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On September 05 2010 08:53 Pekkz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 08:35 drewbie.root wrote:
lol, when i qualified for the IEM group stage, i beat artosis in the tournament, and he flaaaaaamed me then too, and also did the exact same build ( muta ling baneling ). I even beat him in the beta when zerg was the best race T_T. Also he was harassing me non-stop to play 1 hour before the match was supposed to start ( I would have played early but admins wouldn't let us ). So of course I did get a little bit tired of his shit.
My comment was not BM, I was giving him some constructive criticism, every other zerg in the world makes a hive when they have 3+ bases, unlike artosis who just continued to mass mutas and suicides them vs +3 rines and +2 thors in both games. Nothing would have been different if he had teched. You where really marauder heavy so ultras wouldnt have made a difference. As for other options, only a few good fungal growths would been a good option, but nothing that zerg has can save those hatch snipes you where doing. And thats what made you win, not your bad army controll.
Are you a professional gamer? have you played in and won any tournaments? Im guessing the answer to both of those questions is no, so before you say that Drewbie is wrong in what he is saying you need to show why your so qualified to make that remark. If you watched those games you would see that Drewbie is right about everything he said, the game would have been much different if Artosis didnt try to beat Drewbie with Mutas when Drewbie had the EXACT counter to Mutas. The reason why Drewbie was able to go on a rampage sniping all of Artosis' hatcheries is because he was diverting Artosis' attention with drops and little attack forces, and when Artosis moved his whole army then Drewbie attacked while he was out of position.
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On September 05 2010 09:01 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 08:49 Shikyo wrote:On September 05 2010 08:47 NonFactor wrote:On September 05 2010 08:41 GenoZStriker wrote:On September 05 2010 08:39 Lucius2 wrote:
when exactly was zerg the best race in the beta!? Errr you don't remember when mass roach > all? Um no. Mass roach was indeed strong in >LATE GAME< the problem here is that Zerg doesen't make it to >LATE GAME< most of their games, due to their extremely weak early game and early-mid game. (Numerous factors play to this.) Zerg was never ''strong'', T and P just learned how to abuse their strenghts better against Zerg, that's all. Dimaga may have made Zerg look strong, but he always seemed one step ahead of everyone else and is an extremely skilled player. (Like IEM EU showed.) Anyways, yeah, lack of Zergs is getting sad. =[] But what can you do? Anyways, tuned in most of the games, been enjoying most of the games, Machine played exceptionally well. Yep, changing the Roach supply to 1 was a very critical mistake. Back then, Zerg was the best race in the endgame while sucking at all points before(how it should be). Now Zerg is merely able to compete in the lategame after being completely useless for the first 10-15 minutes. It really was a bad change. i think its ridiculous how when zerg was the strongest race and terrans/protoss refused to do anything creative(apart from a few good seeds like Jinro with his reaper into ghost opening which as effective as it was for some reason everyone else refused to implement) and all that happened was a million patches that nerfed zerg over the course of a few months. Now zerg is told to "use nydus" for half a year and no end to this insanity is in sight.
I agree its funny how terran/protoss were complaining and all that and like you said zerg to nerfed hardcore and now its opposite and terran/protoss's are telling zergs to be more creative when they couldn't do it themselves? Hypocrisy at its best 
Although I feel Artosis did play pretty bad against drewbie he never really transitioned or anything and losing all those mutas in that last game was bad let alone letting drewbie kill 4 bases before stomping the army. It wasn't balance that lost Artosis the game it was his playing.
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On September 05 2010 09:02 FlashIsHigh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 08:53 Pekkz wrote:On September 05 2010 08:35 drewbie.root wrote:
lol, when i qualified for the IEM group stage, i beat artosis in the tournament, and he flaaaaaamed me then too, and also did the exact same build ( muta ling baneling ). I even beat him in the beta when zerg was the best race T_T. Also he was harassing me non-stop to play 1 hour before the match was supposed to start ( I would have played early but admins wouldn't let us ). So of course I did get a little bit tired of his shit.
