Introduction[Top] Seeing all the protoss players on twitter, reddit, here struggling and complaining about PvZ was making me really sad. I can see and understand why protoss were struggling, but personally I had been having a great time in the matchup. Therefore I thought I would write a guide on my style.
For people that don't know me, my ID is Probe and I am an Australian Protoss player for Ecko Esports. I was just at dreamhack and choked a few times. I am a GM Protoss and PvZ has always been my best matchup. Before you criticise the build, please try it out! I hope you will be plesantly surprised. Since I started doing this style, it has changed a lot. So if anyone does it slightly differently and thinks it is better please write it below. I am always looking to improve it.
The basic goal of this build is to use a chargelot immortal based army off a phoenix opener to secure 4 bases safely. Opening phoenix might be considered old fashion, but because of the strength of mutalisk switches, especially against zealots and immortals, phoenix stop zerg from building them, meaning you can focus on just dealing with ground.
The 8 damage charge buff is huge, and ever since it was added I have been doing this general sort of build to great success. People may doubt me when I say that chargelot immortal can deal with lurkers, but with a bit of splitting and focus fire with the immortals, lurkers melt. Skipping disruptors also means that the zergs ultralisk transistion is weaker, as you already have the immortals ready.
Early Game Build Order[Top] The goal of the early game is to safely get phoenix off 2 bases, before taking a third around 4:30. At this point a robo and twilight is added to move into the midgame. I have included 3 opening builds. First opening is Gate Nexus, which is safe against everything. However, nexus first is almost 100% safe as well so I have included the standard nexus first into 2 gate adept, and nexus first into gate forge(my personal favourite at the moment).
Stargate (5 phoenix) @3:40 Forge (if not added already) @4:00 Double Gas (3:30 for gate forge opener) Warp in for total of 2 adepts 2 sentries Move down to take nexus and add twilight and robo immediately
Mid Game Build Order[Top] At this point in the game, you third base should be finishing, twilight and robo both on the way.
Get Charge and +2 attack 2 immortals -> observer -> constant immortal production Start to add a pylon wall at your third base for overcharge against timings Go up to 7 gates quickly Stop at 16 probes on the third, don't take gas there. Warp in Zealots and immortals constantly. Feel free to add adepts and their ugprade after charge. Add Templer archives for archons and a 4th base This is a really quick 4th base, and the reason for this is because your main will start to mine out really quickly and you need a strong economy to overwhelm your opponent. Go up to 12-16 Gateways and add gases at third and fourth. Add second robo/bay and stargates depending on what you see. Against lair tech zerg -> disruptors. Against hive tech zerg -> immortals/safety stargates
Reactions[Top] Dealing with Roach Ravager: Immortals obviously do well against roaches, and chargelots will be able to trade against this army composistion if they don't get kited forever. You might have to be a bit defensive behind pylon walls until you get 4-5 immortals, but once you reach that point chargelot immortal archon handles this composistion easily. If you are still struggling adding some adepts can provide the tankiness that your army needs to get the critical mass of chargelot immortal.
Dealing with Ling Hydra: This can hit before you get enough chargelots to deal with it effectively. Therefore, I build 10 adepts and then going into chargelots. Adepts obviously do really well against ling hydra, so with this small deviation you should be able be aggressive on the map.
Dealing with Roach Ravager Hydra: This is similiar to dealing with roach ravager, but if they clump up into a ball, your chargelots are going to melt. Defensively this should not be a problem as with good forcefields and pylon positioning you can defend fine. However, once they are maxed, you will not be able to kill them and they will take the map away from you. In this situation I add a second robo and robo bay for disruptors. After 4 disruptors I go back into Immortals and you are fine.
Dealing with Ling Ravager Muta: This style showcased by solar is extremely good. They try to distract you and then fly in with mutalisk to win the game. However, this style works a lot better against stalker/disruptors than this. Chargelot immortal obviously destroys ling ravager if you decide to attack, and you have phoenix and a stargate ready to deal with the mutalisk. Stay on top of your scouting and if you suspect this, feel free to build some more phoenix and add some stalkers into your main army. Some signs that this is coming is obviously a spire, but also a lack of hive means that you need to extra careful and defensive. Being defensive against no hive is fine, as your army will end up being stronger than the zergs.
