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On June 01 2011 11:38 Ezekyle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:37 Rarak wrote:On June 01 2011 11:17 imareaver3 wrote:On June 01 2011 11:14 Chicane wrote:On June 01 2011 11:12 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:11 Chicane wrote:On June 01 2011 11:10 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
T___T mingun allins, idra defends it, minigun expands and now idra is behind :/ You got it backwards. Minigun expands, IdrA all ins and doesn't do enough damage with it and is behind. you missed the part where minigun 4gated and tried to be aggressive with it, forcing idra to make those units which were basically useless against forcefields You have never seen a player put on a bit of pressure? That's just good game play. He moved forward and instantly pulled back as he expanded If it was just pressure, that would have been true. But it wasn't--it was an MC 4-gate, and if IdrA had built any fewer units he would have died after the nexus cancel+warp-in+FF on ramp. What bugs us Z isn't that IdrA's later attack failed, it's that Minigun was able to play an all-in, see that his opponent reacted appropriately, and immediately about-face and switch into economic play without being behind. That means it is not an all in... I don't understand this argument at all. Does the fact that it can flat-out kill the Zerg if he doesn't react perfectly but doesn't put the Protoss behind at all if it fails make it more balanced?
It can only flat out kill the Zerg if he doesn't make enough/any units to defend, if he overcompensates and worse throws away those units, he's behind, if he makes enough to defend, they're even or he's ahead moving forward. Guess what, it's largely the same for all other pressures, if they don't have enough shit to defend they lose, if they have enough shit to defend they come out even or ahead, if they have too much shit they hold and are even or slightly behind, if they have too much shit and then try a fail counter, they're behind...
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Idra is a hero to all zergs. He is a martyr. All his rage and rage quits eventually balance out the game. Remember when he left metalpolis right after being bunker rushed in gsl by jinro? GSL fixed that map so no close positions. Remember when idra lost TWICE to Jinro on Jungle Basin? Blizzard took that map out right after. Remember when Idra lost to Jinro close position shakuras? Blizzard fixed that shit so theres no back rocks. Idra's rage and complaints only do us zergs good, people listen and for the most part, he is right. Forcefields are imbalanced in zvp. tvp, Terran at least has emp. Zerg's got burrow movement, but that only works early-midgame. Zerg just cant deal with mass forcefields, its so hard.
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On June 01 2011 11:40 hifriend wrote:
Can't believe people are discussing pvz/ff imba as a response to seeing idra smash a pure roach/hydra army into sentry/stalker/colossi with superior upgrades repeatedly and mis-microing his roachling aggression so bad it only killed like a sentry and a stalker. T_T
I'm not even complaining about imba though... I never even mentioned balance T_______T
all I'm saying is that its really fucking hard to react properly and come out even with what protoss is doing and they have a lot of very safe options at their disposal, that's a cointoss (game design) issue not a statistical balance one
but yeah, I'd be the source of this shitfest :/
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On June 01 2011 11:42 koolaid1990 wrote:
Idra is a hero to all zergs. He is a martyr. All his rage and rage quits eventually balance out the game. Remember when he left metalpolis right after being bunker rushed in gsl by jinro? GSL fixed that map so no close positions. Remember when idra lost TWICE to Jinro on Jungle Basin? Blizzard took that map out right after. Remember when Idra lost to Jinro close position shakuras? Blizzard fixed that shit so theres no back rocks. Idra's rage and complaints only do us zergs good, people listen and for the most part, he is right. Forcefields are imbalanced in zvp. tvp, Terran at least has emp. Zerg's got burrow movement, but that only works early-midgame. Zerg just cant deal with mass forcefields, its so hard.
Do you actually think Blizzard changed those things because of IdrA losing? I really hope you don't.
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On June 01 2011 11:40 hifriend wrote:
Can't believe people are discussing pvz/ff imba as a response to seeing idra smash a pure roach/hydra army into sentry/stalker/colossi with superior upgrades repeatedly and mis-microing his roachling aggression so bad it only killed like a sentry and a stalker. T_T
Idra being responsible for his loss? BLASPHEMY
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On June 01 2011 11:36 koolaid1990 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:30 Blasphemi wrote:
This just shows the difference between Idra and Nestea. Idra is still doing the same stuff and whining that he is the 'better player' and should therefore win regardless of strategy in a real time strategy game. If he has Robo you don't get Hydras, it's simple, it doesn't work at all you will lost in 95% of games with Hydras as your dps unit versus Collosus Protoss, it has to be Infestors or Banes unless are endlessly ahead in supply.
