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On December 19 2010 02:12 arterian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2010 01:43 decaf wrote:
It's not the race that wins, it's the player.
If MC was playing Terran and Rain Protoss, Terran would have won. So nerf terran QQ.
The game is almost perfectly balanced. It is unbelievable how balanced this game already is, they did an amazing job. But I think 10 sec build time decrease for phoenixes may be overkill. The 10 second build time decrease is because currently if you were to watch a Zerg player throw down a Spire and responded immediately by dropping a Stargate, you can only get out 1 Phoenix by the time it finishes at which point he'll start building X amount of Mutas, usually more than 6.
lol what? If I ever drop down a spire and plan on going muta's he'll easily have 2+ phoenix's and you don't want to make muta once you see phoenix because phoenix can kite muta's forever lolol.
But as for MC he's a beast he has amazing defense and just can't believe how well he played ^^
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On December 18 2010 21:04 Chocobo wrote:
I really can't understand the hate here. Everything that isn't a super defensive, take 3 bases and mass up to 200/200 game is called "cheese" and everyone pretends that it wasn't any fun to watch.
Sorry guys, there's 87 thousand dollars on the line and the players are going to choose to use the gameplans that they feel will make them the most likely to win. The purpose of these games is not your entertainment, it's to determine the winner of the tournament.
Rain pulls off a very well executed tank-heavy timing attack in game 1, and MC very skillfully deflects it in a game that everyone on these forums would have lost. I thought it was very exciting, and forum posters are just complaining "one base cheese" and "no skill".
On Xel'naga Caverns, Rain completely throws off his opponent with a clever fake-out, cripples MC with banshees... but holy crap, MC is actually somehow defending it! It's just barely not good enough though, and Rain grabs the win in a game I thoroughly enjoyed. I check the forums and see "lame cheeser" "that's the only way Rain can win".
On Steppes, MC gets scouted while trying to proxy, but just goes for it anyway. I never thought I'd see a game like this at a pro level, and was shocked to see how powerful it is. This game was both entertaining AND educational... if I ever play PvT on Steppes I have to try this in-your-face proxy, it seems completely unbeatable for anyone but the best pros in the world. But of course, the forum posts are nothing but hate.
I loved watching all of these games and was hoping to find excited comments from other people who were also enjoying them, but this thread turned into nothing but a pile of whining and hating (with some exceptions of course). If I wanted to read stuff like this I'd read the comments on games on Youtube. I really wish the mods would get strict again, and deal with this mess.
Well, thank goodness there was at least no balance discussion tonight. And I'd like to thank the minority of TL posters who made reading this thread worthwhile.
Game 2 was just awesome, best PvT game of SC2 to date, this was a great GSL Finals if yo uask me...
I couldn't agree more with what you have said. Personally, I find cheese and aggression to be more exciting to watch.
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congratz MC, a deserved win and happy you can take the cup home to the oGs house!
First 3 games were great, very dissapointed however in the last 2... cheese, didn't expect that from the player who said 'he will show more interesting games..'. Not interesting at all imo. Than again it's part of the game and MC cleary showed he's the better played in game 1 and 2. Though give it up for Rain on game 3, beautifull!
GG's can't wait for 2011 :-D
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Worst GSL of all times, only thing that saved it was Jinros impressive run, MC and Rain both looked mediocre to me, and I was feeling like I wanted my money back by the time Rain GGs in game 5
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On December 19 2010 01:11 lowercase wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2010 01:05 junemermaid wrote:On December 18 2010 23:02 Markwerf wrote:On December 18 2010 22:49 SC2Real wrote:On December 18 2010 22:37 Samus wrote:
The matchup is just broken (PvT)
Terran has to end the game early or they'll lose.
Rain was probably going to lose anyways regardless of his race, Made alot of noobie mistakes.
