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First of all, all of this force-field whining makes it sound like patch 13 hasn't been released. It's only been out one day and I'm sure there will be an optimal anti-FF build.
Second of all, HD and Husky both favored Idra to sweep these games. Idra has beaten WhiteRa before in BW after all. I think their so-called bias was just surprise and enthusiasm.
Lastly, Idra had a number of options on that game-turning point on Metalopolis. Not all of them are great, but are a lot better than a-moving like he did (which he did thought he was going to come out on top). Burrowed infestors, simply not engaging, corruptors into broodlords, splitting his army and doing drops like he did against Nony, sacking units to make a better composition. He may lose half of his army by running from FF, but Zerg on 4 bases can quickly replenish lost units with an even better composition.
Idra's mechanics are better, but White-Ra knew his macro style and played against that. Little things like forcing Idra to build zerglings and roaches instead of drones and Idra defending that game 3 cheese was what made these games exciting. It's like people were expecting to see a mothership come out or something.
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The best explanation of how Idra should have done it is, well, Idra's 3-0 series against Nony in the previous round, where the all-powerful forcefield somehow didn't save Nony. Keep in mind Nony's an excellent, top-drawer player who has beaten Idra in the past.
Spamming forcefields at the right moment IS hugely powerful and in the right situation is an I win button. That's the point. The essence of strategy is to put your opponent in a situation where it is not even remotely a fair fight. White-Ra managed very cleverly to engineer such situations and Idra didn't manage to spot and avoid them. The fact that White-Ra can set up such situations doesn't make Idra a better player who loses because of forcefields, it means that White-Ra is a superb Protoss player who can bring the game to a place where it is HIS strength (a forcefield-divided decisive battle) and not Idra's (overwhelming macro) that determines the fight. Nony was not able to do this despite being very skilled, and Idra very very nearly kept White-Ra from doing it.
These were two grandmaster players at the height of foreign play clashing. Boiling it down to 'forcefields will always win' is just wrong. Both of them gave some brilliant play; in the end White-Ra just was able to stack the deck a little more in his favor and keep Idra from running wild with macro like he did vs most of the others he faced in this tournament.
Re bias: I think HD and Husky, like a lot of us, were expecting an Idra walkover and got excited when it became apparent this was not going to be the case. Likewise Idra has that reputation for a sharp tongue and ragequits, and they were waiting for a sign of it and jumped when it finally did sort of appear. I say sort of because really he was on pretty good behavior. I didn't get any impression that they wanted White-Ra to win over Idra; I think they were just excited and gratified that it was going to be a close and unexpected 6-game series instead of a 3-0 Idra rout as had been feared, which would have been good for the winner but not as interesting. If it had been a 4-3 Idra win I think they'd have been just as pleased or more so.
Congrats to both players for some incredible play, and to the commentators from the tournament. 
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On May 24 2010 07:16 iEchoic wrote:
The people crying about imbalance because of one game are pathetic. Get a life, really, guys.
There were SEVERAL things idrA could have done to take control of that game:
a) Attacked earlier, as he got 200/200 and sat on it, even with the ability to produce faster
b) Researched burrow
c) Position his infestors better so that they didn't get blocked by forcefields
d) Fight in an open field and not a 90 degree corridor
Just play the game and look for counters, and then you can cry, but until then, give it a rest.
Yeah guys... get a life... or maybe you could fuck the hell right off?
B is a stupid suggestion. What did you want him to do with burrow? C is equally stupid. Maybe they could have burrowed to a closer position so they could get insta killed. D where exactly could whitera have not created a 90 degree corridor?
So many posters in this thread with such a limited view of the game.
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On May 24 2010 07:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 07:07 thelin79 wrote:
I have been trying to find it here in between these troll QQ posts and what not, but sadly failed..
So perhaps anyone can inform me who won 3rd place? And how the match series for it ended?
thanks in advance. The matches between TLO and Nony for third place have not been released yet :-(
Don't click if you don't want to see who won between TLO and Nony
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.readmore.de/index.php?cont=matches&id=27721
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On May 24 2010 07:09 Azarkon wrote:
Sen not only beat White-Ra 3-2 the first time they met in the EU vs. Asia tournament, a week or so ago, but also beat him again 4-2 very recently in the Kaspersky Cup, which I believe happened either right before or right after the IdrA games.