Dealing with Lurkers: Chargelots and immortals do surprisingly well against lurkers. Continue with your build but you have to be very careful with your army movement. DO NOT engage into lurkers that are being defensive. You will simply die. However, if they are in the middle of the map, make an arc, attack move your composistion and then focus fire them down with immortals. Once you break the lurker line once, you have full control of the map and can continue to expand and tech up to double robo/triple stargate. As a general rule, if they are being very defensive with mass lurker and teching to hive, or are staying on lair tech, you need to add disruptors. Including warp prism drops in the main also works wonders as you have the more mobile comp that can deny bases forever.
Dealing with Mutalisk in general: You already have 5 phoenix that deter that zerg from building mutalisk, but they might still do it. Stay on top of your scouting with hallucinations and once you scout it, add stargates, phoenix and a fleet beacon for phoenix range. Pylon Overcharge can secure one base, so have your phoenix defending 2 bases, mcore defending one, and your main army defending the front.
Dealing with Baneling composistions: Banelings obviously hard counter zealots and adepts. But, they suck against archon immortal. Do not commit to an engagement. Use warp prisms and recall to deny bases without taking a fight as you slowly add archons and more immortals into your army. When you do decide to fight, a bit of splitting goes a long way!
Dealing with Upgraded Lings -> Infestor Ultralisk: I believe this is one of the stronger unit composistions from Zerg. Infestors can fungal your zealots and make you extremely sad as ultralisk cleave their way to victory. You have to be extremely careful against this unit comp, and when you want to fight, make sure you are split so that all your zealots don't get fungaled and die. Adding a second robo for more immortals whilst adding archons will make your lategame army as good as his, and with good focus fire with immortals, you should be fine.
Dealing with Broodlords Simply put, have safety stargates so that when you scout them, you can begin immediate tempest production. Try and delay as long as you can by counter attacking. Your army is more mobile and you can use this to deny bases and just recall away when he gets there. Immortal Archon Tempest can then effectively deal with Broodlord/ultralisk comps.
Transitions: Your lategame ideal army is Immortal Archon. This will completely destroy any zerg ground force. Have 3-5 stargates and fleet beacon ready incase they muta switch or Broodlord switch. Counter attack with warp prisms and trade off your zealots trying to deny bases as you add more immortals, archons and expansions. In the super lategame against broodlord viper corruptor, add storm so the corruptors don't dominate your tempest.
Early Game Defense: The key to defending early game attacks is firstly scouting. With your initial scout see if zerg has a third base and taken gas. If they have no third base, hide your probe out on the map to check the third base around 3 minutes. If they don't have a third at this time, they are doing a 2 base build and you need to react. You can also sac the adepts if you have no information in order to see what is coming.
I often build a stalker in order to push back any droplords that might be around, as well as to deny scouting. If it is a frontal attack, add pylons at your natural and just build gateway units off 3 gates. If you need a void ray build one. Oracles also kill ravagers really quickly so they can also be built. Any later drops you will have phoenix that can deny them.
Phoenix use: Your first 2 phoenix are used to kill the overlords around your base, as well as on the map. When you get your third phoenix, move across the map and scout what the zerg is doing, as well as kill a few drones or queens if you are lucky. Once you have 5 phoenix, you can pretty much always get drone kills off the gas if you have enough apm to multitask this. If you can get no damage anymore, or you would rather focus on your main army, pull them back to your base to deny any drops and to defend muta switches.
Pylon walls: If you struggle to hold your third base, ask yourself this question. Did I build enough pylons? If the answer is no, build more pylons. If the answer is yes, make sure you are getting 7 gates very quickly. I often forget to get the gateways and slowly die to a sustained push, even if I have enough pylons. 3 gateways is not enough for this build, you need 7+. As for pylon placement, try to spread them out to cover all attack points into your base. Also don't bunch them together as ravagers deal even better with them and they will block your chargelots.
Chargelot micro: Pretty simple micro, but against ranged units you need to control click your zealots and pull them back if they get too far away from the immortals.
Forming an Arc:This is the MOST IMPORTANT part of this build when dealing with lurkers and other AOE units. Just remember, before you engage, pull your units into 3-4 groups and then a move behind the units. Against lurkers, continue to split as you go forward to lessen the damage.
