On October 12 2016 02:44 Probe1 wrote: In ZvT, how should I be responding to multi-pronged harassment in the mid game after the 2-1-1 timing?
As I expand outwards the harassment gets worse. Splitting my army better and improving my creep spread outside of my third/fourth is the obvious answer. But my opponents do a good job at clearing creep, queens, overlords, and anything else that is past my 3rd/4th then rushing in while pushing a different location.
So the core of my question is how do I predict how much army I should split and how can I take an advantage with a spread out opponent? It really has me running in circles trying to figure out where his main push is, and whether it's a diversion or not. If I overcommit to defending these multi drops in any one place they can go around or focus on their main push and knock me out.
Check if they have a third. You can do drops forever off 2 base - If they're just chilling on 2 bases stop droning. Just keep a handful of ling bane at the main, and the rest of your army the middle of your other bases.
If you're talking about 3+ base from the terran, you should already be on ultra tech and a-moving them. If they're dropping instead of defending, you just rally your reinforcements to a safe base and defend that.
I'm afraid not, no.
I'm talking about 6-8 minutes in. Directly after the 2-1-1 drop. They have a third, and instead of the central push follow up they just drop from multiple places at once.
When I get dropped like this, usually I do like to get enough lings to clear a drop on 2 separate groups and a third pack to backstab every time. Basically, whenever the Terran starts dropping me (i.e I see two medivacs going for one of my bases) I shift click a runby into their mineral lines, bring my queens and a pack of lings to the base most likely to be dropped and go back to looking at the minimap to look for a second drop.
On October 14 2016 18:40 IcemanAsi wrote: How do you defend the 13g 12p speed into bane all in while going hatch first gas pool?
Didn't find a convincing guide so I just started doing it on unranked, so far I'm at 4300 Eu and no one held it without significant damage
I know it is not exactly what you are asking for but here I hold a 13/12 with a 12 pool
I don't have a video for the other scenario yet. However, when going hatch gas pool I usually try to maximize Queen production, get 1 spine and just spam lings. I don't go for a fast bane nest.
On October 14 2016 18:40 IcemanAsi wrote: How do you defend the 13g 12p speed into bane all in while going hatch first gas pool?
Didn't find a convincing guide so I just started doing it on unranked, so far I'm at 4300 Eu and no one held it without significant damage
.... However, when going hatch gas pool I usually try to maximize Queen production, get 1 spine and just spam lings. I don't go for a fast bane nest.
Yeah, this and taking fights in chokes, making the early speed less damaging, then very good splits against the inital banes seems to be best defense ( still seems to be a case where the aggressor has the advantage to lose ), bane nest first is bad, your banes won't be up in time to stop mine and I can get super greedy off the initial attack.
On October 14 2016 18:40 IcemanAsi wrote: How do you defend the 13g 12p speed into bane all in while going hatch first gas pool?
Didn't find a convincing guide so I just started doing it on unranked, so far I'm at 4300 Eu and no one held it without significant damage
.... However, when going hatch gas pool I usually try to maximize Queen production, get 1 spine and just spam lings. I don't go for a fast bane nest.
Yeah, this and taking fights in chokes, making the early speed less damaging, then very good splits against the inital banes seems to be best defense ( still seems to be a case where the aggressor has the advantage to lose ), bane nest first is bad, your banes won't be up in time to stop mine and I can get super greedy off the initial attack.
If you can block the ramp with 2 queens and 1 spine you usually win. The hard part is to get there. Remember, if you end up less than 2-3 drones behind you will have a strong defenders advantage with the Queens and the additional hatch. It's all about stopping him from killing your Queens.
My ZvZ has improved a bit and I can win a bit over 50% of the games right now ASSUMING the enemy doesn't cheese. The problem isn't him cheesing - I drone scout and react accordingly and can manage to hold the cheese. It's just, I can't seem to get the perfect balance of how much to spend to hold the cheese and by the time I do hold, he macros up much faster. When holding early pools, what am I supposed to be doing? I usually drop a baneling nest on the first 50 gas and add 1 spine crawler. I don't know when it's safe to take the natural or how to macro even after holding his early aggression. Any tips? I'm in Diamond if that makes any difference.
