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On January 10 2016 13:19 learning88 wrote:Hi everyone. I'm a returning Zerg player, was a mid-Platinum HOTS Zerg player but slowly moved away from the game due to time constraints. I wanted to come back but I have no idea what BOs to use for each matchup. I'm looking for standard macro BOs but there are no guides around  . The only thing I've come up with is: 13 ovie 17 hatch 18 gas 18 pool 18/19 ovie @100% pool-> 2 queens and 2 pairs of lings @100 gas ling speed -> pull 2 drones from gas 3:15-3:20 sac ovie @2 base saturation->3rd hatch at expo This is a rough draft of what I have but I don't know what else there is.
My advice to you is simple. Pretty much follow that but take your third as early as possible.
Outside of that the best thing you could do right now for yourself is just experiment with the units. There are a few pre-define builds out there however I honestly think the best thing you can do in LotV atm is just play and try out comps, play around with the new units and you might be surprised to see what works!
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For larve inject I do the following:
- add hotkey for inject to "^"-key (or whatever is the key left to key "1") in options
- group all queens in group 1
- and then cycle through hatcheries with space, press 1 to select queens, press ^ to select inject, left click.
With this, I can inject a hatcheries with one hand movement, as I press space with my thumb, 1 with middle finger, ^ with ring finger and then left click. The only drouble I have sometimes, is a messing up of queens, any tips?
(I'm only playing 1-2 times a week, so the prefered camera-position method using F-keys will be too hard to learn for me :/ )
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On January 11 2016 16:50 Stips wrote:
For larve inject I do the following:
- add hotkey for inject to "^"-key (or whatever is the key left to key "1") in options
- group all queens in group 1
- and then cycle through hatcheries with space, press 1 to select queens, press ^ to select inject, left click.
With this, I can inject a hatcheries with one hand movement, as I press space with my thumb, 1 with middle finger, ^ with ring finger and then left click. The only drouble I have sometimes, is a messing up of queens, any tips?
(I'm only playing 1-2 times a week, so the prefered camera-position method using F-keys will be too hard to learn for me :/ )
Most people have abandoned that inject method in lotv, as it causes queen wandering a lot more as you point out. Some people hotkey queens individually and double tap (idra style), but most common I think, which is what pros on stream do, is to just use location hotkeys over your bases and drag-select your local queen. Guaranteed no wandering. I have moved my camera hotkeys to WERT (and 45 as well) to not have to reach to the F-keys. The few abilities on WERT can be moved without much fuss.
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You have to play 17 hatch 17 gas 17 pool and get fast speed upgrade for minizergdogs versus terran and overwhelm early reaper opening with speedlings. There is sadly no other way. You can add a fast roach warren, but I think best way is doing it like pro gamers.
- drone scout at 16~ drones on 2 player maps. drone scout at 14 drones on 4 player maps
- 17 hatch
- 17 gas when about 100 mins
- 17 pool
- 19 overlord
- save up larvae for 4-6 zerglings
- build 2 queens (one in each hatch)
- start speed upgrade
- if your drone scout sees 2-3 rax then add more zerling and/or roach warren
- defend with micro. important to hit injects
- add another queen for creep spread
- add roach if too many reaper
- surround reaper with lings
- morph roaches that are low on HP into ravager
- when you defend reaper take third base and drone or attack enemy with your army
it takes some practice to know the map where reaper can go. when you have enough matches it becomes easier to defend. first couple of matches you probably gonna struggle with injects and micro, but after about 5-10 ZvTs with reaper you will get the hang of it!
hope it helps
Thanks a lot. I will try that.
As others said, I would strongly recommend a speedopening.
Regarding the mech comp: I had great trouble with roach-hydra because Cyclones keep kiting them. Infestors work great but then you may have problems with your gas. I currently play Infestor/zerglings/roaches (zerglings are great against cyclones but you need those roaches against hellbats). It's not as gas-heavy as infestor/hydra/roach so you can tech to hive much earlier and get BLs/Vipers.
