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On April 17 2011 07:51 entropius wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 07:48 Asvhald wrote:
Zerg loses - Game not recommended
Zerg wins - Game is recommended
Why? Because zerg wins against protoss have historically involved some sort of ambitious, ballsy, oddball early aggression/drop play -- Idra vs. Cruncher game 2, some of the Idra vs. HuK games, and Morrow's first win in this series. These things are exciting to watch. Zerg losses against protoss, in contrast, involve a-moved deathballs, 4gate, or 6gate. These things are typically not exciting.
But Protoss needs to defend against that aggression in order to get that Deathball. It's no different when in GSL 1 where Fruit Dealer defended against all the Terran harass and just swarmed his opponent in the end.
So people can appreciate good Zerg defense and offense but can't appreciate good Protoss defense and offense. There's just no winning in the entertainment factor if you're playing Protoss.
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On April 17 2011 07:55 DiaBoLuS wrote:
ppl who say morrows wins were more entertaining should play action games, not strategy games...
protoss is bound to play defensive unless they allin, timingpush or do airharassment - there is simply no window to create "wow what impressive play" moments.
thats why it looks so easy to play protoss, but it defenetly is not... morrow wouldve crushed most Ps out there with the games he showed us today.
so what, your just saying it's possible for baller zergs to crush opponents significantly worst than them? Well damn I never knew it was possible.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 17 2011 07:51 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 07:49 ihavetofartosis wrote:On April 17 2011 07:48 Asvhald wrote:
Zerg loses - Game not recommended
Zerg wins - Game is recommended
Why? The games that Morrow won in this series were a lot more exciting as a spectator. Simple as that. Tbh that might be because morrow didn't allow 2/3 of hasuobs wins to be fun. I mean its hard to find a game fun when one player just gives up, even if he is behind/going to loose.
Hasu tried to 3 base turtle into deathball every single game, how is he going to make that fun for any viewer? His drop defense in game 5 was good, but besides that everything looked normal and(I'm sorry) boring. He didn't have too many interesting or impressive moments.
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On April 17 2011 07:55 DiaBoLuS wrote:
ppl who say morrows wins were more entertaining should play action games, not strategy games...
protoss is bound to play defensive unless they allin, timingpush or do airharassment - there is simply no window to create "wow what impressive play" moments.
thats why it looks so easy to play protoss, but it defenetly is not... morrow wouldve crushed most Ps out there with the games he showed us today.
Really, so I guess it is impossible for P to use warp prisms for example, but Z should definitely use nydus. It's not even the fact that he can play D and push at some point. It's that you can play D, attack and you are 95% guaranteed to win. T can play fairly defensive too and then push, but at least against that as Z you have some options. Notice how Sen v Boxer games are all recommended.
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For those saying the defense was like "omg" worthy from Hasu. He did well to defend it, but he would have held it easily but he got supply capped as the drop happened from losing the pylon. Had he not he had more warpins ready and could've easily held.
On top of that, he anticipated the drop from miles off. He saw the hydras, lots of ovies chilling, and they had speed. While none of those are "guaranteed" signs of a drop, with no 3rd as well he can certainly add that all together and assume it's coming at the cost of a few cannons.
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On April 17 2011 07:54 KiNGxXx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 07:52 Redox wrote:
One of the reasons for all the whining is the huge underestimation of HasuObs. They will change their mind when Hasu defeats Boxer! 
I don't think anyone is underestimating Hasu. You are gonna cheer for HasuObs obviously, but I think a lot of zerg players are getting frustrated at this matchup, so there is gonna be some whine.
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Once again Morrow is too passive and loses his attack window... Zerg need to realize that a fast expanding toss takes forever to tech and this leaves a huge window open for attack before thermal lance is done.
Would also like to see Morrow (and zerg in general) do more 2 prong attacks. It doesn't make sense to ball up all your units when you face AOE units (like the colossi) and forcefields. One group of zerg units can attack one base and another group can attack the other. The group that faces the strongest resistance can retreat to buy time while the other group wipes out the other base.
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On April 17 2011 07:55 DiaBoLuS wrote:
ppl who say morrows wins were more entertaining should play action games, not strategy games...
protoss is bound to play defensive unless they allin, timingpush or do airharassment - there is simply no window to create "wow what impressive play" moments.