Also, another question regarding ZvP. I've been going Ravager Ling Bane but it doesn't seem very effective against an archon immortal zealot/adept army. The archons don't die.
On October 17 2016 21:40 Quietus1 wrote: Also, another question regarding ZvP. I've been going Ravager Ling Bane but it doesn't seem very effective against an archon immortal zealot/adept army. The archons don't die.
I though so too. Then I saw Dark vs Dear map 1 during WESG qualifiers :
Anyone got a good build for the test map? I usually just open mutalisks (take 3rd when my spire is building, 1 or 2 creep queens then, both bases saturated) and kill unprepared cyclone spammers, but if it's bio or a competent mech opening, I fall behind very much so. Looking for a good build to play vs both bio and mech.
On October 17 2016 21:40 Quietus1 wrote: Also, another question regarding ZvP. I've been going Ravager Ling Bane but it doesn't seem very effective against an archon immortal zealot/adept army. The archons don't die.
More banes, safe lings until most banes exploded to clean up the rest should fix the problem.
On October 19 2016 02:05 Ej_ wrote: Anyone got a good build for the test map? I usually just open mutalisks (take 3rd when my spire is building, 1 or 2 creep queens then, both bases saturated) and kill unprepared cyclone spammers, but if it's bio or a competent mech opening, I fall behind very much so. Looking for a good build to play vs both bio and mech.
I just go 3 Roach into Muta. Not sure what exactly you are looking for.
On October 17 2016 21:00 Quietus1 wrote: My ZvZ has improved a bit and I can win a bit over 50% of the games right now ASSUMING the enemy doesn't cheese. The problem isn't him cheesing - I drone scout and react accordingly and can manage to hold the cheese. It's just, I can't seem to get the perfect balance of how much to spend to hold the cheese and by the time I do hold, he macros up much faster. When holding early pools, what am I supposed to be doing? I usually drop a baneling nest on the first 50 gas and add 1 spine crawler. I don't know when it's safe to take the natural or how to macro even after holding his early aggression. Any tips? I'm in Diamond if that makes any difference.
In ZvZ if you make a lot of units in the defense you simply use them to pressure. Focus on droning behind the pressure and NOT losing the pressure (ie if you dont have roach speed, better make sure he doesnt either, or have a ton of speedlings).
Once you have 4 banes you should be pretty safe to almost all pressure for a long time until a possible 2 base roach/ling all-in. Simply scout for a third or gas/lair/evo timing to make sure that's not happening. Don't drone up a third until you see them lair/third, don't add more than half saturation until you see them droning. Provide replays for more help.
How do you deal with multi pronged drops in ZvT with Roach Ravager?
Spores help buy a lot of time and zone out drops, but personally I never go roach/ravager in ZvT but instead go ling/bane/queen. IMO better in every way than roach/ravager.
On October 22 2016 10:41 Quietus1 wrote: How do you deal with multi pronged drops in ZvT with Roach Ravager?
The goal is to minimize losses while preparing for one huge attack before your opponent reaches a critical amount of Tanks / Bio / Liberators. You need to be able to defend while macroing up your army and killing the opponent before his army is big enough to defend your attack.
The easiest way to do that is to just put 4 Roaches 1 Ravager in each mineral line, add a spore to each mineral line and then have the bulk of your army patrolling around in case of a double drop or anything nasty.
I personally opt for corruptors to take down medivacs while trying to hit a +1/+1 roach ravager timing. If you are curious what that looks like:
If you have any further question don't hesistate to ask.
Whats the best pool first build in ZvP? I'm really sick of cannon rushers every other game and dealing with it, even when I SEE it coming, is frustrating.