Funny thing is, when playing against mech, I usually face thor-tank-liberator. Not a single cyclone. Maybe, if there are no/a few hellbats, going ling heavy is advisable. I got really surprised when I saw mutalisks (in low numbers) getting slaughtered by cyclones. Thanks for the help.
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Hey everyone,
I started SC2 with LotV (I played like 50 games on the ladder in 2011, but that's all).
I'm only focusing on macro macro macro, and I reached plat yesterday after 70 games and I'm glad with it.
But I struggle in ZvZ, because I can't macro like I'd want to. I recently admitted it was only 1 ou 2 bases agressiv play, so I picked up Yogo's build (16/16/16 pool/gas/hatch, speedling + banelings) but it's still not great. Mainly because I have trouble micro-ing banelings (my opponent too) so it's really a random game, the best detonation wins.
To illustrate it, I have 65% wins vP, 67% vT, and "only" 55% vZ. And according to me, it is mainly because I can't macro.
So, my question is, is it possible to avoid these glings/banelings ZvZ ? Like, rushing roaches to defend, then going into a macro game, or something ? Or am I forced to learn how to micro these banelings properly ? (or try the 11 gas / 10 pool / 17 baneling nest I recently faced)
Thanks and sorry for my english.
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On January 12 2016 01:53 Azke wrote:
Hey everyone,
I started SC2 with LotV (I played like 50 games on the ladder in 2011, but that's all).
I'm only focusing on macro macro macro, and I reached plat yesterday after 70 games and I'm glad with it.
But I struggle in ZvZ, because I can't macro like I'd want to. I recently admitted it was only 1 ou 2 bases agressiv play, so I picked up Yogo's build (16/16/16 pool/gas/hatch, speedling + banelings) but it's still not great. Mainly because I have trouble micro-ing banelings (my opponent too) so it's really a random game, the best detonation wins.
To illustrate it, I have 65% wins vP, 67% vT, and "only" 55% vZ. And according to me, it is mainly because I can't macro.
So, my question is, is it possible to avoid these glings/banelings ZvZ ? Like, rushing roaches to defend, then going into a macro game, or something ? Or am I forced to learn how to micro these banelings properly ? (or try the 11 gas / 10 pool / 17 baneling nest I recently faced)
Thanks and sorry for my english.
You could try a doing a roach opener, but if they do really early pressure I'd drop the baneling nest anyway. Roach openers are kind of safe on maps where you can put like four roaches on the ramp on hold position and block it that way.
I think Snute did something roughly like 16 gas 16 pool 18 hatch ~25 roach warren into ling speed and roaches when I watched his stream a while ago.
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On January 12 2016 01:53 Azke wrote:
Hey everyone,
I started SC2 with LotV (I played like 50 games on the ladder in 2011, but that's all).
I'm only focusing on macro macro macro, and I reached plat yesterday after 70 games and I'm glad with it.
But I struggle in ZvZ, because I can't macro like I'd want to. I recently admitted it was only 1 ou 2 bases agressiv play, so I picked up Yogo's build (16/16/16 pool/gas/hatch, speedling + banelings) but it's still not great. Mainly because I have trouble micro-ing banelings (my opponent too) so it's really a random game, the best detonation wins.
To illustrate it, I have 65% wins vP, 67% vT, and "only" 55% vZ. And according to me, it is mainly because I can't macro.
So, my question is, is it possible to avoid these glings/banelings ZvZ ? Like, rushing roaches to defend, then going into a macro game, or something ? Or am I forced to learn how to micro these banelings properly ? (or try the 11 gas / 10 pool / 17 baneling nest I recently faced)
Thanks and sorry for my english.
Technically you can, but honestly, as much as it sucks, just practice dealing with ling/bling wars. I hate and generally am horrible at ling/bling wars, if I can survive through it I have a very high percentage win chance. But if you can practise and get better at it I think you will be better in the long run.