Description This series shows the strength of this style against one of the best lotv players. I couldn't seal the deal in the series because he is better than me, not because of the build. Only the replay for Game 2 is there, but the whole series was casted as well. Replay http://www.twitch.tv/wardiii/v/27765439?t=4h32m00s http://lotv.spawningtool.com/4361/
This is awesome. Muta switches are ruining my existence so I've been chargelot immortal all-inning every game and hoping I don't run into the same zerg again. Also, phoenix builds are always a great way to work on multitasking. Cheers from a fellow aussie!
This has been wrecking me even with lurkers. I'm thinking i need to turtle on 4 bases behind spines and lurkers, moving out being my mistake, and rush brood/viper maybne with a couple infestors.
On December 11 2015 12:27 cactus555 wrote: How did you do with it vs nerchio guru and other european zergs?
It won against nerchio, guru it went back and forth, close game against TLO that came down to a baserace where he had the gold island, went positive versus reynor.
On December 11 2015 12:38 Cyro wrote: Man you got me all excited with the title
safely get phoenix off 2 bases, before taking a third around 4:30
Well to get safely to chargelot immortal I feel you need phoenix for scouting and muta deterrence! But after phoenix it is chargelot immortal all the way.
I have been testing quick 3 base into this comp, without the stargate. It works as well, but once you get your third saturated you need to add safety 2 stargates.
Well to get safely to chargelot immortal I feel you need phoenix for scouting and muta deterrence! But after phoenix it is chargelot immortal all the way.
I have been testing quick 3 base into this comp, without the stargate. It works as well, but once you get your third saturated you need to add safety 2 stargates.
I know how you feel, just tired of that same 5 minute opening already
Yo! lately got problems versus 12 gas-pool, etc... I playing Nexus to 2 gate adepts, so i scout after nexus. i hold sometime but zerg still can macro up behind it. Gate-Forge should do the work ? Can you explain your reactions to this speedling attacks of super early pool?
Wow, that style would really suit me I think. I wasn't aware that you could do ok vs lurkers with chargelot immortals. I'm going to try that, thanks !!!
Is there some reason you don't utilize storm/feedback? Seems like such a waste as they would be so cost and supply efficient to defend bases and counter to vipers/infestors. Storm also helps a ton in maintaining the control of the air.
Also if you are just going to insta morph Archons why not a Dark Shrine first to utilize for map control and morph into Archons when you actually need them.
On December 13 2015 09:00 Skyro wrote: Is there some reason you don't utilize storm/feedback? Seems like such a waste as they would be so cost and supply efficient to defend bases and counter to vipers/infestors. Storm also helps a ton in maintaining the control of the air.
Also if you are just going to insta morph Archons why not a Dark Shrine first to utilize for map control and morph into Archons when you actually need them.
Against pure group zerg comps, I feel storm does not add a lot. Don't get me wrong, it is a very strong spell and sometimes I do get it, but because it mainly hits your zealots, and if you really needed aoe disruptors are better, in my opinion there isn't any point in the midgame to early lategame. Storm however is necessary against corruptor viper broodlord. I shall add that into the guide.
Feedback is really good, but maybe I tunnel vision a bit. I seem to be able to make it work without keeping ht around. Of course, feedbacking infestors is a game winner, so if you want to include them, just don't morph 2 ht.
The reason for Templar archives over dark shrine is that you will be floating gas. Therefore you can be more efficient in your spending, and have more money for cannons at your 4th/5th bases. Templar archives also build a lot quicker so it helps with timings. Opening phoenix already means that the zerg will have spores so your dark templar will do less damage in the midgame. However, they are a vital tool lategame and should be used.
On December 13 2015 22:15 ihantmitoo wrote: carefull with standard roach hydra infestor vyper builds , you will might need an transition for colossus/disrupt if its come
Vipers wreck Colossus and Disruptors... you have to have High Templars.
On December 14 2015 03:02 TedBurtle wrote: random question....you play on CORE hotkeys? or just lefty?
Yes I use the core. Older version of it that I have changed.
On December 13 2015 17:53 cactus555 wrote: plz some replays vs broodlords+infestors+vipers, always dying at that stage of the game
I don't have many replays, will try and get more. It is very hard to find stuff from super lategame because it usually doesn't get there. However tempest/skytoss army should do fine against that stuff. A skytoss ht army shouldn't lose in a straight up fight, so you just have to focus on expanding and denying their bases.
