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And this tournament isn't about creating a network of tournaments that creates sustainable income for women. This is about getting more women involved in esports and starcraft 2 in general. And even if we one day have SC2 tournaments for women that have prize pools in the thousands, and sponsorships and teams... what is so wrong with that?
I mean all of that exists in CS. People want to watch it. Everyone wins. Why the hell do you have a problem with it?
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On June 10 2011 01:25 DoomsVille wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 01:03 Mordiford wrote:On June 10 2011 00:57 DamageControL wrote:On June 10 2011 00:49 Mordiford wrote:On June 09 2011 23:47 DamageControL wrote:On June 09 2011 03:26 LadyRevenge wrote:On June 09 2011 03:05 DamageControL wrote:On June 09 2011 02:57 LadyRevenge wrote:
I am confused as to why there must be a seperate tournament. Why can't women play with everyone else? Why does gender matter? I feel this promotes sexism and further implies that women can't compete with men. Women are allowed to compete in other tournaments, there is no need to increase the gender gap and imply that women do not have the potential to compete against men. Furthermore, if this tournament was to be taken seriously I feel the original post should have been more professional. I'll agree with the last part. For the first part: when there is a gender gap, we tend to create a separate league for the other gender. This is a trend not just in starcraft but in real sports as well. Everyone recognizes that women have the potential to compete against men but because I think there are real barriers to that happening (i.e. harassment, social discouragement) I don't see the problem with creating a separate league here. There ARE barriers they face that men do not. There are only the barriers we create for ourselves. There is no need to advertise that we are female. I am relatively sure no one really cares if I am female or not. It doesn't matter. My gender does not affect my gameplay. No they aren't. I wouldn't want to be in a community where I was sexually harassed. At the very least the increased stigma for a female playing a video game is real. Sure, guys might be seen as "nerdy" but I see gaming guys as generally more mainstream than gaming girls. At the end of the day, I'm not sure why this is harmful to the cause of women in gaming. Let's say there are females out there who are incredibly good. This is a way they can showcase their skills to get picked up by pro teams. You may want everything to be "equal" with male gamers, but think of this as a sort of balance I guess--to make up for the higher barriers that women face. Even if it was harmful, though, I think the harm would be fairly minimal since this tourney is pretty small and casual. I really don't want to derail this thread, but since the roll has already started... whatever. I think it's slightly silly to say that a woman would get picked up by a pro team based on their performance in a female only tournament because there is no level of talent to judge against other than the other females they're playing against, if a team did pick them up, it would likely be for a female division which is kind of pointless at this point and would likely be for show. If a player gets picked up by a pro team, it'll be on their merit against actual pros, in tournaments where the requirement is to be good as opposed to being a specific gender. I have problem with these tournaments at this level, while the prize pools remain small but to say that it could be a platform for recruitment for a pro team doesn't make sense to me. On June 10 2011 00:40 LadyRevenge wrote:On June 09 2011 23:08 CheekyDuck wrote:On June 09 2011 23:04 LadyRevenge wrote:On June 09 2011 09:59 CheekyDuck wrote:On June 09 2011 03:41 vOdToasT wrote:On June 07 2011 09:46 CheekyDuck wrote:
[quote]
I thought so too, but i was told that would be too sexist. lol. You make a female only tournament and worry about sexism, lol. that was the joke =/ LadyRevenge: something is wrong with you. Thank you for proving how incredibly unprofessional you are. Sexism is not a joke and there is nothing wrong with me simply because of my opinion on this matter. my opinion is that your opinion is dumb. Your username is sexist btw and a joke. And you imply that you are more expensive than a mothership and therefore a whore. Let's keep it civil. Right, I didn't mean based on this tournament alone. Nor would female only competition be the only place a female could get exposure. However, let's keep in mind that this community is based, in large part, on invitations. Because of that the more exposure a player gets the better. Perhaps tournaments like this alone would do nothing but if a player gets noticed they could be seen by pro/semi-pro teams or smaller tournaments and get invited. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't, but I don't so how it would HURT the cause. If it's for the novelty of being female, that's wrong as well and I wouldn't support it. If it's on their skill that they get an invite to a bigger tournament, then it'll be on their performance in an existing open tournament where they compete with no restrictions based on gender, anything else would be quite wrong in my opinion, a girl getting invited to an invitational tournament based on their results in a female only tournament over any top-mid-low tier pro would be really stupid in my opinion. Like I said, these tournaments can encourage women to get involved, which is fine, but I'm starting to slowly see the prize pools in some of these increase and that's something I don't want to see. It's a good tool to push women into the scene, but you shouldn't be able to sustain yourself as a competitor playing against limited opponents when there's no reason to believe you have any physical limitations barring you from competing against a wider array of opponents. So in other words, organizations like FIBA, the swedish elite league for hockey or MLS shouldn't exist because there are no physical limitations preventing those players from playing in the NBA, NHL or premier league?
There are physical limitations for those sports, I thought these comparisons had been put down, it's not the same.
On June 10 2011 01:25 Chill wrote:
This is no different than a gold-only tournament, German-only tournament or Zerg-only tournament. It's just a fun event. Not every event has to be all-enclusive or playing at the highest level.
I don't think so Chill, because being a woman doesn't dictate you to a specific skill level like "Gold-only", it doesn't dictate you to a specific race like "Zerg only" and it doesn't dictate you to a specific region like "German-only". Now, for those individually, a Gold-only tournament would generally be more of a for-fun tournament and boast very small prize pools, which I'm fine with for women's tournaments, if they're around or under a $200-300 prize pool, I don't think it's a big deal.
For a Zerg-only tournament, everyone is on the same playing field and the goal is to find the best Zerg which is actually a title that only restricts the other races because they aren't relevant to the point of the tournament, but once again, it won't have any substantial prize pool.
Now, a german-only tournament is slightly different, because it's region dependent, just like a NA tournament would be region dependent with the point being to find the best player in a region which can be helpful for regional teams and for international events like WCG where you select representatives from each nation.
I don't see these tournaments as having any real purpose as an actual competitive medium other than to get more women involved in competitive play, and that's fine, this tournament specifically is fine, but I don't think it's fair to make those comparisons because it's not the same.
On June 10 2011 01:28 DoomsVille wrote:
And this tournament isn't about creating a network of tournaments that creates sustainable income for women. This is about getting more women involved in esports and starcraft 2 in general. And even if we one day have SC2 tournaments for women that have prize pools in the thousands, and sponsorships and teams... what is so wrong with that?