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On January 10 2016 07:07 IcemanAsi wrote:
I agree with your points on scouting and timings, like I said, this was a real sloppy game by me, but I'm not so sure about roaches being a good counter to this, I did some tests with 'unit tester' map and here are the numbers.
He hits me with 4 thors, 6 marines, 6 scvs.
Beating that with straight up roaches takes 25+ roaches for a narrow win, that's 1875 minerals 625 gas 50 supply ( + 300 minerals supply diff).
Beating the same with lingBane takes 50 ling 10 banes for a very decisive win with 1750 minerals 250 gas 30 supply.
I think I mostly over droned on the third base and needed to drop the bane nest eariler, thou I agree that a safety warren would have been the right play as well, no to mention your other timing tips.
-The surround and highground at the top of the third ramp makes a massive difference (which you don't get with ling/banelings as they don't have ranged attacks).
-You had a spine and 2 queens to support. 20 roaches would be enough. 20 roaches is trivial to build on 3 base.
-Roaches live after fighting, banelings die.
-Roaches are better against hellions, tanks, cyclones and mines than lings and banes, which come out of the 2 factories he had.
You scout factories, you build a roach warren, period (or "full stop" as they call it where I come from). You're not Nestea, so the counter to factory units is roaches, not ling/bane.
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^
I don't agree at all that roaches counter tanks, or ravagers for that matter. The marine tank liberator pushes I've seen wipe the floor with roaches.
I only build roaches against early hellion stuff or hellbat and that's it
ling/bane is just the only thing that consistently deals with marine/tank/etc
It also has the upside of not being obliterated by heavily liberator use
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On January 12 2016 01:53 Azke wrote:So, my question is, is it possible to avoid these glings/banelings ZvZ ? Like, rushing roaches to defend, then going into a macro game, or something ? Or am I forced to learn how to micro these banelings properly ? (or try the 11 gas / 10 pool / 17 baneling nest I recently faced) I do this all the time.
Rank 2 Plat atm, my stats are not the best in ZvZ, because it took me long time to find this build 
I started with bane ling, got tired of it, switched to 1/1 roach openings, but it was hard to move out against the counter attacks.
What I do atm, and what seems to work really good in ZvZ, is to go gasless.
17 hatch, 16 or 18 pool depending on scouting, 6x ling, 2x queen.
queen at natural puts a creep towards the ramp instead of injecting.
immediately 2x queen when your first queens are about to pop.
vs pool first build a spine
vs hatch first delay it
once creep reaches the ramp, build 2x evo chamber, put crawler defensively, put your 2x first queens to block the holes.
on some maps first 2 queens on a ramp with a spine behind them are enough to hold a lot of lings and banes. those queens should not use energy and save it for transfuses. you can even add another queen to the block to make it even more ling/bane proof.
when your second batch of queens is building (around 50%), grab 2x gas
100 gas - lair and 2x gas again
drone up, scout, add 1-2 spines against all-ins (or skip it if you feel safe), against roach all-ins you need up to 5 spines and 20-30 lings, delay your mutas and get those defenses out.
once mutas pop, harass, get 3rd, get baneling nest and infestation pit.
harass and build up banelings to counter hydras.
transition into muta ling bling corruptor brood lord.
melee/carapace and air upgrade optional - you have evos, might as well use them once your mutas are ready.
veto lerirak - too big to block the path to your main
also central protocol - back door can kill you when you wait for mutas and he goes to your main instead of natural where you have spines.
prion terraces are also bad because opponent can grab gold and you can do nothing about it.
i can give you a couple of replays vs plat/diamond opponents if you want to see how this build looks in practice (although they might not follow the outlined build 100%, some of them might be from the time when I still worked on the build myself)
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Alright, thanks to you three, I'll try what you said.
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ZvZ speedling/baneling battles are pretty much the standard at the moment because of the map pool. On most of the map, you can't block your ramp with 2 queens + 1 spine like you could on hots.
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Macro is important in ZvZ but it's more important scout and know when to drone and when to make army. Know if your opponent is going roaches or mutas, if he is taking his third before you, doing upgrades or he is playing greedy ( to punish that) or agreesive ( to make defense).