On December 13 2015 22:15 ihantmitoo wrote: carefull with standard roach hydra infestor vyper builds , you will might need an transition for colossus/disrupt if its come
Vipers wreck Colossus and Disruptors... you have to have High Templars.
Against roach hydra infestor viper they do reach a point where you need aoe to deal with it. Colo imo should not be built, but disruptors are the better answer over high templar. Yes they can be abducted, but they build quickly and are cheap, and having double robo for future immortal production is more worthwhile. You only need one disruptor hit to break them down enough and then chargelot immortal archon rolls over the rest.
If I open gate gas nexus, is the scout even needed? (Isn't this safe vs everything early game?) Also, if i DO choose to scout, and see a three hatchery before pool play, how should I respond?
Also, is there some particular reason as to why 5 phoenix?
On December 13 2015 22:15 ihantmitoo wrote: carefull with standard roach hydra infestor vyper builds , you will might need an transition for colossus/disrupt if its come
Vipers wreck Colossus and Disruptors... you have to have High Templars.
Disruptors are better in my opinion. Really quick to pump out, pretty cheap for how much dmg they can dish. HT seem like a good idea because your ganna have alot of gas,but i have tried it and i normally just end up storming my own zealots. Or maybe i just need to storm further behind zerg for when they kite :/
On December 14 2015 08:40 AkashSky wrote: If I open gate gas nexus, is the scout even needed? (Isn't this safe vs everything early game?) Also, if i DO choose to scout, and see a three hatchery before pool play, how should I respond?
Also, is there some particular reason as to why 5 phoenix?
It is safe versus everything, but knowing what is coming really helps. For example, seeing a 12 pool drone pull before it gets to your base makes life a lot easier. My response to 3 hatch doesn't really change. You can't punish it, so just feel happy that you are not going to be allin'ed and any drop play will come after you have phoenix out. If you want to change it up a bit, you can get a quicker stargate against 3 hatch as they can't punish it.
As for why we build 5 phoenix, it is just the number we settled upon over the years. 3 phoenix kills a queen in two lifts, 4 just barely kills a queen in one lift, and 5 it easily kills a queen. That, plus more energy for drone kills I guess is the reason why.
Probe, weird question...but please, can you post 1-2 new replays, so we can watch them without leaving bnet. I love to tune, and adjust my timings by rewatching, but now i need to leave bnet ;/
On December 17 2015 15:46 TedBurtle wrote: Probe, weird question...but please, can you post 1-2 new replays, so we can watch them without leaving bnet. I love to tune, and adjust my timings by rewatching, but now i need to leave bnet ;/
herO vs Life (GSL preseason finals) game 1&2 were great execution of this style. I will review VODs and take some notes. I hope these games stimulate the discussion
Updated the replay section with the VOD of herO doing it in GSL. Lots of Protoss have started doing this style, so over the next months it should probably evolve even more which is cool.
herO built more phoenix than I would, and in one game he got storm really quickly. The phoenix increase I sort of like, but I don't think storm is going to be used in the standard macro style. Rather just something used sometimes for strong timings.
On December 21 2015 08:05 mGGrinehart wrote: Updated the replay section with the VOD of herO doing it in GSL. Lots of Protoss have started doing this style, so over the next months it should probably evolve even more which is cool.
herO built more phoenix than I would, and in one game he got storm really quickly. The phoenix increase I sort of like, but I don't think storm is going to be used in the standard macro style. Rather just something used sometimes for strong timings.
PS: Inb4 people start calling me a copycat haha
I don't think that at all. Sooner or later, this build was going to be discovered by a pro, regardless of who was using it first.
I just used it on ladder and it worked really well. Definitely going to be my go-to since they nerfed the almighty Zealot Dance Party PvZ build.
Edit: How do you deal with the immediate pool from the zerg? Your wall/zealot won't be complete and it really messes with the timings.
If you are opening gate gas nexus you should be fine after scouting it. If you open nexus first, if you wall your ramp you probably will just die to a 12 pool. If you build your first pylon and gate next to your main nexus you just chrono the zealot and have good probe micro to delay etc. Yes it does mess with your timings, but it puts them behind if you hold it well.
