost unbeatable, I can't say the same about terran or protoss, they are both very limited races, zerg just doesn't seem to have a limit. ' LOL we have limits its called our larva...... we make ONE mistake you win...... even with that huge ball of mutas marines can easly take hem out with one mistake.... if we miss a larva inject we can lose the game to a push. how are we not limited. if anything every race is limited to what the person can do DRG is a beast and outplayed MMA and now the game is imba lol
build moar hatcheries? honestly late game i think most zergs have more larva then they know what to do with. not literally but there is a reason that zerg can remax instantly on 4 base with some macro hatch if they have the bank for it.
Also in the laate game in terms of drones in terms of army recreation it is the easiest to recover as zerg, so dont tell me 1 mistake and you lose the game, if your talking about early game, then its the same for all races in that aspect you lose your army in the early game your dead.
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On June 23 2011 21:30 snafoo wrote:It's kind of insane how people get after some people win a few games  Like Alicia winning a few games in Code A/GSTL and people started saying "HOLY SHIT THIS GUY IS THE BEST EVERRRRR" eg; beating Nestea and Losira in GSTL and everyone saying he has the best PvZ in the world when in reality they both basically killed themselves and PvZ is Alicia's weakest matchup by quite a margin.. Same thing with MMA, Bomber, DRG and a few others. They're obviously all very very good, but it's just kinda funny how crazy people go after only seeing relatively few games compared to players like Nestea/MC/MVP etc.
And also the people who whine about how overpowered the race that did best on the day is. I'm hoping that its just the same people and they just keep switching race to the one they whined about.
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you realize like every high ranked korean terran has insane apm and micro in order to deal with whatever zergs have to throw at them to counter marines, you talk about all these openers but pros aren't using them because in reality 2 rax bunker openers has always been the most effective opener because you're forcing zergs to get lings opposed to drones, the whole point of any terran opener in TvZ is forcing a zerg to stop making drones and making units instead, alot of these other openers in my eyes require mistakes made by zerg and if a zerg could easily poke and scout these (theres plenty of ways to scout a terran opener), hence why a terran is forced to think 2 rax is the best opener since it can't be initially scouted.
I think you should go PLAY TERRAN and play high rated zergs and deal with it. I'm currently race changing because TvZ is such a frustrating match up considering I don't see myself getting better at terran because I'm limited by my APM. I can't exactly pull 300 apm out of nowhere thus I rather play a race that requires less speed out of my micro -.-
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France12911 Posts
I really hope that we get to see Mvp and MKP against very good ZvTers (NesTea if he stop getting crushed by any sort of early pressure and DongRaeGu) to see how it has to be done.
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People should really go watch sCfou vs DRG if they missed it. That throws any balance whine out the window and complaints about "DRG style unbeatable". sC is the best TvZ player in Korea and not many zergs have an answer for his relentless aggressive style. As MVP said MONTHS ago the strength of T is making sure both players stay on no more than 3 bases so that the advantage of mules increase dramatically
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On June 23 2011 21:33 hYdrA-MeNo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 21:26 drox22 wrote:On June 23 2011 21:23 hYdrA-MeNo wrote:On June 23 2011 21:18 drox22 wrote:On June 23 2011 21:15 hYdrA-MeNo wrote:On June 23 2011 21:10 drox22 wrote:On June 23 2011 21:06 tomatriedes wrote:On June 23 2011 21:02 FatalT wrote:
Korean terrans have been superior in multitasking and control, now that Korean zergs are catching up problems with zvt is starting 2 get obvious imo. Mutalingbling is awesome, infestor/bl is awesome.. so hard to play vs z now'a'days Dude, how many places in the last GSL semi-finals were filled by terrans? And who won the last MLG? Terran's doing more than fine at the moment. Hold on a second. 1 terran in the top8 of mlg 1 terran in the top8 of dreamhack Terran also had the lowest win percentage at MLG. Also the lowest win percentage in the NASL. And the reason terran was dominating the super tournament was because most players who participated were terran. Terran is not doing fine right now at all, Zerg is dominating the ZvT match up in pretty much every tournament. Yes ZERG is op -.- (not) Terrans are losing because all they want to do is a 2 rax bunker push which is so easy to deny without losing any drones so yes lets blame Zergs being OP not the fact that terrans are all doing the same thing when it clearly fails vs a great zerg....... So are you blaming terrans for pressure expand builds now aswell? it's the best thing you can do against zerg, if you don't pressure zerg you lose automatically. Im not blaming pressure builds im blaming it on terrans doing the same thing over and over and over again then complain that its imba not that weve(zergs) gotten so use to it that we like it when we see it because we know were going to come ahead ESPECIALLY if i kill your marines with my lings. You can still open reaper dual hellion 3 rax marine timing all of these are viable and good options but all terrans want to do the same thing over and over..... if i were to 14 hatch everygame why not 1 rax expand? into 2 base timing push So dont blame IMBA blame ur strategy because if you 15 hatch and I 1 rax expand there is no way that I'm going to win if you know when my timing push is coming. Hence why I said zerg is getting better and better at holding of timing attacks and pushes which in the future will make them almost unbeatable, trust me. why would i trust you this game is out for less than a year and your crying over something that is probably bais.... and why cant you win? see our telling yourself its hopeless before the match begins and were imba....how about you use things like GHOST RAVENS ( imagen a good seeker missle hit..... mutas = owend.) so stop screaming imba and try new things thats all im saying you complaing about imba makes you look bad....
