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[GSL] S3 Grand Finals - Page 224

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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Vauld
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada73 Posts
December 18 2010 15:59 GMT
#4461
It's always great when so many people are post so many Useful and Relevant statistics that don't mean anything, cause then any actual discussion becomes nonexistent.
mothergoose729
Profile Joined December 2010
United States666 Posts
December 18 2010 16:00 GMT
#4462
Terran won the dreamhack tournament in sweden. Naama took it in a 3-2 series against protoss, and pretty much all of their games went late game. One thing you didn't see much from in Rains play or Jinros play is heavy tanks strategies. Naaama had tank lines going down half the map, it made it so that even when the opponent cut into the back there were always tanks out of reach firing and getting sick splash damage. I don't think the level of competition in dreamhack was quite as good as GSL, those guys really are the best player in the world IMO. There is still a lot more strategies terran might be able to pull into the late game, the problem is terran aggression has been so successful and that part of the game is so underdeveloped. If you look at how much tech was exploited by both players in game two, protoss had HT, DT, blink stalker, chargelots, carriers, void rays, immortals and collossus. Rain mainly used MM, tanks, ravens, and ghosts. I can only imagine what some good banshees, thors, or even battle cruisers might have done to swing the balance in game two.
junemermaid
Profile Joined September 2006
United States981 Posts
December 18 2010 16:05 GMT
#4463
On December 18 2010 23:02 Markwerf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2010 22:49 SC2Real wrote:
On December 18 2010 22:37 Samus wrote:
The matchup is just broken (PvT)
Terran has to end the game early or they'll lose.
Rain was probably going to lose anyways regardless of his race, Made alot of noobie mistakes.
Pulled off some nice tactics though on certain maps.


you're so wrong..

the problem is that most terran refuse to build up a lategame army.
watch painusers transition into banshee/thor to see some kickass lategame T.



That painuser composition is complete crap and only worked well because his opponents didn't adapt well to it. A properly upgraded gateway army completely stomps it and banshee play is simply not good at all lategame (way to easily countered with HT and/or phoenix). Also the patch is making this even worse by buffing phoenix and observers and nerfing thor repair.

Lategame bio works alright with the proper micro, but I do think battlecruisers need to be restored to their old stats making them a viable lategame transition in PvT. It just doesn't make sense to have BC's still suck so hard while in the only matchup where they would be viable (as in TvZ and TvT they suck even more) their counter gets buffed. Voidray buff vs massive should easily compensate for a slight BC buff vs ground again.


I don't think MMM works as well as people think it does. After a certain point, Terran players need to transition out of it and into a more effective unit composition (I'm not a Terran player so I won't speculate much on what that composition is). The proof is in the results of competitive games. Terran players definitely need to transition into different compositions and adapt to what Protoss players are doing. Blue flame hellions seem to be necessary for Terran to stop zealots / storms late game. It is a cheap, high dps, good splash damage, and easily massable unit that is sparsely seen in PvT games.

The problem with bio is that it is all direct damage & no splash or AoE. What this results in is that other armies have tons of splash mid --> late game (zerg has banelings / ultralisks / infestors; toss has colossi & templars) so that it dumps a ton of damage early in the battle. This has the effect of minimizing MMMs ability to deal out its constant high dps.

Terran need to mix in their own damage dumping units & abilities as well: ghosts, hellions, raven HSM (but that ability kind of sucks after the radius nerf). Terran kind of got the shitty end of the stick when it comes to splash damage. Tanks: yeah they're good, but they are expensive, and its hard NOT to lose them in a confrontation (it has the immortal syndrome where it has a difficult time retreating if a battle goes south & they are priority targets).
the UMP says YER OUT
lowercase
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1047 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-18 16:15:01
December 18 2010 16:11 GMT
#4464
On December 19 2010 01:05 junemermaid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2010 23:02 Markwerf wrote:
On December 18 2010 22:49 SC2Real wrote:
On December 18 2010 22:37 Samus wrote:
The matchup is just broken (PvT)
Terran has to end the game early or they'll lose.
Rain was probably going to lose anyways regardless of his race, Made alot of noobie mistakes.
Pulled off some nice tactics though on certain maps.


you're so wrong..

the problem is that most terran refuse to build up a lategame army.
watch painusers transition into banshee/thor to see some kickass lategame T.



