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On January 14 2016 01:17 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Im a Protoss player. Can you zerg players explain to me what counters Lurkers? As far as I can tell nothing does. Certainly no ground units, unless you want to try and get lucky with firing random disruptor balls. Do we have to go into air-toss?
I've never had this much trouble vs one unit before...
Lurkers are generally part of a Lurker-Hydralisk-Roach composition. The ideal Protoss army against would be Carrier-Void Ray, but that is unrealistic. The best thing as of now is upgraded Zealots with heavy Immortal, Archon, and occasionally Disruptor support.
Make sure to fight the Zerg army in as open and area as you can. Engaging with a wide arc is best.
Also, some replays of your experience s would be nice.
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On January 14 2016 01:56 GGzerG wrote:
GM / Top master level Zerg, any other Zergs suffering from Mass reaper in ZvT?
I play Terran, and have employed these strategies against Masters/GM Zergs on KR ladder before.
First, you must confirm ASAP that it is a mass Reaper strategy with your Overlord. If you do see 3 Barracks with 2 Refineries, it is 3-Barracks Reaper.
Secondly, you must keep mining gas even after you spent 100 of it on Zergling speed. Cut drones immediately, and spend the minerals on extra Queens (both Hatcheries) and as many Zerglings as you can spare. Don't send the Zerglings against the Reapers at all until speed is done. Then, once it is, try to get a complete surround on the Reapers to kill them.
Now, if you aren't confident your Zerglings can kill the Reapers, that's where the gas comes in: build a Roach Warren(you may need to delay a Queen/ling's) and try your best to stall with Queens and conserve larvae until you can build Roaches. Then, build ~4 Roaches at once. Don't send these Roaches off creep: they are there to stall until you can get a critical mass of either Zerglings(good for future Baneling busts) or more Roaches.
Either way, holding this attack means the Terran is pretty much disabled for a long time, since his tech is very much delayed.
EDIT: the second strategy is an alternative to the first
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I'm struggling heavily against terran. I cant get past the early game because I feel like I have too many pressures and all-ins I have to prepare for. They have hellion, liberator, mass reaper, marine/mine drops and i can't simultaneously get ready to hold each one of those. How are you other zergs defending against a race that has so many pressure options?
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On January 14 2016 03:50 TentativePanda wrote:
I'm struggling heavily against terran. I cant get past the early game because I feel like I have too many pressures and all-ins I have to prepare for. They have hellion, liberator, mass reaper, marine/mine drops and i can't simultaneously get ready to hold each one of those. How are you other zergs defending against a race that has so many pressure options?
Scouting, mostly. Sac an overlord.
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On January 14 2016 03:50 TentativePanda wrote:
I'm struggling heavily against terran. I cant get past the early game because I feel like I have too many pressures and all-ins I have to prepare for. They have hellion, liberator, mass reaper, marine/mine drops and i can't simultaneously get ready to hold each one of those. How are you other zergs defending against a race that has so many pressure options?
Gotta scout that Starport w/ techlab and that armory, generally if I see any hellions being built after the initial group and a big clump of marines to shoot the overlord down, it's probably a hellbat play.
My beef is with Liberators in the end game, once the Liberator count get's to 10+ with tanks and bio on the ground I am literally clueless on how to properly engage without taking terrible losses, I've probably thrown my last 5 late game ZvT matches where I had a lead, sat on it, let him build his Liberator fleet and then I simply cannot contest the army as it snipes my outlying bases.
Still wondering how a unit that owns Zerg air units and Zerg ground units in both of it's modes is escaping the nerf bat, especially with the new Ghost ability that disintegrates your tier 3 units instantly.
Not happy with ZvT whatsoever, as this guy said, they gave Terran even more ways of ending the game early, Liberator ground mode should be unlocked at Fusion Core not available right off the bat, cannot stand it.
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On January 14 2016 05:22 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 03:50 TentativePanda wrote:
I'm struggling heavily against terran. I cant get past the early game because I feel like I have too many pressures and all-ins I have to prepare for. They have hellion, liberator, mass reaper, marine/mine drops and i can't simultaneously get ready to hold each one of those. How are you other zergs defending against a race that has so many pressure options? Gotta scout that Starport w/ techlab and that armory, generally if I see any hellions being built after the initial group and a big clump of marines to shoot the overlord down, it's probably a hellbat play. My beef is with Liberators in the end game, once the Liberator count get's to 10+ with tanks and bio on the ground I am literally clueless on how to properly engage without taking terrible losses, I've probably thrown my last 5 late game ZvT matches where I had a lead, sat on it, let him build his Liberator fleet and then I simply cannot contest the army as it snipes my outlying bases. Still wondering how a unit that owns Zerg air units and Zerg ground units in both of it's modes is escaping the nerf bat, especially with the new Ghost ability that disintegrates your tier 3 units instantly. Not happy with ZvT whatsoever, as this guy said, they gave Terran even more ways of ending the game early, Liberator ground mode should be unlocked at Fusion Core not available right off the bat, cannot stand it.
the viper has a new spell that's called parasitic bomb. it's pretty good against liberators.