I mean all of that exists in CS. People want to watch it. Everyone wins. Why the hell do you have a problem with it?
Just going to add, there's nothing wrong with THIS. This is about getting more women involved in eSports and Starcraft 2 in general.
The other part is "wrong" because it would create sustainable income on the merit of being a female in a game where there are no notable physical limitations. This issue has been mirrored in Poker, with men entering women's poker tournaments and the same "It's to get more women involved" being raised.
In the end, the issue would be that women would be able to make more money by being the best than men, but they'd have no reason to be the best while male players would. You'd get into a situation where you'd have to be much better than your female counterpart at Starcraft to make equal money, which is the only thing I see as problematic.
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Can't understand how people can get so riled up about something that doesn't actually affect them at all.
Best of luck with the tournament! I may tune in but 10am is kinda brutal for me so we'll see. :/
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On June 10 2011 01:03 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 00:57 DamageControL wrote:On June 10 2011 00:49 Mordiford wrote:On June 09 2011 23:47 DamageControL wrote:On June 09 2011 03:26 LadyRevenge wrote:On June 09 2011 03:05 DamageControL wrote:On June 09 2011 02:57 LadyRevenge wrote:
I am confused as to why there must be a seperate tournament. Why can't women play with everyone else? Why does gender matter? I feel this promotes sexism and further implies that women can't compete with men. Women are allowed to compete in other tournaments, there is no need to increase the gender gap and imply that women do not have the potential to compete against men. Furthermore, if this tournament was to be taken seriously I feel the original post should have been more professional. I'll agree with the last part. For the first part: when there is a gender gap, we tend to create a separate league for the other gender. This is a trend not just in starcraft but in real sports as well. Everyone recognizes that women have the potential to compete against men but because I think there are real barriers to that happening (i.e. harassment, social discouragement) I don't see the problem with creating a separate league here. There ARE barriers they face that men do not. There are only the barriers we create for ourselves. There is no need to advertise that we are female. I am relatively sure no one really cares if I am female or not. It doesn't matter. My gender does not affect my gameplay. No they aren't. I wouldn't want to be in a community where I was sexually harassed. At the very least the increased stigma for a female playing a video game is real. Sure, guys might be seen as "nerdy" but I see gaming guys as generally more mainstream than gaming girls. At the end of the day, I'm not sure why this is harmful to the cause of women in gaming. Let's say there are females out there who are incredibly good. This is a way they can showcase their skills to get picked up by pro teams. You may want everything to be "equal" with male gamers, but think of this as a sort of balance I guess--to make up for the higher barriers that women face. Even if it was harmful, though, I think the harm would be fairly minimal since this tourney is pretty small and casual. I really don't want to derail this thread, but since the roll has already started... whatever. I think it's slightly silly to say that a woman would get picked up by a pro team based on their performance in a female only tournament because there is no level of talent to judge against other than the other females they're playing against, if a team did pick them up, it would likely be for a female division which is kind of pointless at this point and would likely be for show. If a player gets picked up by a pro team, it'll be on their merit against actual pros, in tournaments where the requirement is to be good as opposed to being a specific gender. I have problem with these tournaments at this level, while the prize pools remain small but to say that it could be a platform for recruitment for a pro team doesn't make sense to me. On June 10 2011 00:40 LadyRevenge wrote:On June 09 2011 23:08 CheekyDuck wrote:On June 09 2011 23:04 LadyRevenge wrote:On June 09 2011 09:59 CheekyDuck wrote:On June 09 2011 03:41 vOdToasT wrote:On June 07 2011 09:46 CheekyDuck wrote:On June 07 2011 09:43 StarStruck wrote:
Cheeky I think the trophy should be pink. O; I thought so too, but i was told that would be too sexist. lol. You make a female only tournament and worry about sexism, lol. that was the joke =/ LadyRevenge: something is wrong with you. Thank you for proving how incredibly unprofessional you are. Sexism is not a joke and there is nothing wrong with me simply because of my opinion on this matter. my opinion is that your opinion is dumb. Your username is sexist btw and a joke. And you imply that you are more expensive than a mothership and therefore a whore. Let's keep it civil. Right, I didn't mean based on this tournament alone. Nor would female only competition be the only place a female could get exposure. However, let's keep in mind that this community is based, in large part, on invitations. Because of that the more exposure a player gets the better. Perhaps tournaments like this alone would do nothing but if a player gets noticed they could be seen by pro/semi-pro teams or smaller tournaments and get invited. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't, but I don't so how it would HURT the cause. If it's for the novelty of being female, that's wrong as well and I wouldn't support it. If it's on their skill that they get an invite to a bigger tournament, then it'll be on their performance in an existing open tournament where they compete with no restrictions based on gender, anything else would be quite wrong in my opinion, a girl getting invited to an invitational tournament based on their results in a female only tournament over any top-mid-low tier pro would be really stupid in my opinion. Like I said, these tournaments can encourage women to get involved, which is fine, but I'm starting to slowly see the prize pools in some of these increase and that's something I don't want to see. It's a good tool to push women into the scene, but you shouldn't be able to sustain yourself as a competitor playing against limited opponents when there's no reason to believe you have any physical limitations barring you from competing against a wider array of opponents.
? This is a 50 tourney. I dunno, I haven't seen any huge problems.
I'm not sure how I feel about being able to sustain yourself, but I see these right now as a promotional sort of thing--like gold or diamond tourneys. It just encourages people to keep playing. In this case the targeted demographic is female.
Invites for females is wrong? How so? Let's say a female is high masters and is doing well in these events. I see no problem with her being picked over other high masters player for a low level invitational--not only would it likely be better promotion for the tournament, it would be beneficial female exposure. It's better, to me at least, than some masters player simply being friends with the tournament organizer.
