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Since i really dislike current meta as protoss, I'm seriusly thinking to switch playstyle, going for something totally out of meta using skytoss to have more fun.
I tried new patch carriers, the autoproduction of interceptor set from start is really big help, along with cost buff.
While carriers can hold mid game composition, I feel when terran but expecially Zerg air comes into play, carriers simply lost to mass corruptors/vipers.
I would like to discuss wich is the best composition late game for skytoss.
Currently my tests brought me to this:
I start nexus first everytime I can, then I go stargate first.
Stargate is importart, for defense and scout purpose, plus it will be my main tech in lategame. My production is first oracle, then 1 phoenix, then maybe another oracle.
The first oracle is made for harass/scouting purpose.
The phoenix is importart, to deny overlord scout.
The second oracle is situational, if I need more defense from mass lings or I loose the first one. Oracle are important to scout and slow zerg with statis wards.
So, with oracles, I can reach pretty safely minute 5.
Then, here it is the problem. From minute 5 to 7, I leave the zerg without pressure, queen and first hydra start to come in play and i can suffer from a timing attack. This because during this time I'm hard teching to TC and robo both.
Anyway, after stargate, i place 2 more gateways, and I keep warp units from them, adepts or zealots.
While oracles are annoyng the zerg, i take third base, defended by msc and few adepts/zealots.
Next tech is TC, as soon it finish, I start researching charge. I add then a robo as I can, while keeping producing zealots and sinking minerals to additional gateways.
At minute 6:30, I have 7-8 zealots, a prism and 5-6 gates.I send zealots to third or fourth zerg base, while i drop chargelots in main. Here starts the real harass, while in base i put 3 more stargate and fleet beacon.
I keep pressuring zerg with double prism and chargelots, while massing carriers and taking a fourth base.
Now, I get a lot of gas banking. I'm sure I should sink it with templars, so here comes my question.
What is the ideal composition?
Mass carriers is weak vs mass hydras or zerg air. I need ground units to tank hydras, and zealots fits well. Thus, there need to be a balance in supply between carriers and ground army: If I have small ground army it dies quickly and my carriers have no cover, if carriers are too few i dont have enought dps.
Archons have really small range to make them useful vs ground (remember hydra got range buff) so they can be easly kited. Better having them as templars with storm?
How to sink all my gas?
Maybe I should not take gas on every base after third?
How many carriers should I have ideally?
As upgrades, i went for 1 ground weapon, then shield and plus weapon air.
I wonder even if adepts aren't better than zealots when facing ground, this way i can sink part og exceeding gas. Shall I harass with adepts instead of chargelots?
What compo should I have to aid carriers versus corruptor/vipers army?
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Post replays, and is this about new patch or not?
I don't really see skytoss being viable (especially new patch), I just make hydra/viper with a few ultras. Corruptors don't work well IMO against skytoss because they are too susceptible to splash. If zerg is doing that a few archons or storms should destroy that pretty quick.
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I'm surprised. Mass carrier doesn't work? Every time I'm maxed mass carrier I don't lose. If you mean around 8 carriers then you can lose a hydra fight.
Late late game add high Templar to your army to feedback vipers and storm hydras
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United Kingdom20319 Posts
Carriers are extremely dependant on having equal (or preferably better) attack upgrades vs opponents armor and your damage can be reduced by 1.25 - 1.5x by being only one upgrade behind when your opponent has 0-2 natural armor.
Phoenix's scale well too, taking that into account it can help to start +1 air attack very soon after warpgate and then +2 as soon as you have a fleet beacon. Huge blobs of hydralisks are actually one of the easier compositions to deal in my pre-patch experience but if he has more armor than you have attack you'll have a much harder time.
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Diamond 3 player. Rushing carriers exclusively in all 3 match ups (since 2012).
On August 18 2016 04:18 Weltall wrote:
I tried new patch carriers, the autoproduction of interceptor set from start is really big help, along with cost buff.
I think the reduction in cost is more important (since the health nerf made it harder to tank with the carrier itself, and 120 second build time nerfed from 90 second make it harder to hit 2 base timings) .
Anyway, after stargate, i place 2 more gateways, and I keep warp units from them, adepts or zealots.
My build order start with only 1~2 zealot/adept (unless zerg goes realy ling heavy and I might just die if I wasted oracle energy on drones). It goes gate, (gas gas) core, stargate, nexus, fast (perhaps the fastest) oracle, Fleet bacon, first carrier +1 catapult, 3rd nexus and 2nd stargate just as 1st carrier starts or finish.
You won't have enough mineral for zealots if you are fighting with carriers. (the new patch really helps if it comes through)
Mass carriers is weak vs mass hydras or zerg air. I need ground units to tank hydras, and zealots fits well. Thus, there need to be a balance in supply between carriers and ground army: If I have small ground army it dies quickly and my carriers have no cover, if carriers are too few i dont have enought dps.