Meanwhile in Korea Nestea is busy reinventing the matchup being creative and destroying far better Protoss players than Minigun. LOL at all this bias. You have only seen nestea play in gsl. Nestea doesn't even have a 60% winrate on ladder, he gets mad at forcefields all the time. He loses alot. Stop thinking nestea is a god and is reinventing the matchup. Hes good. Thats all there is to it. Btw, if he has robo, you DONT GET HYDRAS? LOL what kind of retarded logic is that? are you telling me that you build roaches against immortals? LOL hydras are essential to immortals. The hard part is that the toss can choose if they want collosus or immortal, so its hard to scout and predict.
Players like Nestea take ladder extremely seriously.
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On June 01 2011 11:38 Ezekyle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:37 Rarak wrote:On June 01 2011 11:17 imareaver3 wrote:On June 01 2011 11:14 Chicane wrote:On June 01 2011 11:12 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:11 Chicane wrote:On June 01 2011 11:10 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
T___T mingun allins, idra defends it, minigun expands and now idra is behind :/ You got it backwards. Minigun expands, IdrA all ins and doesn't do enough damage with it and is behind. you missed the part where minigun 4gated and tried to be aggressive with it, forcing idra to make those units which were basically useless against forcefields You have never seen a player put on a bit of pressure? That's just good game play. He moved forward and instantly pulled back as he expanded If it was just pressure, that would have been true. But it wasn't--it was an MC 4-gate, and if IdrA had built any fewer units he would have died after the nexus cancel+warp-in+FF on ramp. What bugs us Z isn't that IdrA's later attack failed, it's that Minigun was able to play an all-in, see that his opponent reacted appropriately, and immediately about-face and switch into economic play without being behind. That means it is not an all in... I don't understand this argument at all. Does the fact that it can flat-out kill the Zerg if he doesn't react perfectly but doesn't put the Protoss behind at all if it fails make it more balanced?
That statement is completely false though. If minigun committs and Idra holds it off there's no way minigun would have been able to defend his expo unless he magically saves all of his sentries, and even then its dubious. There's also no way you can effectively committ to an attack unless you cancel that nexus, in which case its completely all in.
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On June 01 2011 11:42 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:34 blade55555 wrote:On June 01 2011 11:33 Blasphemi wrote:On June 01 2011 11:31 Mailing wrote:On June 01 2011 11:30 Blasphemi wrote:
This just shows the difference between Idra and Nestea. Idra is still doing the same stuff and whining that he is the 'better player' and should therefore win regardless of strategy in a real time strategy game. If he has Robo you don't get Hydras, it's simple, it doesn't work at all you will lost in 95% of games with Hydras as your dps unit versus Collosus Protoss, it has to be Infestors or Banes unless are endlessly ahead in supply.
Meanwhile in Korea Nestea is busy reinventing the matchup being creative and destroying far better Protoss players than Minigun. What the hell? Inca and Anypro are not better than Minigun. You cannot be serious. Inca and Anypro are on a different planet to Minigun. Idk Inca's pvz is pretty bad or at least in all his pvz's I have seen of his so far he has gotten smashed. Anypro I can't remember his play but inca's pvz is worse then minigun's just from watching anyway. Maybe just maybe Inca is worse at PvZ than Minigun but remember Inca is and has always been Code S. So when Inca plays versus he plays Nestea, July, Losira, Zenio, Kyrix. When Minigun plays Zergs he plays Idra, Machine, Sheth and Catz. So yes, surprisingly, Minigun has a better record versus Zerg. In PvP and PvT Inca is far better than Minigun will ever be. Anypro has made a Ro4 and two Ro8s in GSL beating FruitDealer, Kyrix, Jinro, Morrow, July and Trickster on LAN at the biggest tournament going. He is way ahead of Minigun in all match ups with his PvZ being particularly good.
Well its not even about records. For starters Inca is 0-8 against zergs on the team liquid database. Looking at foreigners he lost to naugrim 2-1 in his other pvz that wasn't vs nestea its just from actually watching his play in pvz seems terrible.
Just from watching his pvz its bad he just gets trashed like not in one pvz have I seen him even look like he had a chance after the early game.
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On June 01 2011 11:42 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:34 blade55555 wrote:On June 01 2011 11:33 Blasphemi wrote:On June 01 2011 11:31 Mailing wrote:On June 01 2011 11:30 Blasphemi wrote:
This just shows the difference between Idra and Nestea. Idra is still doing the same stuff and whining that he is the 'better player' and should therefore win regardless of strategy in a real time strategy game. If he has Robo you don't get Hydras, it's simple, it doesn't work at all you will lost in 95% of games with Hydras as your dps unit versus Collosus Protoss, it has to be Infestors or Banes unless are endlessly ahead in supply.