My comment was not BM, I was giving him some constructive criticism, every other zerg in the world makes a hive when they have 3+ bases, unlike artosis who just continued to mass mutas and suicides them vs +3 rines and +2 thors in both games. Nothing would have been different if he had teched. You where really marauder heavy so ultras wouldnt have made a difference. As for other options, only a few good fungal growths would been a good option, but nothing that zerg has can save those hatch snipes you where doing. And thats what made you win, not your bad army controll. Are you a professional gamer? have you played in and won any tournaments? Im guessing the answer to both of those questions is no, so before you say that Drewbie is wrong in what he is saying you need to show why your so qualified to make that remark. If you watched those games you would see that Drewbie is right about everything he said, the game would have been much different if Artosis didnt try to beat Drewbie with Mutas when Drewbie had the EXACT counter to Mutas. The reason why Drewbie was able to go on a rampage sniping all of Artosis' hatcheries is because he was diverting Artosis' attention with drops and little attack forces, and when Artosis moved his whole army then Drewbie attacked while he was out of position.
So he was supposed to pull an entirely different army out of his ass when he had 4 bases sniped? What exactly IS supposed to counter a Marauder, Tank, Thor army if not magic-box Mutas?
Do you even PLAY this game? Ling/Bling/Muta is the most powerful ZvT strat available right now. Lings counter the Thors, Blings melt the Marines and deal damage to the other units, and Mutalisks clean up the Tanks and Thors if controlled properly. Artosis played awful, but Drewbie is wrong in thinking there is a more viable Zerg strat.
Of course, he wouldn't really know since he just hides behind 100 turrets when his 1A army is flanked. Enjoy the nerf, bro.
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On September 05 2010 08:52 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 08:49 Shikyo wrote:On September 05 2010 08:47 NonFactor wrote:On September 05 2010 08:41 GenoZStriker wrote:On September 05 2010 08:39 Lucius2 wrote:
when exactly was zerg the best race in the beta!? Errr you don't remember when mass roach > all? Um no. Mass roach was indeed strong in >LATE GAME< the problem here is that Zerg doesen't make it to >LATE GAME< most of their games, due to their extremely weak early game and early-mid game. (Numerous factors play to this.) Zerg was never ''strong'', T and P just learned how to abuse their strenghts better against Zerg, that's all. Dimaga may have made Zerg look strong, but he always seemed one step ahead of everyone else and is an extremely skilled player. (Like IEM EU showed.) Anyways, yeah, lack of Zergs is getting sad. =[] But what can you do? Anyways, tuned in most of the games, been enjoying most of the games, Machine played exceptionally well. Yep, changing the Roach supply to 1 was a very critical mistake. Back then, Zerg was the best race in the endgame while sucking at all points before(how it should be). Now Zerg is merely able to compete in the lategame after being completely useless for the first 10-15 minutes. It really was a bad change. Back then all Zerg players did all game long was mass roaches. It was a very one-dimensional match-up, so they changed it. I still remember the massive bitching that ensued when it happened. Trust me, there was a period in which the Zerg and Terran positions were reversed balance-wise, and it was Zerg players who had to deal with the accusation that they were playing the ezmode race that can win without doing anything other than a-move.
I don't need to trust you, I've played the beta and been following from the start. That wasn't all Zergs did, it was Roach-Hydra most of the time and there were other units as well. Increasing Roach supply still wasn't the correct move, ZvX didn't become any more interesting.
The correct decision was to remove Roach's health and make the regen so that 2 marines would still kill a Roach in the same time, but having multiple units would make Roaches much less durable. This'd have had them hold the same early game usability while making them much weaker in the lategame.
They also needed to reduce Hydra's supply to 1 and make it weaker with like 60 health and 8 damage attacks, along with a lower cost. What they did was make 1. Zerg lose its feel 2. Force one unit path for both ZvP and ZvT.
Enough about that though, I switched my race from Zerg to Terran a week ago so I don't need to worry about these things anymore.