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On June 10 2011 01:36 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 01:25 DoomsVille wrote:On June 10 2011 01:03 Mordiford wrote:On June 10 2011 00:57 DamageControL wrote:On June 10 2011 00:49 Mordiford wrote:On June 09 2011 23:47 DamageControL wrote:On June 09 2011 03:26 LadyRevenge wrote:On June 09 2011 03:05 DamageControL wrote:On June 09 2011 02:57 LadyRevenge wrote:
I am confused as to why there must be a seperate tournament. Why can't women play with everyone else? Why does gender matter? I feel this promotes sexism and further implies that women can't compete with men. Women are allowed to compete in other tournaments, there is no need to increase the gender gap and imply that women do not have the potential to compete against men. Furthermore, if this tournament was to be taken seriously I feel the original post should have been more professional. I'll agree with the last part. For the first part: when there is a gender gap, we tend to create a separate league for the other gender. This is a trend not just in starcraft but in real sports as well. Everyone recognizes that women have the potential to compete against men but because I think there are real barriers to that happening (i.e. harassment, social discouragement) I don't see the problem with creating a separate league here. There ARE barriers they face that men do not. There are only the barriers we create for ourselves. There is no need to advertise that we are female. I am relatively sure no one really cares if I am female or not. It doesn't matter. My gender does not affect my gameplay. No they aren't. I wouldn't want to be in a community where I was sexually harassed. At the very least the increased stigma for a female playing a video game is real. Sure, guys might be seen as "nerdy" but I see gaming guys as generally more mainstream than gaming girls. At the end of the day, I'm not sure why this is harmful to the cause of women in gaming. Let's say there are females out there who are incredibly good. This is a way they can showcase their skills to get picked up by pro teams. You may want everything to be "equal" with male gamers, but think of this as a sort of balance I guess--to make up for the higher barriers that women face. Even if it was harmful, though, I think the harm would be fairly minimal since this tourney is pretty small and casual. I really don't want to derail this thread, but since the roll has already started... whatever. I think it's slightly silly to say that a woman would get picked up by a pro team based on their performance in a female only tournament because there is no level of talent to judge against other than the other females they're playing against, if a team did pick them up, it would likely be for a female division which is kind of pointless at this point and would likely be for show. If a player gets picked up by a pro team, it'll be on their merit against actual pros, in tournaments where the requirement is to be good as opposed to being a specific gender. I have problem with these tournaments at this level, while the prize pools remain small but to say that it could be a platform for recruitment for a pro team doesn't make sense to me. On June 10 2011 00:40 LadyRevenge wrote:On June 09 2011 23:08 CheekyDuck wrote:On June 09 2011 23:04 LadyRevenge wrote:On June 09 2011 09:59 CheekyDuck wrote:On June 09 2011 03:41 vOdToasT wrote:
[quote]
You make a female only tournament and worry about sexism, lol.
that was the joke =/ LadyRevenge: something is wrong with you. Thank you for proving how incredibly unprofessional you are. Sexism is not a joke and there is nothing wrong with me simply because of my opinion on this matter. my opinion is that your opinion is dumb. Your username is sexist btw and a joke. And you imply that you are more expensive than a mothership and therefore a whore. Let's keep it civil. Right, I didn't mean based on this tournament alone. Nor would female only competition be the only place a female could get exposure. However, let's keep in mind that this community is based, in large part, on invitations. Because of that the more exposure a player gets the better. Perhaps tournaments like this alone would do nothing but if a player gets noticed they could be seen by pro/semi-pro teams or smaller tournaments and get invited. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't, but I don't so how it would HURT the cause. If it's for the novelty of being female, that's wrong as well and I wouldn't support it. If it's on their skill that they get an invite to a bigger tournament, then it'll be on their performance in an existing open tournament where they compete with no restrictions based on gender, anything else would be quite wrong in my opinion, a girl getting invited to an invitational tournament based on their results in a female only tournament over any top-mid-low tier pro would be really stupid in my opinion. Like I said, these tournaments can encourage women to get involved, which is fine, but I'm starting to slowly see the prize pools in some of these increase and that's something I don't want to see. It's a good tool to push women into the scene, but you shouldn't be able to sustain yourself as a competitor playing against limited opponents when there's no reason to believe you have any physical limitations barring you from competing against a wider array of opponents. So in other words, organizations like FIBA, the swedish elite league for hockey or MLS shouldn't exist because there are no physical limitations preventing those players from playing in the NBA, NHL or premier league? There are physical limitations for those sports, I thought these comparisons had been put down, it's not the same. Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 01:25 Chill wrote:
This is no different than a gold-only tournament, German-only tournament or Zerg-only tournament. It's just a fun event. Not every event has to be all-enclusive or playing at the highest level. I don't think so Chill, because being a woman doesn't dictate you to a specific skill level like "Gold-only", it doesn't dictate you to a specific race like "Zerg only" and it doesn't dictate you to a specific region like "German-only". Now, for those individually, a Gold-only tournament would generally be more of a for-fun tournament and boast very small prize pools, which I'm fine with for women's tournaments, if they're around or under a $200-300 prize pool, I don't think it's a big deal. For a Zerg-only tournament, everyone is on the same playing field and the goal is to find the best Zerg which is actually a title that only restricts the other races because they aren't relevant to the point of the tournament, but once again, it won't have any substantial prize pool. Now, a german-only tournament is slightly different, because it's region dependent, just like a NA tournament would be region dependent with the point being to find the best player in a region which can be helpful for regional teams and for international events like WCG where you select representatives from each nation. I don't see these tournaments as having any real purpose as an actual competitive medium other than to get more women involved in competitive play, and that's fine, this tournament specifically is fine, but I don't think it's fair to make those comparisons because it's not the same.
a) You're telling me there are 0 physical limitations to getting better in SC2? You're telling me handspeed is irrelevant? You're telling me hand-eye coordination is irrevelant? You can't just become the best player in the world by training hard. You also have to be physically capable of it. I will never have 200+ apm... my hands just can't move that fast. Fact is, there are physical limitations in SC2 just like with any other sport. Should there not be different chess leagues around the world because there are no physical limitations?
b) Your argument about why german-only competitions are ok and female-only competitions aren't is completely illogical. And no, it isn't because I don't comprehend. The ESL doesn't run german-only tournaments because they want to find a player for WCG or because they are trying to help regional teams. They do it because there is a market for it (the german people). And if there is one day a market for female-only tournaments, then there is absolutely no reason they shouldn't exist. Its an "everyone wins" situation.