Meanwhile in Korea Nestea is busy reinventing the matchup being creative and destroying far better Protoss players than Minigun. What the hell? Inca and Anypro are not better than Minigun. You cannot be serious. Inca and Anypro are on a different planet to Minigun. Idk Inca's pvz is pretty bad or at least in all his pvz's I have seen of his so far he has gotten smashed. Anypro I can't remember his play but inca's pvz is worse then minigun's just from watching anyway. Maybe just maybe Inca is worse at PvZ than Minigun but remember Inca is and has always been Code S. So when Inca plays versus he plays Nestea, July, Losira, Zenio, Kyrix. When Minigun plays Zergs he plays Idra, Machine, Sheth and Catz. So yes, surprisingly, Minigun has a better record versus Zerg. In PvP and PvT Inca is far better than Minigun will ever be. Anypro has made a Ro4 and two Ro8s in GSL beating FruitDealer, Kyrix, Jinro, Morrow, July and Trickster on LAN at the biggest tournament going. He is way ahead of Minigun in all match ups with his PvZ being particularly good.
You say idra like he isn't possibly a top 3 zerg out of all those koreans you listed. Kyrix..no, zenio no, you can't just be a ZvZ specialist and be an elite zerg. july, nestea, losira are the only ones you could see ahead of idra. Keep hating though.
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On June 01 2011 11:43 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:40 hifriend wrote:
Can't believe people are discussing pvz/ff imba as a response to seeing idra smash a pure roach/hydra army into sentry/stalker/colossi with superior upgrades repeatedly and mis-microing his roachling aggression so bad it only killed like a sentry and a stalker. T_T I'm not even complaining about imba though... I never even mentioned balance T_______T all I'm saying is that its really fucking hard to react properly to what protoss is doing and they have a lot of very safe options at their disposal, that's a cointoss (game design) issue not a statistical balance one
If it was an actual coin toss, then Zerg wouldn't be doing as well as they are in the matchup if it boiled down to those situations, particularly if the Protoss had all the safe options you suggest. So I'll have to disagree with you here.
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On June 01 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:36 koolaid1990 wrote:On June 01 2011 11:30 Blasphemi wrote:
This just shows the difference between Idra and Nestea. Idra is still doing the same stuff and whining that he is the 'better player' and should therefore win regardless of strategy in a real time strategy game. If he has Robo you don't get Hydras, it's simple, it doesn't work at all you will lost in 95% of games with Hydras as your dps unit versus Collosus Protoss, it has to be Infestors or Banes unless are endlessly ahead in supply.
Meanwhile in Korea Nestea is busy reinventing the matchup being creative and destroying far better Protoss players than Minigun. LOL at all this bias. You have only seen nestea play in gsl. Nestea doesn't even have a 60% winrate on ladder, he gets mad at forcefields all the time. He loses alot. Stop thinking nestea is a god and is reinventing the matchup. Hes good. Thats all there is to it. Btw, if he has robo, you DONT GET HYDRAS? LOL what kind of retarded logic is that? are you telling me that you build roaches against immortals? LOL hydras are essential to immortals. The hard part is that the toss can choose if they want collosus or immortal, so its hard to scout and predict. Players like Nestea take ladder extremely seriously.
Most of the games from Nestea I've seen on the ladder was offracing as Terran or Protoss as well :X
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On June 01 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:36 koolaid1990 wrote:On June 01 2011 11:30 Blasphemi wrote:
This just shows the difference between Idra and Nestea. Idra is still doing the same stuff and whining that he is the 'better player' and should therefore win regardless of strategy in a real time strategy game. If he has Robo you don't get Hydras, it's simple, it doesn't work at all you will lost in 95% of games with Hydras as your dps unit versus Collosus Protoss, it has to be Infestors or Banes unless are endlessly ahead in supply.
Meanwhile in Korea Nestea is busy reinventing the matchup being creative and destroying far better Protoss players than Minigun. LOL at all this bias. You have only seen nestea play in gsl. Nestea doesn't even have a 60% winrate on ladder, he gets mad at forcefields all the time. He loses alot. Stop thinking nestea is a god and is reinventing the matchup. Hes good. Thats all there is to it. Btw, if he has robo, you DONT GET HYDRAS? LOL what kind of retarded logic is that? are you telling me that you build roaches against immortals? LOL hydras are essential to immortals. The hard part is that the toss can choose if they want collosus or immortal, so its hard to scout and predict. Players like Nestea take ladder extremely seriously.