That said, I played a few 14 pool builds and am able to deny cannon rush and force a later nex... how far behind am I? I feel like I have a much better shot winning a macro game than protoss at my level, its just the cheese that I lose to because I scout like a noob.
14 pool/14 gas? or 14 pool no gas? 17 pool, 17 hatch? what is safe and either doesn't put me behind or puts pressure on the fast expand P?
On October 26 2016 10:42 SkylineSC wrote: Whats the best pool first build in ZvP? I'm really sick of cannon rushers every other game and dealing with it, even when I SEE it coming, is frustrating.
That said, I played a few 14 pool builds and am able to deny cannon rush and force a later nex... how far behind am I? I feel like I have a much better shot winning a macro game than protoss at my level, its just the cheese that I lose to because I scout like a noob.
14 pool/14 gas? or 14 pool no gas? 17 pool, 17 hatch? what is safe and either doesn't put me behind or puts pressure on the fast expand P?
Pool first actually doesn't help you that much against a cannon rush, you still need to do the first response with drones, Unless you are going for pool first into no expand which means you are super committed to aggression you probably can't pull off because protoss has a forge up ( no duh ), you're gonna need to bite the bullet and learn to hold cannon rushes with drones. Here are a few tips:
- Until you get real good at holding this, send your second OV over your nat. to ensure scouting it. - when you see it starts your first priority is to send two-three drones with shift-hold position to the problematic positions, where protoss can enclose a cannon, never touch those again. - second priority is to send the drones to defend, two directed at the probe, four for each additional cannon. If you see two probes, immediately send all but three-four drones - third priority is making a pool, pulling off gas, and making a queen - then micro your workers as best you can against the probes and remember to macro
Every time you lose to this don't get angry, make note of where he enclosed his cannons and remember those as the locations you want to send the first priority drones to hold.
yeasteday i faced the Msss oracle into Carrier with mass canons build. He opend with double stargate and forge, I repsondet with masss queens Infestor, bbut i could attack with it and then hen attacked me and his Ht just feedbacked evything, counter attack wasnt really an option becasue evrythwere were around ~caonons, maybe a roach Hydra timing? and how much bases should i drone up before going into mass units ? around 74 workers or should i jsut go up to 90 EDIT: I am looking at the replay now and find many basic mistakes, early supply blocks, so its more of a gernal question i am sure neeb does something similair with anb adept opening(cause he is neeb^^)
on cannon rushes, always remember that the more protoss commits to pylons and cannons the more severely he is delaying tech, which makes lingdrops and nydus a very powerful answer.
also if its only one pylon and 1-2 cannon make sure he takes his natural expansion after cannon rushing because you can do a cannon rush in lotv where you're already building the gateway to rush into a followup one base DT or adept allin
On October 26 2016 17:20 DERASTAT wrote: yeasteday i faced the Msss oracle into Carrier with mass canons build. He opend with double stargate and forge, I repsondet with masss queens Infestor, bbut i could attack with it and then hen attacked me and his Ht just feedbacked evything, counter attack wasnt really an option becasue evrythwere were around ~caonons, maybe a roach Hydra timing? and how much bases should i drone up before going into mass units ? around 74 workers or should i jsut go up to 90 EDIT: I am looking at the replay now and find many basic mistakes, early supply blocks, so its more of a gernal question i am sure neeb does something similair with anb adept opening(cause he is neeb^^)
Oracles and Carriers both have the same Weakness: Corruptors.
I would suggest against using Hydralisks vs Oracle heavy styles. From my experience they just get melted. Although, a key fungal can turn everything around . Using Infestor Queen and adding some corruptors should work well. I suggest you also get Ling upgrades to pressure his bases and spend your minerals.
In terms of drones, I usually drone 3-4 bases. Anything above 70 should be fine in the mid game.
EPT
. Using Infestor Queen and adding some corruptors should work well. I suggest you also get Ling upgrades to pressure his bases and spend your minerals.