Depends on the zerg opening you can hold your 3rd with 2~3 carriers and some adepts (if the terrain is favorable). Hydras of same cost with no speed upgrade will lose to carrier if he decide to chase (if he decides to shoot interceptors you might run out of minerals for adepts and die).
Archons have really small range to make them useful vs ground (remember hydra got range buff) so they can be easly kited. Better having them as templars with storm?
How to sink all my gas?
Maybe I should not take gas on every base after third?
How many carriers should I have ideally?
At the end of HOTS and beginning of LOTV (90 second build time ftw) you can hit a 2~3 carrier 2 base timing with carriers, if he 3 hatched, welp, he dies. Your first 2 carrier meet his first 8~10 hydras at his base. Spire just take too long and you can just stop building carriers and make more adepts and laugh at the 3~8 corruptors. If he wasted gas on ravagers and roach, ha yum.
Nowadays you cant do this anymore since your 1st carrier meet their 10~12 hydras mid map. If he didn't scout and actually made roach ravager or overmake lurkers you can just leave 1~2 carrier home go for base trade and or go for counter attack after.
You can't really have enough gas for transition to Templar until you get 3rd and 4-6 carriers. That is also the time you can tell after you defend the base if he goes for corruptor or more hydra. If he keeps making corruptors you can gamble and go chargelot archon or you can make void rays (only if you think you can take back the air superiority, losing capital ships just as they leave port is embarrassing).
As upgrades, i went for 1 ground weapon, then shield and plus weapon air.
I wonder even if adepts aren't better than zealots when facing ground, this way i can sink part og exceeding gas. Shall I harass with adepts instead of chargelots?
My first real unit is always carrier (so I go for air +1 first). I only make forge expecting ling attack or after 2nd nexus and have spare minerals. Against corruptor heavy compositions archons is a better gas sink. You won need more than 8 templars (I only make 4 and they all die or made into archons in the end).
What compo should I have to aid carriers versus corruptor/vipers army?
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I forgot who it was that showcased a void ray base composition on King Sejong Station in ?Proleague?. His way of defending 3rd base is force-fields and some adepts. (Personally I abhor any gas wasted on sentries unless it is really necessary).
I think you can have 10~14 carriers (at most). The rest should be void rays archons and 4 templars and if you have enough mineral make zealots (so the roaches will not kill your templars before they cast storm) (you mostly likely leech out minerals after each engagement).
I once had 16 carriers (and it didn't beat the full corruptor force and I had trouble switching to archon chargelot). So any carrier after number 12 you should plan an attack or make a mothership. (If you actually can make 16 carriers the game must be long and you should tech switch a couple times instead of keep making carriers.)
Remember carriers attack while moving and use this to kite all units that have to stop and shoot (ravagers (bile), rines hydras non-blink stalkers and to some extend corruptors).
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Basically what you want/need for an airtoss army to work is a lot of carriers, some void rays (more supply in carriers generally) and maybe some tempests (or all tempest idk I've seen that done if a pro game before). On the ground you need a few high templar and archons (6-8 templar, 3-6 archons) since they do incredible do incredible damage to corruptors and hydras which are your biggest threat, and they can feedback infestors/vipers.
One thing nobody talks about is how the Ultralisk actually hard counters the carrier; similar to how they hard counter mutalisks as well. At even upgrades, an interceptor only does 1 damage per attack vs the ultralisk, and a few archons wont help you vs ultralisks. As such, you will need a few immortals (5-6) on the ground to protect your high templar from their rampage.
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On August 20 2016 15:12 DilemaH wrote:
One thing nobody talks about is how the Ultralisk actually hard counters the carrier; similar to how they hard counter mutalisks as well. At even upgrades, an interceptor only does 1 damage per attack vs the ultralisk, and a few archons wont help you vs ultralisks. As such, you will need a few immortals (5-6) on the ground to protect your high templar from their rampage.
Ok here. If ultras tries to base trade. You make DT and snipe their Overseers. 
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I haven't played much LotV ladder but I have used skytoss heavily against zergs in both WoL and HotS, floating around plat/dia, most likely due to my relatively weak PvP because I had great success with my skytoss style. Edit: while much of the below insight comes from my experience playing WoL/HoS, hopefully this will provide you with some more perspectives of how skytoss could be played in the past and maybe better understand it's viability in LotV.
Corruptors are usually not a problem since when you scout a spire you can start building up void rays to counter. Have the carriers engage first to tank some shots then go in with the void rays while pulling the carriers back. Interceptors still attack while carriers are moving as long as they are firing at the same target so you won't lose too much dps.