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On June 10 2011 01:48 DoomsVille wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 01:36 Mordiford wrote:On June 10 2011 01:25 DoomsVille wrote:On June 10 2011 01:03 Mordiford wrote:On June 10 2011 00:57 DamageControL wrote:On June 10 2011 00:49 Mordiford wrote:On June 09 2011 23:47 DamageControL wrote:On June 09 2011 03:26 LadyRevenge wrote:On June 09 2011 03:05 DamageControL wrote:On June 09 2011 02:57 LadyRevenge wrote:
I am confused as to why there must be a seperate tournament. Why can't women play with everyone else? Why does gender matter? I feel this promotes sexism and further implies that women can't compete with men. Women are allowed to compete in other tournaments, there is no need to increase the gender gap and imply that women do not have the potential to compete against men. Furthermore, if this tournament was to be taken seriously I feel the original post should have been more professional. I'll agree with the last part. For the first part: when there is a gender gap, we tend to create a separate league for the other gender. This is a trend not just in starcraft but in real sports as well. Everyone recognizes that women have the potential to compete against men but because I think there are real barriers to that happening (i.e. harassment, social discouragement) I don't see the problem with creating a separate league here. There ARE barriers they face that men do not. There are only the barriers we create for ourselves. There is no need to advertise that we are female. I am relatively sure no one really cares if I am female or not. It doesn't matter. My gender does not affect my gameplay. No they aren't. I wouldn't want to be in a community where I was sexually harassed. At the very least the increased stigma for a female playing a video game is real. Sure, guys might be seen as "nerdy" but I see gaming guys as generally more mainstream than gaming girls. At the end of the day, I'm not sure why this is harmful to the cause of women in gaming. Let's say there are females out there who are incredibly good. This is a way they can showcase their skills to get picked up by pro teams. You may want everything to be "equal" with male gamers, but think of this as a sort of balance I guess--to make up for the higher barriers that women face. Even if it was harmful, though, I think the harm would be fairly minimal since this tourney is pretty small and casual. I really don't want to derail this thread, but since the roll has already started... whatever. I think it's slightly silly to say that a woman would get picked up by a pro team based on their performance in a female only tournament because there is no level of talent to judge against other than the other females they're playing against, if a team did pick them up, it would likely be for a female division which is kind of pointless at this point and would likely be for show. If a player gets picked up by a pro team, it'll be on their merit against actual pros, in tournaments where the requirement is to be good as opposed to being a specific gender. I have problem with these tournaments at this level, while the prize pools remain small but to say that it could be a platform for recruitment for a pro team doesn't make sense to me. On June 10 2011 00:40 LadyRevenge wrote:On June 09 2011 23:08 CheekyDuck wrote:On June 09 2011 23:04 LadyRevenge wrote:On June 09 2011 09:59 CheekyDuck wrote:
[quote]
that was the joke =/
LadyRevenge: something is wrong with you. Thank you for proving how incredibly unprofessional you are. Sexism is not a joke and there is nothing wrong with me simply because of my opinion on this matter. my opinion is that your opinion is dumb. Your username is sexist btw and a joke. And you imply that you are more expensive than a mothership and therefore a whore. Let's keep it civil. Right, I didn't mean based on this tournament alone. Nor would female only competition be the only place a female could get exposure. However, let's keep in mind that this community is based, in large part, on invitations. Because of that the more exposure a player gets the better. Perhaps tournaments like this alone would do nothing but if a player gets noticed they could be seen by pro/semi-pro teams or smaller tournaments and get invited. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't, but I don't so how it would HURT the cause. If it's for the novelty of being female, that's wrong as well and I wouldn't support it. If it's on their skill that they get an invite to a bigger tournament, then it'll be on their performance in an existing open tournament where they compete with no restrictions based on gender, anything else would be quite wrong in my opinion, a girl getting invited to an invitational tournament based on their results in a female only tournament over any top-mid-low tier pro would be really stupid in my opinion. Like I said, these tournaments can encourage women to get involved, which is fine, but I'm starting to slowly see the prize pools in some of these increase and that's something I don't want to see. It's a good tool to push women into the scene, but you shouldn't be able to sustain yourself as a competitor playing against limited opponents when there's no reason to believe you have any physical limitations barring you from competing against a wider array of opponents. So in other words, organizations like FIBA, the swedish elite league for hockey or MLS shouldn't exist because there are no physical limitations preventing those players from playing in the NBA, NHL or premier league? There are physical limitations for those sports, I thought these comparisons had been put down, it's not the same. On June 10 2011 01:25 Chill wrote:
This is no different than a gold-only tournament, German-only tournament or Zerg-only tournament. It's just a fun event. Not every event has to be all-enclusive or playing at the highest level. I don't think so Chill, because being a woman doesn't dictate you to a specific skill level like "Gold-only", it doesn't dictate you to a specific race like "Zerg only" and it doesn't dictate you to a specific region like "German-only". Now, for those individually, a Gold-only tournament would generally be more of a for-fun tournament and boast very small prize pools, which I'm fine with for women's tournaments, if they're around or under a $200-300 prize pool, I don't think it's a big deal. For a Zerg-only tournament, everyone is on the same playing field and the goal is to find the best Zerg which is actually a title that only restricts the other races because they aren't relevant to the point of the tournament, but once again, it won't have any substantial prize pool. Now, a german-only tournament is slightly different, because it's region dependent, just like a NA tournament would be region dependent with the point being to find the best player in a region which can be helpful for regional teams and for international events like WCG where you select representatives from each nation. I don't see these tournaments as having any real purpose as an actual competitive medium other than to get more women involved in competitive play, and that's fine, this tournament specifically is fine, but I don't think it's fair to make those comparisons because it's not the same. a) You're telling me there are 0 physical limitations to getting better in SC2? You're telling me handspeed is irrelevant? You're telling me hand-eye coordination is irrevelant? You can't just become the best player in the world by training hard. You also have to be physically capable of it. I will never have 200+ apm... my hands just can't move that fast. Fact is, there are physical limitations in SC2 just like with any other sport. Should there not be different chess leagues around the world because there are no physical limitations? b) Your argument about why german-only competitions are ok and female-only competitions aren't is completely illogical. And no, it isn't because I don't comprehend. The ESL doesn't run german-only tournaments because they want to find a player for WCG or because they are trying to help regional teams. They do it because there is a market for it (the german people). And if there is one day a market for female-only tournaments, then there is absolutely no reason they shouldn't exist. Its an "everyone wins" situation.
Just to clarify, he meant physical limitation between genders, not that the sport itself had a physical requirement as a whole. And not being able to hold 200 apm means you probably have some sort of medical problem, not that you just simply aren't good enough. Can we take this discussion somewhere else?
