EPTWhat other compositions can I use (other then ling bling + air)? Or should I stick to what I like and just try to improve my build/scouting?
How should I respond to marine tank medivac? Abaddon infestor and drop roach Warren? Spines? slow banes?
The LotV Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 17
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
What other compositions can I use (other then ling bling + air)? Or should I stick to what I like and just try to improve my build/scouting? How should I respond to marine tank medivac? Abaddon infestor and drop roach Warren? Spines? slow banes? | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On January 19 2016 17:18 Nazara wrote: What composition can I use in zvt? I hate ravager with passion, so I open with infestor +1 cara lings, but if terrain goes marine heavy, I lose before my investors are out. What other compositions can I use (other then ling bling + air)? Or should I stick to what I like and just try to improve my build/scouting? How should I respond to marine tank medivac? Abaddon infestor and drop roach Warren? Spines? slow banes? Infestors suck until you get Ultralisks out, they just don't fill the roles that the Mutalisk fills which is controlling drops and applying mild counter pressure to force turrets/marines to respond. I been finding success at the high diamond low masters level (so absolute shit in layman's terms) with going really standard ling blind muta but very light on the mutas (just enough to control medivacs and allow me to leave my base) and very very heavy on the upgrades and the lings/blings creep spread. Be a wall, absorb the waves of Terran until you can get to 3/3 Ultralisks, at which point I add Vipers and Corruptors, going for a ling/bling/Ultra/Viper/Corruptor combo that at least feels durable enough to charge into Terran Liberator/tank lines and trade decently well. I can't seem to find a use for Ravagers in ZvT, everyone rants and raves about them but unless you hit a crisp timing I still think Roaches are shit in the match up. "How should I respond to marine tank medivac?" Go old school and just Zerg them, spread lots and lots of creep, 2 - 3 Queens and overwhelm the tank position, lots of lings, micro your banelings accordingly don't just a move or you'll probably lose. | ||
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A_needle_jog
Korea (South)699 Posts
On January 19 2016 15:04 fp_aldrich wrote: Thank you, much appreciated!  From the little I have read, if I understand correctly these ZvP and ZvT builds are good middle-ground ones (balance between economic and aggression, can go either way) but the ZvZ one is more towards aggression? Just want to wrap my head around where it can go from there In ZvT you have to do 17 hatch 17 gas 17 pool or you will lose. When you go 13 gas 12 pool versus terran then the first reaper will kill all your slow zerglings. When you go 2 hatch before pool versus Terran then the first reaper will kill all your drones. Sadly 17/17/17 is only way. Then you can go into Roach Ravager then into Infestor then into Ultralisk or you can do Zergling Baneling into Mutalisk into Ultralisks/Broodlord if he play mech. In ZvZ 13/12 build is aggressive. After opening 13/12 you can decide if you do baneling nest and try all-in to kill opponent or go hatchery intro macro style with roaches or mutalisk I think on your skill level going 13 gas 12 pool then with 100 min 100 gas for speed and after that baneling nest with the next 50 gas and all-in is very effective and should have a very high win rate. It is very hard to defend and needs good micro, but opponent is probably doing the same strategy | ||
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Dr Bjorn
7 Posts
In ZvT you have to do 17 hatch 17 gas 17 pool or you will lose. Theres not really any point to going gas before pool unless you're trying to hit a timing (unlikely with a 17/17/17) or defending against a specific harass (except there is none). You might as well open pool first to be safer against those pesky reapers + better income. | ||
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StarcraftSteve
8 Posts
On January 20 2016 15:05 Dr Bjorn wrote: Theres not really any point to going gas before pool unless you're trying to hit a timing (unlikely with a 17/17/17) or defending against a specific harass (except there is none). You might as well open pool first to be safer against those pesky reapers + better income. I open 17 hatch 18 gas 18 pool and always have lings out before the reaper comes and the faster speed you get can save you from 3 rax reaper builds before it snowballs to hard. Also remember to pull 2-3 drones off gas @100 if your planning on a non all in or rushing tech over economy build. | ||
