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On June 25 2011 15:12 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 15:02 Mordiford wrote:On June 25 2011 14:53 Itsmedudeman wrote:On June 25 2011 14:39 Mordiford wrote:On June 25 2011 14:33 Itsmedudeman wrote:On June 25 2011 14:26 Mordiford wrote:On June 25 2011 14:20 Itsmedudeman wrote:On June 25 2011 13:39 avilo wrote:On June 25 2011 13:27 iostream wrote:On June 25 2011 13:20 avilo wrote:
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yeah...i'm just gonna re-quote myself. It must be great to be a forum warrior and not understand anything about the scene or how money works in real life.
[quote]
Alright, avilo, please enlighten us why having a salary which is a) with no strings attached and b) large enough to allow you to quit your day job is not enough to give you the freedom to practice 8-12 hours a day. And before you requote yourself again, I know how "real life" works. I am a graduate student who gets paid a salary large enough to live on. My sole obligation is to do physics, and that is literally all I do, and nothing gets in the way of me dedicating myself entirely to my research. Also, please enlighten us on these mystical progamers that are getting mega salaries to be able to quit their day jobs. 99% are doing something else other than progaming to support themselves, whether it's streaming, coaching, real life jobs, or anything else. Whatever that is, it takes away time from sheer practice, which is what the koreans that live and train in pro-houses are doing. I think you're severely overestimating just how many people actually are in a situation, especially foreigners, where they are free from all obligations except practicing SC2. Then 99% of people aren't pro gamers? What more is there to say? I doubt those people who have to live off another full-time job would be good enough to get on a pro korean team and join the house to begin with. Not to mention koreans also have to deal with the mandatory 2 year military service which can literally break careers. I can't help but think this is very naive. There are plenty of pros that have had trouble performing in the past because of financial issues and because their time was split between playing and work, just because they have to work to sustain themselves doesn't mean they're bad. Sheth is a good example of someone who had some issues with sustaining himself financially before FXO, All of ROOT Gaming is another example, they had to split their time because despite being the best team in North America, they weren't making money and they weren't getting sponsorships. It's very naive to think that all you have to do is be good and you'll have the money to focus on Starcraft. You can't get good without practicing, and you can't get practice when you have other things to worry about. And how is this different from the koreans? Nothing I said was wrong. You have to be able to sustain yourself until you actually become a pro gamer, and if you can't sustain yourself while playing sc2 then you're not a pro yet. Like I mentioned earlier, eSports is much more widespread and acceptable in Korea, it's growing fast in the west, but most of the players are actually somewhat older as they continue the scene from BW where they were once again behind. If you look at a lot of the players that get taken in, they are quite young and teams aren't afraid of picking up untested players with little to no results, in Korea. To get on a pro team in the western scene right now, particularly one that will provide for you, you generally need some kind of results or you need to be VERY lucky or VERY promising. If Pokebunny, for example, went to his parents(who I have no knowledge of, they could very well be very accepting) and said, "Hey, I want to become a pro-gamer and play 12 hours a day", I'm sure it'd be a much tougher sell in the west than it would be in Korea. The cultures are different... who's being the naive one here now? You think korean parents are willing to just go ahead and accept the fact that their child wants to give up education and try to play games for the rest of their life? There's a ton of pros who had parents that were against their kid trying to be a pro gamer and it was only until they proved they were good enough that they finally accepted it. Boxer and marineking just to name a few. Korean culture isn't focused around gaming, it's heavily focused around education and success and becoming a gamer means you're giving that up. Korean teams have tryouts, and even though some of them don't have tournament results when they join a team, they have ladder success which is basically the same thing for any NA player. Did I say any of the things you just assumed I said? I simply said it's easier, gamer culture is more accepted in Korea, eSports in general really. The only player that I can think off who was picked up based on their potential alone as a salaried player for a western team is Major. There are dozens of players in pro-houses who are under the age of 20 in Korea, SlayerSGolden is like 15 years old and is living in a pro-house, it is much more acceptable in Korea. We're getting there in the west, but it's not really comparable yet. If you didn't say anything that I said then what was the point of saying it? You're saying that it's more accepted, but then agree with me that parents don't accept the idea of their child becoming a progamer? It's not easier unless you're good enough. Any 15 year old pro gamer in Korea didn't get there by not going to school and just playing sc2 all day. They had the same responsibilities as anyone else in NA and had to get good enough alone to be picked up by a pro team -- these were GM level players before they were picked up. Also, no one is being salaried here. I don't think they have to pay for housing and food afaik, but unless you're fruitdealer or trickster (although not anymore since they left) you don't get paid unless you win tournaments. July even said he was sustaining himself off of his 2nd place GSL result.