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On June 10 2011 01:45 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 01:03 Mordiford wrote:On June 10 2011 00:57 DamageControL wrote:On June 10 2011 00:49 Mordiford wrote:On June 09 2011 23:47 DamageControL wrote:On June 09 2011 03:26 LadyRevenge wrote:On June 09 2011 03:05 DamageControL wrote:On June 09 2011 02:57 LadyRevenge wrote:
I am confused as to why there must be a seperate tournament. Why can't women play with everyone else? Why does gender matter? I feel this promotes sexism and further implies that women can't compete with men. Women are allowed to compete in other tournaments, there is no need to increase the gender gap and imply that women do not have the potential to compete against men. Furthermore, if this tournament was to be taken seriously I feel the original post should have been more professional. I'll agree with the last part. For the first part: when there is a gender gap, we tend to create a separate league for the other gender. This is a trend not just in starcraft but in real sports as well. Everyone recognizes that women have the potential to compete against men but because I think there are real barriers to that happening (i.e. harassment, social discouragement) I don't see the problem with creating a separate league here. There ARE barriers they face that men do not. There are only the barriers we create for ourselves. There is no need to advertise that we are female. I am relatively sure no one really cares if I am female or not. It doesn't matter. My gender does not affect my gameplay. No they aren't. I wouldn't want to be in a community where I was sexually harassed. At the very least the increased stigma for a female playing a video game is real. Sure, guys might be seen as "nerdy" but I see gaming guys as generally more mainstream than gaming girls. At the end of the day, I'm not sure why this is harmful to the cause of women in gaming. Let's say there are females out there who are incredibly good. This is a way they can showcase their skills to get picked up by pro teams. You may want everything to be "equal" with male gamers, but think of this as a sort of balance I guess--to make up for the higher barriers that women face. Even if it was harmful, though, I think the harm would be fairly minimal since this tourney is pretty small and casual. I really don't want to derail this thread, but since the roll has already started... whatever. I think it's slightly silly to say that a woman would get picked up by a pro team based on their performance in a female only tournament because there is no level of talent to judge against other than the other females they're playing against, if a team did pick them up, it would likely be for a female division which is kind of pointless at this point and would likely be for show. If a player gets picked up by a pro team, it'll be on their merit against actual pros, in tournaments where the requirement is to be good as opposed to being a specific gender. I have problem with these tournaments at this level, while the prize pools remain small but to say that it could be a platform for recruitment for a pro team doesn't make sense to me. On June 10 2011 00:40 LadyRevenge wrote:On June 09 2011 23:08 CheekyDuck wrote:On June 09 2011 23:04 LadyRevenge wrote:On June 09 2011 09:59 CheekyDuck wrote:On June 09 2011 03:41 vOdToasT wrote:On June 07 2011 09:46 CheekyDuck wrote:
[quote]
I thought so too, but i was told that would be too sexist. lol. You make a female only tournament and worry about sexism, lol. that was the joke =/ LadyRevenge: something is wrong with you. Thank you for proving how incredibly unprofessional you are. Sexism is not a joke and there is nothing wrong with me simply because of my opinion on this matter. my opinion is that your opinion is dumb. Your username is sexist btw and a joke. And you imply that you are more expensive than a mothership and therefore a whore. Let's keep it civil. Right, I didn't mean based on this tournament alone. Nor would female only competition be the only place a female could get exposure. However, let's keep in mind that this community is based, in large part, on invitations. Because of that the more exposure a player gets the better. Perhaps tournaments like this alone would do nothing but if a player gets noticed they could be seen by pro/semi-pro teams or smaller tournaments and get invited. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't, but I don't so how it would HURT the cause. If it's for the novelty of being female, that's wrong as well and I wouldn't support it. If it's on their skill that they get an invite to a bigger tournament, then it'll be on their performance in an existing open tournament where they compete with no restrictions based on gender, anything else would be quite wrong in my opinion, a girl getting invited to an invitational tournament based on their results in a female only tournament over any top-mid-low tier pro would be really stupid in my opinion. Like I said, these tournaments can encourage women to get involved, which is fine, but I'm starting to slowly see the prize pools in some of these increase and that's something I don't want to see. It's a good tool to push women into the scene, but you shouldn't be able to sustain yourself as a competitor playing against limited opponents when there's no reason to believe you have any physical limitations barring you from competing against a wider array of opponents. ? This is a 50 tourney. I dunno, I haven't seen any huge problems. I'm not sure how I feel about being able to sustain yourself, but I see these right now as a promotional sort of thing--like gold or diamond tourneys. It just encourages people to keep playing. In this case the targeted demographic is female. Invites for females is wrong? How so? Let's say a female is high masters and is doing well in these events. I see no problem with her being picked over other high masters player for a low level invitational--not only would it likely be better promotion for the tournament, it would be beneficial female exposure. It's better, to me at least, than some masters player simply being friends with the tournament organizer.
I've said numerous times, very specifically, that I'm fine with this tournament. I am fine with these tournaments in general right now, but I have a lot of respect for players like Megumi who don't like them or competing in them.
As for the other point, something being beneficial for female exposure should be based on their merit as a player, not because they're a female, if some Masters player gets invited because they're the friend of the tournament organizer, that's wrong too, this is why I generally don't like invitational only, or invitational "mainly" tournaments.
If a female player has never competed in an open tournament, then I'd be kind of reluctant to think it's fair to invite them based on performance in a female only tournament in comparison to someone who posts somewhat decent results in open tournaments because there is no point of comparison. If they both have competed in open tournaments and posted similar results in open tournaments, that I'd be fine with either pick. More specifically, the high masters guy couldn't post the same results in the tournaments she played it, but she could have done the same in the tournaments he played in based on her merit as a player.
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Calgary26001 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:36 Mordiford wrote:
I don't see these tournaments as having any real purpose as an actual competitive medium other than to get more women involved in competitive play, and that's fine, this tournament specifically is fine, but I don't think it's fair to make those comparisons because it's not the same.
You're right, it's not identical. But it's close enough so who cares. It's a fun tournament, this isn't GSL or something.
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On June 10 2011 01:54 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 01:36 Mordiford wrote:
I don't see these tournaments as having any real purpose as an actual competitive medium other than to get more women involved in competitive play, and that's fine, this tournament specifically is fine, but I don't think it's fair to make those comparisons because it's not the same. You're right, it's not identical. But it's close enough so who cares. It's a fun tournament, this isn't GSL or something.
I agree with you!
I don't know why this is an issue, I've said this tournament is fine and dandy...
Because it's not the GSL or something, I've only responded to the other guy in saying that anything close to the GSL for women would be problematic.
