Yeah I don't mean deadweight as in Archons are useless units but I mean at the time you get them. Zealot/Archon is more of a smash mouth army rather than a defensive/poking one where you are macroing behind it, that's why I initially thought you were trying to hit a timing. If you could bait the zerg into going muta for example I could easily see the purpose of early-ish Archons which would rip mutas apart in any head-to-head engagement. And even just a few phoenixes back at home would essentially mean the zerg would lose any base race eventually. A timing around when you are both expanding seems like it could work for example.

This is just my thoughts I haven't actually played around with this yet, but if a timing is there this would in effect also be a way to avoid (or at least not be forced to) having to build these "safety" phoenixes and can utilize those resources for example better harassing units. I think Void Rays are interesting in that it can be used to get some harassment done, deny bases, is a roach deterrent, and can bait zerg into mutas or hydras for your composition to rip apart.

dipwood

United States7 Posts

December 25 2015 02:33 GMT

#42

Can someone look at my replay and tell me what I'm doing wrong? http://lotv.spawningtool.com/7083/

AusProbe

Australia235 Posts

December 27 2015 01:12 GMT

#43

Your robo is very late, meaning that you only have like 1 immortal and no observers when he hits. After building the third nexus rush twilight and robo. Even still, If you had chronoboost on your robo you would have been better off as well. Which is why I don't really like late double forge in PvZ. With just one forge, you chrono robo/twilight/forge. Double forge is still good of course, but you need a strong immortal count to brute force your way through these timings.

(XIL)Ruin

1 Post

January 02 2016 10:46 GMT

#44

I'm sorry but is there anything you'd recommend in the open to make be safe against early aggression I know it's not as common as it was in HoTS but I have fallen. Victim to quite a few speedling rushes with these opens.

AusProbe

Australia235 Posts

January 02 2016 11:00 GMT

#45

If you want to be very safe, Gate Gas Nexus is want you want to be doing. It is the about as slow as any protoss expand is now days, so it is quite safe.

On maps with an inbase natural, you should not have any problem if you scout it, react by chronoing a zealots/adept/sentry(later), and keeping your wall up. On normal maps, the response is exactly the same, except you have to micro a bit better, and use photon overcharge well. Try and get a couple of pylons up in your natural mineral line and you save the nexus.

Look out for ling drops a tiny bit later by having a pylon ready next to your nexi, with mcore sorta between everything.

Weltall

Italy83 Posts

January 03 2016 15:41 GMT

#46

How u defend with this build from a ling ravager all in off 2 base at 5:00 min? Even if you don't build a 3rd nexus, you have no units to defend such attack (pylons just get killed fast)

DanceSC

United States751 Posts

January 03 2016 18:33 GMT

#47

On January 04 2016 00:41 Weltall wrote:
How u defend with this build from a ling ravager all in off 2 base at 5:00 min? Even if you don't build a 3rd nexus, you have no units to defend such attack (pylons just get killed fast)

Stargate oracle, use the oracles to snipe the ravagers.You can get 2 oracles with this build, by the time the attack hits at roughly 4:30 you should have 1 oracle out and 1 on the way

Beelzebub1

1004 Posts

January 03 2016 18:52 GMT

#48

What are you Protoss players finding deals with this handily?

Because I'm a bit lost on dealing with it, I like to go 3 base macro games vs Protoss but I guess I'm too shitty to make it work, should I be attacking with Ravagers when I see the Robotics?

Sweetness.751

United States225 Posts

January 03 2016 22:40 GMT

#49

On January 04 2016 03:52 Beelzebub1 wrote:
What are you Protoss players finding deals with this handily?

Because I'm a bit lost on dealing with it, I like to go 3 base macro games vs Protoss but I guess I'm too shitty to make it work, should I be attacking with Ravagers when I see the Robotics?

Lurkers prove troublesome as always. However there is no hard counter to this unit comp, except maybe a surprise Broodlord transition.

b_unnies

3579 Posts

January 04 2016 04:07 GMT

#50

One thing that I have trouble with is that I'm not really sure when to get the 1st stargate

Payson

United States394 Posts

January 04 2016 05:58 GMT

#51

On January 04 2016 13:07 b_unnies wrote:
One thing that I have trouble with is that I'm not really sure when to get the 1st stargate

I feel it is very situational, but I prefer to get my Stargate before gates two and three just in case of early aggression from Zergs. I've been dealing with a lot going for a 4:30/5:00ish ravager timing with roaches and having the phoenixes lift the ravagers while your gateway units and pylons handle the roaches and lings. A 3:00/3:15ish Stargate is pretty reasonable with the gas you'll have after the first adept, Stalker, and MsC.