At least the matches started now so that we can discuss the actual games! I hope Lastshadow will tech to the reactor Starport soon or he'll be in trouble
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On September 05 2010 08:52 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 08:49 Shikyo wrote:On September 05 2010 08:47 NonFactor wrote:On September 05 2010 08:41 GenoZStriker wrote:On September 05 2010 08:39 Lucius2 wrote:
when exactly was zerg the best race in the beta!? Errr you don't remember when mass roach > all? Um no. Mass roach was indeed strong in >LATE GAME< the problem here is that Zerg doesen't make it to >LATE GAME< most of their games, due to their extremely weak early game and early-mid game. (Numerous factors play to this.) Zerg was never ''strong'', T and P just learned how to abuse their strenghts better against Zerg, that's all. Dimaga may have made Zerg look strong, but he always seemed one step ahead of everyone else and is an extremely skilled player. (Like IEM EU showed.) Anyways, yeah, lack of Zergs is getting sad. =[] But what can you do? Anyways, tuned in most of the games, been enjoying most of the games, Machine played exceptionally well. Yep, changing the Roach supply to 1 was a very critical mistake. Back then, Zerg was the best race in the endgame while sucking at all points before(how it should be). Now Zerg is merely able to compete in the lategame after being completely useless for the first 10-15 minutes. It really was a bad change. Back then all Zerg players did all game long was mass roaches. It was a very one-dimensional match-up, so they changed it. I still remember the massive bitching that ensued when it happened. Trust me, there was a period in which the Zerg and Terran positions were reversed balance-wise, and it was Zerg players who had to deal with the accusation that they were playing the ezmode race that can win without doing anything other than a-move.
Incorrect. The time when Z was thought to be OP was in the very first week(s) of the beta. Why? People didn't know how to deal with the 1 base roach push. It got soon figured out.
Terrans were crying hardcore about Zerg during the first week(s) Why? Because they were stuck in the mind set of going Bio every single game and Mutabaneling more or less owned that hardcore. Now days bio is a lot more viable due to proper follow ups and proper micro / response. Then Turrets got heavily boosted, so did Thors, and Mech play more or less got discovered.
Roaches were never an issue except in the late game when Zerg could create out of nowhere a shit ton of Roaches and have massive balls of Roaches. (1 supply.) This wasn't that much of an issue early or mid-game mainly because Zerg didn't have the resources to make enough Roaches that it would become a ball of invincible.
Also another reason why Roaches weren't an issue in early-mid game was because they have easy to get hardcounters, especially for Terran. And when in small numbers, Zerg is always the weaker part.
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On September 05 2010 09:02 FlashIsHigh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 08:53 Pekkz wrote:On September 05 2010 08:35 drewbie.root wrote:
lol, when i qualified for the IEM group stage, i beat artosis in the tournament, and he flaaaaaamed me then too, and also did the exact same build ( muta ling baneling ). I even beat him in the beta when zerg was the best race T_T. Also he was harassing me non-stop to play 1 hour before the match was supposed to start ( I would have played early but admins wouldn't let us ). So of course I did get a little bit tired of his shit.
My comment was not BM, I was giving him some constructive criticism, every other zerg in the world makes a hive when they have 3+ bases, unlike artosis who just continued to mass mutas and suicides them vs +3 rines and +2 thors in both games. Nothing would have been different if he had teched. You where really marauder heavy so ultras wouldnt have made a difference. As for other options, only a few good fungal growths would been a good option, but nothing that zerg has can save those hatch snipes you where doing. And thats what made you win, not your bad army controll. Are you a professional gamer? have you played in and won any tournaments? Im guessing the answer to both of those questions is no, so before you say that Drewbie is wrong in what he is saying you need to show why your so qualified to make that remark. If you watched those games you would see that Drewbie is right about everything he said, the game would have been much different if Artosis didnt try to beat Drewbie with Mutas when Drewbie had the EXACT counter to Mutas. The reason why Drewbie was able to go on a rampage sniping all of Artosis' hatcheries is because he was diverting Artosis' attention with drops and little attack forces, and when Artosis moved his whole army then Drewbie attacked while he was out of position.
