On April 13 2011 05:17 Hot_Bid wrote: One of the most epic games ever in BW was the one in the OSL finals where Boxer SCV+Marine rushed yellow. Crazy stuff happens.
This DH finals game 5 could have been awesome had WR not scouted a position where MC could not have spawned. He might have defended and turned the game into a really fun situation.
QFT! I never get why people in sc2 hate cheese THAT much in box tournament series. In bw lr threads their is so much hype if someone pulls out a well executed cheese and the defender tries to hang in their. In sc2 lr threads their's just hate.
Sorry if this opinion is offensive: Everyone plays the game now, everyone gets cheesed and cries after each proxy gate/rax/6pool so everyone hates them with a passion, except when they do it, and most of them do it on the ladder where it's nothing but a coin toss with no actual decision/thinking involved. When it's performed with a reason, within a set strategy by a player that's proven himself of being extremely good they are incapable of seeing beyond their own tear flooded memories.
On April 13 2011 05:16 Feos wrote: ok, i really searched some time now... can anyone tell me what the name of that protoss song was? in the video you could see how a toss army FFs a zerg army and storms the shit out of them ^^
On April 13 2011 05:09 Spicy Pepper wrote: Some of the people bashing MC on Shakuras also cheered Dimaga against Nestea on Xelnaga. Both were calculated gambles by smart players, exploiting a weakness in their opponent.
This, foreigner goggles much? So now only foreigners are allowed to cheese? And when a korean cheeses its all "Aw he has no skill has to rely on cheese" Jeez, the amount of bias here is baffling.
Dimaga's was way better calculated then MC's. Dimaga knew from watching games from Nestea that he doesn't scout when he 14 hatches(wich he does in 90 percent of his games), so he just went for the all in and it worked.
MC's was better calculated. He knows that White-Ra can't beat his 4-gate. He screwed around the first 2 games to entertain the foreigner-biased fans until he was 1 loss away from elimination before busting out the 4-gate.
In MC's case especially: he is the GOD Protoss. Yet, so mortally afraid of White-Ra that he resorts to a "cheap" tactics to win. I don't blame him for 4-gating, blink stalkers or anything: that is and has been the name of the game wrt PvP for months now. The people saying that White-Ra was being greedy and could've stopped the proxy gate if he had scouted, chrono boosted out a zealot, etc. are obviously correct: with 20-20 hindsight anybody can stop a proxy. However, the fact of the matter is that if you take all the precautions all the time you will lose in a straight up 4gate battle. Therefore, White-RA didn't check and lost to the proxy. It is a cheap tactic. Players of top quality should have confidence enough to duke out the final match "like men". It's not a Nash equilibrium, but it is the gentlemanly thing to do. Neither Suàrez, nor MC are gentlemen.
Yet that "duke it out like men" mentality does not have a place in sports, especially eSports. Money is on the line you do what you can to win. There is no honor or "code" to abide by; winning is all that matters. Cheesing, whether it entertains you or not, is completely viable and fair. If you won't stoop to the level of cheesing every now and then (or doing gimmick builds) you will never win consistently. If you only cheese and do gimmick builds you will never win consistently either.
If anything, you guys should be giving respect to MC for taking a $15,000 risk like that. All it would take is him to be scouted and WhiteRa would have had the money. That takes balls. Really big balls. That is not only manly, but well played, too. MC played a mind game (after all you would hardly expect someone to cheese in the final match with big money on the line) and it paid off for him in the end. Literally.
Cut the "gentlemen" and "honor" crap. You play to win. You don't handicap yourself.
On April 13 2011 05:18 WhiteDog wrote: That's funny. Yes it's a strategy game, but like everygame, we as viewers wants to see fair game that give credit to the one who takes risk / go deeper into thinking the build he will use / varies his plays. One cheese once in a while is good and give a lot of dynamics to the series, but damn on his 3-0 run MC does a 3 gate blink on xel naga, a 4gate on crevasse and a proxy gate on shakuras. Each time he tried to go robo he lost, each time he won it was a game with less than 10 minute with only t1 units, each time he made a nexus... ho no wait HE DID NOT MAKE ANY NEXUS IN ALL 5 GAME.
It does not feel fair, it does not feel like we are seeing the best players, it does not feel like it is the deepest starcraft 2 experience we can have.
Ok, blaming MC is bad, so we gotta blame the game ?
If you cannot understand the mind games involved with game 5, you simply aren't good/smart enough to appreciate the "deepest starcraft 2 experience we can have." That is all. Cheesing wasn't a last resort, desperate strategy in an attempt to beat a player he couldn't otherwise beat. It was a calculated move based on correctly reading his opponent.