I good player to watch who generally uses the Gate Gas Nexus opening into 3 Gate Stargate into his third would be State. He goes with this opener 9 out of 10 times on ladder with moderate success while getting his third up. He does go for his Stargate earlier, around 27/28 supply before his extra gates. I believe an early game SG allows you to scout the map quickly and deny overlord scouts so I have been preferring it over earlier gateways 2 & 3.

AusProbe

Australia235 Posts

January 05 2016 02:17 GMT

#52

On January 04 2016 13:07 b_unnies wrote:
One thing that I have trouble with is that I'm not really sure when to get the 1st stargate

It doesn't really matter in my opinion. Getting it before the gates is really good, and I would lean towards doing that against 3 hatch. Getting it after the gates in my opinion is still good, and I think the best option against 2 base speed, because you often need to wall off. Normally I usually get them sort of around the same time. This timing works on maps where you have to wall your natural, like ruins, ulrena etc.

This is a strong macro style, so it isn't like it loses to one thing. Strong zerg play will do well against it, But of course, good ways to do better, is tech to hive quicker. If you stay on lair and don't hit a timing that kills me, you will usually lose the game. I don't think being aggressive with lurkers is good, unless it is a massive roach hydra lurker timing, but defensive lurkers are really strong and allow you to tech to hive. Ultra Queen Viper (if you can control it, it is hard) in my opinion is extremely strong and one of the things I struggle the most with.

If it is off 2 bases, don't take a third and just add gates. I can usually hold those pushes with just 3 gates, but having 6 gates makes it very easy. Just build adepts, sentries, stalkers and lift up the ravagers with phoenix. Add extra pylons at your wall so they don't get unpowered.

Stallion

New Zealand67 Posts

January 05 2016 19:23 GMT

#53

this is amazing

Nholan

1 Post

January 19 2016 15:54 GMT

#54

What made things alot easier for me is, if im scouting roach/ravager/hydra/lurker adding 2 more robos and a robotics bay. Its easy to squize one round disruptor without lowering the immortal count to much. Those 3 disruptor always did wonder for me and the 3 robo's give an insane good immortal count. I've stolen this from Lilbow on his showmatch vs tlo.
Of course you have to be sure to have room for adding them.

Jarlaxle1

4 Posts

February 10 2016 09:34 GMT

#55

I really need an alternative build to this one. My PvZ is really bad.
This build is good but I always suck when I cant do damages with the 5 phoenixes because he has good spore/overlord positioning and when he goes for ling pressure where phoenixes are useless...
When I cant do damage I always fall behind because I dont know how to stop the zerg to full his bases and mass army.

AusProbe

Australia235 Posts

February 10 2016 09:47 GMT

#56

Have any replays? Might be able to help. With the 5 phoenix you should always be able to get damage done, but you don't really need to deal any damage with them. Ling pressure is a bit different to deal with on this patch, but having 2 more adepts before taking the third usually deals with it effectively.

Most games versus zerg, protoss "falls behind", but if we take one good fight with smart positioning and tactics we even it out.

Jarlaxle1

4 Posts

February 10 2016 10:19 GMT

#57

Thx for the answer. With ling pressure I mean pressure at natural (not at the third) in maps with the wide ramp. I always loose the nexus and I think that this means I'am dead also if zerg was 12pool.

When I will be at home I will check if I have some replays.

Gunjam

18 Posts

February 12 2016 13:35 GMT

#58

Hey Probe, thanks for the awesome guide.

I am at platinum now and trying to make this build work. I was never really good with phoenix and the extra apm required, but this build, and the matchup forces me to improve.

I do seem to get swarmed quite a bit, and I am having trouble making the immortals consistently.

However my question was if you could please upload some more replays, or refresh the old ones as all of the replays in your original post are not possible to download from spawningtool.

Thanks

MCThiaz

9 Posts

February 13 2016 00:18 GMT

#59

Thank you for this post Probe, it really improved my PvZ :D Keep it up \o/

AusProbe

Australia235 Posts

February 13 2016 00:38 GMT

#60

Okay I will update the replays sometime over the next day or two. Been doing different opening builds so I don't have the best replays at the moment because I am still learning them, but after wcs anz this weekend I will get some.

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