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fp_aldrich
5 Posts
Thank you very much for all the feedback, really appreciate it Going against Toss, how does that differ from Terran? | ||
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StarcraftSteve
8 Posts
On January 20 2016 16:04 fp_aldrich wrote: Hi All, Thank you very much for all the feedback, really appreciate it Going against Toss, how does that differ from Terran? My feeling on openers for ZvP is pretty map dependent, I go 17 hatch 18 hatch 18 pool 18 gas on bigger maps or 17 hatch 18 pool 18 hatch 19 gas on riskier maps. As far as unit composition goes I tend to do a 3 base +1 ranged roach hydra timing vs stargate openers while taking my third and teching to lurkers and hive usually cripples or kills the Protoss of the are going for a chargelot immortal archon follow up. Still struggling with aggressive adept allins but that's just Protoss now. | ||
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A_needle_jog
Korea (South)699 Posts
On January 20 2016 15:40 StarcraftSteve wrote: I open 17 hatch 18 gas 18 pool and always have lings out before the reaper comes and the faster speed you get can save you from 3 rax reaper builds before it snowballs to hard. Also remember to pull 2-3 drones off gas @100 if your planning on a non all in or rushing tech over economy build. 17 18 18 feel better with larvae management I agree, but if short map then every second counts to defend reaper. It no big deal anyway | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
So I'm not motivated enough to type up a super pro post. but here's two things that might help everyone a lot. It's easy enough to test out yourself and compare it to your standard build. 1) 19 Hatch 18 gas 17 pool is better than 17 hatch 17 gas 17 pool in a lot of situations. All I care about is holding reapers or 13/12s. The pool and ling speed ends up being just several seconds slower with 19h/18g/17p than with 17h/17g/17p. The hatch ends up being dropped with 17 hatch at about 55-57s. If you go 19 hatch it's about 1:01 to 1:03. The few seconds sacrificed for later larva and creep spread from the hatch are well worth the eco boost from having drones out earlier imo, but I might be overlooking something. I haven't tried out anything like 16 hatches or 20 hatches yet. I've messed around with 13ov, 14ov, and extractor tricks as well. I haven't tried out every possible combo yet, but the one that both feels by far the best to me and performs the best on paper is double extractor trick to 16/14. I make the extractors at about 85 minerals, but it probably should be like 95-100 to totally optimize everything. Then 16ov, then drop the hatch at 19 supply. I send the hatch drone when I'm at about 225 minerals and 18 supply. Basically I just send it 50 minerals after my normal 17 hatch timing. You'll float some, but that goes to the 19th drone that is made several seconds before the hatch is dropped. I just tried it again on orbital, dropping my first hatch at the front third first, and I got my pool down at 1m13s. Usually I'm at 88 gas when the pool pops, but I've found that I make the lings, queen, then can click speed. I've noticed in my recs vs humans that I click the speed late anyway because I always go lings, queen, then speed. The one thing it's not better at is if you need the second queen out as it's delayed. It also might not be better than something like a 17 hatch 18 pool 17 gas, but I've always not liked this build as much because the ling speed is never consistent. Hopefully other people can compare this build with their build and figure out what's optimal in all situations. I have a feeling people who open hatch gas pool will like this build better because that's what I've always felt comfortable opening, but I've always wanted a more eco friendly version of it. 2) ZvZ: 14/14 vs 13/12 In one of my recs someone going 14/14 had ling speed started just shortly after my 13/12. I tested it only once, but I found that 14/14 started ling speed at 1:22 and 13/12 started at 1:15. I'm going 14/14 now because you can extractor trick to get out an extra drone while I can't with a 13/12 unless I want to delay my third pair of lings. Plus, you're only sacrificing a bit of time to have the option to throw up a hatch later. You can kill their hatch and throw up your own, but I find this impossible to do with 13/12 as I'd rather keep my foot on the gas. Overall, some of this is intuitive while some is not. I thought catz style 13 ov then drone, then double extractor trick would be best, but whenever I've tried this it ended