Right, and that's why people don't recommend games where the Protoss wins. Because there are no "wow what impressive play" moments (except when San is involved, because he's a boss). It's just a few attacks failing utterly and then the Protoss rolling over their opponent. It may be skilful and strategic, but it sure as hell isn't fun to watch.
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On April 17 2011 07:57 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 07:52 Redox wrote:
One of the reasons for all the whining is the huge underestimation of HasuObs. Well.. to be honest he's not doing something unortodox at all. Most protoss have PvZ figure out while zerg don't know how the fuck play this match-up. FFE / 3gate sentry expand into Colossus play is not the hardest thing to pull off against player who are strungling in this match-up.
dimaga,kas,huk,cloud and recently 2-0 against sjow.
that guy is definately able to play
people LOVE to underestimate people like kas for example
and always pushing bigger names to the moon.
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On April 17 2011 07:49 hugman wrote:Funny + Show Spoiler +Everyone says "don't let Protoss play a macro game", which is fair, so lets try early aggression. Well, as it turns out you more or less need to all-in if you want to be aggressive early on as Zerg, it depends a bit on the map. It's not cheese, don't blame him for trying and no, this is not balance whine.
NOBODY seems to understand that this cheerful was made, after round of 32, where Morrow Banelingbusted himself into round of 16 ... which a lot of people consider cheesy.
Also no more cheese is a rather OBVIOUS play on words with their teamname mouz.
People you need to chillax a bit more.
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On April 17 2011 07:55 DiaBoLuS wrote:
ppl who say morrows wins were more entertaining should play action games, not strategy games...
protoss is bound to play defensive unless they allin, timingpush or do airharassment - there is simply no window to create "wow what impressive play" moments.
thats why it looks so easy to play protoss, but it defenetly is not... morrow wouldve crushed most Ps out there with the games he showed us today.
Well that's one way to see it, I'd rather recommend an action packed game then a one-big-fight game though. The question you're looking for is which games involve most skill? Then almost all polls would look the same.
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On April 17 2011 07:57 DiaBoLuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 07:53 hifriend wrote:On April 17 2011 07:51 DiaBoLuS wrote:On April 17 2011 07:49 zeru wrote:On April 17 2011 07:46 DiaBoLuS wrote:On April 17 2011 07:44 KiNGxXx wrote:Poll: Recommend HasuObs vs MorroW (Game 5)?No (69) 52% Yes (56) 42% If you have time (8) 6% 133 total votes Your vote: Recommend HasuObs vs MorroW (Game 5)? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
whoever says no doesnt respect hasuobs defense :/ Hasu didnt win, morrow lost, every unit was doing its own thing. small group attacking pylon, small group trying to kill a col, small group standing around. i dont understand what you think was so impressive with his defense. ehm... he anticipated the drop perfectly, put cannons in his main before the drop happens, scouts for it permenently and puts all units on the edge where do drpo happens / puts forcefields on drop-positions to delay the drop... this is so smart, you do not even recognize how morrow lost half of his units before this "army split" that didnt changed anything, since it was over before. You and everyone else needs to recognize that a scouted drop is bound to fail in almost every situation.. ah - so the drop is "scouted" when u see a hydra-Den and 10 overlords clunched together? cmon... dont be stupid
what else do you think is gonna happen when there are 20 hydras and 10 ovies coming at your base?
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On April 17 2011 07:50 OnlineHero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 07:48 Asvhald wrote:
Zerg loses - Game not recommended
Zerg wins - Game is recommended
Why? A lot of TL members play zerg. I think all of the Sen vs Boxer games are recomended though, even the ones Sen lost.
TL.net members have always struck me as being slightly more zerg favored than the other races. I know there have been a few times day9 daily has done polls for which replay he selects and the zerg ones always win.
With Morrow vs HasuObs the games went like this:
In the games HasuObs won, it was like a sledge hammer to the face.
In the games where Morrow won, they were much closer. However, these felt like they were more because of big mistakes from both sides than anything else.
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Jesus christ some people are fucking ungrateful. These were great games, back and forth and going into game 5 of both sets, you couldn't call who would win.
Anyone calling these games 'cheese' or 'all in' are being ridiculous. Seen both creative play, good decision making and strong macro. Along with some bad ones but even pro gamers aren't perfect. What more could you want?
GG Morrow, Hasuobs, Sen and Boxer. You all kept me entertained all night. I found this to be one of the best TSL nights tbh albeit with the interruption.