Not that I agree with the person you're arguing with, but Ravens are just terrible. People really need to stop saying, "Well why doesn't anyone use Ravens? Try them out!"
Guess what, Terrans already know where Ravens fit - they don't. They are entirely too expensive gas-wise, needing a Tech Lab on the Starport (meaning if you get one early it really hurts). Not only that, SM is a shitload of energy and it's a terrible spell. If you can't dodge a SM you are just microing absolutely horribly.
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On June 23 2011 21:18 Reasonable wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 21:14 drox22 wrote:On June 23 2011 21:12 Minaegi wrote:On June 23 2011 21:10 drox22 wrote:On June 23 2011 21:06 tomatriedes wrote:On June 23 2011 21:02 FatalT wrote:
Korean terrans have been superior in multitasking and control, now that Korean zergs are catching up problems with zvt is starting 2 get obvious imo. Mutalingbling is awesome, infestor/bl is awesome.. so hard to play vs z now'a'days Dude, how many places in the last GSL semi-finals were filled by terrans? And who won the last MLG? Terran's doing more than fine at the moment. Hold on a second. 1 terran in the top8 of mlg 1 terran in the top8 of dreamhack Terran also had the lowest win percentage at MLG. Also the lowest win percentage in the NASL. And the reason terran was dominating the super tournament was because most players who participated were terran. Terran is not doing fine right now at all, Zerg is dominating the ZvT match up in pretty much every tournament. Why are you trying to bring balance or metagame discussion into it. Stop citing statistics without also admitting that the quality of the terran players at those international events was MUCH lower. Bomber was the only really world class terran at any of those events (yes including MMA). Go watch sCfou v DRG from last weeks LG cinema 3d final to see that it actually still comes down to the best players or the least crucial mistakes winning. Yeah. Zerg gets dominated = imbalance Terran gets dominated = terran are just bad I'm not saying the matchup is imbalanced, just that Terran isn't doing fine against zerg at all. Pfft I'll tell you what, DRG style is so hard that if there were many people capable of pulling it off, GSLs would be all zergs. I'm telling you that because I do 10 mistakes a minute when I play it just because you have to do macro during micro, it's like a full time engagement that cannot end or you die.
I wish people would be more aware of this. Muta ling baneling vs terran isn't new. At all. But if the zerg player slips up with the mutas even once, or if they aren't active with them and gives the terran more breathing room than he should.... bam. Dead zerg. Flying your mutas around and take a couple unexpected thor hits? (Thors have almost as much range as your vision) You can lose like half your muta cloud in a blink of an eye. DRG narrowly avoided this several times in all 3 ZVTs today.
Not only that, but the number of these TVZs vs muta-ling that I chalk up to "tanks not sieged = gg" is pretty significant :|
I also think that terrans should start building more than like 1 turret per screen, seriously. That shit doesn't fly in BW, why do terrans expect it to in SC2? the pack of 11 mutas in BW will pick off your turrets quite happily. no shit that a pack of 24 is going to just dance all over your turrets (though without the baller moving shot BW micro that the pack of 11 has to take like 2 missile shots total)
I don't wanna get into the balance discussion but that "one mistake make me lose" zerg chant is getting pretty old and can easily be used for terran and protoss too.
Its true. Boxer lost entirely from failing to effectively deal with the counterattack. Ganzi lost from that ling counterattack early on where he lost the 2-3 BF hellions at home to a surround, and lost like 10 SCVs. Even with denying the zerg third, he never really got past "even" with DRG that game from that point on. (He was ahead, briefly, before that counter.)
Speedlings (and fast units in general) LOVE to punish mistakes, and any decent zerg player maximizes that mistake-punishing power.