Are you? im guessing the answer to that question is no, so before you say that drewbie is right in what hes saying you need to show why your so qualifed to say hes right. See what i did there?
The problem my friend, is that doing multiple drop attacks as terran requires far less apm and good execution then it takes for zerg to defend it. And in the 10 sec it takes for stim marauders to kill a hatch , you need super reaction to be able to save em, and prob wont be able to even if you have that.
Edit: also saying that drewbie had the exact counter to artosis shows that you have N O idea what your talking about. Ling baneling muta is the most popular counter to marauder/rine/thor/tank.
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On September 05 2010 09:08 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 08:52 Azarkon wrote:On September 05 2010 08:49 Shikyo wrote:On September 05 2010 08:47 NonFactor wrote:On September 05 2010 08:41 GenoZStriker wrote:On September 05 2010 08:39 Lucius2 wrote:
when exactly was zerg the best race in the beta!? Errr you don't remember when mass roach > all? Um no. Mass roach was indeed strong in >LATE GAME< the problem here is that Zerg doesen't make it to >LATE GAME< most of their games, due to their extremely weak early game and early-mid game. (Numerous factors play to this.) Zerg was never ''strong'', T and P just learned how to abuse their strenghts better against Zerg, that's all. Dimaga may have made Zerg look strong, but he always seemed one step ahead of everyone else and is an extremely skilled player. (Like IEM EU showed.) Anyways, yeah, lack of Zergs is getting sad. =[] But what can you do? Anyways, tuned in most of the games, been enjoying most of the games, Machine played exceptionally well. Yep, changing the Roach supply to 1 was a very critical mistake. Back then, Zerg was the best race in the endgame while sucking at all points before(how it should be). Now Zerg is merely able to compete in the lategame after being completely useless for the first 10-15 minutes. It really was a bad change. Back then all Zerg players did all game long was mass roaches. It was a very one-dimensional match-up, so they changed it. I still remember the massive bitching that ensued when it happened. Trust me, there was a period in which the Zerg and Terran positions were reversed balance-wise, and it was Zerg players who had to deal with the accusation that they were playing the ezmode race that can win without doing anything other than a-move. I don't need to trust you, I've played the beta and been following from the start. That wasn't all Zergs did, it was Roach-Hydra most of the time and there were other units as well. Increasing Roach supply still wasn't the correct move, ZvX didn't become any more interesting. The correct decision was to remove Roach's health and make the regen so that 2 marines would still kill a Roach in the same time, but having multiple units would make Roaches much less durable. This'd have had them hold the same early game usability while making them much weaker in the lategame. They also needed to reduce Hydra's supply to 1 and make it weaker with like 60 health and 8 damage attacks, along with a lower cost. What they did was make 1. Zerg lose its feel 2. Force one unit path for both ZvP and ZvT. Enough about that though, I switched my race from Zerg to Terran a week ago so I don't need to worry about these things anymore. At least the matches started now so that we can discuss the actual games! I hope Lastshadow will tech to the reactor Starport soon or he'll be in trouble
Roaches in the first few weeks of Beta had 2 armor and had an upgrade that made them regen ridiculously fast even when unburrowed. Both of these features were nerfed before the food nerf came in.
So yes there was a time when all Zergs built were Roaches and the race was clearly unbalanced. That's all I'm stating.
Btw, IdrA himself admitted that Zergs were unbalanced back then.
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Race balance and everything else to do with his game with Drewbie aside. Artosis is a good caster but when hes going to be so childish and disrepectful to other players. Why is he allowed to cast the GSL. Especially when GSL is going on right now thanks to Blizzard and he feels the need to flame Blizzard during the game.
No matter how or why you lose. Just GG and leave. Its simple...
Ive been enjoying most the games tonight anyway.