:/
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On June 10 2011 01:51 Odal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 01:48 DoomsVille wrote:On June 10 2011 01:36 Mordiford wrote:On June 10 2011 01:25 DoomsVille wrote:On June 10 2011 01:03 Mordiford wrote:On June 10 2011 00:57 DamageControL wrote:On June 10 2011 00:49 Mordiford wrote:On June 09 2011 23:47 DamageControL wrote:On June 09 2011 03:26 LadyRevenge wrote:On June 09 2011 03:05 DamageControL wrote:
[quote]
I'll agree with the last part.
For the first part: when there is a gender gap, we tend to create a separate league for the other gender. This is a trend not just in starcraft but in real sports as well. Everyone recognizes that women have the potential to compete against men but because I think there are real barriers to that happening (i.e. harassment, social discouragement) I don't see the problem with creating a separate league here. There ARE barriers they face that men do not. There are only the barriers we create for ourselves. There is no need to advertise that we are female. I am relatively sure no one really cares if I am female or not. It doesn't matter. My gender does not affect my gameplay. No they aren't. I wouldn't want to be in a community where I was sexually harassed. At the very least the increased stigma for a female playing a video game is real. Sure, guys might be seen as "nerdy" but I see gaming guys as generally more mainstream than gaming girls. At the end of the day, I'm not sure why this is harmful to the cause of women in gaming. Let's say there are females out there who are incredibly good. This is a way they can showcase their skills to get picked up by pro teams. You may want everything to be "equal" with male gamers, but think of this as a sort of balance I guess--to make up for the higher barriers that women face. Even if it was harmful, though, I think the harm would be fairly minimal since this tourney is pretty small and casual. I really don't want to derail this thread, but since the roll has already started... whatever. I think it's slightly silly to say that a woman would get picked up by a pro team based on their performance in a female only tournament because there is no level of talent to judge against other than the other females they're playing against, if a team did pick them up, it would likely be for a female division which is kind of pointless at this point and would likely be for show. If a player gets picked up by a pro team, it'll be on their merit against actual pros, in tournaments where the requirement is to be good as opposed to being a specific gender. I have problem with these tournaments at this level, while the prize pools remain small but to say that it could be a platform for recruitment for a pro team doesn't make sense to me. On June 10 2011 00:40 LadyRevenge wrote:On June 09 2011 23:08 CheekyDuck wrote:On June 09 2011 23:04 LadyRevenge wrote:
[quote]
Thank you for proving how incredibly unprofessional you are. Sexism is not a joke and there is nothing wrong with me simply because of my opinion on this matter. my opinion is that your opinion is dumb. Your username is sexist btw and a joke. And you imply that you are more expensive than a mothership and therefore a whore. Let's keep it civil. Right, I didn't mean based on this tournament alone. Nor would female only competition be the only place a female could get exposure. However, let's keep in mind that this community is based, in large part, on invitations. Because of that the more exposure a player gets the better. Perhaps tournaments like this alone would do nothing but if a player gets noticed they could be seen by pro/semi-pro teams or smaller tournaments and get invited. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't, but I don't so how it would HURT the cause. If it's for the novelty of being female, that's wrong as well and I wouldn't support it. If it's on their skill that they get an invite to a bigger tournament, then it'll be on their performance in an existing open tournament where they compete with no restrictions based on gender, anything else would be quite wrong in my opinion, a girl getting invited to an invitational tournament based on their results in a female only tournament over any top-mid-low tier pro would be really stupid in my opinion. Like I said, these tournaments can encourage women to get involved, which is fine, but I'm starting to slowly see the prize pools in some of these increase and that's something I don't want to see. It's a good tool to push women into the scene, but you shouldn't be able to sustain yourself as a competitor playing against limited opponents when there's no reason to believe you have any physical limitations barring you from competing against a wider array of opponents. So in other words, organizations like FIBA, the swedish elite league for hockey or MLS shouldn't exist because there are no physical limitations preventing those players from playing in the NBA, NHL or premier league? There are physical limitations for those sports, I thought these comparisons had been put down, it's not the same. On June 10 2011 01:25 Chill wrote:
This is no different than a gold-only tournament, German-only tournament or Zerg-only tournament. It's just a fun event. Not every event has to be all-enclusive or playing at the highest level. I don't think so Chill, because being a woman doesn't dictate you to a specific skill level like "Gold-only", it doesn't dictate you to a specific race like "Zerg only" and it doesn't dictate you to a specific region like "German-only". Now, for those individually, a Gold-only tournament would generally be more of a for-fun tournament and boast very small prize pools, which I'm fine with for women's tournaments, if they're around or under a $200-300 prize pool, I don't think it's a big deal. For a Zerg-only tournament, everyone is on the same playing field and the goal is to find the best Zerg which is actually a title that only restricts the other races because they aren't relevant to the point of the tournament, but once again, it won't have any substantial prize pool. Now, a german-only tournament is slightly different, because it's region dependent, just like a NA tournament would be region dependent with the point being to find the best player in a region which can be helpful for regional teams and for international events like WCG where you select representatives from each nation. I don't see these tournaments as having any real purpose as an actual competitive medium other than to get more women involved in competitive play, and that's fine, this tournament specifically is fine, but I don't think it's fair to make those comparisons because it's not the same. a) You're telling me there are 0 physical limitations to getting better in SC2? You're telling me handspeed is irrelevant? You're telling me hand-eye coordination is irrevelant? You can't just become the best player in the world by training hard. You also have to be physically capable of it. I will never have 200+ apm... my hands just can't move that fast. Fact is, there are physical limitations in SC2 just like with any other sport. Should there not be different chess leagues around the world because there are no physical limitations? b) Your argument about why german-only competitions are ok and female-only competitions aren't is completely illogical. And no, it isn't because I don't comprehend. The ESL doesn't run german-only tournaments because they want to find a player for WCG or because they are trying to help regional teams. They do it because there is a market for it (the german people). And if there is one day a market for female-only tournaments, then there is absolutely no reason they shouldn't exist. Its an "everyone wins" situation. Just to clarify, he meant physical limitation between genders, not that the sport itself had a physical requirement as a whole. And not being able to hold 200 apm means you probably have some sort of medical problem, not that you just simply aren't good enough. Can we take this discussion somewhere else?
No he didn't. Re-read what he wrote. And I was exaggerating about the 200 apm.. I was just trying to point out that not everyone has the handspeed/accuracy to compete with the best of the best regardless of training (and this is a fact).
Anyways, yea we should end this discussion. This discussion has no place until some of the tournaments Mordiford doesn't agree with actually start to pop up.
I'm just going to end with, I hope this is a success and it leads to other bigger/more badass tournaments.