Players like Nestea (i.e. Koreans) have a better ladder to work with.
Anyways, IdrA has stated that he uses an alt account to train on EU ladder.
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On June 01 2011 11:45 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:43 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:40 hifriend wrote:
Can't believe people are discussing pvz/ff imba as a response to seeing idra smash a pure roach/hydra army into sentry/stalker/colossi with superior upgrades repeatedly and mis-microing his roachling aggression so bad it only killed like a sentry and a stalker. T_T I'm not even complaining about imba though... I never even mentioned balance T_______T all I'm saying is that its really fucking hard to react properly to what protoss is doing and they have a lot of very safe options at their disposal, that's a cointoss (game design) issue not a statistical balance one If it was an actual coin toss, then Zerg wouldn't be doing as well as they are in the matchup if it boiled down to those situations, particularly if the Protoss had all the safe options you suggest. So I'll have to disagree with you here.
by definition it would come out to ~50%, would it not?
the matchup is a little tilted right now because protosses are figuring out the new midgame options zergs have come up with, but the earlygame still feels like a guessing game
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gogo root, its puzzling how they're still not getting any sponsorship support yet.. theyre doing so well in individual/clanleagues and have a huge fanbase compared to the majority of other teams
makes me really sad =/
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On June 01 2011 11:45 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:42 Blasphemi wrote:On June 01 2011 11:34 blade55555 wrote:On June 01 2011 11:33 Blasphemi wrote:On June 01 2011 11:31 Mailing wrote:On June 01 2011 11:30 Blasphemi wrote:
This just shows the difference between Idra and Nestea. Idra is still doing the same stuff and whining that he is the 'better player' and should therefore win regardless of strategy in a real time strategy game. If he has Robo you don't get Hydras, it's simple, it doesn't work at all you will lost in 95% of games with Hydras as your dps unit versus Collosus Protoss, it has to be Infestors or Banes unless are endlessly ahead in supply.
Meanwhile in Korea Nestea is busy reinventing the matchup being creative and destroying far better Protoss players than Minigun. What the hell? Inca and Anypro are not better than Minigun. You cannot be serious. Inca and Anypro are on a different planet to Minigun. Idk Inca's pvz is pretty bad or at least in all his pvz's I have seen of his so far he has gotten smashed. Anypro I can't remember his play but inca's pvz is worse then minigun's just from watching anyway. Maybe just maybe Inca is worse at PvZ than Minigun but remember Inca is and has always been Code S. So when Inca plays versus he plays Nestea, July, Losira, Zenio, Kyrix. When Minigun plays Zergs he plays Idra, Machine, Sheth and Catz. So yes, surprisingly, Minigun has a better record versus Zerg. In PvP and PvT Inca is far better than Minigun will ever be. Anypro has made a Ro4 and two Ro8s in GSL beating FruitDealer, Kyrix, Jinro, Morrow, July and Trickster on LAN at the biggest tournament going. He is way ahead of Minigun in all match ups with his PvZ being particularly good. You say idra like he isn't possibly a top 3 zerg out of all those koreans you listed. Kyrix..no, zenio no, you can't just be a ZvZ specialist and be an elite zerg. july, nestea, losira are the only ones you could see ahead of idra. Keep hating though.
Idra is a top Zerg, the rest I listed definitely are not. Zenio had a better record than Idra in the GSL btw and has the same record as Idra in the NASL playing with KOR > NA lag. So I don't see why Idra is clearly better than Zenio.
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On June 01 2011 11:47 TT1 wrote:
gogo root, its puzzling how they're still not getting any sponsorship support yet.. theyre doing so well in individual/clanleagues and have a huge fanbase compared to the majority of other teams
makes me really sad =/
Well if you wouldn't mind shedding a bit of light on it... IGN JTV and Pokerstars don't support them much?
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On June 01 2011 11:41 antilyon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:38 d(O.o)a wrote:On June 01 2011 11:20 xbankx wrote:On June 01 2011 11:18 bluestuff wrote:
forcefields are just abysmal from a game design perspective, and completly mitigating the micro from the player facing them So does stasis from broodwar, lockdown from broodwar Please say you're joking, units that are stasis'd cannot be attacked, units blocked by forcefields stack for collo to kill them faster. Stasis is also less available. Lockdown ONLY worked on mechanical units, was on an expensive unit that did little other good, and took a huge amount of tech to obtain. Don't talk about things you don't understand. And Lockdown only worked on more than 2 units if you had god-like micro.
