On April 13 2011 05:28 MajorityofOne wrote: As bad as PvP is, are any of you NOT rooting for MC and White-Ra to meet again in the NASL?
A rivalry is born
Not for the rivalry but because they are good, like really good and unexpected things come out of their games. Seems to bring out the best out of creative WhiteRa and pisses MC off for being the one punished for tiny mistakes for once.
Thing is, I hope it's gonna be live and not in the online part. Much more fun.
Cut the "gentlemen" and "honor" crap. You play to win. You don't handicap yourself.
The thing is, MC can have both.
He could win so much games and tournaments AND be (sometimes) a gentleman.
That would gain him so much more fans and make him even more famous and awesome.
He has won the money, everybody knows that he is able to own and win. It could be time to show people that he is also a huge baller.
Great GREAT tournament overall! I didn't thought that this small tourney on one day would be that big in the end! So amazing! I dont even know how to put that in words!
On April 13 2011 05:27 deadjon wrote: Is it okay to be let down by game 5?
It just seemed to anti-climatic to see it end due to lack of proper scouting.
Taking nothing away from either player, purely from a fan / spectator standpoint, game five was a fizzle to an overall bang of a tournament.
This is how I feel. But apparently on the Internet you are not allowed to be disappointed that game 5 of a tied bo5 series in a finals worth $15k between the 'best player in the world' and 'the best foreigner in the world' ends at 3 minutes because of a 2 gate.
This has been mention before in the thread. There is a difference between being disappointed at how the match played out and just plain blind favoritism which leads to call out MC as a noob etc. which was what a lot of people was doing.
On April 13 2011 05:27 deadjon wrote: Is it okay to be let down by game 5?
It just seemed to anti-climatic to see it end due to lack of proper scouting.
Taking nothing away from either player, purely from a fan / spectator standpoint, game five was a fizzle to an overall bang of a tournament.
This is how I feel. But apparently on the Internet you are not allowed to be disappointed that game 5 of a tied bo5 series in a finals worth $15k between the 'best player in the world' and 'the best foreigner in the world' ends at 3 minutes because of a 2 gate.
Nobody has anything against folks feeling let down by a boring/short end to the finals. Some enjoy cheese games, some don't. Preference, nothing more. It's the ragging on MC that is absurd.
On April 13 2011 05:27 deadjon wrote: Is it okay to be let down by game 5?
It just seemed to anti-climatic to see it end due to lack of proper scouting.
Taking nothing away from either player, purely from a fan / spectator standpoint, game five was a fizzle to an overall bang of a tournament.
This is how I feel. But apparently on the Internet you are not allowed to be disappointed that game 5 of a tied bo5 series in a finals worth $15k between the 'best player in the world' and 'the best foreigner in the world' ends at 3 minutes because of a 2 gate.
I don't think its fair to poopoo on MC, smart tactical play, won him a nice amount of cash. He's also amazingly dominate in the sc2 scene at the moment.
As a fan, and spectator, I can be both impressed by his decision in game 5 and disappointed I did not get to see a slug-fest between two amazing protoss.
On April 13 2011 05:13 Teacher74 wrote: The whole game was about:
Whitera didn't know there were only 2 spawn positions.
Pretty much. He must have known, but I guess its easy to forget in such a high stakes game. Having played the same map tons of times before without fixed spawn positions problably doesnt help in these tense situations either. I've seen so many tournaments and cups lately were players is seemingly unaware of fixed positions on these customized standard ladder maps, but this is the first game I've seen where it seemingly directly effected the outcome.
In this case it didn't matter that much. MC almost had this game wrapped up even before White-Ra's probe reached the 9 o'clock base. It turned a 90% victory into a 100% victory, and White-Ra knew it as he GG'd out.
Cut the "gentlemen" and "honor" crap. You play to win. You don't handicap yourself.
The thing is, MC can have both.
He could win so much games and tournaments AND be (sometimes) a gentleman.
That would gain him so much more fans and make him even more famous and awesome.
He has won the money, everybody knows that he is able to own and win. It could be time to show people that he is also a huge baller.
Great GREAT tournament overall! I didn't thought that this small tourney on one day would be that big in the end! So amazing! I dont even know how to put that in words!
THANKS SWEDEN! :D :D :D
Look at it this way... MC was being a gentleman for losing the first two games!
On April 13 2011 05:23 Slike wrote: I was actually pissed off for the first time watching a game tournament after all those years of doing so. I mean I probably shouldnt post here since this post is full of blind fanboyism but hey , here goes.