Against hydralisks you need to utilize the carrier's range and the surrounding terrain properly. NEVER fly carriers out on open terrain and always plan to have cliffs/empty space near your flight path so your carriers can engage and disengage as you want. Also carrier attack upgrades are ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL. Each air attack upgrade increases carrier dps by 20% relative to their initial damage. So unless you are expecting a timing attack where you need carriers out for defense you should keep your chronoboost on your cyber core and get attack upgrades out as soon as possible. It is perfectly fine to lose interceptors, just make sure your carriers survive to fight another day. The idea is when you trade interceptors against hydras, you are gaining production capacity since you are building from both your stargates AND your carriers where as the zerg doesn't have access to more larvae unless he builds macro hatches.
Against vipers and infestors you need vision and carrier micro. You must never sacrifice your oracles even if you can kill ~15 drones by doing so. Instead keep their army, and especially their spellcasters revealed, particularly when both armies are about to clash. During a confrontation your carriers should go for the vipers immediately using the leash range micro. What you do is you target the closest target in order to launch your interceptors, therefore extending your attack range to from the launch range(8) to the leash range(14). Then once the vipers enter leash range, target them immediately with shift click while the interceptors are launched. Abduct and parasitic bomb have 9 and 8 range respectively so you MUST use leash range in order to kill them before they can do any harm. If you find yourself seeing vipers approaching while your interceptors are NOT launched, usually you should retreat immediately with msc recall. Infestor fungal growths can lock down interceptors which prevent them from attacking, but they are easier to deal with since they are slower and you can use the terrain against them. Eliminate them with the same method as above. Teching to templars is usually a bad idea unless you have enough bases since your army simply won't be big enough to do anything.
I usually don't go up against sizable corruptor/viper armies due to how my game plan attempts to restrict enemy gas income(see below). But against such a composition void rays would definitely be necessary. If the enemy doesn't have many hydras you can probably ignore the terrain factor and spread out into a concave as large as you can to minimize possible parasitic bomb damage. Of course sniping vipers with carriers will still be a top priority. If the enemy commits really heavily into corruptor/viper and you are not confident in your chances to win a fight, then simply dont fight, distract with DTs and chargelots while you carry out surgical strikes and tech to templars, again elaborated below.
Aside from the above rules of engagement, some zergs also go hydras then transition into corruptors, resulting in you having to fight a mixed army. In that case try to use the terrain to separate the air part and the ground part and you can usually win fights like those easily.
The above paragraphs answer the question of how to fight, but with skytoss when to fight is even more important. In general when I played skytoss the games went like this.
Open with FE, quick stargate for oracle and phoenix, similar to your opening. However I skip all tech and rely on msc/sentries/gateway-cannon wall for defense.
Phoenix denies overlord scout. Oracle harass and scout. Hide fleet beacon. Get one void ray to scare lings away to take a third.
Scout zerg for spire/hydra den. Spire triggers phoenixes+ range upgrade immediately. Otherwise go carriers. Skip all other tech.
By this time the zerg will probably do a hydra based timing attack if he does not go spire. I will defend my third with two +1 attack upgrade carriers, void ray, phoenix, gateway/cannon wall, photon overcharge and zealot warp ins. With the above rules of engagement it shouldn't be difficult. Be careful with building placement so you can survive a ling flood. Oracle helps a ton against that as well.
Then you react to the zerg's unit composition, if he keeps going hydras with a quick tech to hive for vipers, you can ramp up carrier production(with attack upgrades ofc). Against spire you should usually prepare for corruptors so add void rays, but get phoenix range just in case. If he surprises you with mutas you can split your carrier group into two parts while adding cannons for defense. While the carriers are slow, their range and damage should buy you enough time to get phoenixes out.
Now for the proactive part and why I enjoy this style so much. Obviously you can't let the zerg sit back and expand and tech up. So right after you have repelled the first hydra based timing you should have four carriers. Identify a target where you can most easily apply the above rules of engagement(A third base accessible by dead space ,close to main by air while far on ground for instance.) Warp in zealots to another corner of zerg territory as a diversion(a morphing forth for instance) while you attack with your carriers from another place(say a natural with cliffs behind the mineral line). Your goal is to slow the zerg's tech progression/hi tech unit production/upgrades by slowing down his gas income. Primary targets are gaysers, evo chambers and drones(make him spend more larva). However depending on your firepower(having void rays/+2attack) and the distance of the enemy army, you should snipe the hatchery and deal as much damage as possible before you are forced to recall away. Depending on the map after you snipe the hatchery you can even go deeper in and kill as many tech as possible before recalling.(Say on Whirlwind you can have your carrier fleet casually fly by the third base and kill it while you go deep into the main, kill as much tech as possible before hydras arrive, then recall). Obviously tracking enemy army movement and knowing the limits of your firepower is a must.