Not to mention it required 100 energy PER UNIT.
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On June 01 2011 11:46 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:45 Mordiford wrote:On June 01 2011 11:43 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:40 hifriend wrote:
Can't believe people are discussing pvz/ff imba as a response to seeing idra smash a pure roach/hydra army into sentry/stalker/colossi with superior upgrades repeatedly and mis-microing his roachling aggression so bad it only killed like a sentry and a stalker. T_T I'm not even complaining about imba though... I never even mentioned balance T_______T all I'm saying is that its really fucking hard to react properly to what protoss is doing and they have a lot of very safe options at their disposal, that's a cointoss (game design) issue not a statistical balance one If it was an actual coin toss, then Zerg wouldn't be doing as well as they are in the matchup if it boiled down to those situations, particularly if the Protoss had all the safe options you suggest. So I'll have to disagree with you here. by definition it would come out to ~50%, would it not?
No, because that would mean that player skill is completely irrelevant, and it comes down to me picking A and you picking B = You win, me picking A you picking C = I win for a coin flip situation, there are elements of scouting where you have to guess, but these exist for every race and if they didn't it would have to be reflected in win rates because you suggest Protoss have a number of safe options, this would mean that Zerg players would have to outplay the Protoss near 100% of the time to achieve a 50% win rate, which is a stretch and then some.
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On June 01 2011 11:49 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:41 antilyon wrote:On June 01 2011 11:38 d(O.o)a wrote:On June 01 2011 11:20 xbankx wrote:On June 01 2011 11:18 bluestuff wrote:
forcefields are just abysmal from a game design perspective, and completly mitigating the micro from the player facing them So does stasis from broodwar, lockdown from broodwar Please say you're joking, units that are stasis'd cannot be attacked, units blocked by forcefields stack for collo to kill them faster. Stasis is also less available. Lockdown ONLY worked on mechanical units, was on an expensive unit that did little other good, and took a huge amount of tech to obtain. Don't talk about things you don't understand. And Lockdown only worked on more than 2 units if you had god-like micro. Not to mention it required 100 energy PER UNIT.
I merely just listed all ability that removed micro from the game. No one said they had to be equally good or bad.
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On June 01 2011 11:44 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:42 Blasphemi wrote:On June 01 2011 11:34 blade55555 wrote:On June 01 2011 11:33 Blasphemi wrote:On June 01 2011 11:31 Mailing wrote:On June 01 2011 11:30 Blasphemi wrote:
This just shows the difference between Idra and Nestea. Idra is still doing the same stuff and whining that he is the 'better player' and should therefore win regardless of strategy in a real time strategy game. If he has Robo you don't get Hydras, it's simple, it doesn't work at all you will lost in 95% of games with Hydras as your dps unit versus Collosus Protoss, it has to be Infestors or Banes unless are endlessly ahead in supply.
Meanwhile in Korea Nestea is busy reinventing the matchup being creative and destroying far better Protoss players than Minigun. What the hell? Inca and Anypro are not better than Minigun. You cannot be serious. Inca and Anypro are on a different planet to Minigun. Idk Inca's pvz is pretty bad or at least in all his pvz's I have seen of his so far he has gotten smashed. Anypro I can't remember his play but inca's pvz is worse then minigun's just from watching anyway. Maybe just maybe Inca is worse at PvZ than Minigun but remember Inca is and has always been Code S. So when Inca plays versus he plays Nestea, July, Losira, Zenio, Kyrix. When Minigun plays Zergs he plays Idra, Machine, Sheth and Catz. So yes, surprisingly, Minigun has a better record versus Zerg. In PvP and PvT Inca is far better than Minigun will ever be. Anypro has made a Ro4 and two Ro8s in GSL beating FruitDealer, Kyrix, Jinro, Morrow, July and Trickster on LAN at the biggest tournament going. He is way ahead of Minigun in all match ups with his PvZ being particularly good. Well its not even about records. For starters Inca is 0-8 against zergs on the team liquid database. Looking at foreigners he lost to naugrim 2-1 in his other pvz that wasn't vs nestea its just from actually watching his play in pvz seems terrible. Just from watching his pvz its bad he just gets trashed like not in one pvz have I seen him even look like he had a chance after the early game.
6 of Inca's 8 losses came against the player who won the whole tournament he lost in (Nestea and Fruitdealer). He then lost best of 1s versus Min (Code S, took a game from Nestea the other day) and Kyrix (long time Code S). So yeah his record sucks but he's played really fucking good players. I expect Minigun's record if he played those players at those times would be pretty grim too.
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EPT