That painuser composition is complete crap and only worked well because his opponents didn't adapt well to it. A properly upgraded gateway army completely stomps it and banshee play is simply not good at all lategame (way to easily countered with HT and/or phoenix). Also the patch is making this even worse by buffing phoenix and observers and nerfing thor repair.

Lategame bio works alright with the proper micro, but I do think battlecruisers need to be restored to their old stats making them a viable lategame transition in PvT. It just doesn't make sense to have BC's still suck so hard while in the only matchup where they would be viable (as in TvZ and TvT they suck even more) their counter gets buffed. Voidray buff vs massive should easily compensate for a slight BC buff vs ground again.


I don't think MMM works as well as people think it does. After a certain point, Terran players need to transition out of it and into a more effective unit composition (I'm not a Terran player so I won't speculate much on what that composition is). The proof is in the results of competitive games. Terran players definitely need to transition into different compositions and adapt to what Protoss players are doing. Blue flame hellions seem to be necessary for Terran to stop zealots / storms late game. It is a cheap, high dps, good splash damage, and easily massable unit that is sparsely seen in PvT games.

The problem with bio is that it is all direct damage & no splash or AoE. What this results in is that other armies have tons of splash mid --> late game (zerg has banelings / ultralisks / infestors; toss has colossi & templars) so that it dumps a ton of damage early in the battle. This has the effect of minimizing MMMs ability to deal out its constant high dps.

Terran need to mix in their own damage dumping units & abilities as well: ghosts, hellions, raven HSM (but that ability kind of sucks after the radius nerf). Terran kind of got the shitty end of the stick when it comes to splash damage. Tanks: yeah they're good, but they are expensive, and its hard NOT to lose them in a confrontation (it has the immortal syndrome where it has a difficult time retreating if a battle goes south & they are priority targets).


MMM is definitely a crutch that terran players have relied on so long, and now it's a hinderance. Protoss was doing shit until players finally stopped doing stalker/colossus every game. Terran players are stuck in MMM and until they can transition from it into something else, their play will be predictable, and therefore counterable.

Problem is... once you've built all those raxes, what do you do with them afterwards?

Edit: Also, wtf are you thinking T has the worst splash damage? Tanks, hellions, HSM, EMP, and thor air splash (the only air splash). P has colossus and HT. Zerg has banes, ultras, mutas, and fungal. T definitely has the best splash, and they have the great perk in that every single unit they have is ranged. I will shut up now, because I don't want to balance bitch.
That is not dead which can eternal lie...
mothergoose729
Profile Joined December 2010
United States666 Posts
December 18 2010 16:12 GMT
#4465
On December 19 2010 01:11 lowercase wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2010 01:05 junemermaid wrote:
On December 18 2010 23:02 Markwerf wrote:
On December 18 2010 22:49 SC2Real wrote:
On December 18 2010 22:37 Samus wrote:
The matchup is just broken (PvT)
Terran has to end the game early or they'll lose.
Rain was probably going to lose anyways regardless of his race, Made alot of noobie mistakes.
Pulled off some nice tactics though on certain maps.


you're so wrong..

the problem is that most terran refuse to build up a lategame army.
watch painusers transition into banshee/thor to see some kickass lategame T.



That painuser composition is complete crap and only worked well because his opponents didn't adapt well to it. A properly upgraded gateway army completely stomps it and banshee play is simply not good at all lategame (way to easily countered with HT and/or phoenix). Also the patch is making this even worse by buffing phoenix and observers and nerfing thor repair.