In the early set, there was a 200/200 battle on Steppes when Sen abused Brood Lords to crush a 200/200 Protoss army. EVERYBODY was crying ZERG IMBA then. However, this forced White-Ra to incorporate Void Rays into his later armies and he managed to 2-0 Check in the 17173 World Cup in the same situation (200/200 against Brood Lords).
Recently, Sen and White-Ra played another Bo7 and this time Sen simply didn't allow White-Ra to get into the late game. He exploited every hole in White-Ra's defense, running speedlings into his base, dropping hydras and roaches, abusing muta harass, etc. etc. White-Ra was not able to break Sen (who is also very much a macro player)'s sunken defense and basically got out-macro'd every game.
The crazy part about this series, imo, is not Game 5. People are focusing too much on IdrA's macro loss. I don't know what happened in IdrA's mind, but simply put, he had the wrong unit composition at the wrong time at the wrong place. There was NO reason why IdrA shoudl've went for a 200/200 battle. He did NOT wait for NonY to mass up colossi so I don't know why he let White-Ra do it. He should've had Spire tech much earlier or at least did some of the excellent, excellent drops he did against Nony. Instead, he went for a head on 200/200 fight against colossi with infestors as his only clutch, and lost to force fields.
He gambled, he lost, let's move on.
A single game is not that big of a deal. The two games that I was surprised IdrA lost were the other two - the one on Desert Oasis, when White-Ra managed to break him with a 4-gate push (Sen never lost to White-Ra on this map), the one on Steppes, when he failed an all-in after being denied his expo (Sen, in the same situation, held off the early zealots and then sunken defensed into victory).
The game on Blistering Sands, when he simply got broken by an stunningly well-timed push from White-Ra, was understandable, as he simply did not have the composition to beat and White-Ra had perfect positioning with his colossi. I should note that Sen, in the same situation, did a quick zergling rush that bypassed White-Ra's forge defense and won him the deciding game of the Bo5 that they played last week. It was a clutch win any case - IdrA's style precluded him from doing that so I guess it was a necessary loss.
TLDR: while there could be imbalances in the match-up, it is NOT the case that IdrA lost solely because of imbalance in Game 5. He lost because of the OTHER games in the series. Hell, the game on Desert Oasis should have been a victory as Zerg is heavily favored on that map, and then he just needed to win either Steppes or Blistering Sands to pull out a win against White-Ra.
Having said that, White-Ra has gained a TREMENDOUS amount of experience fighting Sen and other top Asian Zergs in macro games, and it just shows here. He still doesn't use HTs as much as he should, perhaps, but his PvZ is definitely one of the best in the world right now and it's understandable that IdrA lost.
This ..and I think F91 have chance to eliminate White-Ra, If Ra play the same strat as this series,4 matchs build colossus.
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On May 24 2010 07:17 SureYouCan wrote:
Seriously people... Sen is asian. I know its difficult to imagine, especially with the CRUSHING DEFEAT EUROPE IS GETTING HANDED TO THEM BY ASIA. But non asian players TEND to lose against asian players. They. Are. Better. They prove this every time theres a tournament. Stop comparing Sen, a player far above WhiteRa and Idra in skill level, to Idra.
IMO, that's a RIDICULOUS argument. Sen is not only beating EUROPEAN Protosses or AMERICAN Protosses. He 5-0'd Inca (one of the best Korean Protosses). He 2-1'd Xiaot (who beat Cezanne, one of the best Korean Zergs). There are NO Protoss, in Asia or elsewhere, currently capable of standing up against Sen, at least not from tournament results.
So either Sen is just so much better than everyone else in the world, or the match-up is not unwinnable. Get over it.
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On May 24 2010 07:20 Vexx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 07:16 iEchoic wrote:
The people crying about imbalance because of one game are pathetic. Get a life, really, guys.
There were SEVERAL things idrA could have done to take control of that game:
a) Attacked earlier, as he got 200/200 and sat on it, even with the ability to produce faster
b) Researched burrow
c) Position his infestors better so that they didn't get blocked by forcefields
d) Fight in an open field and not a 90 degree corridor
Just play the game and look for counters, and then you can cry, but until then, give it a rest. Yeah guys... get a life... or maybe you could fuck the hell right off? B is a stupid suggestion. What did you want him to do with burrow? C is equally stupid. Maybe they could have burrowed to a closer position so they could get insta killed. D where exactly could whitera have not created a 90 degree corridor? So many posters in this thread with such a limited view of the game.