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ZvZ is very complicated and I don't think there are any player who completely understand all of it currently.
Most important part is game sense and scouting. It is super hard to know if enemy is droning or building zerglings, very hard to tell. In ZvZ you need learn to read small things and draw conclusions from it
Crucial things to scout :
- How many drones does opponent have at natural?
- How fast is roach warren timing?
- How fast is second gas?
- How fast is baneling nest?
- How fast is lair timing?
- How many spine crawler has enemy?
Let's say if you see enemy has many spine crawler and no baneling nest, then you can drone up and take third.
If enemy has 2 gas fast roach warren and not many drones on natural then enemy probably roach push
If enemy has fast baneling nest and not many drones on natural then he baneling lin all in probably.
It is also very important to have "overlord-chain" haha I use that term to describe the overlords from your base to enemy base that see all movement. So you see when he move out and where he goes.
ZvZ is very complicated, much harder than other matchups to read and understand.
In last couple of days Snute has played about 600 billion ZvZ on his stream to pratice I think it is good source for knowledge, but sadly you can only watch snute VODS when subscribtion on twitch
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Hey guys, I was a high masters Zerg in WOL and left at the start of HOTS due to real life commitments. I just got LOTV and was wondering what the key points are that I need to look for and the major differences in match up these days, I'm gonna go on a whim and say 12 min max roach isn't a thing against Toss these days haha
Thanks in advance for any advice
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I have been like insta-dying to all the early air pressure against P and especially T, can anyone give me a guideline of how many queens they take against each match up? I have been playing with 2 more than I have bases and it doesn't seem to work too well.
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On January 13 2016 23:32 atstapley wrote:
I have been like insta-dying to all the early air pressure against P and especially T, can anyone give me a guideline of how many queens they take against each match up? I have been playing with 2 more than I have bases and it doesn't seem to work too well.
What kind of air are you having the most issues with? Void rays? Liberators?
Against P I'd put down blind spores at ~4 mins and I usually have a single excess queen.
Against T I'd put down spores later depending on if I have scouted anything or not, and depending on the build I can go up to six queens.
Ravagers are very good to have against liberators and can also help a little against void rays since they can't just sit there shooting at your queens but also have to move away.
If it's Phoenixes and they build more than a few just plop down 2x spore crawlers at every base and on some more creep covered places, like where your nat and main connect.
Maybe your scouting needs to get better? You can always build extra queens if you scout more air.
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On January 13 2016 23:46 Maxie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 23:32 atstapley wrote:
I have been like insta-dying to all the early air pressure against P and especially T, can anyone give me a guideline of how many queens they take against each match up? I have been playing with 2 more than I have bases and it doesn't seem to work too well. What kind of air are you having the most issues with? Void rays? Liberators? Against P I'd put down blind spores at ~4 mins and I usually have a single excess queen. Against T I'd put down spores later depending on if I have scouted anything or not, and depending on the build I can go up to six queens. Ravagers are very good to have against liberators and can also help a little against void rays since they can't just sit there shooting at your queens but also have to move away. If it's Phoenixes and they build more than a few just plop down 2x spore crawlers at every base and on some more creep covered places, like where your nat and main connect. Maybe your scouting needs to get better? You can always build extra queens if you scout more air.
I generally receive a lot of damage from drops covered by liberators and warp prism drop+warps. The little harass things don't bother me, but it seems like if I don't go ravagers every single game I can't get AA out fast enough. Is it simply ravagers are currently the most important unit in the zerg army? I greatly prefer banes, honestly.
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Im a Protoss player. Can you zerg players explain to me what counters Lurkers? As far as I can tell nothing does. Certainly no ground units, unless you want to try and get lucky with firing random disruptor balls. Do we have to go into air-toss?
I've never had this much trouble vs one unit before...
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GM / Top master level Zerg, any other Zergs suffering from Mass reaper in ZvT?
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EPT
