|
On December 06 2010 22:12 andrewwiggin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 22:11 Darhaja wrote:On December 06 2010 22:10 andrewwiggin wrote:On December 06 2010 22:07 kojinshugi wrote:On December 06 2010 22:05 Darhaja wrote:
Well i think this just showed why zerg doesn't 1 base.. FD won on Steppes onebasing/2hatching. I think this just showed why zerg.. needs to scout? Even if he sacrificed an overlord, would it not have been worth it, to know that DTS were incoming? Rofl he knew dt's were coming hence the zergling wall at his ramp. to bad 30 lings cant delay time for one spore to get up ahahah .... Are you serious? He knew dts were coming...when dts were finally out. That's not scouting. That's flying blind. FD deserved to lose. Simple and plain as that.
K he will scout that dark shrine with a slow over lord and a zergling that cant get in his main, your right he should always just sac an ovie at the 6-7 min mark to always make sure there is never a dt shrine, other races don't have to do that just zerg cool beans.
|
On December 06 2010 22:12 Huragius wrote:
I think Nestea and FD are way to overrated now. First of all they are zergs (no wonder why so much hype) and at that level where they play, zerg is the most favoured race. They lost because they didn't adapt to the game. Don't blame all ins, blame them because of not knowing how to deal with them. It seems that you want every race just to do FE against FE zerg and play macro game, sorry, won't happen.
I'm a Terran player, but I think oGsMC is the new power in GSL3. I don't think that Foxer will win, because it seems that Protoss are doing against Terran way too good.
Nestea, Fruitdealer, IdrA, Ret and pretty much every other top zerg having big trouble with those all ins, so maybe those all ins ARE that strong?
|
On December 06 2010 22:14 Darhaja wrote:
Zerg have the worst end of the stick at everything, getting detection is harder to get than every other race
Um. To get mobile detection, zerg makes a Lair and morphs an ovie into an overseer.
How is that harder than getting a raven or an observer? Every single Zerg tech path involves getting a lair, unlike several T or P builds that don't include robos or tech labbed starports.
On December 06 2010 22:17 Darhaja wrote:
K he will scout that dark shrine with a slow over lord and a zergling that cant get in his main, your right he should always just sac an ovie at the 6-7 min mark to always make sure there is never a dt shrine, other races don't have to do that just zerg cool beans.
Yes, because scans in TvP and observers in PvP are free, right? You check for a DT shrine if it's a strong possibility. It's usually not a strong possibility if there's an FE or an obvious robo build.
If you can't see what the other guy is doing 7 minutes into the game, and he's going for something you don't currently have counters for, you're dead. As any race, in any MU.
|
On December 06 2010 22:15 Huragius wrote:
I think Nestea and FD are way to overrated now. First of all they are zergs (no wonder why so much hype) and at that level where they play, zerg is the most favoured race. They lost because they didn't adapt to the game. Don't blame all ins, blame them because of not knowing how to deal with them. It seems that you want every race just to do FE against FE zerg and play macro game, sorry, won't happen.
I'm a Terran player, but I think oGsMC is the new power in GSL3. I don't think that Foxer will win, because seeing MC and HongUn games, I don't think that at that level better Terran (the gap isn't tremendous) could win against Protoss in an absolutely balanced map (ofc, there isn't such a map, for now).
Where did u get zerg is the most favored face?.. I mean terran is the most stable race out of all of the tourneys ever.
|
On December 06 2010 21:40 BurningSera wrote:
without nestea/FD, jinro prob can outmacro everyone remain in gls3 now. maybe gsl3 can goes to Jinro :DDDDD
otherwise i think Foxer will have this gsl3=_=
Hon and MC both have an incredible PvT...it will be hard. Rain will be destroyed (unless he find cheesy allin against a solid Hongun)
I don't know what to think about Choya, but Jinro can do it.