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On September 05 2010 09:16 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 09:08 Shikyo wrote:On September 05 2010 08:52 Azarkon wrote:On September 05 2010 08:49 Shikyo wrote:On September 05 2010 08:47 NonFactor wrote:On September 05 2010 08:41 GenoZStriker wrote:On September 05 2010 08:39 Lucius2 wrote:
when exactly was zerg the best race in the beta!? Errr you don't remember when mass roach > all? Um no. Mass roach was indeed strong in >LATE GAME< the problem here is that Zerg doesen't make it to >LATE GAME< most of their games, due to their extremely weak early game and early-mid game. (Numerous factors play to this.) Zerg was never ''strong'', T and P just learned how to abuse their strenghts better against Zerg, that's all. Dimaga may have made Zerg look strong, but he always seemed one step ahead of everyone else and is an extremely skilled player. (Like IEM EU showed.) Anyways, yeah, lack of Zergs is getting sad. =[] But what can you do? Anyways, tuned in most of the games, been enjoying most of the games, Machine played exceptionally well. Yep, changing the Roach supply to 1 was a very critical mistake. Back then, Zerg was the best race in the endgame while sucking at all points before(how it should be). Now Zerg is merely able to compete in the lategame after being completely useless for the first 10-15 minutes. It really was a bad change. Back then all Zerg players did all game long was mass roaches. It was a very one-dimensional match-up, so they changed it. I still remember the massive bitching that ensued when it happened. Trust me, there was a period in which the Zerg and Terran positions were reversed balance-wise, and it was Zerg players who had to deal with the accusation that they were playing the ezmode race that can win without doing anything other than a-move. I don't need to trust you, I've played the beta and been following from the start. That wasn't all Zergs did, it was Roach-Hydra most of the time and there were other units as well. Increasing Roach supply still wasn't the correct move, ZvX didn't become any more interesting. The correct decision was to remove Roach's health and make the regen so that 2 marines would still kill a Roach in the same time, but having multiple units would make Roaches much less durable. This'd have had them hold the same early game usability while making them much weaker in the lategame. They also needed to reduce Hydra's supply to 1 and make it weaker with like 60 health and 8 damage attacks, along with a lower cost. What they did was make 1. Zerg lose its feel 2. Force one unit path for both ZvP and ZvT. Enough about that though, I switched my race from Zerg to Terran a week ago so I don't need to worry about these things anymore. At least the matches started now so that we can discuss the actual games! I hope Lastshadow will tech to the reactor Starport soon or he'll be in trouble Roaches in the first few weeks of Beta had 2 armor and had an upgrade that made them regen ridiculously fast even when unburrowed. Both of these features were nerfed before the food nerf came in. So yes there was a time when all Zergs built were Roaches and the race was clearly unbalanced. That's all I'm stating.
What he said was not wrong at all. Roaches were only OP in the late game (3-4+ bases), where Zerg could actually pump 100 roaches due to the 1 supply cost and the larvae stacking. The regen upgrade required Tier 3, so it still didn't fix their early game vulnerabilities. But yes, Zerg was quite strong for a brief period (early P1) before all the nerfs.
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Great, we really needed another TvZ balance thread.
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Great, we really needed another tournament with 2 zergs and 20 terrans.
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please talk about the games and not balance...