Good heavens, I feel like we're talking about something completely different, I'm not saying all those players are salaried, but they are either lodged in pro-houses, or given some compensation and even if they aren't, parents are likely more open to the prospect of professional gaming in Korea than they are in North America.
I'll once again reference Pokebunny, who said in another thread that he wouldn't be able to live in a team pro house for "obvious reasons" due to his young age, this is something that wouldn't necessarily be the case in Korea, it wouldn't be considered too abnormal or ridiculous to consider allowing a teenager to stay in a pro-house, in North America, it would likely be unacceptable. The cultures are different and level of investment in non-proven and up-and-coming players is different.
It's very hard to just sustain yourself by simply being good at Starcraft, you have to sustain yourself with other things that take away from practice time.
On June 25 2011 15:16 Ansalem wrote:
I would like to point out that there are about 175 Korean SC2 players who, while most not salaried, all live in team houses that cover all their living expenses. These players, including up-and-coming players, can spend all their time practicing.
Although many foreign teams do provide salary, the amount players are paid is not public knowledge. However, it has been made clear by members of the community that the majority of foreign players do not make enough money solely from team salary and tournament winnings alone to support themselves. Because of the lack of real team houses for most of the foreigners, it is difficult for any but the most famous or skillful to afford to practice full time and need to coach, stream, or work to supplement their income. This inability for most to afford to practice with the same kind of regiment as Koreans is a main cause in the disparity in skill-level. Although there may be some foreigners who could afford to spent all their time practicing yet don't, it's not fair to disparage the majority of foreign players who do not have the financial stability to avoid all other work.
This.
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On June 25 2011 14:05 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 13:47 Benga wrote:On June 25 2011 13:44 avilo wrote:On June 25 2011 13:27 iostream wrote:On June 25 2011 13:20 avilo wrote:On June 25 2011 13:11 Klamity wrote:On June 25 2011 13:04 avilo wrote:On June 25 2011 12:58 Duravi wrote:It will only not happen because as said in this thread multiple times by people, the majority of foreigners don't have the backing or support to play 8-12 hours a day like the korean progamers do.
Most foreigners that are trying to be progamers have real jobs/part-time jobs that they have to do along with SC2, so it takes away from practice time.
You can't adapt the regimen if you have to work all day. That is a bunch of bullshit. Most of the korean players don't even have salary, while all the top foreigners do. Idra is on salary practicing 3 hours a day. Tyler is on salary, how much do u think he practices? The problem is that management in the west refuses to hold foreigners to a schedule like most jobs in the entire fucking world do. It is extremely frustrating, you can see the results in Huk, more foreigners need to follow his lead. It also doesn't help that EG has been preaching this "korea is not the place to be" bullshit for several months now. I don't think you understand how real life works. I don't think you can read. He clearly pointed out two players who do NOT have to do some sort of job to support themselves. Starcraft IS their job. Perhaps starting up is more difficult, but nothing prevents the top foreigners from grinding away like the Koreans aside from sheer will. This really boils down to your seeming bitterness at not having the same opportunity. Unfortunately, talent can't be achieved through talking. yeah...i'm just gonna re-quote myself. It must be great to be a forum warrior and not understand anything about the scene or how money works in real life. On June 25 2011 13:04 avilo wrote:On June 25 2011 12:58 Duravi wrote:It will only not happen because as said in this thread multiple times by people, the majority of foreigners don't have the backing or support to play 8-12 hours a day like the korean progamers do.
Most foreigners that are trying to be progamers have real jobs/part-time jobs that they have to do along with SC2, so it takes away from practice time.
You can't adapt the regimen if you have to work all day. That is a bunch of bullshit. Most of the korean players don't even have salary, while all the top foreigners do. Idra is on salary practicing 3 hours a day. Tyler is on salary, how much do u think he practices? The problem is that management in the west refuses to hold foreigners to a schedule like most jobs in the entire fucking world do. It is extremely frustrating, you can see the results in Huk, more foreigners need to follow his lead. It also doesn't help that EG has been preaching this "korea is not the place to be" bullshit for several months now. I don't think you understand how real life works. Alright, avilo, please enlighten us why having a salary which is a) with no strings attached and b) large enough to allow you to quit your day job is not enough to give you the freedom to practice 8-12 hours a day. And before you requote yourself again, I know how "real life" works. I am a graduate student who gets paid a salary large enough to live on. My sole obligation is to do physics, and that is literally all I do, and nothing gets in the way of me dedicating myself entirely to my research. And that's a huge difference. Most pro-gamers or aspiring pros are NOT being paid a salary. Your sole obligation is earning you money. A foreigner practicing 12 hours a day does not guarantee a salary, let alone any money. You can do physics 12 hours a day, you will be paid. A player can practice 12 hours a day and make ZERO. That's the difference that in all your physics glory you seem to not be connecting here... I dont get what your trying to express, so what do you suggest foreigners do then Keep practicing as much as possible obviously! It's just naive for people to think that foreigners will be able to practice as many hours as korean players that are living in pro-houses, and try to claim that "foreigners don't work as hard." The cultures are entirely different, and the korean scene for starcraft in general is already established. And even "salaried foreigners" for the most part cannot just support themselves from that, so assuming that they are not working hard is sort of absurd imo.
