On May 24 2010 06:52 hydraden wrote: Idra needs to see vods of Sen beating white-ra.
What sen did are drops, and attacking several places at the same time. Even with a smaller economy, sen won the match. That's how zerg can win protoss in late game, not macro.
When did whtie ra play sen exactly? Where are the links to this VOD? Was it during the world cup?
On May 24 2010 06:59 SureYouCan wrote: Wow you really explained the great micro and mechanics White-Ra used to get out played at every point. Out macroed and out microed. I also forgot how they had forcefields in Broodwar. It must have taken every ounce of APM and will power to create a wall directly on top of a 200/200 capped zerg army and completely decimate it without losing more than 10-20 pop yourself. Must have been that GREAT positioning behind that forcefield wall he created.
You're completely ignoring the fact that IdrA made the awful mistake of a-moving into 400 colossi. Regardless of forcefields, this is never a good idea.
But keep reiterating your opinion, I'm sure you'll convince someone sooner or later.
What else can you do into collosi? They will have an obs with their army if they are smart.. you can't burrow. Forcefields plus that many colossi is basically impossible to stop. the FFs clearly stopped the infestors from doing anything too.
Either way, you will have to engage the army at some point. You can't say him A-moving lost him the game...
On May 24 2010 07:07 thelin79 wrote: I have been trying to find it here in between these troll QQ posts and what not, but sadly failed.. So perhaps anyone can inform me who won 3rd place? And how the match series for it ended?
thanks in advance.
The matches between TLO and Nony for third place have not been released yet :-(
You can't just sit back and let a Protoss take 4 bases, build up a high supply, high tech, high damage, end-game army and then expect to roll him with roach and hydra a-move.
Sen not only beat White-Ra 3-2 the first time they met in the EU vs. Asia tournament, a week or so ago, but also beat him again 4-2 very recently in the Kaspersky Cup, which I believe happened either right before or right after the IdrA games.
In the early set, there was a 200/200 battle on Steppes when Sen abused Brood Lords to crush a 200/200 Protoss army. EVERYBODY was crying ZERG IMBA then. However, this forced White-Ra to incorporate Void Rays into his later armies and he managed to 2-0 Check in the 17173 World Cup in the same situation (200/200 against Brood Lords).
Recently, Sen and White-Ra played another Bo7 and this time Sen simply didn't allow White-Ra to get into the late game. He exploited every hole in White-Ra's defense, running speedlings into his base, dropping hydras and roaches, abusing muta harass, etc. etc. White-Ra was not able to break Sen (who is also very much a macro player)'s sunken defense and basically got out-macro'd every game.
The crazy part about this series, imo, is not Game 5. People are focusing too much on IdrA's macro loss. I don't know what happened in IdrA's mind, but simply put, he had the wrong unit composition at the wrong time at the wrong place. There was NO reason why IdrA shoudl've went for a 200/200 battle. He did NOT wait for NonY to mass up colossi so I don't know why he let White-Ra do it. He should've had Spire tech much earlier or at least did some of the excellent, excellent drops he did against Nony. Instead, he went for a head on 200/200 fight against colossi with infestors as his only clutch, and lost to force fields.
He gambled, he lost, let's move on.
A single game is not that big of a deal. The two games that I was surprised IdrA lost were the other two - the one on Desert Oasis, when White-Ra managed to break him with a 4-gate push (Sen never lost to White-Ra on this map), the one on Steppes, when he failed an all-in after being denied his expo (Sen, in the same situation, held off the early zealots and then sunken defensed into victory).
The game on Blistering Sands, when he simply got broken by an stunningly well-timed push from White-Ra, was understandable, as he simply did not have the composition to beat and White-Ra had perfect positioning with his colossi. I should note that Sen, in the same situation, did a quick zergling rush that bypassed White-Ra's forge defense and won him the deciding game of the Bo5 that they played last week. It was a clutch win any case - IdrA's style precluded him from doing that so I guess it was a necessary loss.
TLDR: while there could be imbalances in the match-up, it is NOT the case that IdrA lost solely because of imbalance in Game 5. He lost because of the OTHER games in the series. Hell, the game on Desert Oasis should have been a victory as Zerg is heavily favored on that map, and then he just needed to win either Steppes or Blistering Sands to pull out a win against White-Ra.
Having said that, White-Ra has gained a TREMENDOUS amount of experience fighting Sen and other top Asian Zergs in macro games, and it just shows here. He still doesn't use HTs as much as he should, perhaps, but his PvZ is definitely one of the best in the world right now and it's understandable that IdrA lost.
On May 24 2010 07:02 Sophus wrote: Thanks a lot for this tournament. I've never played any starcraft game; I don't really play computer games at all. One month ago I didn't even know what a nexus is. I obviously don't really belong to the whole community here. But Husky and HD got me.
And if you can make such a newbie like me shouting in ecstasy at a casted computer game, then you can get everyone.
Good luck for any future projects.
If genuine this is the best praise a tournament like this can get, exactly what the SC2 Scene needs. Great tournament hope for 32+ players come the release .
Burrow/ultras post13/Corrupters, all possibiliies. Could also attack a little before he gets 200/200 knowing he has the resource advantage to just keep the waves coming.