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the only people who I think look worse than the people crying imba from these set of games are the people thinking it's imba and saying that terrans have to figure out something new to counter it
here's the counter - play better
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On June 23 2011 21:33 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 21:29 drox22 wrote:
No, but when 1 race has to constantly attack and the other race figures out how to defend all their timing attacks with taking minimal damage, over time the defending race will have a clear advantage because the attacking race will slowly run out of options.
How does that not make sense? this is the stupidest thing I've read... ok well no I take it back, a lot of stupid things have been said in this thread Do you even know how many different timings terrans have? Terrans are THE hardest race to scout properly as well. Here's just SOME list of builds that terrans can do banshee, 2 port banshee, cloaked banshee, 2 fact blue flame helions, 1 fact siege tank, some form of mass rax rush, 2 medivac rush, reactor helion into siege tank, and of course your standard siege tank marine push and please to god if you say anything like scouting overlord... but yeah you're right, if a player has maphacks that would certainly be hard to deal with
And by time, zergs will get better and better at holding off these rushes and timing attacks and once any zerg reaches a level where he can hold off these attacks with literally taking minimal damage it will make him almost unbeatable. And my point is that you can't say the same about protoss or terran, protoss and terran relies on the zerg making mistakes so that they can win the game, but if a zerg makes no mistake and neither does the protoss or terran the zerg will win because it's the defending race.
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On June 23 2011 21:05 Sleec wrote:
Where is Tastosis...Wolf just said he will be casting tomorrow?
In cambodia.
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On June 23 2011 21:34 trancey wrote:
you realize like every high ranked korean terran has insane apm and micro in order to deal with whatever zergs have to throw at them to counter marines, you talk about all these openers but pros aren't using them because in reality 2 rax bunker openers has always been the most effective opener because you're forcing zergs to get lings opposed to drones, the whole point of any terran opener in TvZ is forcing a zerg to stop making drones and making units instead, alot of these other openers in my eyes require mistakes made by zerg and if a zerg could easily poke and scout these (theres plenty of ways to scout a terran opener), hence why a terran is forced to think 2 rax is the best opener since it can't be initially scouted.
I think you should go PLAY TERRAN and play high rated zergs and deal with it. I'm currently race changing because TvZ is such a frustrating match up considering I don't see myself getting better at terran because I'm limited by my APM. I can't exactly pull 300 apm out of nowhere thus I rather play a race that requires less speed out of my micro -.-
So you would want zerg weaken to balance your game but put the korean T's at a huge advantage? seems that would kill sc2 as an esport...
AND Race changing would do almost nothing because ZvP can be argued as imba towards a good P (although im sure someone going to say PvZ is imba towards Z) but ask july and idra how the feel over it im sure theyll disagree lol :D
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Russian Federation823 Posts
On June 23 2011 21:31 ChickenLips wrote:
It's funny how these LR threads always turn to shit after the matches are done.
Not that they're not shitty inbetween.
Today we found out that Thors should actually kill off about 20 mutas, or else they're UP. Also reading terrible questions/advice regarding the pro-gamers who are playing ("why is Ganzi not dropping like MMA?")
I'd really like to know in what league those people are who are stuck in that stupid idea of counters and OP/UP units...
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On June 23 2011 21:38 drox22 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 21:33 Itsmedudeman wrote:On June 23 2011 21:29 drox22 wrote:
No, but when 1 race has to constantly attack and the other race figures out how to defend all their timing attacks with taking minimal damage, over time the defending race will have a clear advantage because the attacking race will slowly run out of options.
How does that not make sense? this is the stupidest thing I've read... ok well no I take it back, a lot of stupid things have been said in this thread Do you even know how many different timings terrans have? Terrans are THE hardest race to scout properly as well. Here's just SOME list of builds that terrans can do banshee, 2 port banshee, cloaked banshee, 2 fact blue flame helions, 1 fact siege tank, some form of mass rax rush, 2 medivac rush, reactor helion into siege tank, and of course your standard siege tank marine push and please to god if you say anything like scouting overlord... but yeah you're right, if a player has maphacks that would certainly be hard to deal with And by time, zergs will get better and better at holding off these rushes and timing attacks and once any zerg reaches a level where he can hold off these attacks with literally taking minimal damage it will make him almost unbeatable. And my point is that you can't say the same about protoss or terran, protoss and terran relies on the zerg making mistakes so that they can win the game, but if a zerg makes no mistake and neither does the protoss or terran the zerg will win because it's the defending race.
if a terran plays a perfect 2 port banshee that denies any scouting and micros the banshees perfectly then zerg can't win
there, I just proved your point wrong entirely
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EPT