Pulled off some nice tactics though on certain maps. you're so wrong.. the problem is that most terran refuse to build up a lategame army. watch painusers transition into banshee/thor to see some kickass lategame T. That painuser composition is complete crap and only worked well because his opponents didn't adapt well to it. A properly upgraded gateway army completely stomps it and banshee play is simply not good at all lategame (way to easily countered with HT and/or phoenix). Also the patch is making this even worse by buffing phoenix and observers and nerfing thor repair. Lategame bio works alright with the proper micro, but I do think battlecruisers need to be restored to their old stats making them a viable lategame transition in PvT. It just doesn't make sense to have BC's still suck so hard while in the only matchup where they would be viable (as in TvZ and TvT they suck even more) their counter gets buffed. Voidray buff vs massive should easily compensate for a slight BC buff vs ground again. I don't think MMM works as well as people think it does. After a certain point, Terran players need to transition out of it and into a more effective unit composition (I'm not a Terran player so I won't speculate much on what that composition is). The proof is in the results of competitive games. Terran players definitely need to transition into different compositions and adapt to what Protoss players are doing. Blue flame hellions seem to be necessary for Terran to stop zealots / storms late game. It is a cheap, high dps, good splash damage, and easily massable unit that is sparsely seen in PvT games. The problem with bio is that it is all direct damage & no splash or AoE. What this results in is that other armies have tons of splash mid --> late game (zerg has banelings / ultralisks / infestors; toss has colossi & templars) so that it dumps a ton of damage early in the battle. This has the effect of minimizing MMMs ability to deal out its constant high dps. Terran need to mix in their own damage dumping units & abilities as well: ghosts, hellions, raven HSM (but that ability kind of sucks after the radius nerf). Terran kind of got the shitty end of the stick when it comes to splash damage. Tanks: yeah they're good, but they are expensive, and its hard NOT to lose them in a confrontation (it has the immortal syndrome where it has a difficult time retreating if a battle goes south & they are priority targets). MMM is definitely a crutch that terran players have relied on so long, and now it's a hinderance. Protoss was doing shit until players finally stopped doing stalker/colossus every game. Terran players are stuck in MMM and until they can transition from it into something else, their play will be predictable, and therefore counterable. Problem is... once you've built all those raxes, what do you do with them afterwards? Edit: Also, wtf are you thinking T has the worst splash damage? Tanks, hellions, HSM, EMP, and thor air splash (the only air splash). P has colossus and HT. Zerg has banes, ultras, mutas, and fungal. T definitely has the best splash, and they have the great perk in that every single unit they have is ranged. I will shut up now, because I don't want to balance bitch.
Yeah, I think I used too many strong words in there. I think my main gripe is that Terran players aren't using the aoe units very effectively. I don't think they have the best splash units in the game. They might have the MOST (which feeds into their versatility), but not the best.
Maybe Terran players shouldn't make so many barracks and SET THEMSELVES UP for the late game. Maybe 3rax / 2factory would be much better than 5-6rax. After the 15 minute mark, those 5-6 raxes aren't very good against a tier 3 protoss army.
It's a complicated situation, so we'll just have to see how the game develops during the GSL tour... But I don't think making tons of bio and forcing a win through that is what we'll be seeing in the near future.
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On December 19 2010 02:34 D10 wrote:
Worst GSL of all times, only thing that saved it was Jinros impressive run, MC and Rain both looked mediocre to me, and I was feeling like I wanted my money back by the time Rain GGs in game 5
Excuse me? MC is looking more like the most impressive Protoss around by far. Are you sure you weren't accidentally watching VODs of HongUn vs Rain in the Ro4?
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I don't get why Terrans are whining about balance.Rain didn't lose because his strategy was poor. He lost because his execution wasn't good. TSL really prepared a very good strategy for Rain to execute and in the hands of a better player, those strategies would have resulted in a victory. I really don't see the need to overhaul how Terran is played. Just refine those strategies and execute it better.
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On December 19 2010 02:12 arterian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2010 01:43 decaf wrote:
It's not the race that wins, it's the player.
If MC was playing Terran and Rain Protoss, Terran would have won. So nerf terran QQ.
The game is almost perfectly balanced. It is unbelievable how balanced this game already is, they did an amazing job. But I think 10 sec build time decrease for phoenixes may be overkill. The 10 second build time decrease is because currently if you were to watch a Zerg player throw down a Spire and responded immediately by dropping a Stargate, you can only get out 1 Phoenix by the time it finishes at which point he'll start building X amount of Mutas, usually more than 6.
I hate this excuse because you could never match production of Corsairs with the initial wave of Mutas either. What did you do? Baby them around cannons until you had the magic number where the tables completely turned. It became part of the ebb and flow of PvZ, can the Protoss get the right amount of sairs or can the Zerg pick enough off while they are weak so that he can stay on muta?