As as fan, I'm glad that NASL is attracting some of the best players in the world, even if it means an overwhelming amount of Korean players.
But I hope Xeris or someone else from NASL reads your posts, Avilo. It really is in the best interest of the NASL for North American and European players to develop and mature in the long run. That doesn't mean watering down the competition, but it does mean giving them the opportunities to succeed.
For example, scheduling qualifiers in the middle of the day when most players are either in school or working is actually not a benefit, but a detriment to the majority of the North American scene.
I understand NASL's position -- that having games in the middle of the day is fine and dandy for "real" pro's -- but the amount of players in North America that can actually accommodate that is very small. The scene here is still to young, and there has to be a period of transition. And NASL could be either instrumental in facilitating that, or ignore the issue and hope that NA players pull up their bootstraps.
Personally, I think the latter is a little too idealistic and naive, given 'the economy' of SC2 in North America.
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On June 25 2011 15:24 Geolich wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 15:03 cwp wrote:On June 25 2011 14:44 Geolich wrote:On June 25 2011 14:39 Mordiford wrote:On June 25 2011 14:33 Itsmedudeman wrote:On June 25 2011 14:26 Mordiford wrote:On June 25 2011 14:20 Itsmedudeman wrote:On June 25 2011 13:39 avilo wrote:On June 25 2011 13:27 iostream wrote:On June 25 2011 13:20 avilo wrote:
[quote]
yeah...i'm just gonna re-quote myself. It must be great to be a forum warrior and not understand anything about the scene or how money works in real life.
[quote]
Alright, avilo, please enlighten us why having a salary which is a) with no strings attached and b) large enough to allow you to quit your day job is not enough to give you the freedom to practice 8-12 hours a day. And before you requote yourself again, I know how "real life" works. I am a graduate student who gets paid a salary large enough to live on. My sole obligation is to do physics, and that is literally all I do, and nothing gets in the way of me dedicating myself entirely to my research. Also, please enlighten us on these mystical progamers that are getting mega salaries to be able to quit their day jobs. 99% are doing something else other than progaming to support themselves, whether it's streaming, coaching, real life jobs, or anything else. Whatever that is, it takes away time from sheer practice, which is what the koreans that live and train in pro-houses are doing. I think you're severely overestimating just how many people actually are in a situation, especially foreigners, where they are free from all obligations except practicing SC2. Then 99% of people aren't pro gamers? What more is there to say? I doubt those people who have to live off another full-time job would be good enough to get on a pro korean team and join the house to begin with. Not to mention koreans also have to deal with the mandatory 2 year military service which can literally break careers. I can't help but think this is very naive. There are plenty of pros that have had trouble performing in the past because of financial issues and because their time was split between playing and work, just because they have to work to sustain themselves doesn't mean they're bad. Sheth is a good example of someone who had some issues with sustaining himself financially before FXO, All of ROOT Gaming is another example, they had to split their time because despite being the best team in North America, they weren't making money and they weren't getting sponsorships. It's very naive to think that all you have to do is be good and you'll have the money to focus on Starcraft. You can't get good without practicing, and you can't get practice when you have other things to worry about. And how is this different from the koreans? Nothing I said was wrong. You have to be able to sustain yourself until you actually become a pro gamer, and if you can't sustain yourself while playing sc2 then you're not a pro yet. Like I mentioned earlier, eSports is much more widespread and acceptable in Korea, it's growing fast in the west, but most of the players are actually somewhat older as they continue the scene from BW where they were once again behind. If you look at a lot of the players that get taken in, they are quite young and teams aren't afraid of picking up untested players with little to no results, in Korea. To get on a pro team in the western scene right now, particularly one that will provide for you, you generally need some kind of results or you need to be VERY lucky or VERY promising.If Pokebunny, for example, went to his parents(who I have no knowledge of, they could very well be very accepting) and said, "Hey, I want to become a pro-gamer and play 12 hours a day", I'm sure it'd be a much tougher sell in the west than it would be in Korea. The cultures are different... uh yeah great point how do you think real athletes get on teams? Let me know when they start offering Starcraft 2 in our high schools, where talent scouts can come pick you for their college team. Then you can shine and be drafted into a professional team. oh youre right, i forgot that SC2 or BW is a part of the Korean curriculum idiot.