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On September 05 2010 09:19 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 09:16 Azarkon wrote:On September 05 2010 09:08 Shikyo wrote:On September 05 2010 08:52 Azarkon wrote:On September 05 2010 08:49 Shikyo wrote:On September 05 2010 08:47 NonFactor wrote:On September 05 2010 08:41 GenoZStriker wrote:On September 05 2010 08:39 Lucius2 wrote:
when exactly was zerg the best race in the beta!? Errr you don't remember when mass roach > all? Um no. Mass roach was indeed strong in >LATE GAME< the problem here is that Zerg doesen't make it to >LATE GAME< most of their games, due to their extremely weak early game and early-mid game. (Numerous factors play to this.) Zerg was never ''strong'', T and P just learned how to abuse their strenghts better against Zerg, that's all. Dimaga may have made Zerg look strong, but he always seemed one step ahead of everyone else and is an extremely skilled player. (Like IEM EU showed.) Anyways, yeah, lack of Zergs is getting sad. =[] But what can you do? Anyways, tuned in most of the games, been enjoying most of the games, Machine played exceptionally well. Yep, changing the Roach supply to 1 was a very critical mistake. Back then, Zerg was the best race in the endgame while sucking at all points before(how it should be). Now Zerg is merely able to compete in the lategame after being completely useless for the first 10-15 minutes. It really was a bad change. Back then all Zerg players did all game long was mass roaches. It was a very one-dimensional match-up, so they changed it. I still remember the massive bitching that ensued when it happened. Trust me, there was a period in which the Zerg and Terran positions were reversed balance-wise, and it was Zerg players who had to deal with the accusation that they were playing the ezmode race that can win without doing anything other than a-move. I don't need to trust you, I've played the beta and been following from the start. That wasn't all Zergs did, it was Roach-Hydra most of the time and there were other units as well. Increasing Roach supply still wasn't the correct move, ZvX didn't become any more interesting. The correct decision was to remove Roach's health and make the regen so that 2 marines would still kill a Roach in the same time, but having multiple units would make Roaches much less durable. This'd have had them hold the same early game usability while making them much weaker in the lategame. They also needed to reduce Hydra's supply to 1 and make it weaker with like 60 health and 8 damage attacks, along with a lower cost. What they did was make 1. Zerg lose its feel 2. Force one unit path for both ZvP and ZvT. Enough about that though, I switched my race from Zerg to Terran a week ago so I don't need to worry about these things anymore. At least the matches started now so that we can discuss the actual games! I hope Lastshadow will tech to the reactor Starport soon or he'll be in trouble Roaches in the first few weeks of Beta had 2 armor and had an upgrade that made them regen ridiculously fast even when unburrowed. Both of these features were nerfed before the food nerf came in. So yes there was a time when all Zergs built were Roaches and the race was clearly unbalanced. That's all I'm stating. What he said was not wrong at all. Roaches were only OP in the late game (3-4+ bases), where Zerg could actually pump 100 roaches due to the 1 supply cost and the larvae stacking. The regen upgrade required Tier 3, so it still didn't fix their early game vulnerabilities. But yes, Zerg was quite strong for a brief period before all the nerfs.
What he said was not wrong at all, it was just not relevant to what I said. Roaches were nerfed because they were considered too one-dimensional and too powerful late-game. No one's debating that they could be held back early game in small numbers if you rushed the counters.
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How about that lastshadow v kiwikaki series?
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Kiwikaki won the first game via colossus.
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On September 05 2010 09:25 QueueQueue wrote:
How about that lastshadow v kiwikaki series?
Shush, we are talking imbalance here.
