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On May 24 2010 07:32 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 07:31 figq wrote:On May 24 2010 07:10 Moon200 wrote:
They have the replay, but because of patch 13 they can't view it. They are waiting for Blizzard to fix this before they cast it. Worst case: they just tell us who won. How/Where is going to be announced when the NonY-TLO's going to be broadcasted on ustream? On HD and Husky's Youtube channels and the first page in this thread. You will also see it in the upcoming events to the right of the screen. Of course given that they get the replays to work. Thanks a lot.
On May 24 2010 07:34 HDstarcraft wrote:There is still no way to load the replays currently. If you are not bound to using only official ways (which you probably have to, unfortunately), replays for a prev. patch could be run using some of the unofficial launchers.
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Bottom line:
WhiteRa and Idra both played amazingly well throughout the entire tournament; congratulations to both of them 
GG fellas!
And Husky and HD, you guys are AWESOME!
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Alright, for people who STILL think mass Colossi cannot be beat, watch this game between Sen vs. White-Ra:
http://vod.plu.cn/esports/sc2/vod/649.html
Turn off the Chinese commentary. Tune to around the 32:00 minute mark when the actual match begins (yes, there's 30 minutes of commercial in the VOD).
Same strategy (defensive mass expand by White-Ra with colossi). Same map (Metalopolis). Sen wins decisively.
Spoilers: Note how Sen never fights 200/200 head-on with the colossi ball. He's always fighting with multiple control groups, forcing White-Ra to move his army, and using the positional advantage to crush White-Ra's economy, abusing Zerg's ability to replace armies incredibly quickly. Most importantly, he has assassin corrupters (6-8 of them) which are sniping off colossi in every single encounter. White-Ra was never allowed to have more than 2-3 colossi in any engagement.
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On May 24 2010 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 07:33 Grettin wrote:On May 24 2010 07:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 24 2010 07:07 Grettin wrote:On May 24 2010 07:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
SureYouCan:
Troll?
Did you even watch the finals?
We're all explaining to you how Idra lost. And it's not because FFs are overpowered -.-' The games would have been different IF the forcefields wouldn't be that good. You saw it yourself in metalopolis. Because of the forcefields, White-Ra was able to cut the army to half and block those infestors which were a huge part of IdrA's army. But it could still turn out to be victory for white-ra. Except Idra should have known that would happen because...
In every game that WhiteRa plays, he uses forcefields incredibly well.
So Idra should have made units that don't get screwed over by forcefield, like air units... which would have ALSO raped the collossi. He can harrass the collossi with air while nydusing/running/dropping his ground forces into WhiteRa's base, just like he did against Nony. It's really not that hard. I must admit that you have a good point here. But yeah, still wont change my opinion about forcefields, even that im a protoss player myself. Thanks I'm a Protoss player too, and I incorporate FFs a little into my play... but we simply don't see everybody using them as perfectly as WhiteRa. This means that the spell isn't overpowered; just that WhiteRa has great control! If FF was overpowered, then all Protosses would be steamrolling all ground vs. ground armies easily because *splitting armies in half is soooo broken easy with FF zomg!*. And that simply doesn't happen. But yeah, Idra had a bunch of other things he could have done instead of directly engage WhiteRa with the current units he had as well
Yeah well, it really doesn't require much skill to split enemy forces in half. Especially when colossus has so huge range with the upgrade, it is the major point of the fight.
E: And im not saying that white-ra isn't sick with forcefields, infact he is, but you got the point.
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On May 24 2010 07:41 alfybet wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 07:28 RageOverdose wrote:On May 24 2010 07:17 SureYouCan wrote:
Seriously people... Sen is asian. I know its difficult to imagine, especially with the CRUSHING DEFEAT EUROPE IS GETTING HANDED TO THEM BY ASIA. But non asian players TEND to lose against asian players. They. Are. Better. They prove this every time theres a tournament. Stop comparing Sen, a player far above WhiteRa and Idra in skill level, to Idra. They are better because of how MUCH they fucking play in comparison to us. The competition is so much stronger in South Korea because everyone is playing. So you get a lot more great players, and a lot of lesser players that still know what good play is. And also more ignorant players too, probably. It's mostly a cultural thing. Most of the non-Asian players don't even get a chance to practice against the higher level that their scene has. However, Idra does get this chance, does he not? Isn't he the one playing with them? If he practices as much as he should, logically he should be on par with them. All you just said was white people are inferior. Agree with most of this except the end. There is only 1 Idra, and like 50 or however many people in Asia with the same talent and playing just as much as him. It's unlikely that Idra would really be on par with whoever of the 50 asians turn out to be the best. He's already doing really well according to the asia ladder rankings that were released.
None of this has anything to do with what I said. And the bolded part just reaffirms what I said with him being on par. If they are just as talented and playing just as much, then he should be on par with them.