Foxer vs MC will be great : both are very good, and MC got a impressive PvT, it will be a hard serie.
|
On December 06 2010 22:19 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 22:14 Darhaja wrote:
Zerg have the worst end of the stick at everything, getting detection is harder to get than every other race Um. To get mobile detection, zerg makes a Lair and morphs an ovie into an overseer. How is that harder than getting a raven or an observer? Every single Zerg tech path involves getting a lair, unlike several T or P builds that don't include robos or tech labbed starports.
First off, u can wall off and repair or keep the wall in in-tact until you get your detection. Zerg doesnt have the luxery of being safe behind a wall in and has late detection unless they blindly do it or just make the fastest lair possible (which is after speed) and you have to make the overseer right as it pops which is kinda late compared to every other race. You also forgot scan btw
|
On December 06 2010 22:19 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 22:12 Huragius wrote:
I think Nestea and FD are way to overrated now. First of all they are zergs (no wonder why so much hype) and at that level where they play, zerg is the most favoured race. They lost because they didn't adapt to the game. Don't blame all ins, blame them because of not knowing how to deal with them. It seems that you want every race just to do FE against FE zerg and play macro game, sorry, won't happen.
I'm a Terran player, but I think oGsMC is the new power in GSL3. I don't think that Foxer will win, because it seems that Protoss are doing against Terran way too good. Nestea, Fruitdealer, IdrA, Ret and pretty much every other top zerg having big trouble with those all ins, so maybe those all ins ARE that strong?
And they shouldn't be strong vs 14 hatch ?
|
FD just played quite bad imo the whole series.
+ Show Spoiler +
First game was quite decent though fairly poor from hongun
Second game the baneling bust was just an AWFUL choice. Baneling busts suck vs protoss because basically you are forced to sacrifice lots of banelings just to get in (which is even more dramatical if toss has forcefields) and then you only get in lings which don't do too well agianst zealot/stalker. It's basically impossible to make a good mix of banenlings/lings to work, because you are either short on banes and die to cannon+wallof or have too few lings and simply die to the zealots behind the wall. Banelings are also a terrible tech choice if you want to just do damage and continue droning afterwards because banelings suck vs almost all toss armies, if you roach you can easily fall back and go into macro mode.
Third game was alright but hongun once again defended rather poorly here. Not seeing an expansion can only mean 3 things: baneling bust, nydus tech or roach bust. Either way he should want a cannon near the rocks immediately and put scouting pylons around his base.
Fourth game was terrible from FD. First of all quick gas is an iffy opening on the map, the map just completely favors to go 14 hatch but if you do go 14 gas/pool DONT get yourself walled in then. THe attempted bust was still decent but was already futile. Hongun first screwed up the cannon placement (letting the forge be shot without cannons firing because he had his upmost cannon 1 or 2 tiles too low), but then recovered with great walling off later. A good cannon placement from the start and slightly faster voids (which were slow) would have made it look at lot more onesided though.
Fifth game was once again tactically crap from FD. With the early gas opening you really want to get a few more lings and start bashing away at the backdoor rocks IMMEDIATELY. If you don't plan on that zerg should just play roaches instead. The map favors roach play immensely because the natural is small enough to defend with a spinecrawler untill you get roaches up AND the backdoor allows for fantastic midgame roach aggression. Personally I think the map is just made for a reasonly fast expo with 1 spine followed by roach play, you simply can't go wrong with that on the map.
|
On December 06 2010 22:17 Darhaja wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 22:12 andrewwiggin wrote:On December 06 2010 22:11 Darhaja wrote:On December 06 2010 22:10 andrewwiggin wrote:On December 06 2010 22:07 kojinshugi wrote:On December 06 2010 22:05 Darhaja wrote:
Well i think this just showed why zerg doesn't 1 base.. FD won on Steppes onebasing/2hatching. I think this just showed why zerg.. needs to scout? Even if he sacrificed an overlord, would it not have been worth it, to know that DTS were incoming? Rofl he knew dt's were coming hence the zergling wall at his ramp. to bad 30 lings cant delay time for one spore to get up ahahah .... Are you serious? He knew dts were coming...when dts were finally out. That's not scouting. That's flying blind. FD deserved to lose. Simple and plain as that. K he will scout that dark shrine with a slow over lord and a zergling that cant get in his main, your right he should always just sac an ovie at the 6-7 min mark to always make sure there is never a dt shrine, other races don't have to do that just zerg cool beans.
