EPTThe LotV Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 16
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
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redloser
Korea (South)1738 Posts
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A_needle_jog
Korea (South)699 Posts
On January 16 2016 22:45 redloser wrote: When you're using roach/ravager composition against T, what should be the ratio of roaches to ravagers? That question is very vague. Do you mean when Roach Ravager push? or when defending? I always have atleast 5 ravager so I can kill stuff with corrosive bile even if I use 1-2 ravager. I don't often play Roach Ravager but when I do then I do morph a lot of them because they are better than roaches in my opinion. Most of time I micro back injured roaches and then morph them into ravager. That is super strong to recover health  I actually think ravagers are better for offensive. It is hard to hit corrosive bile. Only good versus Liberator, Buildings or with fungal. Bad versus : - Banshees - Marine - Marauder - Medivac - Viking - Tanks with medivac. I only like ravager when timing push to hit scvs repairing buildings or buildings like bunker. If you have lot of gas then you can morph roach into ravager I think. | ||
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kottbullar
Australia490 Posts
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A_needle_jog
Korea (South)699 Posts
On January 17 2016 13:02 kottbullar wrote: If I know for sure 3 rax reaper's coming on prion terraces, what's the best way to open ? Add extra queens Build Roach warren Build Zerglings until roach warren finish Build Roaches Morph Roaches with low HP into Ravager -> counter push win. or Mass Zerglings and 2 extra queens good micro surround kill all repear add baneling nest -> baneline bust terran and zergling run mainbase win | ||
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TelecoM
United States10682 Posts
On January 17 2016 22:58 A_needle_jog wrote: Add extra queens Build Roach warren Build Zerglings until roach warren finish Build Roaches Morph Roaches with low HP into Ravager -> counter push win. or Mass Zerglings and 2 extra queens good micro surround kill all repear add baneling nest -> baneline bust terran and zergling run mainbase win Your solely basing your builds, strategies and openings on the fact that you HOPE the Terran will make a mistake. Do you realize how easy it is to kite reaper / ravager with a 2-3 Rax Reaper opening? Going Roach / Ravager against 2-3 Rax Reaper is 100% dependent on the Terran making a mistake in order for that to work. Following up with a baneling all in is also hoping for your opponent to make a mistake, it is possible for Terran to wall off with Barracks at the Ramp, not to mention how easy it is for mass reapers to Kite baneling / ling as well... These types of follow ups will work, but are not sound advice to improve and at a higher level. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 18 2016 03:27 GGzerG wrote: Your solely basing your builds, strategies and openings on the fact that you HOPE the Terran will make a mistake. Do you realize how easy it is to kite reaper / ravager with a 2-3 Rax Reaper opening? Going Roach / Ravager against 2-3 Rax Reaper is 100% dependent on the Terran making a mistake in order for that to work. Following up with a baneling all in is also hoping for your opponent to make a mistake, it is possible for Terran to wall off with Barracks at the Ramp, not to mention how easy it is for mass reapers to Kite baneling / ling as well... These types of follow ups will work, but are not sound advice to improve and at a higher level. Wait what? Going roach/ravager is the best way to defend against reapers. When I scout 2-3 rax reaper, immediately upon completion of my pool I throw down a roach warren. The next couple of overlords I make go into areas where the Reapers can go. For example on Prion Terraces I will have an overlord in the area by the spot where they can jump into the main, then I have another overlord down the ramp area by the natural. I leave a few roaches at the main spot, keep the rest by the natural ramp. They can not go up the ramp without getting hit by a roach/ravager. If you micro the grenades won't matter. As reapers cannot shoot air, you will always know where they are trying to go with the reapers so you can reinforce areas as needed. Then you can take a third pretty easily once the Terran starts making his expansion (which you should be watching with one of the first 2 overlords of the game). From there you can go into any sort of macro game you want, although you want to know his follow up as some Terrans will do a 2 base non stim bio push after reapers hoping to catch you droning hard after the reaper harass has been fended off. | ||
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A_needle_jog
Korea (South)699 Posts
On January 18 2016 03:27 GGzerG wrote: Your solely basing your builds, strategies and openings on the fact that you HOPE the Terran will make a mistake. Do you realize how easy it is to kite reaper / ravager with a 2-3 Rax Reaper opening? Going Roach / Ravager against 2-3 Rax Reaper is 100% dependent on the Terran making a mistake in order for that to work. Following up with a baneling all in is also hoping for your opponent to make a mistake, it is possible for Terran to wall off with Barracks at the Ramp, not to mention how easy it is for mass reapers to Kite baneling / ling as well... These types of follow ups will work, but are not sound advice to improve and at a higher level. It is also possible to only use the units for defence and then build drones and hatchery and make macro game. In my honest opinion I think that it is wise to have different ways of playing instead of always going long macro games. | ||
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Destruktor
Spain60 Posts