On May 24 2010 07:08 SureYouCan wrote: He had the perfect solution to the protoss army. A BIGGER FUCKING ARMY. Were we watching the same game?!
Wtf were corruptors going to do when his hydras cant kill any of the stalkers because of forcefield.
That's not the perfect solution, you have no idea what you're even talking about. Corrupters in combination with attacking in an area that wasn't the worst place on the map would have been a good start.
On May 24 2010 07:07 thelin79 wrote: I have been trying to find it here in between these troll QQ posts and what not, but sadly failed.. So perhaps anyone can inform me who won 3rd place? And how the match series for it ended?
thanks in advance.
They have the replay, but because of patch 13 they can't view it. They are waiting for Blizzard to fix this before they cast it. Worst case: they just tell us who won.
On May 24 2010 07:07 thelin79 wrote: I have been trying to find it here in between these troll QQ posts and what not, but sadly failed.. So perhaps anyone can inform me who won 3rd place? And how the match series for it ended?
thanks in advance.
They have the replay, but because of patch 13 they can't view it. They are waiting for Blizzard to fix this before they cast it. Worst case: they just tell us who won.
In a way I am more interested to see the TLO / Nony games than I was to see White-Ra & Idra.
On May 24 2010 07:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: SureYouCan:
Troll?
Did you even watch the finals?
We're all explaining to you how Idra lost. And it's not because FFs are overpowered -.-'
The games would have been different IF the forcefields wouldn't be that good. You saw it yourself in metalopolis. Because of the forcefields, White-Ra was able to cut the army to half and block those infestors which were a huge part of IdrA's army. But it could still turn out to be victory for white-ra.
Except Idra should have known that would happen because...
In every game that WhiteRa plays, he uses forcefields incredibly well.
So Idra should have made units that don't get screwed over by forcefield, like air units... which would have ALSO raped the collossi. He can harrass the collossi with air while nydusing/running/dropping his ground forces into WhiteRa's base, just like he did against Nony.
On May 24 2010 07:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: SureYouCan:
Troll?
Did you even watch the finals?
We're all explaining to you how Idra lost. And it's not because FFs are overpowered -.-'
The games would have been different IF the forcefields wouldn't be that good. You saw it yourself in metalopolis. Because of the forcefields, White-Ra was able to cut the army to half and block those infestors which were a huge part of IdrA's army. But it could still turn out to be victory for white-ra.
Any game could turn out differently if something wouldn't be as good as they are. If Idra had the proper counters to Colossi he could have won and someone might say, "the game would have been different if corruptors wouldn't be that good", or whatever. What does this prove?
On May 24 2010 07:08 SureYouCan wrote: He had the perfect solution to the protoss army. A BIGGER FUCKING ARMY. Were we watching the same game?!
Wtf were corruptors going to do when his hydras cant kill any of the stalkers because of forcefield.
Have you never seen a heavily Corruptor'd army vs a heavily colossus'd army? Stalkers take an age to kill Corruptors; they can quite easily move in and snipe the Colossus and then retreat without the Stalkers killing too many of them. After that, the zerg can morph to Broodlord which are extremely strong against gateway units. I seriously suggest you watch the 2 WhiteRa vs Sen matches where all of this happened.
Great tourney, thanks a lot to Husky, HD, iRip and big congrats to White-Ra and slighty less congrats the rest of the players, except the people who lost in the first round, you were crap
The people crying about imbalance because of one game are pathetic. Get a life, really, guys.
There were SEVERAL things idrA could have done to take control of that game:
a) Attacked earlier, as he got 200/200 and sat on it, even with the ability to produce faster b) Researched burrow c) Position his infestors better so that they didn't get blocked by forcefields d) Fight in an open field and not a 90 degree corridor
Just play the game and look for counters, and then you can cry, but until then, give it a rest.
I agree that forcefield isn't what owned game 5, but you have got to be fucking confused if you think the current implementation of forcefield isn't fucked.
t1.5 unit, no research, 50 energy, indestructible (we'll see patch 13...), cast anywhere on anything. It can create chokes anywhere, split armies at any time and early on, it can defend against early attacks ridiculously long by blocking a ramp.
Any retarded monkey can do it and the benefits outweigh the cost/risk/skill(lol) 1000000x.
Seriously people... Sen is asian. I know its difficult to imagine, especially with the CRUSHING DEFEAT EUROPE IS GETTING HANDED TO THEM BY ASIA. But non asian players TEND to lose against asian players. They. Are. Better. They prove this every time theres a tournament. Stop comparing Sen, a player far above WhiteRa and Idra in skill level, to Idra.
On May 24 2010 07:07 thelin79 wrote: I have been trying to find it here in between these troll QQ posts and what not, but sadly failed.. So perhaps anyone can inform me who won 3rd place? And how the match series for it ended?
thanks in advance.
If you are really interested in the results (no replays though as far as I know) you can google it. The truth is out there!
Otherwise you just have to wait until HD and Husky get the replays to work with the new patch.
EPT
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![[image loading]](http://i47.tinypic.com/2ppa7pd.png)