On December 21 2015 16:50 mGGrinehart wrote: If you are opening gate gas nexus you should be fine after scouting it. If you open nexus first, if you wall your ramp you probably will just die to a 12 pool. If you build your first pylon and gate next to your main nexus you just chrono the zealot and have good probe micro to delay etc. Yes it does mess with your timings, but it puts them behind if you hold it well.
nice point. i should start not walling with nexus first
On December 13 2015 09:00 Skyro wrote: Is there some reason you don't utilize storm/feedback? Seems like such a waste as they would be so cost and supply efficient to defend bases and counter to vipers/infestors. Storm also helps a ton in maintaining the control of the air.
Also if you are just going to insta morph Archons why not a Dark Shrine first to utilize for map control and morph into Archons when you actually need them.
Against pure group zerg comps, I feel storm does not add a lot. Don't get me wrong, it is a very strong spell and sometimes I do get it, but because it mainly hits your zealots, and if you really needed aoe disruptors are better, in my opinion there isn't any point in the midgame to early lategame. Storm however is necessary against corruptor viper broodlord. I shall add that into the guide.
Feedback is really good, but maybe I tunnel vision a bit. I seem to be able to make it work without keeping ht around. Of course, feedbacking infestors is a game winner, so if you want to include them, just don't morph 2 ht.
The reason for Templar archives over dark shrine is that you will be floating gas. Therefore you can be more efficient in your spending, and have more money for cannons at your 4th/5th bases. Templar archives also build a lot quicker so it helps with timings. Opening phoenix already means that the zerg will have spores so your dark templar will do less damage in the midgame. However, they are a vital tool lategame and should be used.
At first when I read this post I thought the idea was to try to goad your opponent into going air, and then hitting a timing where you have a perfect composition to steamroll them. But then going over some of your replays it just seems you don't do that and just go into macro. So what I mean is that yeah storm is pretty terrible vs. mass roach for instance but storm/ht/archons are fantastic vs. zerg air and anti-air like hydras and infestors. I can understand the logic in terms of your resource bank, but it just seems like a huge waste to burn all that gas on archons and to me seem like deadweight for big portions of the game.
Have you tried incorporating something like Void Rays? As tech switches are so often the reason protoss can die in this matchup I think trying to force the issue and make zerg go air can pay huge dividends.
On December 13 2015 09:00 Skyro wrote: Is there some reason you don't utilize storm/feedback? Seems like such a waste as they would be so cost and supply efficient to defend bases and counter to vipers/infestors. Storm also helps a ton in maintaining the control of the air.
Also if you are just going to insta morph Archons why not a Dark Shrine first to utilize for map control and morph into Archons when you actually need them.
Against pure group zerg comps, I feel storm does not add a lot. Don't get me wrong, it is a very strong spell and sometimes I do get it, but because it mainly hits your zealots, and if you really needed aoe disruptors are better, in my opinion there isn't any point in the midgame to early lategame. Storm however is necessary against corruptor viper broodlord. I shall add that into the guide.
Feedback is really good, but maybe I tunnel vision a bit. I seem to be able to make it work without keeping ht around. Of course, feedbacking infestors is a game winner, so if you want to include them, just don't morph 2 ht.
The reason for Templar archives over dark shrine is that you will be floating gas. Therefore you can be more efficient in your spending, and have more money for cannons at your 4th/5th bases. Templar archives also build a lot quicker so it helps with timings. Opening phoenix already means that the zerg will have spores so your dark templar will do less damage in the midgame. However, they are a vital tool lategame and should be used.
At first when I read this post I thought the idea was to try to goad your opponent into going air, and then hitting a timing where you have a perfect composition to steamroll them. But then going over some of your replays it just seems you don't do that and just go into macro. So what I mean is that yeah storm is pretty terrible vs. mass roach for instance but storm/ht/archons are fantastic vs. zerg air and anti-air like hydras and infestors. I can understand the logic in terms of your resource bank, but it just seems like a huge waste to burn all that gas on archons and to me seem like deadweight for big portions of the game.
Have you tried incorporating something like Void Rays? As tech switches are so often the reason protoss can die in this matchup I think trying to force the issue and make zerg go air can pay huge dividends.