up being worse than straight 13ov for dropping the hatch and pool and ignoring eco benefits. If you want to try 19 hatch/18 gas/17 pool, you can do it with 13ov or 14ov as they're similar in my tests, but damn, 16ov first always feels way better to me and gets a 1-2s faster time whenever I test it for any hatch/gas/pool timing. P.S. It's way better to pull the drone early so it's in position to drop the hatch or pool asap. I've noticed this the most with my pool timing. A drone's only mining about 2/3 a mineral a second anyway, so you're sacrificing only several minerals to save yourself those precious 1-3 seconds. P.P.S. You can extractor trick carrying minerals and cancel and they still have the minerals! It's one of my favorite things. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
I voted off Prion a good long while ago because it seemed like Terran was just super strong able to take uncontested gold bases but not I'm kind of reconsidering playing on Orbital? Orbital just seems super strong for all kinds of drop/liberator play, I find myself getting frequently wrecked by double pronged drops because the 4th closest to you is ridiculous vulnerable to anything (drops, tanks, Liberators) but the other one is extremely far away and the positions seem to favor the attacker (2 entrances to the expansion are chokes so dropping widow mines allows the Terran to attack and retreat at will). | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 22 2016 05:08 Beelzebub1 wrote: Whats your guy's vetoes atm? I voted off Prion a good long while ago because it seemed like Terran was just super strong able to take uncontested gold bases but not I'm kind of reconsidering playing on Orbital? Orbital just seems super strong for all kinds of drop/liberator play, I find myself getting frequently wrecked by double pronged drops because the 4th closest to you is ridiculous vulnerable to anything (drops, tanks, Liberators) but the other one is extremely far away and the positions seem to favor the attacker (2 entrances to the expansion are chokes so dropping widow mines allows the Terran to attack and retreat at will). I have trouble zvt on Prion as well, although I think that's because I go ling/bane when I should be going roach/ravager on that map (good abusive flying tanks around is sooo strong). I vetoed Ulrina and Central Protocol and that's it. I like the other maps enough . Orbital I don't have trouble with most of the time. I would try flanking if I were you, they are pretty good when they come up that ramp. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On January 22 2016 05:41 blade55555 wrote: I have trouble zvt on Prion as well, although I think that's because I go ling/bane when I should be going roach/ravager on that map (good abusive flying tanks around is sooo strong). I vetoed Ulrina and Central Protocol and that's it. I like the other maps enough . Orbital I don't have trouble with most of the time. I would try flanking if I were you, they are pretty good when they come up that ramp.Hm, very well, probably just playing it wrong, lost a few ZvT's on that map due to various mistakes (such as taking the close 4th base I didn't realize how powerful a set up Terran can be in that position) but I'll keep practicing. | ||
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Maxie
Sweden2653 Posts
Orbital is annoying when you forget the rock... Ulrena and Central protocol are the only ones I have actually vetoed though, played three games on each and that was enough. | ||
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learning88
United States160 Posts
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On January 22 2016 12:16 learning88 wrote: What is everyone's injection method these days? With the ability to inject multiple times in a hatch, I feel the backspace method is so bad. I have Queens walking for miles every game and it gets really frustrating. Go back a few pages there was a discussion on this very topic Page 12 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/499586-the-lotv-zerg-help-me-thread?page=12 | ||
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Destruktor
Spain60 Posts
On January 22 2016 05:08 Beelzebub1 wrote: Whats your guy's vetoes atm? I voted off Prion a good long while ago because it seemed like Terran was just super strong able to take uncontested gold bases but not I'm kind of reconsidering playing on Orbital? Orbital just seems super strong for all kinds of drop/liberator play, I find myself getting frequently wrecked by double pronged drops because the 4th closest to you is ridiculous vulnerable to anything (drops, tanks, Liberators) but the other one is extremely far away and the positions seem to favor the attacker (2 entrances to the expansion are chokes so dropping widow mines allows the Terran to attack and retreat at will). I actually don't veto any map. That's because I want to learn play in all maps. Btw, I have about 70%WR in Prion. I always take gold base before nat and that is a huge advantage. | ||