MC won fair and square. Cheese is part of the game and you play to win yada yada yada , totally agreed. However , this (last game) was not fun. Same way I wouldnt like IdrA to win MC by 6-pooling him I didnt enjoy MC proxy pyloning WR , especially not after those games. Granted , everyone was at the edge of their seats trying to see if WR scouts it , but thats mostly because they wanted him to scout it. I dont mind people liking this and cheering for it/him , but - for me - he didnt show the better player in those matches. I dont care what his record in PvP is , I dont care what his accomplishments are in GSL and the past , in this game we saw WR actually expand in PvP (!!!) and win , sneak probe into his enemies base with his whole army in there and win. Its just something different from the same old PvP 4g v 4g or 3g robo 3g blink etc.
Then again this is a strategy game and he clearly picked the best strategy in the 3 (maybe even 4) out of 5 games of the series. Its just kinda sad that this is what this matchup has turned into. Cut probes - win , expand - lose (most of the time) , basicly 1 base all-ins and cheese is what defines this matchup. Im a fan of blame blizzard not the player so thats excactly what Im doing: fix the god damn PvP matchup - its so damn annoying to watch!
Anyway thats just my oppinion on that feel free to disagree
i didnt like Incontrol proxying TLO @ MLG either, but in retrospec you gotta do what you gotta do. To the viewer it leaves a bitter taste but they are playing to win not to please/entertain us.
I dont disagree on that , I said it. I disagree with the viability of this option being there...
On April 13 2011 05:27 deadjon wrote: Is it okay to be let down by game 5?
It just seemed to anti-climatic to see it end due to lack of proper scouting.
Taking nothing away from either player, purely from a fan / spectator standpoint, game five was a fizzle to an overall bang of a tournament.
It's ok. I feel the same way
We should just have a little party for all of us that were rooting for White-ra. We can stop yelling at MC, and just come together in communal mourning for our hero's narrow defeat.
At least that would make me feel better. Get him next time Ra!
how do people put so much pressure on NASL is beyond me, how could it be like what you just saw, is there a live audience? Are the players all *real* pro level? No and no, its gonna be 2 guys talking over sc2 sounds. 50 players have been selected, not 8. I just dont see how they could attain the same level of excitement, maybe from round of 16 and onwards.
On April 13 2011 05:18 WhiteDog wrote: That's funny. Yes it's a strategy game, but like everygame, we as viewers wants to see fair game that give credit to the one who takes risk / go deeper into thinking the build he will use / varies his plays. One cheese once in a while is good and give a lot of dynamics to the series, but damn on his 3-0 run MC does a 3 gate blink on xel naga, a 4gate on crevasse and a proxy gate on shakuras. Each time he tried to go robo he lost, each time he won it was a game with less than 10 minute with only t1 units, each time he made a nexus... ho no wait HE DID NOT MAKE ANY NEXUS IN ALL 5 GAME.
It does not feel fair, it does not feel like we are seeing the best players, it does not feel like it is the deepest starcraft 2 experience we can have.
Ok, blaming MC is bad, so we gotta blame the game ?
You don't have a single clue about PvP I see. Cannon rushes and proxy gates are so common it should be regarded as standard PvP builds and 4 gate is the most common build by far. The MU is a joke and MC just plays it like it is.
On April 13 2011 05:23 Slike wrote: I was actually pissed off for the first time watching a game tournament after all those years of doing so. I mean I probably shouldnt post here since this post is full of blind fanboyism but hey , here goes.
MC won fair and square. Cheese is part of the game and you play to win yada yada yada , totally agreed. However , this (last game) was not fun. Same way I wouldnt like IdrA to win MC by 6-pooling him I didnt enjoy MC proxy pyloning WR , especially not after those games. Granted , everyone was at the edge of their seats trying to see if WR scouts it , but thats mostly because they wanted him to scout it. I dont mind people liking this and cheering for it/him , but - for me - he didnt show the better player in those matches. I dont care what his record in PvP is , I dont care what his accomplishments are in GSL and the past , in this game we saw WR actually expand in PvP (!!!) and win , sneak probe into his enemies base with his whole army in there and win. Its just something different from the same old PvP 4g v 4g or 3g robo 3g blink etc.
Then again this is a strategy game and he clearly picked the best strategy in the 3 (maybe even 4) out of 5 games of the series. Its just kinda sad that this is what this matchup has turned into. Cut probes - win , expand - lose (most of the time) , basicly 1 base all-ins and cheese is what defines this matchup. Im a fan of blame blizzard not the player so thats excactly what Im doing: fix the god damn PvP matchup - its so damn annoying to watch!
Anyway thats just my oppinion on that feel free to disagree
i didnt like Incontrol proxying TLO @ MLG either, but in retrospec you gotta do what you gotta do. To the viewer it leaves a bitter taste but they are playing to win not to please/entertain us.