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On January 14 2016 05:31 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 05:22 Beelzebub1 wrote:On January 14 2016 03:50 TentativePanda wrote:
I'm struggling heavily against terran. I cant get past the early game because I feel like I have too many pressures and all-ins I have to prepare for. They have hellion, liberator, mass reaper, marine/mine drops and i can't simultaneously get ready to hold each one of those. How are you other zergs defending against a race that has so many pressure options? Gotta scout that Starport w/ techlab and that armory, generally if I see any hellions being built after the initial group and a big clump of marines to shoot the overlord down, it's probably a hellbat play. My beef is with Liberators in the end game, once the Liberator count get's to 10+ with tanks and bio on the ground I am literally clueless on how to properly engage without taking terrible losses, I've probably thrown my last 5 late game ZvT matches where I had a lead, sat on it, let him build his Liberator fleet and then I simply cannot contest the army as it snipes my outlying bases. Still wondering how a unit that owns Zerg air units and Zerg ground units in both of it's modes is escaping the nerf bat, especially with the new Ghost ability that disintegrates your tier 3 units instantly. Not happy with ZvT whatsoever, as this guy said, they gave Terran even more ways of ending the game early, Liberator ground mode should be unlocked at Fusion Core not available right off the bat, cannot stand it. the viper has a new spell that's called parasitic bomb. it's pretty good against liberators.
I'm probably just not teching to them early enough, I'm bad, but Roach/Ravager leaves you on the backfoot vs drops and ling/bling styles aren't as strong with the larvae nerf so I'm a bit frustrated.
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On January 14 2016 06:38 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 05:31 Charoisaur wrote:On January 14 2016 05:22 Beelzebub1 wrote:On January 14 2016 03:50 TentativePanda wrote:
I'm struggling heavily against terran. I cant get past the early game because I feel like I have too many pressures and all-ins I have to prepare for. They have hellion, liberator, mass reaper, marine/mine drops and i can't simultaneously get ready to hold each one of those. How are you other zergs defending against a race that has so many pressure options? Gotta scout that Starport w/ techlab and that armory, generally if I see any hellions being built after the initial group and a big clump of marines to shoot the overlord down, it's probably a hellbat play. My beef is with Liberators in the end game, once the Liberator count get's to 10+ with tanks and bio on the ground I am literally clueless on how to properly engage without taking terrible losses, I've probably thrown my last 5 late game ZvT matches where I had a lead, sat on it, let him build his Liberator fleet and then I simply cannot contest the army as it snipes my outlying bases. Still wondering how a unit that owns Zerg air units and Zerg ground units in both of it's modes is escaping the nerf bat, especially with the new Ghost ability that disintegrates your tier 3 units instantly. Not happy with ZvT whatsoever, as this guy said, they gave Terran even more ways of ending the game early, Liberator ground mode should be unlocked at Fusion Core not available right off the bat, cannot stand it. the viper has a new spell that's called parasitic bomb. it's pretty good against liberators. I'm probably just not teching to them early enough, I'm bad, but Roach/Ravager leaves you on the backfoot vs drops and ling/bling styles aren't as strong with the larvae nerf so I'm a bit frustrated.
Macro hatches, extra queens so inject timings aren't super crucial and it hurts if you miss one then.
Also very important thing I learned is different in LOTV is that losing units as Zerg is very bad. You have to save as many units as you can. Even if it is only 20 zerglings. Never waste units. Especially versus crucial terran timings push they are very important 
TL;DR
- Macro hatch
- Extra queens more inject
- Don't lose units you can somehow save
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On January 14 2016 01:17 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Im a Protoss player. Can you zerg players explain to me what counters Lurkers? As far as I can tell nothing does. Certainly no ground units, unless you want to try and get lucky with firing random disruptor balls. Do we have to go into air-toss?
I've never had this much trouble vs one unit before...
They have no hard counter. They just lose when you have a bigger army because they will have nothing protecting them. If you can lure the Zerg out of position it's good as well. Always keep an eye on a large militarized zone around all your bases, what you definitely do not want to have happen is for 8 lurkers to just walk up close to your base and burrow.