But archons are not dead weight. They tank so much, deal so much, and spread your units out when dealing with ultralisk. Stylistically I could be so much more aggressive, which would make the investment into archons better I think. But I play a really slow game that just comes down to starving my opponent through base denial, recalls and drops. Archons are still good in this situation. Yes, storm is good against hydra and infestor. But it doesn't fully kill roach hydra like disruptors do(also disruptors still work well when fungaled). Storm isn't very good against zerg air really. Broods have too much hp, muta regen, vipers don't do much to this style. Corruptors, yes, get wrecked, and that is why lategame I think storm is definitely needed.
Bit funny when you thought I wanted the zerg player to go air. In fact I really hope he doesn't haha, God I hate playing against mutalisk styles haha. But yes, this is a macro build, which you can hit strong timings with though.
I don't think incorporating void rays forces the zerg to go air at all (although once again, I really don't like playing against zerg air). The basic idea of opening phoenix is to get one step ahead of the zerg in terms of tech switches. For example, if you open robo, scout muta, you are forced to build double stargate. Then he just tech switches again, and you get this game that spirals out of control easily. Chargelot immortal can deal with every ground composition, so the phoenix STOP air play.
In terms of opening void ray. I have been doing 2 stargate, 4 void ray after oracle, before going into charge. It seems to work quite well (dealing with mutalisk is one of the biggest problems imo, but on kr I have 200ms, so it makes it hard anyway). When you really get your archon void ray immortal chargelot army up and running, I think it is the strongest non skytoss max. I have to test it more though.
Yeah I don't mean deadweight as in Archons are useless units but I mean at the time you get them. Zealot/Archon is more of a smash mouth army rather than a defensive/poking one where you are macroing behind it, that's why I initially thought you were trying to hit a timing. If you could bait the zerg into going muta for example I could easily see the purpose of early-ish Archons which would rip mutas apart in any head-to-head engagement. And even just a few phoenixes back at home would essentially mean the zerg would lose any base race eventually. A timing around when you are both expanding seems like it could work for example.
This is just my thoughts I haven't actually played around with this yet, but if a timing is there this would in effect also be a way to avoid (or at least not be forced to) having to build these "safety" phoenixes and can utilize those resources for example better harassing units. I think Void Rays are interesting in that it can be used to get some harassment done, deny bases, is a roach deterrent, and can bait zerg into mutas or hydras for your composition to rip apart.
Your robo is very late, meaning that you only have like 1 immortal and no observers when he hits. After building the third nexus rush twilight and robo. Even still, If you had chronoboost on your robo you would have been better off as well. Which is why I don't really like late double forge in PvZ. With just one forge, you chrono robo/twilight/forge. Double forge is still good of course, but you need a strong immortal count to brute force your way through these timings.
I'm sorry but is there anything you'd recommend in the open to make be safe against early aggression I know it's not as common as it was in HoTS but I have fallen. Victim to quite a few speedling rushes with these opens.
If you want to be very safe, Gate Gas Nexus is want you want to be doing. It is the about as slow as any protoss expand is now days, so it is quite safe.
On maps with an inbase natural, you should not have any problem if you scout it, react by chronoing a zealots/adept/sentry(later), and keeping your wall up. On normal maps, the response is exactly the same, except you have to micro a bit better, and use photon overcharge well. Try and get a couple of pylons up in your natural mineral line and you save the nexus.
Look out for ling drops a tiny bit later by having a pylon ready next to your nexi, with mcore sorta between everything.
How u defend with this build from a ling ravager all in off 2 base at 5:00 min? Even if you don't build a 3rd nexus, you have no units to defend such attack (pylons just get killed fast)
On January 04 2016 00:41 Weltall wrote: How u defend with this build from a ling ravager all in off 2 base at 5:00 min? Even if you don't build a 3rd nexus, you have no units to defend such attack (pylons just get killed fast)
Stargate oracle, use the oracles to snipe the ravagers.You can get 2 oracles with this build, by the time the attack hits at roughly 4:30 you should have 1 oracle out and 1 on the way
What are you Protoss players finding deals with this handily?
Because I'm a bit lost on dealing with it, I like to go 3 base macro games vs Protoss but I guess I'm too shitty to make it work, should I be attacking with Ravagers when I see the Robotics?