Another pissed Idra fan? That Mood thingie is pretty usefull yes?
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On May 24 2010 07:17 SureYouCan wrote:
Seriously people... Sen is asian. I know its difficult to imagine, especially with the CRUSHING DEFEAT EUROPE IS GETTING HANDED TO THEM BY ASIA. But non asian players TEND to lose against asian players. They. Are. Better. They prove this every time theres a tournament. Stop comparing Sen, a player far above WhiteRa and Idra in skill level, to Idra.
Right, so your argument is that forcefields are imbalanced, as long as the player isn't good enough to deal with them? I think there is a flaw there lol.
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SpaceElvis deserves a cookie.
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On May 24 2010 07:17 SureYouCan wrote:
Seriously people... Sen is asian. I know its difficult to imagine, especially with the CRUSHING DEFEAT EUROPE IS GETTING HANDED TO THEM BY ASIA. But non asian players TEND to lose against asian players. They. Are. Better. They prove this every time theres a tournament. Stop comparing Sen, a player far above WhiteRa and Idra in skill level, to Idra.
This is so true, Sen can not be compared to Idra. Although whitera did give sen some beating, Sen was simply a lot better.
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Are vods or replays of the final available? Unfortunately I had to be out during the cast.
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On May 24 2010 07:07 Warrior Madness wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 06:52 hydraden wrote:
Idra needs to see vods of Sen beating white-ra.
What sen did are drops, and attacking several places at the same time.
Even with a smaller economy, sen won the match.
That's how zerg can win protoss in late game, not macro.
When did whtie ra play sen exactly? Where are the links to this VOD? Was it during the world cup?
It is in Kaspersky Cup(Plu.cn).
That's also a BO7 series.
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Just imagine how many more roaches Idra could of had in his 200/200 if they still costed 1 supply...
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On May 24 2010 07:24 Polska wrote:
Are vods or replays of the final available? Unfortunately I had to be out during the cast.
They will be on youtube in a few days.
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On May 24 2010 07:20 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 07:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 24 2010 07:07 thelin79 wrote:
I have been trying to find it here in between these troll QQ posts and what not, but sadly failed..
So perhaps anyone can inform me who won 3rd place? And how the match series for it ended?
thanks in advance. The matches between TLO and Nony for third place have not been released yet :-( Don't click if you don't want to see who won between TLO and Nony + Show Spoiler +http://www.readmore.de/index.php?cont=matches&id=27721
Oh snap! I can't wait to see the games!
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Congratulations White Ra 
Idra is human after all ... His macro is so good I was wondering if he could be beaten.
Unfortunately, once Idra recovers, he will only become harder to beat next time.
A good loss can be very informative...
I look forward to seeing new strategies from him, and I doubt he will change race unless he sees
something truly unwinnable for zerg .. unlikely.
Congrats to all the players and the commentators on a great tournament.
I look forward to "Idra's Vengence" ...
Cheers!
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On May 24 2010 07:20 Vexx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 07:16 iEchoic wrote:
The people crying about imbalance because of one game are pathetic. Get a life, really, guys.
There were SEVERAL things idrA could have done to take control of that game:
a) Attacked earlier, as he got 200/200 and sat on it, even with the ability to produce faster
b) Researched burrow
c) Position his infestors better so that they didn't get blocked by forcefields
d) Fight in an open field and not a 90 degree corridor
Just play the game and look for counters, and then you can cry, but until then, give it a rest. Yeah guys... get a life... or maybe you could fuck the hell right off? B is a stupid suggestion. What did you want him to do with burrow? C is equally stupid. Maybe they could have burrowed to a closer position so they could get insta killed. D where exactly could whitera have not created a 90 degree corridor? So many posters in this thread with such a limited view of the game.
You're right, those are terrible suggestions. The best idea is simply to a-move your forces into a 200/200 army positioned perfectly to cut you off with forcefields. What a valuable post, and thanks for your whiny condescension.
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On May 24 2010 07:24 Polska wrote:
Are vods or replays of the final available? Unfortunately I had to be out during the cast.
Not yet; the finals were just cast an hour or two ago... they'll be up in a week or so.
Speaking of which, not all of the semi-final matches are up on HD and Husky's channels yet.
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EPT