Also lurkers are insanely time and cost intensive. There is 100% a huge hole right in the Zerg defense when he starts making lurkers. You have to abuse that. Turtling 3 base doesn't work anymore - if you don't harass, you're doing it wrong.
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On January 14 2016 11:24 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 01:17 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Im a Protoss player. Can you zerg players explain to me what counters Lurkers? As far as I can tell nothing does. Certainly no ground units, unless you want to try and get lucky with firing random disruptor balls. Do we have to go into air-toss?
I've never had this much trouble vs one unit before... They have no hard counter. They just lose when you have a bigger army because they will have nothing protecting them. If you can lure the Zerg out of position it's good as well. Always keep an eye on a large militarized zone around all your bases, what you definitely do not want to have happen is for 8 lurkers to just walk up close to your base and burrow. Also lurkers are insanely time and cost intensive. There is 100% a huge hole right in the Zerg defense when he starts making lurkers. You have to abuse that. Turtling 3 base doesn't work anymore - if you don't harass, you're doing it wrong.
Thanks for the tips. I'll try it...
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Gotta scout that Starport w/ techlab and that armory, generally if I see any hellions being built after the initial group and a big clump of marines to shoot the overlord down, it's probably a hellbat play.
My beef is with Liberators in the end game, once the Liberator count get's to 10+ with tanks and bio on the ground I am literally clueless on how to properly engage without taking terrible losses, I've probably thrown my last 5 late game ZvT matches where I had a lead, sat on it, let him build his Liberator fleet and then I simply cannot contest the army as it snipes my outlying bases.
Still wondering how a unit that owns Zerg air units and Zerg ground units in both of it's modes is escaping the nerf bat, especially with the new Ghost ability that disintegrates your tier 3 units instantly.
Not happy with ZvT whatsoever, as this guy said, they gave Terran even more ways of ending the game early, Liberator ground mode should be unlocked at Fusion Core not available right off the bat, cannot stand it.
As Charoisaur said, Parasitic Bomb works wonders against Liberators. You should have 3-4 vipers by the time he has that many Liberators. I play standard LBM and hardly ever lose if reaching late game against bio+tank+liberator. I´m only top diamond though. Again, Parasitic Bomb them.
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On January 14 2016 12:26 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 11:24 heishe wrote:On January 14 2016 01:17 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Im a Protoss player. Can you zerg players explain to me what counters Lurkers? As far as I can tell nothing does. Certainly no ground units, unless you want to try and get lucky with firing random disruptor balls. Do we have to go into air-toss?
I've never had this much trouble vs one unit before... They have no hard counter. They just lose when you have a bigger army because they will have nothing protecting them. If you can lure the Zerg out of position it's good as well. Always keep an eye on a large militarized zone around all your bases, what you definitely do not want to have happen is for 8 lurkers to just walk up close to your base and burrow. Also lurkers are insanely time and cost intensive. There is 100% a huge hole right in the Zerg defense when he starts making lurkers. You have to abuse that. Turtling 3 base doesn't work anymore - if you don't harass, you're doing it wrong. Thanks for the tips. I'll try it...
As a zerg I can say what works against me when I go lurkers.
The basics are obviously position and harass, lurkers are the zerg mech, you want to try snipe lurkers when they move and maneuver around the zerg army. Warp prism harass does wonders and really taxes the zerg multi tasking because as they said before lurkers require constant babysitting.
If I could sail off into theorycrafting, I never get why protoss who open phoenix don't go into Tempest as they seem to be the hardest counter, able to snipe to lurkers safely from a distance. Is it because they lose to hard to muta? seems like 3-4 Tempest with observer support could seriously punish any zerg going for lurkers. If the zerg tries to rush into them, you get the lurkers unburrowed. Probably missing an eco reason here, but seems like betst counter.
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On January 14 2016 11:24 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 01:17 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Im a Protoss player. Can you zerg players explain to me what counters Lurkers? As far as I can tell nothing does. Certainly no ground units, unless you want to try and get lucky with firing random disruptor balls. Do we have to go into air-toss?
I've never had this much trouble vs one unit before... They have no hard counter. They just lose when you have a bigger army because they will have nothing protecting them. If you can lure the Zerg out of position it's good as well. Always keep an eye on a large militarized zone around all your bases, what you definitely do not want to have happen is for 8 lurkers to just walk up close to your base and burrow. Also lurkers are insanely time and cost intensive. There is 100% a huge hole right in the Zerg defense when he starts making lurkers. You have to abuse that. Turtling 3 base doesn't work anymore - if you don't harass, you're doing it wrong.
Any air unit counters lurkers, since they don't shoot up.
Disruptors counter lurkers as they have an extremely long range shot, which can take down lurkers.