On January 04 2016 03:52 Beelzebub1 wrote: What are you Protoss players finding deals with this handily?
Because I'm a bit lost on dealing with it, I like to go 3 base macro games vs Protoss but I guess I'm too shitty to make it work, should I be attacking with Ravagers when I see the Robotics?
Lurkers prove troublesome as always. However there is no hard counter to this unit comp, except maybe a surprise Broodlord transition.
On January 04 2016 13:07 b_unnies wrote: One thing that I have trouble with is that I'm not really sure when to get the 1st stargate
I feel it is very situational, but I prefer to get my Stargate before gates two and three just in case of early aggression from Zergs. I've been dealing with a lot going for a 4:30/5:00ish ravager timing with roaches and having the phoenixes lift the ravagers while your gateway units and pylons handle the roaches and lings. A 3:00/3:15ish Stargate is pretty reasonable with the gas you'll have after the first adept, Stalker, and MsC.
I good player to watch who generally uses the Gate Gas Nexus opening into 3 Gate Stargate into his third would be State. He goes with this opener 9 out of 10 times on ladder with moderate success while getting his third up. He does go for his Stargate earlier, around 27/28 supply before his extra gates. I believe an early game SG allows you to scout the map quickly and deny overlord scouts so I have been preferring it over earlier gateways 2 & 3.
On January 04 2016 13:07 b_unnies wrote: One thing that I have trouble with is that I'm not really sure when to get the 1st stargate
It doesn't really matter in my opinion. Getting it before the gates is really good, and I would lean towards doing that against 3 hatch. Getting it after the gates in my opinion is still good, and I think the best option against 2 base speed, because you often need to wall off. Normally I usually get them sort of around the same time. This timing works on maps where you have to wall your natural, like ruins, ulrena etc.
On January 04 2016 03:52 Beelzebub1 wrote: What are you Protoss players finding deals with this handily?
Because I'm a bit lost on dealing with it, I like to go 3 base macro games vs Protoss but I guess I'm too shitty to make it work, should I be attacking with Ravagers when I see the Robotics?
This is a strong macro style, so it isn't like it loses to one thing. Strong zerg play will do well against it, But of course, good ways to do better, is tech to hive quicker. If you stay on lair and don't hit a timing that kills me, you will usually lose the game. I don't think being aggressive with lurkers is good, unless it is a massive roach hydra lurker timing, but defensive lurkers are really strong and allow you to tech to hive. Ultra Queen Viper (if you can control it, it is hard) in my opinion is extremely strong and one of the things I struggle the most with.
On January 04 2016 00:41 Weltall wrote: How u defend with this build from a ling ravager all in off 2 base at 5:00 min? Even if you don't build a 3rd nexus, you have no units to defend such attack (pylons just get killed fast)
If it is off 2 bases, don't take a third and just add gates. I can usually hold those pushes with just 3 gates, but having 6 gates makes it very easy. Just build adepts, sentries, stalkers and lift up the ravagers with phoenix. Add extra pylons at your wall so they don't get unpowered.
What made things alot easier for me is, if im scouting roach/ravager/hydra/lurker adding 2 more robos and a robotics bay. Its easy to squize one round disruptor without lowering the immortal count to much. Those 3 disruptor always did wonder for me and the 3 robo's give an insane good immortal count. I've stolen this from Lilbow on his showmatch vs tlo. Of course you have to be sure to have room for adding them.
I really need an alternative build to this one. My PvZ is really bad. This build is good but I always suck when I cant do damages with the 5 phoenixes because he has good spore/overlord positioning and when he goes for ling pressure where phoenixes are useless... When I cant do damage I always fall behind because I dont know how to stop the zerg to full his bases and mass army.
Have any replays? Might be able to help. With the 5 phoenix you should always be able to get damage done, but you don't really need to deal any damage with them. Ling pressure is a bit different to deal with on this patch, but having 2 more adepts before taking the third usually deals with it effectively.
Most games versus zerg, protoss "falls behind", but if we take one good fight with smart positioning and tactics we even it out.
Thx for the answer. With ling pressure I mean pressure at natural (not at the third) in maps with the wide ramp. I always loose the nexus and I think that this means I'am dead also if zerg was 12pool.