Your correlation between macro games and interesting, skillful games is nothing but dumb. So you want tourney games to take place on the novice maps or something? Let's just say NR20 for tournament games? Would that be entertaining enough for you? SC2 is exciting to watch because of the constant threat of attack.
Hahahaha.
1) Having one cheese, or two in a best of five when you see / understand the weekness of your opponent and punish him with a cheese is great, I love it. The difference is in the frequence, MC is all about warp gate rush, being 4 gate, 6 gate, or whatever. Sure he is dominating, the game let him do so, and it should not, he should HAVE to varies his strategies and plays most of his games with maccro. 2) Yeah sure, "MC is so smart, he saw white-ra always skipped his zealot and always goes for a 13/14 gate (late gate) so he punished him...". But the problem is, white ra is actually doing all this to counter 4gate without having to 4gate himself, rushing to 3stalker, killing probe / pylon before letting his opponent warping units before his own eyes. So, if this build by white-ra is easy to punish like "MC" does, what's the better answer ? 4 gate every damn game.
So you want tourney games to take place on the novice maps or something?
I will let you edit that, since it's pretty boring to answer such comment.
I feel like White-Ra was the real winner in this tournament , just because he did so well against MC shame there wasnt a bigger 2nd place prize, MC is sick good though.
Overall best tournament so far imo, The presenter was great and apollo and demuslim should cast more often. Tbh i was just pleased to see some Brits on the eSports scene for once. The stream was fantastic, the crowd/arena etc and the players and the games. Everything was great cant fault it really hopefully tournaments to come can learn something from this (mlg mlg) and also if the NASL is this good well.. :p
On April 13 2011 05:23 Slike wrote: I was actually pissed off for the first time watching a game tournament after all those years of doing so. I mean I probably shouldnt post here since this post is full of blind fanboyism but hey , here goes.
MC won fair and square. Cheese is part of the game and you play to win yada yada yada , totally agreed. However , this (last game) was not fun. Same way I wouldnt like IdrA to win MC by 6-pooling him I didnt enjoy MC proxy pyloning WR , especially not after those games. Granted , everyone was at the edge of their seats trying to see if WR scouts it , but thats mostly because they wanted him to scout it. I dont mind people liking this and cheering for it/him , but - for me - he didnt show the better player in those matches. I dont care what his record in PvP is , I dont care what his accomplishments are in GSL and the past , in this game we saw WR actually expand in PvP (!!!) and win , sneak probe into his enemies base with his whole army in there and win. Its just something different from the same old PvP 4g v 4g or 3g robo 3g blink etc.
Then again this is a strategy game and he clearly picked the best strategy in the 3 (maybe even 4) out of 5 games of the series. Its just kinda sad that this is what this matchup has turned into. Cut probes - win , expand - lose (most of the time) , basicly 1 base all-ins and cheese is what defines this matchup. Im a fan of blame blizzard not the player so thats excactly what Im doing: fix the god damn PvP matchup - its so damn annoying to watch!
Anyway thats just my oppinion on that feel free to disagree
i didnt like Incontrol proxying TLO @ MLG either, but in retrospec you gotta do what you gotta do. To the viewer it leaves a bitter taste but they are playing to win not to please/entertain us.
i wonder if all this cheese hatred is coming from players who solely play ladder? i agree, i hate ladder cheese but i love tournament cheese. bo5 is great because of all the different contexts, mind games and strategy we will never see or understand. we dont know whats going on in a poker players head when they make wild decisions that pay off, just like we don't know whats going on in MC's head.
cheesing on ladder is stupid, but cheesing in the finals of a tournament is ballsy. 100k people watching you take a huge risk. if you lose, you look like a complete ass. if you win, you still look like an ass
On April 13 2011 04:42 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I don't get it.. have you all forgotten this is a strategy game?
Did you enjoy it when this happened?
Really, people have a right to be upset if we are robbed of a great finish yeah? But MC won grats to him.
Well said Halvorg. No offence Naz, I just think that both sides of this argument are represented well by this. MC did what he chose to to win and it worked and thats great, but I understand how one could be disappointed by that
The video show something that is illegal tactics. What did mc do that was illegal against the rule of the game?
Holy fuck did you just show me an example of cheating to compare the situations?
My IQ just dropped to 50 trying to understand your point. These situations are NOTHING alike. Trying to win and trying to win by cheating are two different worlds buddy.
Actually, it's not illegal. You get a red card and a penalty and that's it. In football if there is an attacker running alone and the last defender can't catch up, it's usually advisable to foul him. You get a red card, but they will just get a penalty kick. What he meant is that it's anti-climax I think, it would be "cheating" only if the ref hadn't seen it and even that would have been considered something you just have to use (as it can go both ways).