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On April 17 2011 07:57 DiaBoLuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 07:53 hifriend wrote:On April 17 2011 07:51 DiaBoLuS wrote:On April 17 2011 07:49 zeru wrote:On April 17 2011 07:46 DiaBoLuS wrote:On April 17 2011 07:44 KiNGxXx wrote:Poll: Recommend HasuObs vs MorroW (Game 5)?No (69) 52% Yes (56) 42% If you have time (8) 6% 133 total votes Your vote: Recommend HasuObs vs MorroW (Game 5)? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
whoever says no doesnt respect hasuobs defense :/ Hasu didnt win, morrow lost, every unit was doing its own thing. small group attacking pylon, small group trying to kill a col, small group standing around. i dont understand what you think was so impressive with his defense. ehm... he anticipated the drop perfectly, put cannons in his main before the drop happens, scouts for it permenently and puts all units on the edge where do drpo happens / puts forcefields on drop-positions to delay the drop... this is so smart, you do not even recognize how morrow lost half of his units before this "army split" that didnt changed anything, since it was over before. You and everyone else needs to recognize that a scouted drop is bound to fail in almost every situation.. ah - so the drop is "scouted" when u see a hydra-Den and 10 overlords clunched together? cmon... dont be stupid
When your phoenix run by 10 overlords going to the back of your base followed by 10 hydras off creep and lings running in, its pretty obvious he isn't headed there for a book club.
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On April 17 2011 07:51 ZeraToss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 07:50 Beef Noodles wrote:On April 17 2011 07:48 Asvhald wrote:
Zerg loses - Game not recommended
Zerg wins - Game is recommended
Why? Cause it took something creative, crazy, or awesome for Morrow to win. Watch the games yourself. Zerg won = cool game. Toss won = kinda boring/anticlimatic well hasuobs defense was great , you have to admit
What "defense"?Morrow did nothing with that drop, it was extremely slow and he didn't do it while moving the ovies and ended up with units scattered all-around.
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On April 17 2011 07:58 Hyren wrote:
Part of me is glad that Protoss gets to feel a little of the "everyone hates us T_T" that Terran has had hanging over its head since beta.
It's even worse, because protoss hate playing other protoss xD
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On April 17 2011 07:50 busbarn wrote:Games being recommended because MorroW actually doing something hard (breaking 2-3 basing toss) Games not recommended when hasuobs just sits in base and wins no balance whine but that's actually how the games were  haha
You're giving swedes bad name for your biased bullshit. Better shut up. HasuObs isn't playing for your own entertainment, but to win. And if MorroW doesn't know how to handle "sitting in their base" protosses then he needs to gtfo from the tournament.
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On April 17 2011 07:57 DiaBoLuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 07:53 hifriend wrote:On April 17 2011 07:51 DiaBoLuS wrote:On April 17 2011 07:49 zeru wrote:On April 17 2011 07:46 DiaBoLuS wrote:On April 17 2011 07:44 KiNGxXx wrote:Poll: Recommend HasuObs vs MorroW (Game 5)?No (69) 52% Yes (56) 42% If you have time (8) 6% 133 total votes Your vote: Recommend HasuObs vs MorroW (Game 5)? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
whoever says no doesnt respect hasuobs defense :/ Hasu didnt win, morrow lost, every unit was doing its own thing. small group attacking pylon, small group trying to kill a col, small group standing around. i dont understand what you think was so impressive with his defense. ehm... he anticipated the drop perfectly, put cannons in his main before the drop happens, scouts for it permenently and puts all units on the edge where do drpo happens / puts forcefields on drop-positions to delay the drop... this is so smart, you do not even recognize how morrow lost half of his units before this "army split" that didnt changed anything, since it was over before. You and everyone else needs to recognize that a scouted drop is bound to fail in almost every situation.. ah - so the drop is "scouted" when u see a hydra-Den and 10 overlords clunched together? cmon... dont be stupid
Of course it is? It was a huge give away, I'm not trying to take anything away from hasuobs but him scouting the drop and then anticipating the direction it was coming from meant the game was over. At that point morrow could drop and lose a significant amount of units while causing hardly any damage, or he could have pulled back in which case he would have spent resources on drop/speed and on a ton of hydras vs colossi, which is about as bad a position as is possible in ZvP.
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At least when Terran was 'favoured', themost blatantly abusive games would all end in the early game, so you didn't have to watch 20 minutes of turtling.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www8.pic-upload.de/08.04.11/2b3ien9z2c9h.jpg)