Lategame bio works alright with the proper micro, but I do think battlecruisers need to be restored to their old stats making them a viable lategame transition in PvT. It just doesn't make sense to have BC's still suck so hard while in the only matchup where they would be viable (as in TvZ and TvT they suck even more) their counter gets buffed. Voidray buff vs massive should easily compensate for a slight BC buff vs ground again.


I don't think MMM works as well as people think it does. After a certain point, Terran players need to transition out of it and into a more effective unit composition (I'm not a Terran player so I won't speculate much on what that composition is). The proof is in the results of competitive games. Terran players definitely need to transition into different compositions and adapt to what Protoss players are doing. Blue flame hellions seem to be necessary for Terran to stop zealots / storms late game. It is a cheap, high dps, good splash damage, and easily massable unit that is sparsely seen in PvT games.

The problem with bio is that it is all direct damage & no splash or AoE. What this results in is that other armies have tons of splash mid --> late game (zerg has banelings / ultralisks / infestors; toss has colossi & templars) so that it dumps a ton of damage early in the battle. This has the effect of minimizing MMMs ability to deal out its constant high dps.

Terran need to mix in their own damage dumping units & abilities as well: ghosts, hellions, raven HSM (but that ability kind of sucks after the radius nerf). Terran kind of got the shitty end of the stick when it comes to splash damage. Tanks: yeah they're good, but they are expensive, and its hard NOT to lose them in a confrontation (it has the immortal syndrome where it has a difficult time retreating if a battle goes south & they are priority targets).


MMM is definitely a crutch that terran players have relied on so long, and now it's a hinderance. Protoss was doing shit until players finally stopped doing stalker/colossus every game. Terran players are stuck in MMM and until they can transition from it into something else, their play will be predictable, and therefore counterable.

Problem is... once you've built all those raxes, what do you do with them afterwards?



Mass reaper harass lol.
psycow
Profile Joined October 2010
55 Posts
December 18 2010 16:13 GMT
#4466
You mean factories are meant for more than scouting? Tell Blizzard that.
Dionyseus
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States2068 Posts
December 18 2010 16:14 GMT
#4467
MC made his win look so easy. Even in the only game he lost to Rain he barely lost and it was only because Rain tricked him into thinking he was going heavy bio.
9/5/10 P acct: NA D 10,683 651pts 69w56L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/290365/LetoAtreides T acct: NA D 16,137 553pts 70w67L http://sc2ranks.com/char/us/1560008/Khrone Z: NA G 16,058 465pts 28w26L http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1997354/Omnius
Tomken
Profile Joined January 2010
Norway1144 Posts
December 18 2010 16:21 GMT
#4468
On December 19 2010 00:48 Zocat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2010 00:25 nihoh wrote:
On December 18 2010 23:39 tyr wrote:
So i heard Flounder won a GSL.
I just can't take this guy seriously since the Hyungjoon show. :D

Was he the one who Hyungjoon always picked on?


I'd say that would be Sea

MC "major" showing was during the birthday party of Shark with his Kara - Mister dancing skills ("He's our ace dancer in MBC")


And not forget his gosu rapping skills
MBCGame HERO FIGHTING!!!~
Talack
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada2742 Posts
December 18 2010 16:25 GMT
#4469
So It was another boring final I take it?
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
December 18 2010 16:25 GMT
#4470
Just saw the games. Extremely good. Extremely good.
Bit sad I didn't see any Thors, especially in set 2. Or a good Thor Rush.

I loved GSL 3. 14€ for a season is NO MONEY at all. It would have been 9€ if I would have bought Season 2.

If there was a possibility to buy the ticket for the next year for 120€ I would do it instantly. Thanks for the games in GSL 3. Awesome.
I had a good night of sleep.
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
December 18 2010 16:26 GMT
#4471
On December 19 2010 00:44 lowercase wrote:
I watched the games and all I heard was this gross thumping sound like a fist smacking meat.