Yeah, it's not actually illegal and it was definitely the right move for Suarez to do considering the situation. However, being a huge Ghanaian fan watching that made me feel like killing something. I didn't sleep well that night.
The point is that he did something really lame in order to give his team a chance to win. You play to win and they did win because of it, but still I think people were disappointed.
On April 13 2011 05:27 deadjon wrote: Is it okay to be let down by game 5?
It just seemed to anti-climatic to see it end due to lack of proper scouting.
Taking nothing away from either player, purely from a fan / spectator standpoint, game five was a fizzle to an overall bang of a tournament.
This is how I feel. But apparently on the Internet you are not allowed to be disappointed that game 5 of a tied bo5 series in a finals worth $15k between the 'best player in the world' and 'the best foreigner in the world' ends at 3 minutes because of a 2 gate.
All-ins add an exciting variety to the game. I thought the last game was quite exciting, watching White-Ras probe just barely miss vision of the pylon.
Macro games are not always more entertaining. If players agree to no rush 15 that would be boring and they might as well be playing BGH.
In my opinion, well-executed cheese that has you on the edge of your seat is much more entertaining than a standard 4-gate, 3-gate robo, or collosus laser wars PvP. The people that are complaining about it are probably just upset their favorite player lost and choosing to vent their anger on the game itself rather than the result. There is a severe case of if a foreigner does it, "YAAAAAAAY!!!! Amazing game sense taking advantage of his opponenet being greedy!" (e.g. Dimaga vs. Nestea), but if a Korean does it, "Boo, the most proven and arguably best player in the world must be too afraid to play a normal game!"
Do people not see how mind-meltingly stupid that makes them sound?
On April 12 2011 23:05 Sqq wrote: is 2gd the same guy that used to hoste that WoW show on esl ? Used to watch it every week til they removed his counter weight for reasons they wouldn't say.
Yep, and the "counter weight" would be matt "zalmah" or something like that.
Hope nobody read that
That is sheer brilliance.
First time I had seen 2gd at a StarCraft 2 event (that I remember) and it was the first time I have heard DeMusliM cast. Both were absolutely brilliant.
Great play by White.Ra, I really enjoyed the game against Jinro and Sjow and he played phenomenally against MC.
Great event, great players, great crowd, great technical team, great HQ (actual HQ not 'MLG HQ') for free, great interviews, great casters and host.
Hopefully enough time has past so this praise post won't get swamped in MC vs White.Ra woes and that any worker at DreamHack can read it and realise they have set the bar for Esports.
I think MC actually did slightly go out of his way to be entertaining. In 5 games, he went for 5 different strategies. He did not 4gate on Taldarim Altar and would have held off WR's 4 gate if he had the stalkers a bit closer to the front/a bit further in the north. In the second game he went Observer -> Blink which can make for really great games but got caught offguard by White-Ra being extremely greedy with Nexus + Robo Bay + Probes.
Then he 4-gated and punished White-Ra for building 28 probes, after which he went for a really well-executed Blink-attack (where White-Ra had 28 probes again) in the 4th game. While the proxy gates did not make for an exciting game, he just abused loopholes in WR's scout pattern. You don't have to like his attitude or his playstyle, but saying that White-Ra is the clearly better player is very ignorant.
On April 13 2011 05:27 deadjon wrote: Is it okay to be let down by game 5?
It just seemed to anti-climatic to see it end due to lack of proper scouting.
Taking nothing away from either player, purely from a fan / spectator standpoint, game five was a fizzle to an overall bang of a tournament.
Nah, not okay. Youre a bad person and doesnt understand SC2 at all. You shouldnt be on this page really, get out nobrainer!
OR
Yeah, atleast for me (and you) it was kinda anti-climatic and I feel abit let down (even though its starting to wear off, just thinking about the awesome tournament makes me happy again) but nevertheless MC deserved to win, gg to him.
I dont get why ppl should feel bad for not liking the way this tournament ended.
On April 13 2011 05:27 deadjon wrote: Is it okay to be let down by game 5?
It just seemed to anti-climatic to see it end due to lack of proper scouting.
Taking nothing away from either player, purely from a fan / spectator standpoint, game five was a fizzle to an overall bang of a tournament.
This is how I feel. But apparently on the Internet you are not allowed to be disappointed that game 5 of a tied bo5 series in a finals worth $15k between the 'best player in the world' and 'the best foreigner in the world' ends at 3 minutes because of a 2 gate.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll239/MajorGizmo/Cheesemaster.jpg)