I dont disagree on that , I said it. I disagree with the viability of this option being there...
Just because of this conversation, I'm going to spend all day on the ladder doing Proxies and DT Rushes.
I don't have anything against "cheeses" in games (except when it gets way too much -_____- ), and I don't mind MC doing it at this stage for reasons discussed, but I just feel a little bit disappointed that this EPIC event didn't get the EPIC ending it deserved. Congratulations to MC for his success on his first trip abroad.
On April 13 2011 05:18 WhiteDog wrote: That's funny. Yes it's a strategy game, but like everygame, we as viewers wants to see fair game that give credit to the one who takes risk / go deeper into thinking the build he will use / varies his plays. One cheese once in a while is good and give a lot of dynamics to the series, but damn on his 3-0 run MC does a 3 gate blink on xel naga, a 4gate on crevasse and a proxy gate on shakuras. Each time he tried to go robo he lost, each time he won it was a game with less than 10 minute with only t1 units, each time he made a nexus... ho no wait HE DID NOT MAKE ANY NEXUS IN ALL 5 GAME.
It does not feel fair, it does not feel like we are seeing the best players, it does not feel like it is the deepest starcraft 2 experience we can have.
Ok, blaming MC is bad, so we gotta blame the game ?
If you cannot understand the mind games involved with game 5, you simply aren't good/smart enough to appreciate the "deepest starcraft 2 experience we can have." That is all. Cheesing wasn't a last resort, desperate strategy in an attempt to beat a player he couldn't otherwise beat. It was a calculated move based on correctly reading his opponent.
Your correlation between macro games and interesting, skillful games is nothing but dumb. So you want tourney games to take place on the novice maps or something? Let's just say NR20 for tournament games? Would that be entertaining enough for you? SC2 is exciting to watch because of the constant threat of attack.
Hahahaha.
1) Having one cheese, or two in a best of five when you see / understand the weekness of your opponent and punish him with a cheese is great, I love it. The difference is in the frequence, MC is all about warp gate rush, being 4 gate, 6 gate, or whatever. Sure he is dominating, the game let him do so, and it should not, he should HAVE to varies his strategies and plays most of his games with maccro. 2) Yeah sure, "MC is so smart, he saw white-ra always skipped his zealot and always goes for a 13/14 gate (late gate) so he punished him...". But the problem is, white ra is actually doing all this to counter 4gate without having to 4gate himself, rushing to 3stalker, killing probe / pylon before letting his opponent warping units before his own eyes. So, if this build by white-ra is easy to punish like "MC" does, what's the better answer ? 4 gate every damn game.
So you want tourney games to take place on the novice maps or something?
I will let you edit that, since it's pretty boring to answer such comment.
Hmm, those aren't cheeses, most of those aren't even all-ins ... do you consider cheese any strategy that prevents you from executing that shiny printed out build you have taped to your screen in that exact order and at the exact timings?
On April 13 2011 05:30 billyX333 wrote: i wonder if all this cheese hatred is coming from players who solely play ladder? i agree, i hate ladder cheese but i love tournament cheese. bo5 is great because of all the different contexts, mind games and strategy we will never see. we dont know whats going on in a poker players head when they make wild decisions that pay off, just like we don't know whats going on in MC's head.
cheesing on ladder is stupid, but cheesing in the finals of a tournament is ballsy. 100k people watching you take a huge risk. if you lose, you look like a complete ass. if you win, you still look like an ass
IMHO, I think the cheese hatred comes from people wanting to see an epic game for the 5th game of a best-of-5 finals.
On April 13 2011 05:27 deadjon wrote: Is it okay to be let down by game 5?
It just seemed to anti-climatic to see it end due to lack of proper scouting.
Taking nothing away from either player, purely from a fan / spectator standpoint, game five was a fizzle to an overall bang of a tournament.
This is how I feel. But apparently on the Internet you are not allowed to be disappointed that game 5 of a tied bo5 series in a finals worth $15k between the 'best player in the world' and 'the best foreigner in the world' ends at 3 minutes because of a 2 gate.
That's because you don't get it.
You don't get it, that's freeking super dupper intelligent to 3 gate blink all in / 4gate rush / proxy on the last 3 game of a final. The reality is: MC could not win PvP against White-Ra in a straight maccro game / high tech oriented play (robo) so he decided he would cheese 3 games in a row and win with his superior army control / game sense. He deserved it, but the game is dumb if you can win 3 time in a row at that level of play with such nonsense 10 years old build order.
On April 12 2011 23:05 Sqq wrote: is 2gd the same guy that used to hoste that WoW show on esl ? Used to watch it every week til they removed his counter weight for reasons they wouldn't say.