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Learnbrah
4 Posts
My other problem, also due to speed, is I end up with tonnes of bank. I watch pro games a lot, but I have no idea what they are spending their money on. I usually make a few queens, to get rid of the money (plus creep spread, which should help with my timing/pacing eventually). Is there a good guide on what to do and when, I end up with a few K in mins, even if I get an extra hatch in my main. I;m currently gold, but lose a lot of games lately, as I just switched to using 'The Core' again, could also be why I am a little slow. I used to be diamond in WOL. Thanks for any help I get, also hope this is the appropriate place to post this. | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On January 23 2016 14:00 Learnbrah wrote: Hey all first post, I hope this is the right place. Basically. I;m just super slow atm, whats the best way to improve general speed. I used to be really good at my injects and was only ever slowed down in a battle. But I seemed to have lost all timing (haven;t played since WOL). I'll do something else, go back to my queens and they'll have 60 energy, not 25, I;m that slow. My other problem, also due to speed, is I end up with tonnes of bank. I watch pro games a lot, but I have no idea what they are spending their money on. I usually make a few queens, to get rid of the money (plus creep spread, which should help with my timing/pacing eventually). Is there a good guide on what to do and when, I end up with a few K in mins, even if I get an extra hatch in my main. I;m currently gold, but lose a lot of games lately, as I just switched to using 'The Core' again, could also be why I am a little slow. I used to be diamond in WOL. Thanks for any help I get, also hope this is the appropriate place to post this. Perfect place to post! It sounds like it is just lack of practise. Especially if you have just switched to a new set up (core). Coming back after a long time to what you used to use is a slow recovery; when you add on to that learning a completely new hotkey set up it is going to take substantially longer. My biggest advice would be just to get stuck in and practise as much as possible. A lot of things like injecting and macroing better will come with practise. It sounds like you know what to do - this is a great start - just keep being critical of where you are going wrong and testing whether you are improving. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On January 23 2016 14:00 Learnbrah wrote: Hey all first post, I hope this is the right place. Basically. I;m just super slow atm, whats the best way to improve general speed. I used to be really good at my injects and was only ever slowed down in a battle. But I seemed to have lost all timing (haven;t played since WOL). I'll do something else, go back to my queens and they'll have 60 energy, not 25, I;m that slow. My other problem, also due to speed, is I end up with tonnes of bank. I watch pro games a lot, but I have no idea what they are spending their money on. I usually make a few queens, to get rid of the money (plus creep spread, which should help with my timing/pacing eventually). Is there a good guide on what to do and when, I end up with a few K in mins, even if I get an extra hatch in my main. I;m currently gold, but lose a lot of games lately, as I just switched to using 'The Core' again, could also be why I am a little slow. I used to be diamond in WOL. Thanks for any help I get, also hope this is the appropriate place to post this. You seem to know more or less what to do. Just a few small points: Diamond wol probably corresponds to around gold in lotv. It's harder to get to the high ranks these days, so don't beat yourself up. The bank is related to missing injects, as you don't have larva to spend your money on. The two problems are from the same source. If you float minerals but not gas, you may want to take more gases earlier (or spend you minerals on economy). An inject only gives three larva in lotv, so you will need to get macro hatch (or expand) faster than in low. On the other hand, you can now queue injects. So when you find your queen at 60 energy, you can inject twice. | ||
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Maxie
Sweden2653 Posts
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