Should I saturate my third before make units? Should I make units with only 2 bases saturation? I feel if I make units but Terran takes his third instead make a push I will be behind in economy. Thanks in advance | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On January 18 2016 16:35 Destruktor wrote: Hi! I like to play macro games vs Terran and I always take my third, make almost pure drones until saturate my three bases and then make units BUT, I usually lose because some Terran timing or push in that moment. Terran player has 2 bases and attacks while his is taking his third. I have a lot of drones but not enough army units. I don't know if I have to improve my macro or cut drone producction earlier. Should I saturate my third before make units? Should I make units with only 2 bases saturation? I feel if I make units but Terran takes his third instead make a push I will be behind in economy. Thanks in advance So I am only gold, but I think I can answer this. You can't decide when to cut drones ahead of the game. It depends on what your opponent is doing. So you need to scout what he is doing, and then decide whether you should drone or unit depending on what you see. Use zerglings (build a few when your pool pops) and overlords at the start. Then exactly how to react to what you see, I'll leave to someone more qualified. But if you want to play reactive defensive macro, the basic principle is that you want to figure out when he will attack, and then build enough units as late as possible to defend the attack. Before that only economy, tech to what you want to defend with, and enough defense to hold of harassment. It's really hard to hit that timing exactly, and you look really silly when you get it wrong and sit with only drones and a push is coming into your natural. The other extreme is building a lot of units too early, and then have them sit in your base doing nothing while your economy is suffering. You also have the options of building units before magic point to go all-in, snipe a third, harass and that kind of things, but you seemed to want to go the most defensive macro style possible. | ||
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Magus.421
France159 Posts
On January 18 2016 16:35 Destruktor wrote: Hi! I like to play macro games vs Terran and I always take my third, make almost pure drones until saturate my three bases and then make units BUT, I usually lose because some Terran timing or push in that moment. Terran player has 2 bases and attacks while his is taking his third. I have a lot of drones but not enough army units. I don't know if I have to improve my macro or cut drone producction earlier. Should I saturate my third before make units? Should I make units with only 2 bases saturation? I feel if I make units but Terran takes his third instead make a push I will be behind in economy. Thanks in advance You should not saturate your third until you scout the terran. You must suicide an overlord around 3:20 to see what he's doing. If you see a third CC, he can push but it will not be that hard to defend. Just look at this buildings. If you see only rax, it will be a marine/maraudeur push so you need speedling. If you see factory + starport, put one spore by base (and maybe 2 more spores to defends more spots) at 4:15 and make queens. If you don't see any third base on the way, just add 8 drones to your third to have the same income as the terran (more or less) and make units dependings of what you scout. | ||
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fp_aldrich
5 Posts
Just some background - After completing LotV and re-playing WOL and HOTS campaigns, I decided maybe it is time to try multiplayer and picked Zerg. There is an insane amount of sites, build orders, variations, tips etc and most of them still focused on HOTS OR on specific strategies so I'm very confused and don't know where to start. I've done a lot of research on Zerg mechanics etc. so I'm ok with that, I'm lacking basic build orders to start with. Can someone please help with a few basic build orders (one for each match-up), appropriate for LotV, to learn as "my first" build orders to get into multiplayer? Thanks | ||
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A_needle_jog
Korea (South)699 Posts
On January 18 2016 21:22 fp_aldrich wrote: Hi, Just some background - After completing LotV and re-playing WOL and HOTS campaigns, I decided maybe it is time to try multiplayer and picked Zerg. There is an insane amount of sites, build orders, variations, tips etc and most of them still focused on HOTS OR on specific strategies so I'm very confused and don't know where to start. I've done a lot of research on Zerg mechanics etc. so I'm ok with that, I'm lacking basic build orders to start with. Can someone please help with a few basic build orders (one for each match-up), appropriate for LotV, to learn as "my first" build orders to get into multiplayer? Thanks Well since you are probably on a lower league I give you some safe basic build orders that are kind of safe versus cheese ZvP : - 13 Overlord - 17 Hatch Expansion - 18 Gas - 18 Pool - 20 Overlord build drones and keep 2 larvae when pool pops, research zergling speed, build 4 lings and 2 queens and from there on you have to scout/decide yourself if you go reactive play or offensive alternatively you can go 2 expansion hatches before pool, but then you lose versus proxy gate. No idea how much cheese there is on lower leagues ZvT: - 13 Overlord - 17 Hatch Expansion - 17 Gas - 17 Pool - 20 Overlord build drones and keep 3 larvae when pool pops, research zergling speed, build 6 lings and 2 queens, add another 2 queens if opponent comes with more than 2 reapers and from there on you have to scout/decide yourself if you go reactive play or offensive ZvZ: Basically safest way to play is 13 gas 12 pool then 14 overlord and wait for 6 zergling to come out. You can also go 14 Gas 14 Pool or 17 gas 17 pool with fast baneling nest. Some people play hatch first, but it is hard to defend on some maps against 13/12. ZvZ is a bit of weird matchup atm. I have a pretty high winrate in ZvZ, but I don't know why haha  | ||