Yep, and the "counter weight" would be matt "zalmah" or something like that.
Hope nobody read that
That is sheer brilliance.
First time I had seen 2gd at a StarCraft 2 event (that I remember) and it was the first time I have heard DeMusliM cast. Both were absolutely brilliant.
Great play by White.Ra, I really enjoyed the game against Jinro and Sjow and he played phenomenally against MC.
Great event, great players, great crowd, great technical team, great HQ (actual HQ not 'MLG HQ') for free, great interviews, great casters and host.
Hopefully enough time has past so this praise post won't get swamped in MC vs White.Ra woes and that any worker at DreamHack can read it and realise they have set the bar for Esports.
On April 13 2011 05:23 Slike wrote: I was actually pissed off for the first time watching a game tournament after all those years of doing so. I mean I probably shouldnt post here since this post is full of blind fanboyism but hey , here goes.
MC won fair and square. Cheese is part of the game and you play to win yada yada yada , totally agreed. However , this (last game) was not fun. Same way I wouldnt like IdrA to win MC by 6-pooling him I didnt enjoy MC proxy pyloning WR , especially not after those games. Granted , everyone was at the edge of their seats trying to see if WR scouts it , but thats mostly because they wanted him to scout it. I dont mind people liking this and cheering for it/him , but - for me - he didnt show the better player in those matches. I dont care what his record in PvP is , I dont care what his accomplishments are in GSL and the past , in this game we saw WR actually expand in PvP (!!!) and win , sneak probe into his enemies base with his whole army in there and win. Its just something different from the same old PvP 4g v 4g or 3g robo 3g blink etc.
Then again this is a strategy game and he clearly picked the best strategy in the 3 (maybe even 4) out of 5 games of the series. Its just kinda sad that this is what this matchup has turned into. Cut probes - win , expand - lose (most of the time) , basicly 1 base all-ins and cheese is what defines this matchup. Im a fan of blame blizzard not the player so thats excactly what Im doing: fix the god damn PvP matchup - its so damn annoying to watch!
Anyway thats just my oppinion on that feel free to disagree
i didnt like Incontrol proxying TLO @ MLG either, but in retrospec you gotta do what you gotta do. To the viewer it leaves a bitter taste but they are playing to win not to please/entertain us.
I dont disagree on that , I said it. I disagree with the viability of this option being there...
I don't have the quote handy, but I believe it was David Kim (or someone) who mentioned they like having some of these early aggression (aka cheesy) tactics in the game to make sure all players are on the edge of their seats from the get-go.
I am not sure how I feel about that idea. On one hand, it could be very boring to watch a few minutes of every map play out the very say in every game. On the other hand, it's not enjoyable, for me at least, to watch cheesy tactics or bad scouting decide tournament play. But that's an argument of preference, which nobody wins.
On April 13 2011 05:23 Slike wrote: I was actually pissed off for the first time watching a game tournament after all those years of doing so. I mean I probably shouldnt post here since this post is full of blind fanboyism but hey , here goes.
MC won fair and square. Cheese is part of the game and you play to win yada yada yada , totally agreed. However , this (last game) was not fun. Same way I wouldnt like IdrA to win MC by 6-pooling him I didnt enjoy MC proxy pyloning WR , especially not after those games. Granted , everyone was at the edge of their seats trying to see if WR scouts it , but thats mostly because they wanted him to scout it. I dont mind people liking this and cheering for it/him , but - for me - he didnt show the better player in those matches. I dont care what his record in PvP is , I dont care what his accomplishments are in GSL and the past , in this game we saw WR actually expand in PvP (!!!) and win , sneak probe into his enemies base with his whole army in there and win. Its just something different from the same old PvP 4g v 4g or 3g robo 3g blink etc.
Then again this is a strategy game and he clearly picked the best strategy in the 3 (maybe even 4) out of 5 games of the series. Its just kinda sad that this is what this matchup has turned into. Cut probes - win , expand - lose (most of the time) , basicly 1 base all-ins and cheese is what defines this matchup. Im a fan of blame blizzard not the player so thats excactly what Im doing: fix the god damn PvP matchup - its so damn annoying to watch!
Anyway thats just my oppinion on that feel free to disagree
i didnt like Incontrol proxying TLO @ MLG either, but in retrospec you gotta do what you gotta do. To the viewer it leaves a bitter taste but they are playing to win not to please/entertain us.
I dont disagree on that , I said it. I disagree with the viability of this option being there...
Just because of this conversation, I'm going to spend all day on the ladder doing Proxies and DT Rushes.
Go ahead by all means but it won't improve you as a player which is the point of your practice, isn't it?
EPT