I'm not saying Idra is better than Sen. I'm just saying that if asians are so good, then Idra playing on the Asia server means he's learning what makes them good and practicing against/with that. Therefore, his game should be far ahead based upon that poster's logic.
But there's a lot we probably don't know either, so I think this argument is senseless, don't you?
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Very GGs today. I thoroughly enjoyed the tournament - thanks Husky and HD!
The finals were a pretty sweet series. I would have liked to see Idra play out games 5 and 6. He shouldn't have gone so all in during that final battle, I thought he could have pulled out and macroed up.
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On May 24 2010 07:09 Azarkon wrote:
Sen not only beat White-Ra 3-2 the first time they met in the EU vs. Asia tournament, a week or so ago, but also beat him again 4-2 very recently in the Kaspersky Cup, which I believe happened either right before or right after the IdrA games.
In the early set, there was a 200/200 battle on Steppes when Sen abused Brood Lords to crush a 200/200 Protoss army. EVERYBODY was crying ZERG IMBA then. However, this forced White-Ra to incorporate Void Rays into his later armies and he managed to 2-0 Check in the 17173 World Cup in the same situation (200/200 against Brood Lords).
Recently, Sen and White-Ra played another Bo7 and this time Sen simply didn't allow White-Ra to get into the late game. He exploited every hole in White-Ra's defense, running speedlings into his base, dropping hydras and roaches, abusing muta harass, etc. etc. White-Ra was not able to break Sen (who is also very much a macro player)'s sunken defense and basically got out-macro'd every game.
The crazy part about this series, imo, is not Game 5. People are focusing too much on IdrA's macro loss. I don't know what happened in IdrA's mind, but simply put, he had the wrong unit composition at the wrong time at the wrong place. There was NO reason why IdrA shoudl've went for a 200/200 battle. He did NOT wait for NonY to mass up colossi so I don't know why he let White-Ra do it. He should've had Spire tech much earlier or at least did some of the excellent, excellent drops he did against Nony. Instead, he went for a head on 200/200 fight against colossi with infestors as his only clutch, and lost to force fields.
He gambled, he lost, let's move on.
A single game is not that big of a deal. The two games that I was surprised IdrA lost were the other two - the one on Desert Oasis, when White-Ra managed to break him with a 4-gate push (Sen never lost to White-Ra on this map), the one on Steppes, when he failed an all-in after being denied his expo (Sen, in the same situation, held off the early zealots and then sunken defensed into victory).
The game on Blistering Sands, when he simply got broken by an stunningly well-timed push from White-Ra, was understandable, as he simply did not have the composition to beat and White-Ra had perfect positioning with his colossi. I should note that Sen, in the same situation, did a quick zergling rush that bypassed White-Ra's forge defense and won him the deciding game of the Bo5 that they played last week. It was a clutch win any case - IdrA's style precluded him from doing that so I guess it was a necessary loss.
TLDR: while there could be imbalances in the match-up, it is NOT the case that IdrA lost solely because of imbalance in Game 5. He lost because of the OTHER games in the series. Hell, the game on Desert Oasis should have been a victory as Zerg is heavily favored on that map, and then he just needed to win either Steppes or Blistering Sands to pull out a win against White-Ra.
Having said that, White-Ra has gained a TREMENDOUS amount of experience fighting Sen and other top Asian Zergs in macro games, and it just shows here. He still doesn't use HTs as much as he should, perhaps, but his PvZ is definitely one of the best in the world right now and it's understandable that IdrA lost.
Great post, I don't agree with every thing, but well said.
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Idra make a poor decision. That cost him the game simple like that.
Gj Ra, Idra and Nony.
Great commentaries by Husky and HD keep the good work.
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One thing I found utterly amazing was that Ustream was handling 25k+ players at one point and there weren't any issues that I saw. That's pretty amazing.
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On May 24 2010 06:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 06:42 hefty wrote:
Thanks for a good tournament.
I have to say though, that HD and husky could be a bit more respectful towards the players. They talked a lot about IdrA's "rage quit", although he only did that one game. Rest of the time he was acting rather graciously, yet it was called "rage quitting" again in the last game.
Commentators can be biased as well, sure, but they seemed to thrive on IdrA's misfortune. Apparently you've never heard of Idra before, and what he's best known for: Being really good at StarCraft, and being incredibly bad-mannered. It was incredibly surprising to EVERYONE that he announced "gg" before leaving the first, third, and fourth games he lost to WhiteRa. He almost never does that. He's traditionally known for whining about losses and certain builds (like cheeses/rushes) and simply leaving games without telling his opponent "gg". Everyone busts him for it, because it's not a good-mannered thing to do. That doesn't make him a bad player (obviously), but he deserves to be made fun of when he portrays bad manners 99% of the time. He has a reputation.