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Maxie
Sweden2653 Posts
Since PiG's ZvT guide is ling/bling centric, if you want to try out roach/ravager in ZvT you could check this out. As for ZvZ you have blade's guide which is also in the strategy section. Personally I open 16 gas 16 pool (or maybe it's 17 17? I can't remember) 18 hatch which is an opener that is fairly safe. | ||
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LoveTool
Sweden143 Posts
On January 18 2016 16:35 Destruktor wrote: Should I saturate my third before make units? Should I make units with only 2 bases saturation? I feel if I make units but Terran takes his third instead make a push I will be behind in economy. If terran has made a 3rd CC at all you should be able to drone up to 66 drones. However... There is a LOT of early and mid-game pressure that terran can do, and also 2-base pushes (in which case you may need to cut drones before 3base sat). So you need to scout for these, be able to recognize what is going on, then respond. Some of the defenses will be very challenging to your multi-tasking, of your macro will slip while dealing w the harass and you risk falling behind. Some fundamentals are a 3:30 overlord scout. Is there starport done? Can you confirm a 3rd CC? Is there more than 1 rax? Is there tank production? What is being reactored out? What add-ons? Is there an armory+ etc etc etc Also, always place a ling outside terran's potential 3rd/attack path, so you recognize when your opponent moves out and/or establishes a 3rd. A small tip, if you always open with 6-7 queens and a spine at your 3rd you can deal with a lot of pressure without a huge army plus get some good creep spread going. | ||
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A_needle_jog
Korea (South)699 Posts
On January 18 2016 16:35 Destruktor wrote: Hi! I like to play macro games vs Terran and I always take my third, make almost pure drones until saturate my three bases and then make units BUT, I usually lose because some Terran timing or push in that moment. Terran player has 2 bases and attacks while his is taking his third. I have a lot of drones but not enough army units. I don't know if I have to improve my macro or cut drone producction earlier. Should I saturate my third before make units? Should I make units with only 2 bases saturation? I feel if I make units but Terran takes his third instead make a push I will be behind in economy. Thanks in advance Depending on how a terran plays you have lost the game at some point early on actually. I have lost a lot of games to terrans that went the following : - Terran starts 2 rax - Terran builds about 4-6 reapers - Terran adds 2 CC's Depending on how you defend the early reaper harass you will already have lost the game. It happened to me quite a lot, because I defended the reaper push but was behind in drones because terran stopped with building reaper units and only build scv and cc's Terran is at like 40 scv then and you are at 35 drones. Then zerg takes third hatch, but terran already has 3rd cc finished and flies to third. Zerg will eventually catch up with drones at about 55-60, but it doesn't matter anymore because terran has mined more already and is preparing units for push now. Only options are : - Better defending and earlier third base or - Timing push with Baneling/Zergling or Roach/Ravager and crush the greedy terran. | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
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A_needle_jog
Korea (South)699 Posts
On January 19 2016 11:05 guitarizt wrote: I keep hearing people talk about optimal first ov timings. Is this anywhere on tl? I'll spare my own thoughts on it as it started to become a small essay when I typed it out. at 13/14 when you have 100 minerals is optimal point | ||
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fp_aldrich
5 Posts
On January 18 2016 23:56 A_needle_jog wrote: Well since you are probably on a lower league I give you some safe basic build orders that are kind of safe versus cheese ZvP : - 13 Overlord - 17 Hatch Expansion - 18 Gas - 18 Pool - 20 Overlord build drones and keep 2 larvae when pool pops, research zergling speed, build 4 lings and 2 queens and from there on you have to scout/decide yourself if you go reactive play or offensive alternatively you can go 2 expansion hatches before pool, but then you lose versus proxy gate. No idea how much cheese there is on lower leagues ZvT: - 13 Overlord - 17 Hatch Expansion - 17 Gas - 17 Pool - 20 Overlord build drones and keep 3 larvae when pool pops, research zergling speed, build 6 lings and 2 queens, add another 2 queens if opponent comes with more than 2 reapers and from there on you have to scout/decide yourself if you go reactive play or offensive ZvZ: Basically safest way to play is 13 gas 12 pool then 14 overlord and wait for 6 zergling to come out. You can also go 14 Gas 14 Pool or 17 gas 17 pool with fast baneling nest. Some people play hatch first, but it is hard to defend on some maps against 13/12. ZvZ is a bit of weird matchup atm. I have a pretty high winrate in ZvZ, but I don't know why haha Thank you, much appreciated! From the little I have read, if I understand correctly these ZvP and ZvT builds are good middle-ground ones (balance between economic and aggression, can go either way) but the ZvZ one is more towards aggression? Just want to wrap my head around where it can go from there | ||
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fp_aldrich
5 Posts
On January 18 2016 23:59 Maxie wrote: If I were you I'd take a look at PiG's guides for ZvP and ZvT, they are here in the strategy section. Since PiG's ZvT guide is ling/bling centric, if you want to try out roach/ravager in ZvT you could check this out. As for ZvZ you have blade's guide which is also in the strategy section. Personally I open 16 gas 16 pool (or maybe it's 17 17? I can't remember) 18 hatch which is an opener that is fairly safe. Thanks, will have a look | ||
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