WOW.
You act like zerg is the only race that has trouble scouting early. Seriously, QFT.
Fruitdealer was FLYING BLIND that whole game. Isn't 1 sacrificed overlord worth a game? He wouldn't have lost otherwise, would he have now.. BOOM.
|
Holy cow. The two GSL champs OUT of this. Pretty neat that there will not be a repeat.
|
Basically u just said that zerg can't all in because they are bad, and every zerg should pool 14 then hatch but.. doesn't that limit the zerg for things at his disposal, i just hate how weak zerg all-ins are compared to everyone else its kind of pathetic. You can hold off roach ling all day if u know its coming and u really cant deny scouting that easily with zerg because if u dont see a hatch at their nat u just D up and lol at the failed all in.
|
I can't really see why a known strategy such as DT rush is a cheese? It's pretty risky considering the amount of time it takes to build both a council and a shrine just to be countered by a mere overseer. Watch how Nestea won against MC in seasona 2 and you'll see how useless DT's are if detected and Zerg just overuns Toss in such games because of the time invested in getting those DTs and lack of fighting units. Fruitdealer had an early gas yet stayed on hatchery probably forgetting DTs were a possibility and focusing on 4 warpgate or blink stalkers. It's the state of the metagame .. it happens.
And to compare this with the Terran all ins?? My goodness how many DT rushes have we actually seen in this GSL compared to the Terran one base timing attacks? Note I don't harp on the race I just harp on the players. I really loved Jinro's play against Moon on XelNaga ... probably the fastest Terran to get a 3rd base up in GSL. Good luck to him against Choya!
|
On December 06 2010 22:19 Darhaja wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 22:15 Huragius wrote:
I think Nestea and FD are way to overrated now. First of all they are zergs (no wonder why so much hype) and at that level where they play, zerg is the most favoured race. They lost because they didn't adapt to the game. Don't blame all ins, blame them because of not knowing how to deal with them. It seems that you want every race just to do FE against FE zerg and play macro game, sorry, won't happen.
I'm a Terran player, but I think oGsMC is the new power in GSL3. I don't think that Foxer will win, because seeing MC and HongUn games, I don't think that at that level better Terran (the gap isn't tremendous) could win against Protoss in an absolutely balanced map (ofc, there isn't such a map, for now). Where did u get zerg is the most favored face?.. I mean terran is the most stable race out of all of the tourneys ever.
So why most of the pros before GSL3 said in their interwievs that they don't want to meet any zergs in their matches?And I won't go deep into this disccusion because zerg is still UP in most players eyes, even if you state the facts.
And I'm not talking about Europe/NA/SA, I'm talking about Korea level of play.
|
There are also other great ways for zerg to scout or be ready to what toss does. A reasonably fast lair or evo chamber is one thing for example, breaking down the backrocks and playing aggresive (thereby forcing toss to defend and not tech as hard) is another. There are litterally tons of ways for Z to not lose to this kind of aggresion, the map just really favors zerg hard at the moment.
P is forced to do some kind of cheesy build on the map as P basically can't expo at all on it. (forge FE fails and so does 3 gate sentry expanding). So as long as Z plays careful it's basically a free win, Hongun did the neccesary gamble and was lucky FD played so crap to fall for it.
|
Sigh, as a fellow zergy I am sad to see FD lose. I think he and other zerg players will eventually figure out how to implement detection into their builds just to be safe. HongUn had a nice plan there for this best of 5.