Repeat the above process on timings(finishing +3 air attack, or while you are expanding) as many times as you can while getting upgrades/expanding. Tech to DTs and distract the zerg with them while your growing carrier fleet goes on more and more damaging raids. Get psi storm/archon if you deem necessary. Eventually you will simply have a stronger army and you a-move across the map to victory.
So to answer the question when to fight, you fleet should fight when you are
1) Defending in advantageous positions with photon overcharge/cannon/building wall support
2) Surgically striking enemy economy/delaying tech
3) His army is out of position(hydras near cliffs on top of which you can kill a few, army separated and therefore outnumbered, army funneling through a choke point, key units like vipers aren't out yet etc)
4) When you have done enough surgical strikes and you are sure you will crush his army in an overwhelming victory
In any other situations, tread with extreme caution. The entire plan hinges on the enemy being hindered and delayed through surgical attacks while you tech/defend. Your army will be weaker than his until you have done enough damage. Do not engage before you are sure you will win due to the combined factors of terrain, army positioning and army composition and strength. If the enemy engage on you while you don't want to fight, recall asap.
Final note: ALWAYS keep your mothership core close by your main fleet to recall. Pay attention to it's positioning. The msc, your fleet, and your enemy's army(or where you expect it to be) should always form a straight line, with your fleet in between the msc and the enemy. Hopefully your fleet is above impassable terrain according to plan with an easy access to recall.
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On August 20 2016 05:30 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:
I forgot who it was that showcased a void ray base composition on King Sejong Station in ?Proleague?. His way of defending 3rd base is force-fields and some adepts. (Personally I abhor any gas wasted on sentries unless it is really necessary).
Hero successfully did this against Pet in the GSL season 2 (either code A or ro 32 Code S) on KKS. Yes he had excellent forcefields and unit control to fight the Zerg army when it tired to deny his third.
I beleive Void Rays are essential if your opponent is choosing Corruptors. There is no reason you should lose the air battle if you are properly keeping tabs on the opponents army composition. You can crank out 6 Void Rays off 3 Stargates quite quickly even reactively to a large swell of Corruptors.
I also suggest a Dark Shrine just for insurance purposes after 3 bases are saturated. You don't have to harass with the DTs. They are a very useful defensive unit when not strategically revealed earlier. In addition, even if they have detection, typically as the battle thins out you have an opportunity to snipe the Overseers, then reinforce with DTs warp ins. Also, it some times gives you free wins if they are foolish enough to not protect/build their Overseers at all.
Lastly, how has no one mentioned Cannons? They are the generally agreed upon answer to mid game pushes. Reactively warping in 6 cannons at the front when you see your opponent making a large push out of their base is absolutely key. I personally think air attack and shields are the way to go with air armies considering you will be primarily defending with cannons, pylons, and Stasis Wards against counter attacks in the late game. The shield upgrade not only works on units, it gives armor to buildings too. (aka cannons)
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On August 20 2016 05:30 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:My build order start with only 1~2 zealot/adept (unless zerg goes realy ling heavy and I might just die if I wasted oracle energy on drones). It goes gate, (gas gas) core, stargate, nexus, fast (perhaps the fastest) oracle, Fleet bacon, first carrier +1 catapult, 3rd nexus and 2nd stargate just as 1st carrier starts or finish. You won't have enough mineral for zealots if you are fighting with carriers. (the new patch really helps if it comes through) Show nested quote +
Mass carriers is weak vs mass hydras or zerg air. I need ground units to tank hydras, and zealots fits well. Thus, there need to be a balance in supply between carriers and ground army: If I have small ground army it dies quickly and my carriers have no cover, if carriers are too few i dont have enought dps.
Depends on the zerg opening you can hold your 3rd with 2~3 carriers and some adepts (if the terrain is favorable). Hydras of same cost with no speed upgrade will lose to carrier if he decide to chase (if he decides to shoot interceptors you might run out of minerals for adepts and die).
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Whoa man, really nice feedback there.
Your opening is pretty insane!
Your first carriers is pretty fast, I wonder do you ever die from early push, even without being aggressive with oracle? I mean, did first carrier come out in time to defend yourself from big pressure, like roach ravager and stuff like that?
My build is done with some pressure with adepts and oracle just to hide carriers from zerg for enought time, with such fast carrier, zergs know very early you are doing skytoss! Do you start harass with first carriers as soon as it comes out?
Aren't you afraid from fast spire with corruptors? If they scout your first carrier I think they can punish you fast...or did i miss something?
How many stargates do you build in total?
What's ur winrate with this build in pvz?
edit: i did some try with fast carrier, i just get killed by hydras every time. Also when tryng to use first 2 carrier to harass, interceptors get destroyed by spores/queen really fast. Maybe i'm missing something. Tryed also vs terran, after I pushed back hist first pressure, he come with 7-8 vikings when i had 3 carriers and killed them. lol
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EPT