You just asked how athletes get on teams. That's exactly how they get on teams here. Not at all how a pro-gamer would get on a team. I never made any claims about the curricula in Korea.
Nice try though.
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Well this is awesome. Thorzain and a lots of koreans :D Awesome. And look at this more awesome. NASL Season 2 qualifier
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By the way witch people are out from NASL season 1. Is it bottom 3 or bottom 4 in each group?
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Heh if MKP made it in I might actually buy a pass for season 2 
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On June 25 2011 18:03 Get.Midikem wrote:Well this is awesome. Thorzain and a lots of koreans :D Awesome. And look at this more awesome. NASL Season 2 qualifier
This lineup is getting so sick!
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On June 25 2011 18:10 Get.Midikem wrote:
By the way witch people are out from NASL season 1. Is it bottom 3 or bottom 4 in each group?
bottom 16 league-wide.
TLO*
ClouD
Tyler
RainBOw
ViBE
SLush
HayprO
KawaiiRice
GoOdy
Drewbie
CatZ
Machine
Grubby
Artosis
qxc
PainUser
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So ... Ro 8 and Ro 4 today, any way to watch them?
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Man, NASL.
You have all these Koreans playing on unknown accounts. How hard could it be to have a simple overlay/scoreboard showing their real names so people have a good idea what game they're watching. Vanvinth vs TheBestOne wtf
You don't even need that proprietary MSPaint owl you use sometimes (and I gather have gotten mostly negative feedback for since you don't anymore), just use one of the many good-looking open source ones (Starboard being my personal favourite). If every weekly 50$ cup can do it, so can the 100.000$ league.
Like, seriously.
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On June 25 2011 22:14 Sixes wrote:
So ... Ro 8 and Ro 4 today, any way to watch them?
Have a look at the event calendar, it's there and will be casted on the official NASL.tv channel.
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On June 25 2011 22:23 Bobster wrote:Man, NASL. You have all these Koreans playing on unknown accounts. How hard could it be to have a simple overlay/scoreboard showing their real names so people have a good idea what game they're watching. Vanvinth vs TheBestOne wtf You don't even need that proprietary MSPaint owl you use sometimes (and I gather have gotten mostly negative feedback for since you don't anymore), just use one of the many good-looking open source ones ( Starboard being my personal favourite). If every weekly 50$ cup can do it, so can the 100.000$ league. Like, seriously.
Well look at the bright side, at least you get to see the epic name that is fecalfeast ;-P
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Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but the OP isn't updated with remaining players and the bracket on Nasl.tv has the korean players' RL names (which I sure as hell can't recognize).
Who are the koreans remaining, besides Rain?
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I think most of the "new" breed of west progamers are real hard workers. But most of the famous first generation foreigners were for a lot of them bw players that started to play sc2 and didn't really train hard. They were successful at first without a lot of training, and starcraft 2 exploded, so they were recruited by teams.
Then the koreans started playing seriously, and it showed that our guys didn't trained enough (I won't cite any name, but we have a good number of very famous progamers that shouldn't be here, if the first criteria was skill level/dedication. This guys have a salary or at least sponsors that can allow them to do stacraft 24/7.
And now, most of the 2nd generation of progamers are real hard workers. Nani, Thorzain, Major, dde and a lot more. (some of the "old generation of progamers did catch the train train too, Sen, Fenix, Select and more). A lot of the new teams have understood that too and now want hard work for their money, and not only popular players.
So this could change. The only problem I see is that it's a virtuous circle. Koreans trained hard at first, and now they have sick training partners and the skill level rise very very fast. Western players didn't train so hard, the skill level at the top is still "low", so skill increase slower.
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On June 25 2011 23:09 Shichibukai wrote:
Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but the OP isn't updated with remaining players and the bracket on Nasl.tv has the korean players' RL names (which I sure as hell can't recognize).
Who are the koreans remaining, besides Rain?
aLive, Clide, PuMa, Revival all are from TSL iirc.
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
This is quickly turning into a TSL in-house tournament.
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Hope Thorzain manages to overcome his opponent!
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First match....
![[image loading]](http://play.fnatic.com/public/img/flags/kr.gif) TSL_PuMa vs ![[image loading]](http://play.fnatic.com/public/img/flags/ro.gif) FnaticNightEnD
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DeMuslim not signing up for the season 2 quals?
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is there a list with the first 8 qualifiers with their real names?
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EPT