One thing is for sure, I'm happy to see a non-zerg player be the GSL champion this time around.
|
On December 06 2010 22:21 Darhaja wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 22:19 kojinshugi wrote:On December 06 2010 22:14 Darhaja wrote:
Zerg have the worst end of the stick at everything, getting detection is harder to get than every other race Um. To get mobile detection, zerg makes a Lair and morphs an ovie into an overseer. How is that harder than getting a raven or an observer? Every single Zerg tech path involves getting a lair, unlike several T or P builds that don't include robos or tech labbed starports. First off, u can wall off and repair or keep the wall in in-tact until you get your detection. Zerg doesnt have the luxery of being safe behind a wall in and has late detection unless they blindly do it or just make the fastest laie possible. You also forgot scan btw
I didn't forget scan, I was talking about mobile detection units. You have to consciously save up for scans and even the threat of cloaked units is a far bigger economic hit than saccing one ovie.
And what does walling off have to do with anything? T doesn't wall against toss, walls don't help against banshees, walls barely help against burrow roaches who can pretty much two shot a depot and reburrow. Unless you like keeping half a dozen scvs idling by your wall in case Z goes burrow, repairing it isn't really an option.
I've still to see anyone explain the reasoning behind the common wisdom of "Zerg can't scout".
|
On December 06 2010 22:25 ZeNd0kUn wrote:
...
And to compare this with the Terran all ins?? My goodness how many DT rushes have we actually seen in this GSL compared to the Terran one base timing attacks? Note I don't harp on the race I just harp on the players. I really loved Jinro's play against Moon on XelNaga ... probably the fastest Terran to get a 3rd base up in GSL. Good luck to him against Choya!
I'm not going to comment on cheese or not, but DT play was 'the thing' for GSL2, it was just replaced by phoenix/VR combos in this season.
Side note: Vote in the recommended games in the OP people, that way we can save others from watching these two series.
|
Please stop the balance talks. I am a Zerg user as well, but what's the problem? Zerg already won 2 GSLs, so it's ok if they don't win this one, isn't it? All-in play will be abandoned if players learn how to stop it. Come on, I still hope that terrans will find better ways to win against zerg.
|
On December 06 2010 22:26 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 22:19 Darhaja wrote:On December 06 2010 22:15 Huragius wrote:
I think Nestea and FD are way to overrated now. First of all they are zergs (no wonder why so much hype) and at that level where they play, zerg is the most favoured race. They lost because they didn't adapt to the game. Don't blame all ins, blame them because of not knowing how to deal with them. It seems that you want every race just to do FE against FE zerg and play macro game, sorry, won't happen.
I'm a Terran player, but I think oGsMC is the new power in GSL3. I don't think that Foxer will win, because seeing MC and HongUn games, I don't think that at that level better Terran (the gap isn't tremendous) could win against Protoss in an absolutely balanced map (ofc, there isn't such a map, for now). Where did u get zerg is the most favored face?.. I mean terran is the most stable race out of all of the tourneys ever. So why most of the pros before GSL3 said in their interwievs that they don't want to meet any zergs in their matches?And I won't go deep into this disccusion because zerg is still UP in most players eyes, even if you state the facts. And I'm not talking about Europe/NA/SA, I'm talking about Korea level of play.
All i gotta say is that there was 3 terrans in the top 4 for 2 seasons in a row, i dunno how that makes zerg favored >.>
|
On December 06 2010 22:19 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 22:12 Huragius wrote:
I think Nestea and FD are way to overrated now. First of all they are zergs (no wonder why so much hype) and at that level where they play, zerg is the most favoured race. They lost because they didn't adapt to the game. Don't blame all ins, blame them because of not knowing how to deal with them. It seems that you want every race just to do FE against FE zerg and play macro game, sorry, won't happen.
I'm a Terran player, but I think oGsMC is the new power in GSL3. I don't think that Foxer will win, because it seems that Protoss are doing against Terran way too good. Nestea, Fruitdealer, IdrA, Ret and pretty much every other top zerg having big trouble with those all ins, so maybe those all ins ARE that strong?
dont do 14 hatch
problem solved
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