And that was even going Stargate blind where you couldn't match muta production. SC2 Protoss make the claim that they can't add a stargate after they have scouted lair or spire and then complain they can't match muta numbers off the bat. Even BW players use this excuse, it just doesn't make much sense to me. The only real difference is the sentry cost makes it hard to do some standard Muta defense and add Phoenix, but there's got to be some way to treat it like Corsair vs Muta.
Phoenix could be played in an identical manner. With the right number they are almost as good as Corsairs were when it comes to dealing with Mutas
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On December 19 2010 02:53 kheldorin wrote:
I don't get why Terrans are whining about balance.Rain didn't lose because his strategy was poor. He lost because his execution wasn't good. TSL really prepared a very good strategy for Rain to execute and in the hands of a better player, those strategies would have resulted in a victory. I really don't see the need to overhaul how Terran is played. Just refine those strategies and execute it better.
this. as a terran player I actually liked the series. I can't wait for someone actually good to play terran and start owning face. Rain just didn't play very well, but he had some sweet builds.
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On December 18 2010 21:04 Chocobo wrote:
I really can't understand the hate here. Everything that isn't a super defensive, take 3 bases and mass up to 200/200 game is called "cheese" and everyone pretends that it wasn't any fun to watch.
Sorry guys, there's 87 thousand dollars on the line and the players are going to choose to use the gameplans that they feel will make them the most likely to win. The purpose of these games is not your entertainment, it's to determine the winner of the tournament.
Rain pulls off a very well executed tank-heavy timing attack in game 1, and MC very skillfully deflects it in a game that everyone on these forums would have lost. I thought it was very exciting, and forum posters are just complaining "one base cheese" and "no skill".
On Xel'naga Caverns, Rain completely throws off his opponent with a clever fake-out, cripples MC with banshees... but holy crap, MC is actually somehow defending it! It's just barely not good enough though, and Rain grabs the win in a game I thoroughly enjoyed. I check the forums and see "lame cheeser" "that's the only way Rain can win".
On Steppes, MC gets scouted while trying to proxy, but just goes for it anyway. I never thought I'd see a game like this at a pro level, and was shocked to see how powerful it is. This game was both entertaining AND educational... if I ever play PvT on Steppes I have to try this in-your-face proxy, it seems completely unbeatable for anyone but the best pros in the world. But of course, the forum posts are nothing but hate.
I loved watching all of these games and was hoping to find excited comments from other people who were also enjoying them, but this thread turned into nothing but a pile of whining and hating (with some exceptions of course). If I wanted to read stuff like this I'd read the comments on games on Youtube. I really wish the mods would get strict again, and deal with this mess.
Well, thank goodness there was at least no balance discussion tonight. And I'd like to thank the minority of TL posters who made reading this thread worthwhile.
Game 2 was just awesome, best PvT game of SC2 to date, this was a great GSL Finals if yo uask me...
Thanks for this post. I'm sick of tired of everything that isn't a 30+ minute macro game being labeled as "all in" or "cheese" here on TL and elsewhere as well.
I enjoyed the finals, the games were exciting to watch. And I certainly wouldn't have wanted to watch 7x30 minutes of gaming + ad breaks.
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i just saw, Game 4 and unlike what Artosis says, there is a different Cost efficitient way to deal with proxy gateway. Though nobody (even Pros) don't seem to have realized it yet,i just came across the counter while testing.
maybe i should make a thread about it.
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This results make no sense to me... How has Rain won a single game ? oO
Bancheese ???
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On December 19 2010 03:07 mr_tolkien wrote:
This results make no sense to me... How has Rain won a single game ? oO
Bancheese ???
kinda. cancel 2 rax and tech to cloak banshee
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good finals, but man... theres like no emotion by the players in the ceremony 
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On December 19 2010 03:03 Shockk wrote:
And I certainly wouldn't have wanted to watch 7x30 minutes of gaming + ad breaks.
i would've =\
On December 19 2010 03:16 TheSCII wrote:good finals, but man... theres like no emotion by the players in the ceremony
with MC's arrogance i was expecting him to pull a firebathero after he won
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That was 100% what I expected. I'm still angry that Rain ever made it as far as he did.
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another great GSL, cant wait til next year.
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I actually enjoyed seeing MC totally own Rain. I've missed awesome protoss play, and it was just poetic how he out-cheesed Rain to end it!
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these boring ceremonies totally reinforce the nerd stereotype.
MC smacked rain. wasn't even close. even the game he lost, he clearly looked like the better player.
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EPT