Yeah, I know IdrA. I have followed the sc scene for 5+ years.
He deserves to be made fun of? Perhabs, but not when he is behaving pretty well. Shouldn't you encourage people when they improve on bad behavior? I would say so. If you treat him equally when he is mannered and when he is not, why should he improve?
Well, I guess he might not care, I still think we should give credit where it's due, and certainly commentators should be expected to behave somewhat professionally.
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On May 24 2010 08:04 Aurdon wrote:
One thing I found utterly amazing was that Ustream was handling 25k+ players at one point and there weren't any issues that I saw. That's pretty amazing.
Yeah, I was almost as nervous about the stream crashing like I was about the game.  The only problem seemed to be that some people saw the stream as offline when they tried to connect.
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Wow ... I seriously wasn't expecting WhiteRa to win ... (was still hoping)
thanks for a great tournament. REALLY entertaining (this sort of commentary makes SC2 as a spectator sport more enjoyable for "fresh" players like me)
i think HD & H lolled more at the fact that idrA hasn't done anything to deny his bad rep (it is commonly accepted that you gg after an SC match ... just like you would flip your King over after a lost game of chess) - not a sign of being biased
thanks Irip, thanks ustream, thanks blizz etc etc etc
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On May 24 2010 08:04 hefty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 06:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 24 2010 06:42 hefty wrote:
Thanks for a good tournament.
I have to say though, that HD and husky could be a bit more respectful towards the players. They talked a lot about IdrA's "rage quit", although he only did that one game. Rest of the time he was acting rather graciously, yet it was called "rage quitting" again in the last game.
Commentators can be biased as well, sure, but they seemed to thrive on IdrA's misfortune. Apparently you've never heard of Idra before, and what he's best known for: Being really good at StarCraft, and being incredibly bad-mannered. It was incredibly surprising to EVERYONE that he announced "gg" before leaving the first, third, and fourth games he lost to WhiteRa. He almost never does that. He's traditionally known for whining about losses and certain builds (like cheeses/rushes) and simply leaving games without telling his opponent "gg". Everyone busts him for it, because it's not a good-mannered thing to do. That doesn't make him a bad player (obviously), but he deserves to be made fun of when he portrays bad manners 99% of the time. He has a reputation. Yeah, I know IdrA. I have followed the sc scene for 5+ years. He deserves to be made fun of? Perhabs, but not when he is behaving pretty well. Shouldn't you encourage people when they improve on bad behavior? I would say so. If you treat him equally when he is mannered and when he is not, why should he improve? Well, I guess he might not care, I still think we should give credit where it's due, and certainly commentators should be expected to behave somewhat professionally.
I think that commentators should be able to commentate games... so if that's what you mean by "somewhat professionally", then sure. HD and Husky both behave "somewhat professionally" in my opinion... and I'm not surprised at all that they pointed out when Idra pulled *an Idra* by being bad-mannered. That's his stereotype.
And as far as positive reinforcement goes... come on now, Idra isn't a six year old. He can be bad-mannered if he wants, but he's simply not going to get as much respect. People consider him to be a douchebag because he's a bm player. I don't think he cares about that reputation (or else he'd "gg" all the time), but it's going to reflect negatively on him.
I just think he's gotten to the point where everyone's completely surprised if he does anything remotely standard (like saying "gg"). We'd piss ourselves if he ever said "Nice job"; and we'd announce it too... because that's Idra's reputation. I don't think it's a commentator's job to IGNORE the traits of the players; if anything, they should also point out why each player is unique.
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As one of the strongest idra haters on this planet I have two things to say:
#1 Idra seemed way more in control of his anger than usually, so props to him for that.
#2 Imho Game 5 was the summary of some crucial mistakes and had nothing to do with the map or Sentries being imbalanced. Idra was maxed out long before the final battle but decided not to attack, thus giving White-Ra valuable time to catch up. Furthermore he had a bad army composition, having no corruptors(!)/brood lords/mutas. And finally he engaged the Protoss army head on when he had many other options utilizing the advantages of his race more.
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On May 24 2010 08:04 Aurdon wrote:
One thing I found utterly amazing was that Ustream was handling 25k+ players at one point and there weren't any issues that I saw. That's pretty amazing.
This was a prerecorded cast.
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By the way, I just looked at the Kaspersky Cup results again.
Oh, the irony: Sen beat White-Ra on EVERY map that IdrA lost on, but lost on LT (the map that IdrA won on) and Scrap Station (which was never played here).
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Can somebody tell me what happened to the Nony Vs TLO stream/videos?
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On May 24 2010 08:22 Glendoor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 08:04 Aurdon wrote:
One thing I found utterly amazing was that Ustream was handling 25k+ players at one point and there weren't any issues that I saw. That's pretty amazing.
This was a prerecorded cast.
But 25k+ players were watching the prerecorded cast right?
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EPT