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On September 05 2010 09:23 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 09:19 teamsolid wrote:On September 05 2010 09:16 Azarkon wrote:On September 05 2010 09:08 Shikyo wrote:On September 05 2010 08:52 Azarkon wrote:On September 05 2010 08:49 Shikyo wrote:On September 05 2010 08:47 NonFactor wrote:On September 05 2010 08:41 GenoZStriker wrote:On September 05 2010 08:39 Lucius2 wrote:
when exactly was zerg the best race in the beta!? Errr you don't remember when mass roach > all? Um no. Mass roach was indeed strong in >LATE GAME< the problem here is that Zerg doesen't make it to >LATE GAME< most of their games, due to their extremely weak early game and early-mid game. (Numerous factors play to this.) Zerg was never ''strong'', T and P just learned how to abuse their strenghts better against Zerg, that's all. Dimaga may have made Zerg look strong, but he always seemed one step ahead of everyone else and is an extremely skilled player. (Like IEM EU showed.) Anyways, yeah, lack of Zergs is getting sad. =[] But what can you do? Anyways, tuned in most of the games, been enjoying most of the games, Machine played exceptionally well. Yep, changing the Roach supply to 1 was a very critical mistake. Back then, Zerg was the best race in the endgame while sucking at all points before(how it should be). Now Zerg is merely able to compete in the lategame after being completely useless for the first 10-15 minutes. It really was a bad change. Back then all Zerg players did all game long was mass roaches. It was a very one-dimensional match-up, so they changed it. I still remember the massive bitching that ensued when it happened. Trust me, there was a period in which the Zerg and Terran positions were reversed balance-wise, and it was Zerg players who had to deal with the accusation that they were playing the ezmode race that can win without doing anything other than a-move. I don't need to trust you, I've played the beta and been following from the start. That wasn't all Zergs did, it was Roach-Hydra most of the time and there were other units as well. Increasing Roach supply still wasn't the correct move, ZvX didn't become any more interesting. The correct decision was to remove Roach's health and make the regen so that 2 marines would still kill a Roach in the same time, but having multiple units would make Roaches much less durable. This'd have had them hold the same early game usability while making them much weaker in the lategame. They also needed to reduce Hydra's supply to 1 and make it weaker with like 60 health and 8 damage attacks, along with a lower cost. What they did was make 1. Zerg lose its feel 2. Force one unit path for both ZvP and ZvT. Enough about that though, I switched my race from Zerg to Terran a week ago so I don't need to worry about these things anymore. At least the matches started now so that we can discuss the actual games! I hope Lastshadow will tech to the reactor Starport soon or he'll be in trouble Roaches in the first few weeks of Beta had 2 armor and had an upgrade that made them regen ridiculously fast even when unburrowed. Both of these features were nerfed before the food nerf came in. So yes there was a time when all Zergs built were Roaches and the race was clearly unbalanced. That's all I'm stating. What he said was not wrong at all. Roaches were only OP in the late game (3-4+ bases), where Zerg could actually pump 100 roaches due to the 1 supply cost and the larvae stacking. The regen upgrade required Tier 3, so it still didn't fix their early game vulnerabilities. But yes, Zerg was quite strong for a brief period before all the nerfs. What he said was not wrong at all, it was just not relevant to what I said. Roaches were nerfed because they were considered too one-dimensional and too powerful late-game. No one's debating that they could be held back early game in small numbers if you rushed the counters.
Even back then the Terrans could have destroyed Zergs in the earlygame, just like they can now. They just hadn't realized it yet. It was only fair that Zerg would have an advantage in the lategame. It was a mistake.
Mass colossus is pretty powerful. I kind of hope that lastshadow loses this
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On September 05 2010 03:22 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 03:19 Jyvblamo wrote:On September 05 2010 03:15 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On September 05 2010 03:12 epik151 wrote:On September 05 2010 02:41 JoshSuth wrote:
Latest rumor is that IdrA may not be playing in this at all. I'll keep you posted on what I find out. Would like to know more about this. Is he busy or is it because of problems with IEM? I imagine the time issue. It's 3am in Korea right now and he had the GSL earlier. He might be too exhausted. Or maybe tossing the first round out for sleep and playing the 2nd and 3rd round matches. Purely speculation on my part, but makes sense. I think that it's more likely that he can't make it to the finals in NYC. IEM finals is October 8th where the GSL final (if idra got there) is October 2nd? According to some information I just checked, that is.
doesnt gsl season2 start october 8thish?
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I kind of wish image macros were allowed so all the threads that break down into balance discussions could have the "oh, it's this thread again" stapled onto them.
As for the games, I think Artosis was rightfully frustrated (drewbie even said the reason he does the multiple drops is because it takes way more APM to stop than to do), but stuff like that is kinda unprofessional coming from anybody. A lot of it just comes off like Artosis feels entitled to act the way he does, when he doesn't have the record or the skill the idrA does to even argue the point.
And I'm sad idrA is playing GSL over this just because it means I have to stay up obscenely late to watch his games. Would be so much easier to keep up if he was playing IEM
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Serious Lastshadow? Dropping again? Lame....
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EPT
