On November 09 2010 13:58 SecretUnexplorerUse wrote:On November 08 2010 12:26 nedamise wrote:On November 08 2010 12:22 FLuE wrote:
He is a great overall player, ZvZ is a complete crapshoot right now. You asked a question, everyone responded with reasonable answers ranging from "Umm he is just really good.." to "here are his accomplishments.. they are really good." What more do you want?
No need to be defensive, I don't want anything. We are just talking things out, I have a question/dilemma and I'm seeking the opinion of others, which others are providing. Nothing wrong with that?
idra is the most well known foreigner. that means everyone else brings their absolute best to beat him. he gets cheesed so much because he will dominate a macro game and all the other players are well aware of this. why do you think he gets cheesed so much?
he won mlg dc, he got second at the first iem. he has advanced past the ro 64 in gsl twice, i dont think any other foreigner could accomplish that at this point. what else do you want? fruitdealer got knocked out in the ro32 in gsl2, you cant win all the time no matter how good you are.
Eh, cheese is a part of the game and not something that spawned in a different dimension. If he can't defend against it properly (not counting IEM, the reapers were really absurdly imbalanced) he isn't so good as people claim him to be because he has a very weak aspect of his game that needs improving. But people aren't saying "maybe IdrA should fix this", people are insulting other players for going for the optimal strategy against him. That's kinda silly.
Glad you brought up FD actually. In the semi finals of the first GSL in one game he got cheesed with everything in the Terran arsenal (and this was prepatch). He was bunkered rushed, followed by reapers, followed by cloaked banshees and he lost an absurd amount of drones and economy. But he still won because he was simply the better player.
And he was constantly getting cheesed throughout the tournament as well. But when he lost to Foxer the people screaming "OMG IMBA CHEESE" were in a minority and most people recognized the real problem and commented on it:
He couldn't stop droning and his weakness got exploited. Did that lessen him as a player? Of course not. But realistically, it was a fuck up on his side.
Just wanted to respond as theese sort of sidestepings in threads are almost always what ends up preventing me from wanting to keep on reading.
Yes you're only asking a question, it's nothing wrong with that.
The reason for why the responses to such a question, though. Eventualy will present em'selves in a way so that you feel they are almost unfair.
Is for the same reason that most people can't stand reading stream-chats
or youtube coments.
I.e; watching an interview or a game with Idra, and chats fills up with; "Omg's wonder if he is gona rage", "O lol he seams to be a much nice person now, i thought he was going to curse alot more or something omg lol", "lols i knew he loose, Gracken can only win macro if no cheese ofc kekenobdog"...
It's not the matter of that you dont have anything to back up your reasoning for asking why he get hyped up in forums. And im not saying you sound like an average 14year old newcomer to the sceene necessarily.
But the reason why most people wouldn't bother to treat it as anything else.
Are that there isn't much room for those sort of questions to be apriciated enough to be taken seriusly any further than what you've gotten thus far.
Zvz is a special section in starcraft. No special need to list details if it concerns BW, wings of liberty, maps, mechanics, special player-qualitys, practise enviroment or w/e. As you can just sum it up with that SC's game-design and race-mechanics are complex and take no easy road or shortcuts to how the endless counts of possibilitys with them can play out, while still maintaining very destinct and stylish means for each part to do so.
It often ensure different balence aspects by providing races and units with very uniq and exclusive qualitys, rather than just giving em different names and modells
While that is something that seperates it self from a lot of other sports, and we love it for it. It alsow leads to circumstances that can be argued as les desireable.
As "fun-stuff" as it is to watch at times, we don't want our entertainment to come down to every single match beeing a fragile knife fight on a trampolin. Which is somewhat what the zerg race have a history of beeing similuar to when it is facing it's own qualitys and strengths.
Hence the reason for why someone would bring that up as a point to why
a match of ZvZ beeing a special situation and a quite different challenge
within the game it self.
Now. Does that mean you don't need to be good at that part of the game since there are so much else to be good at, and most people could agree that practising that perticular part on it's own is a burden anyway?.
No. Same goes with cheese. Ofcourse.
But what i am saying is that there is a reason why people ocationaly singles them out, or what you would call it. There's a reason why for instance Pain.User in an interview say that he is happy and proud to find out he can go out toe to toe in a MACRO game with the players he respected while watchim 'em play, as he was growing up.
Idra aswell as many other aknowledge he has flaws and know what alot of them are. And it isn't purly simple obsticles like that he is weak against cheese or that he can only macro. He would like to improve at aspects of the game such as
adeptation. Assume less, and so on.
He loves this game. And if you would ask me personaly,
i think the biggest challenge for him is that he will never enjoy giving in to the hands of a player doing something that he would consider robing the beuty out of Sarcraft and "dumbing" down the game.
Is that the kind of topics you would see people talking about in chats?
They would more likely talk about marauders, cheese, macro, fruitdealer, what casters are their faovorites, or flying nydus-worms that could heal, heck what do i know. I find myself most the time unable to think about much else than asking myself why im reading the chats in the first place.
Do you want to discuss why, how, or when Idra is/isn't good? Or do you want to to discuss why other people seam to drawn the conclusion that he is when he realy isn't?
Whether it is any of those 2, why people like him, people beliving in his abilitys or ever the subject. I think you're not only discussing it in the wrong place but alsow looking at the wrong places for venting and taking notes on opinions at the subject, since you seam to feel realy strongly about keeping the subject alive towards a meaningfull discussion.
And hence why my stupidly long answer to this. when i could just as well said; "Idra is good, sup?"
I dont want to have 1/3 of any content Idra beeing part of, having posts about him beeing questiond as a person or a gamer.
Idra is a super talent. He wins alot now, back then, will continue to do so.
He will, has, and do loses alot. Mayby loses more than some would had thought. Alot of it beeing cheese since taking out as many aspects as possible of what leads to a victory in a game like starcraft, favores the less experiencd. People will mindlessly say nothing more than things like
"pff cheese" alot of the times no matter the game or the players. But just
aswell they will alsow say the oposites.
To strip down your concerns/dilema/question;
People belive in him and continue to do so even if he loses?
-Yes.
But why?
-Cause he is realy good.
No he isn't he loses since he has a deep flaw in the game. and people exploits it and he should deal with it else no skills!!
-OK!!
People shoudn't hype him since he don't win as much as i think he should do if i read alot of hype n stuff.
-I don't see alot of hype, actually far less than i expect. I would like to see more hype if anything. Specialy players like Nony and Ret comes to mind. Not big banners on their portraits everywhere. But anything cheerful and positive thoughts paying respect to how such amazing talents theese people are. Is a good thing.
People never talk about actual reasons to why he loses?
-No they do. You won't find 'em at the same places where you are seeing "omg cheese's" tho. Atleast not most of the time.
I suggest relooking the options for where to read/discuss or listen to more
food for thought on the subjects, if that is what you realy are looking for?!
Mkay but people need to get real, cause they think that; Only cause you were good in broodwar, and is able to take down most players. Makes you a good gamer. Do you think that? Even if he loses games im watching?!
-If you are like you previusly mentiond NOT new to the sceene. Then im confused since you shouldn't be surprised at all to anyone beeing defensive in the sc comunity when you say the kind of things you say.
And if in reality you're just kinda new. Then in a lack of better words i sugest you just try reconise your position here. Your just as welcome as the next guy not beeing a complete waste. But humble up a bit on what you feel are feelings worthy to take up alot of space. Cause you are, taking up alot of space, along with all others questioning stuff like thatss whats what.
EPT