When I will be at home I will check if I have some replays.
I am at platinum now and trying to make this build work. I was never really good with phoenix and the extra apm required, but this build, and the matchup forces me to improve.
I do seem to get swarmed quite a bit, and I am having trouble making the immortals consistently.
However my question was if you could please upload some more replays, or refresh the old ones as all of the replays in your original post are not possible to download from spawningtool.
Okay I will update the replays sometime over the next day or two. Been doing different opening builds so I don't have the best replays at the moment because I am still learning them, but after wcs anz this weekend I will get some.
I've been doing the gate, gas, nexus opening all the time as it just seems solid early-game, and at my level (plat) the little extra economy gained by going earlier nexus seems unimportant.
Edit: Good luck with the WCS Challenger, I will be watching!
Hey! Nice guide, I have been trying to follow it, however, I still seem to have difficulties against lurker based compositions.
In these three replays, I felt like I lost in a similar fashion every time. I seem to start well but when it comes to the actual fight vs the zerg composition I just straight up trade costinefficently and it goes downhill from there.
Could anyone take a look at these replays and give me some tips?
Zergs have been adapting to Phoenix openers with a pretty nasty Hydra/Lurker timing on your 3rd. You may want update your guide to include this. I think you pretty much have to rush Disruptors to hold this, especially on particular maps.
Also that Gate Forge opener is interesting. What are the pros/cons and why is it your favorite?
Anyone still using this/being able to defend Lurker/Hydra? Charge doesn't seem adequate. Phoenix doesn't seem strong enough to be able to buy time enough to get Disruptors reactively.
On February 29 2016 14:51 Supah wrote: Anyone still using this/being able to defend Lurker/Hydra? Charge doesn't seem adequate. Phoenix doesn't seem strong enough to be able to buy time enough to get Disruptors reactively.
Style is solid and working. Just add 8-10 adept harass on ~5 minute mark, to delay roach-hydra push
On February 29 2016 14:51 Supah wrote: Anyone still using this/being able to defend Lurker/Hydra? Charge doesn't seem adequate. Phoenix doesn't seem strong enough to be able to buy time enough to get Disruptors reactively.
Style is solid and working. Just add 8-10 adept harass on ~5 minute mark, to delay roach-hydra push
Mmm.. I mean Lurker/Hydra not Hydra/Roach. Is Adept harass really the answer to buying time for Disruptors?
I can't speak specifically for this exact opening, but playing a similar style @ archon GM eu
getting an oracle REALLY helps against lurker. Revelation is easy to hit and gives you detection and vision for 43 seconds, it's up almost all of the time even without any energy banked but you can bank a little bit to chain it
Immortals are very good and worth building even against hydralisks. That's not a particularly intuitive thing but they don't immediately die, they fight light units better than stalkers do and they can turn a fight into just fighting hydralisks faster than most other units can
It's tricky to hold the third or fourth base sometimes in PvZ but that's just life at the moment. With phoenix opener at least you can see every unit that the zerg builds as they build it and you'll have plenty of warning that you're going to die horribly
On February 29 2016 14:51 Supah wrote: Anyone still using this/being able to defend Lurker/Hydra? Charge doesn't seem adequate. Phoenix doesn't seem strong enough to be able to buy time enough to get Disruptors reactively.
Style is solid and working. Just add 8-10 adept harass on ~5 minute mark, to delay roach-hydra push
Mmm.. I mean Lurker/Hydra not Hydra/Roach. Is Adept harass really the answer to buying time for Disruptors?
Yeh, messed words .. But this hydra-lurker pushes, can be countered with adept pressure early...not hard counter, but it help you get 2 imortals out, get info that this will be lurkers, and you can get oracle out...and with highlighted lurkers just a click splited army, and lift few lurkers
On March 25 2016 10:14 NinjaToss wrote: since the Pylon Overcharge in nerfed, is it okay if I delay the Natural to after my core?
There is no point. You can hold your natural fine against 2 base or more zerg play even with mcore nerf. Holding it against 1 base plays, having a slightly earlier mcore won't help, and then well maybe you shouldn't take your natural if you scout it haha. Delaying your third base for some adept pressure/ a few more gateway units is fine though.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XCPt0fU.png)