If you are swift you could also lift the lurkers with phoenixes before you move in,
Spreading out and standing in a concave instead of a line against lurkers is a pretty decent counter too.
But overall, having a big army really really helps against lurkers, if you can quickly overwhelm them.
Other than that it's a lot of positioning.
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So, my Mainproblem right now is ZvZ, especially the late game. At one point, all my games end up in a position where neither of the two players can really attack into the other. In general it goes like that:
-> Some ling/bling action into a standard game, into Ultralisks on both sides.
-> As soon as Ultralisks are out, commiting to an attack kind of seems suicidal (especially because there'll most likely be some Lurkers in the background as well) to me and all both players do is sending cracklings around the map, trying to destroy all kinds of structures and keep the opponent busy.
-> Both players build millions of Spinecrawlers everywhere and you can attack even less, because the defenders advantage is too big. At this point, either I just wait forever and nothing's ever gonna happen, or I attack and - if the opponent doesn't fuck up his position - I lose the fight and therefore the game.
I already thought about Broodlords, but the opponent just builds a few Corrupters and they're basically useless + I give him an opportunity to attack me, because Broodlords are slow.
I'm just totally clueless in this matchup, as soon as it reaches a point where both defensive positions are fortified.
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So, my Mainproblem right now is ZvZ, especially the late game. At one point, all my games end up in a position where neither of the two players can really attack into the other. In general it goes like that:
-> Some ling/bling action into a standard game, into Ultralisks on both sides.
-> As soon as Ultralisks are out, commiting to an attack kind of seems suicidal (especially because there'll most likely be some Lurkers in the background as well) to me and all both players do is sending cracklings around the map, trying to destroy all kinds of structures and keep the opponent busy.
-> Both players build millions of Spinecrawlers everywhere and you can attack even less, because the defenders advantage is too big. At this point, either I just wait forever and nothing's ever gonna happen, or I attack and - if the opponent doesn't fuck up his position - I lose the fight and therefore the game.
I already thought about Broodlords, but the opponent just builds a few Corrupters and they're basically useless + I give him an opportunity to attack me, because Broodlords are slow.
I'm just totally clueless in this matchup, as soon as it reaches a point where both defensive positions are fortified.
I'm only diamond, but I'll share the way I approach the match as I have good results. I open with speedling agression into macro and defense . I always go mutalisks and double upgrade melee/carapace.
- If facing roach/hydra , I push with 2-2 LBM while dropping lings in 2 different locations. It works wonders in diamond-low masters. I often end the game there or at least cripple his economy significantly to end it later with cracklings and ultras.
- If facing mutaliks, I stay defensive and rush to vipers. At my level, mutalisk players upgrade ground forces really slowly (in order to have more gas for mutas) or don't even upgrade them at all, so the goal is to draw out of position his mutalisks to cripple his economy with your upgraded lings.
I hope it helps despite the league I play this style in. Forgive my English.
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What is the proper response to 2base blink stalkers?
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On January 14 2016 03:50 TentativePanda wrote:
I'm struggling heavily against terran. I cant get past the early game because I feel like I have too many pressures and all-ins I have to prepare for. They have hellion, liberator, mass reaper, marine/mine drops and i can't simultaneously get ready to hold each one of those. How are you other zergs defending against a race that has so many pressure options?
I had the same problems and I figured out you must have some timings in mind.
- Send overlord in opponent's base at 3:00 if possible
- Place one overlord between your and the terran's base to see what's coming (I use the 3rd one)
- At ~4:20 spores against liberators and against banshee pushs
- I also like to do a roach warren + 2nd gas at 3:15. Build 4 roaches against standard hellion harass and more against all kind of pushes
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On January 15 2016 21:58 Maxie wrote:
What is the proper response to 2base blink stalkers?
roach/ravager/ling is very strong versus 2 base blink stalker all ins.
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On January 16 2016 03:59 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 21:58 Maxie wrote:
What is the proper response to 2base blink stalkers? roach/ravager/ling is very strong versus 2 base blink stalker all ins.
Yeah I figure a well balanced composition is the way to go, I think I was too ling heavy and ravager heavy respectively the two times i lost to it.
Also, I've been having some issues vs marine hellbat timing lately, I guess it's just not possible to skip roaches when dealing with it? I tried (4-5) queens/a spine/banelings but since every fight ended with me having nothing left it made it hard to hold follow up attacks.
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On January 16 2016 03:59 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 21:58 Maxie wrote:
What is the proper response to 2base blink stalkers? roach/ravager/ling is very strong versus 2 base blink stalker all ins.
Why do you have a different background? It is more white than other people 
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EPT