You were masturbating during the GSL? Weird.
GimbleB
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Scotland178 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-18 17:12:05
December 18 2010 16:27 GMT
#4472
Videos from the finals are going up now. First one here.



Second one here.



Third one soon.
"What's the point of it all, when you're building a wall and in front of your eyes it disappears." -pigwiththefaceofaboy
lowercase
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1047 Posts
December 18 2010 16:29 GMT
#4473
On December 19 2010 01:26 The KY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2010 00:44 lowercase wrote:
I watched the games and all I heard was this gross thumping sound like a fist smacking meat.


You were masturbating during the GSL? Weird.

To MC's dominating play.
That is not dead which can eternal lie...
SaLaYa
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States363 Posts
December 18 2010 16:36 GMT
#4474
Most inspiring Protoss play I have ever seen. I am in awe. Totally switching from Zerg to Protoss after seeing that amazing play.

MC FIGHTING.
Cornell 2014 // eYe_am_SaSsY
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
December 18 2010 16:43 GMT
#4475
It's not the race that wins, it's the player.
If MC was playing Terran and Rain Protoss, Terran would have won. So nerf terran QQ.
The game is almost perfectly balanced. It is unbelievable how balanced this game already is, they did an amazing job. But I think 10 sec build time decrease for phoenixes may be overkill.
Coriolis
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1152 Posts
December 18 2010 16:55 GMT
#4476
I think a 2 rax fe (unless someone manages to work their magic and do it on 1 rax) into marine tank ghost will be the future. Unfortunately when using this build warp prisms with dts are really annoying due to the immobility. It also doesn't seem to work well in certain positions on 4 player maps. However I think someone will eventually figure out how to overcome these short comings of the build.
Descolada in everything not TL/Starcraft
Victim
Profile Joined August 2010
United States188 Posts
December 18 2010 17:05 GMT
#4477
On December 19 2010 01:00 mothergoose729 wrote:
Terran won the dreamhack tournament in sweden. Naama took it in a 3-2 series against protoss, and pretty much all of their games went late game. One thing you didn't see much from in Rains play or Jinros play is heavy tanks strategies. Naaama had tank lines going down half the map, it made it so that even when the opponent cut into the back there were always tanks out of reach firing and getting sick splash damage.


Seriously?

It seemed like Rain built more tanks on his tank/bunker pushes than Naama did. The big difference is that MC was able to kill tanks and bunkers.
arterian
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1157 Posts
December 18 2010 17:12 GMT
#4478
On December 19 2010 01:43 decaf wrote:
It's not the race that wins, it's the player.
If MC was playing Terran and Rain Protoss, Terran would have won. So nerf terran QQ.
The game is almost perfectly balanced. It is unbelievable how balanced this game already is, they did an amazing job. But I think 10 sec build time decrease for phoenixes may be overkill.


The 10 second build time decrease is because currently if you were to watch a Zerg player throw down a Spire and responded immediately by dropping a Stargate, you can only get out 1 Phoenix by the time it finishes at which point he'll start building X amount of Mutas, usually more than 6.
http://www.twitch.tv/arterian
photomuse
Profile Joined August 2010
United States102 Posts
December 18 2010 17:14 GMT
#4479
I'l also go on record in saying I really, really enjoyed this series. Both players were very skilled, and I think rains builds were very well executed, he just came up short. Enjoyed all 5 games, they had a nice variety to them. And no MMM! That was truly the best part of this series. Thank you, rain. I'm sure his builds worked wonderfully against lesser players.

And the stalker+voidray harass was very well executed.
MisterPuppy
Profile Joined August 2010
161 Posts
December 18 2010 17:22 GMT
#4480
On December 19 2010 01:25 Talack wrote:
So It was another boring final I take it?



terran goes tank+marine with no upgrades over and over and loses, then people blame it on PvT being imba. Basically, MC is a much much better player than Rain.
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