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On June 10 2011 02:01 DoomsVille wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 01:51 Odal wrote:On June 10 2011 01:48 DoomsVille wrote:On June 10 2011 01:36 Mordiford wrote:On June 10 2011 01:25 DoomsVille wrote:On June 10 2011 01:03 Mordiford wrote:On June 10 2011 00:57 DamageControL wrote:On June 10 2011 00:49 Mordiford wrote:On June 09 2011 23:47 DamageControL wrote:On June 09 2011 03:26 LadyRevenge wrote:
[quote]
There are only the barriers we create for ourselves. There is no need to advertise that we are female. I am relatively sure no one really cares if I am female or not. It doesn't matter. My gender does not affect my gameplay. No they aren't. I wouldn't want to be in a community where I was sexually harassed. At the very least the increased stigma for a female playing a video game is real. Sure, guys might be seen as "nerdy" but I see gaming guys as generally more mainstream than gaming girls. At the end of the day, I'm not sure why this is harmful to the cause of women in gaming. Let's say there are females out there who are incredibly good. This is a way they can showcase their skills to get picked up by pro teams. You may want everything to be "equal" with male gamers, but think of this as a sort of balance I guess--to make up for the higher barriers that women face. Even if it was harmful, though, I think the harm would be fairly minimal since this tourney is pretty small and casual. I really don't want to derail this thread, but since the roll has already started... whatever. I think it's slightly silly to say that a woman would get picked up by a pro team based on their performance in a female only tournament because there is no level of talent to judge against other than the other females they're playing against, if a team did pick them up, it would likely be for a female division which is kind of pointless at this point and would likely be for show. If a player gets picked up by a pro team, it'll be on their merit against actual pros, in tournaments where the requirement is to be good as opposed to being a specific gender. I have problem with these tournaments at this level, while the prize pools remain small but to say that it could be a platform for recruitment for a pro team doesn't make sense to me. On June 10 2011 00:40 LadyRevenge wrote:On June 09 2011 23:08 CheekyDuck wrote:
[quote]
my opinion is that your opinion is dumb. Your username is sexist btw and a joke. And you imply that you are more expensive than a mothership and therefore a whore. Let's keep it civil. Right, I didn't mean based on this tournament alone. Nor would female only competition be the only place a female could get exposure. However, let's keep in mind that this community is based, in large part, on invitations. Because of that the more exposure a player gets the better. Perhaps tournaments like this alone would do nothing but if a player gets noticed they could be seen by pro/semi-pro teams or smaller tournaments and get invited. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't, but I don't so how it would HURT the cause. If it's for the novelty of being female, that's wrong as well and I wouldn't support it. If it's on their skill that they get an invite to a bigger tournament, then it'll be on their performance in an existing open tournament where they compete with no restrictions based on gender, anything else would be quite wrong in my opinion, a girl getting invited to an invitational tournament based on their results in a female only tournament over any top-mid-low tier pro would be really stupid in my opinion. Like I said, these tournaments can encourage women to get involved, which is fine, but I'm starting to slowly see the prize pools in some of these increase and that's something I don't want to see. It's a good tool to push women into the scene, but you shouldn't be able to sustain yourself as a competitor playing against limited opponents when there's no reason to believe you have any physical limitations barring you from competing against a wider array of opponents. So in other words, organizations like FIBA, the swedish elite league for hockey or MLS shouldn't exist because there are no physical limitations preventing those players from playing in the NBA, NHL or premier league? There are physical limitations for those sports, I thought these comparisons had been put down, it's not the same. On June 10 2011 01:25 Chill wrote:
This is no different than a gold-only tournament, German-only tournament or Zerg-only tournament. It's just a fun event. Not every event has to be all-enclusive or playing at the highest level. I don't think so Chill, because being a woman doesn't dictate you to a specific skill level like "Gold-only", it doesn't dictate you to a specific race like "Zerg only" and it doesn't dictate you to a specific region like "German-only". Now, for those individually, a Gold-only tournament would generally be more of a for-fun tournament and boast very small prize pools, which I'm fine with for women's tournaments, if they're around or under a $200-300 prize pool, I don't think it's a big deal. For a Zerg-only tournament, everyone is on the same playing field and the goal is to find the best Zerg which is actually a title that only restricts the other races because they aren't relevant to the point of the tournament, but once again, it won't have any substantial prize pool. Now, a german-only tournament is slightly different, because it's region dependent, just like a NA tournament would be region dependent with the point being to find the best player in a region which can be helpful for regional teams and for international events like WCG where you select representatives from each nation. I don't see these tournaments as having any real purpose as an actual competitive medium other than to get more women involved in competitive play, and that's fine, this tournament specifically is fine, but I don't think it's fair to make those comparisons because it's not the same. a) You're telling me there are 0 physical limitations to getting better in SC2? You're telling me handspeed is irrelevant? You're telling me hand-eye coordination is irrevelant? You can't just become the best player in the world by training hard. You also have to be physically capable of it. I will never have 200+ apm... my hands just can't move that fast. Fact is, there are physical limitations in SC2 just like with any other sport. Should there not be different chess leagues around the world because there are no physical limitations? b) Your argument about why german-only competitions are ok and female-only competitions aren't is completely illogical. And no, it isn't because I don't comprehend. The ESL doesn't run german-only tournaments because they want to find a player for WCG or because they are trying to help regional teams. They do it because there is a market for it (the german people). And if there is one day a market for female-only tournaments, then there is absolutely no reason they shouldn't exist. Its an "everyone wins" situation. Just to clarify, he meant physical limitation between genders, not that the sport itself had a physical requirement as a whole. And not being able to hold 200 apm means you probably have some sort of medical problem, not that you just simply aren't good enough. Can we take this discussion somewhere else? No he didn't. Re-read what he wrote. And I was exaggerating about the 200 apm.. I was just trying to point out that not everyone has the handspeed/accuracy to compete with the best of the best regardless of training (and this is a fact). Anyways, yea we should end this discussion. This discussion has no place until some of the tournaments Mordiford doesn't agree with actually start to pop up. I'm just going to end with, I hope this is a success and it leads to other bigger/more badass tournaments.
I clearly meant physical limitations between genders since that was my whole point.
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Calgary26001 Posts
Can you tell us who has signed up and their approximate skill level?
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On June 10 2011 02:04 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 02:01 DoomsVille wrote:On June 10 2011 01:51 Odal wrote:On June 10 2011 01:48 DoomsVille wrote:On June 10 2011 01:36 Mordiford wrote:On June 10 2011 01:25 DoomsVille wrote:On June 10 2011 01:03 Mordiford wrote:On June 10 2011 00:57 DamageControL wrote:On June 10 2011 00:49 Mordiford wrote:On June 09 2011 23:47 DamageControL wrote:
[quote]
No they aren't. I wouldn't want to be in a community where I was sexually harassed. At the very least the increased stigma for a female playing a video game is real. Sure, guys might be seen as "nerdy" but I see gaming guys as generally more mainstream than gaming girls.
At the end of the day, I'm not sure why this is harmful to the cause of women in gaming. Let's say there are females out there who are incredibly good. This is a way they can showcase their skills to get picked up by pro teams. You may want everything to be "equal" with male gamers, but think of this as a sort of balance I guess--to make up for the higher barriers that women face.
Even if it was harmful, though, I think the harm would be fairly minimal since this tourney is pretty small and casual. I really don't want to derail this thread, but since the roll has already started... whatever. I think it's slightly silly to say that a woman would get picked up by a pro team based on their performance in a female only tournament because there is no level of talent to judge against other than the other females they're playing against, if a team did pick them up, it would likely be for a female division which is kind of pointless at this point and would likely be for show. If a player gets picked up by a pro team, it'll be on their merit against actual pros, in tournaments where the requirement is to be good as opposed to being a specific gender. I have problem with these tournaments at this level, while the prize pools remain small but to say that it could be a platform for recruitment for a pro team doesn't make sense to me. On June 10 2011 00:40 LadyRevenge wrote:
[quote]
And you imply that you are more expensive than a mothership and therefore a whore. Let's keep it civil. Right, I didn't mean based on this tournament alone. Nor would female only competition be the only place a female could get exposure. However, let's keep in mind that this community is based, in large part, on invitations. Because of that the more exposure a player gets the better. Perhaps tournaments like this alone would do nothing but if a player gets noticed they could be seen by pro/semi-pro teams or smaller tournaments and get invited. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't, but I don't so how it would HURT the cause. If it's for the novelty of being female, that's wrong as well and I wouldn't support it. If it's on their skill that they get an invite to a bigger tournament, then it'll be on their performance in an existing open tournament where they compete with no restrictions based on gender, anything else would be quite wrong in my opinion, a girl getting invited to an invitational tournament based on their results in a female only tournament over any top-mid-low tier pro would be really stupid in my opinion. Like I said, these tournaments can encourage women to get involved, which is fine, but I'm starting to slowly see the prize pools in some of these increase and that's something I don't want to see. It's a good tool to push women into the scene, but you shouldn't be able to sustain yourself as a competitor playing against limited opponents when there's no reason to believe you have any physical limitations barring you from competing against a wider array of opponents. So in other words, organizations like FIBA, the swedish elite league for hockey or MLS shouldn't exist because there are no physical limitations preventing those players from playing in the NBA, NHL or premier league? There are physical limitations for those sports, I thought these comparisons had been put down, it's not the same. On June 10 2011 01:25 Chill wrote:
This is no different than a gold-only tournament, German-only tournament or Zerg-only tournament. It's just a fun event. Not every event has to be all-enclusive or playing at the highest level. I don't think so Chill, because being a woman doesn't dictate you to a specific skill level like "Gold-only", it doesn't dictate you to a specific race like "Zerg only" and it doesn't dictate you to a specific region like "German-only". Now, for those individually, a Gold-only tournament would generally be more of a for-fun tournament and boast very small prize pools, which I'm fine with for women's tournaments, if they're around or under a $200-300 prize pool, I don't think it's a big deal. For a Zerg-only tournament, everyone is on the same playing field and the goal is to find the best Zerg which is actually a title that only restricts the other races because they aren't relevant to the point of the tournament, but once again, it won't have any substantial prize pool. Now, a german-only tournament is slightly different, because it's region dependent, just like a NA tournament would be region dependent with the point being to find the best player in a region which can be helpful for regional teams and for international events like WCG where you select representatives from each nation. I don't see these tournaments as having any real purpose as an actual competitive medium other than to get more women involved in competitive play, and that's fine, this tournament specifically is fine, but I don't think it's fair to make those comparisons because it's not the same. a) You're telling me there are 0 physical limitations to getting better in SC2? You're telling me handspeed is irrelevant? You're telling me hand-eye coordination is irrevelant? You can't just become the best player in the world by training hard. You also have to be physically capable of it. I will never have 200+ apm... my hands just can't move that fast. Fact is, there are physical limitations in SC2 just like with any other sport. Should there not be different chess leagues around the world because there are no physical limitations? b) Your argument about why german-only competitions are ok and female-only competitions aren't is completely illogical. And no, it isn't because I don't comprehend. The ESL doesn't run german-only tournaments because they want to find a player for WCG or because they are trying to help regional teams. They do it because there is a market for it (the german people). And if there is one day a market for female-only tournaments, then there is absolutely no reason they shouldn't exist. Its an "everyone wins" situation. Just to clarify, he meant physical limitation between genders, not that the sport itself had a physical requirement as a whole. And not being able to hold 200 apm means you probably have some sort of medical problem, not that you just simply aren't good enough. Can we take this discussion somewhere else? No he didn't. Re-read what he wrote. And I was exaggerating about the 200 apm.. I was just trying to point out that not everyone has the handspeed/accuracy to compete with the best of the best regardless of training (and this is a fact). Anyways, yea we should end this discussion. This discussion has no place until some of the tournaments Mordiford doesn't agree with actually start to pop up. I'm just going to end with, I hope this is a success and it leads to other bigger/more badass tournaments. I clearly meant physical limitations between genders since that was my whole point.
Taking this to PM to avoid cluttering this thread.
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the 2 best girl I know are Kalu and DaSakuras
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On June 10 2011 02:08 Chill wrote:
Can you tell us who has signed up and their approximate skill level?
If anyone. ^^ I thought this thread was meant to advertise so that female players would sign up. I have yet to see one. I think the idea's got potential so it'd be sad if it were not to happen.
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I sure wish this didn't turn into the debate it did - sorry ladies, sure hope the tourney ends up being fun regardless.
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Ahh, I would love to join, unfortunately I'm so terribad it wouldn't even be entertaining to watch, hahaha.
Maybe next time after I've had time to practice! 
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I hope this turns out to be an entertaining tournament and brings more women into competitive gaming.
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So this was last night? How did it go?
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EPT
