EPT
As far as I can tell no. It seems to be mostly trying to follow general idea's, and responding to your opponent. There are opening builds, and a scattering of random builds people have thrown together, but nothing really great, at least that I've seen.
The LotV Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 8
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Hyper1
158 Posts
As far as I can tell no. It seems to be mostly trying to follow general idea's, and responding to your opponent. There are opening builds, and a scattering of random builds people have thrown together, but nothing really great, at least that I've seen. | ||
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AusProbe
Australia235 Posts
Yes there are plenty of builds. You can find some here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CxAiv5lcPCT4pIZfZe91l8ZDGTKTGnlPaiMDTmfpPeU/edit?pref=2&pli=1 http://lotv.spawningtool.com/build/pvx/ . Here is a PvZ guide I wrote also : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/499898-probes-chargelot-immortal-macro-pvz | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
I've heard Oracle can be used for detection, but how do I do it? What ability is it, and what do I use it on? How do I drop while moving like I see the pros do? What's the most effective way to pick up units in my warp prism during a drop? Currently when facing terran I open gateway, assymalator, cyber, nexus, to make sure I can have an adept out by the time a reaper gets to my base. I'm not sure how the timing works though, if I instead gateway expand, will I still be able to get a cyber done before a reaper gets there to spit in my coolaid? I've also noticed better players pull out more often than I do. At what point should I pull out? How do I pull out without them just chasing me down and killing my units anyway? | ||
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Senkii
Hungary37 Posts
You can move the warp prism, then press unload targeting it on the warp prism. You can just box select everything and right click on the warp prism. That build is good. I think you only lose a few seconds if you go gate-1assimilator-nexus-core tough. Most armies have similar speed, so you can usually pull out. If your opponent has a faster army, you should never move out unless you know you are stronger. | ||
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bowmansx
United States26 Posts
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Hyper1
158 Posts
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Sweetness.751
United States225 Posts
If you scout a Spire late, (as it pops) I suggest you move over to his base, throw down some gates and try to finish the Zerg then and there. Otherwise you will probably lose if you sit back and let the game unfold naturally. And if all you have Stalkers at the time, you need to focus fire the Mutas. Otherwise you will lose the efficiency war very quickly. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On January 07 2016 18:30 Sweetness.751 wrote: Mass Archon or mass Carrier are the only true hard counters to Mutas. Phoenix can hold their own, but can be countered with proper micro. Honestly, there is no simple solution to Mutas. Thats why they are so good. Storm can be good, Phoenix can be good, but they have now become soft counters more than hard counters to Mutas even since the super rejuvenation ability was introduced. If you scout a Spire late, (as it pops) I suggest you move over to his base, throw down some gates and try to finish the Zerg then and there. Otherwise you will probably lose if you sit back and let the game unfold naturally. And if all you have are Stalkers a the time, you need to focus fire the Mutas. Otherwise you will lose the efficiency war very quickly. uhhh you're totally in the dark about phoenix vs muta. once upgraded phoenix are out mutas are hardcountered unless you introduce corruptors or infestors, and with infestors you need to land enough chain fungals to kill them or have supplemental dps. any number of range phoenix can kill any number of muta for free if they aren't able to retreat, and forcing muta to retreat kills their utility. it's true that if you only have 4-5 phoenix without range and your micro isn't perfect a muta cloud can pick them off with good moves, but that's an issue of where the game is and whether zerg is far enough ahead/your scouting is bad enough that you aren't able to prepare a counter. with perfect scouting the counter you want is phoenix. there are issues with the guessing game of what zerg is actually doing, but that doesn't mean phoenix don't work. it's archons that can be easily microed around. archons are for ensuring your army can't be fought straight up by mass muta/ling and sometimes for covering mineral lines etc. not a hard counter by any stretch of the imagination. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
On January 07 2016 19:01 brickrd wrote: uhhh you're totally in the dark about phoenix vs muta. once upgraded phoenix are out mutas are hardcountered unless you introduce corruptors or infestors, and with infestors you need to land enough chain fungals to kill them or have supplemental dps. any number of range phoenix can kill any number of muta for free if they aren't able to retreat, and forcing muta to retreat kills their utility. it's true that if you only have 4-5 phoenix without range and your micro isn't perfect a muta cloud can pick them off with good moves, but that's an issue of where the game is and whether zerg is far enough ahead/your scouting is bad enough that you aren't able to prepare a counter. with perfect scouting the counter you want is phoenix. there are issues with the guessing game of what zerg is actually doing, but that doesn't mean phoenix don't work. it's archons that can be easily microed around. archons are for ensuring your army can't be fought straight up by mass muta/ling and sometimes for covering mineral lines etc. not a hard counter by any stretch of the imagination. The problem wasn't that he killed my units so much that he completely ignored them. I didn't scout the spire at all, all my attempts to scout got shot down. I found out he switched to spire when 16 muta's hit my base. I recognize that I should have figured out there was a spire, and seen the muta's move out. The problem is, at that point I still don't know what I could do. Making 16 muta's at once, I can't make enough phoenix to counter that. He didn't even bother fighting them, he just went to all my mineral lines, killed all my workers, and left. My phoenix couldn't kill his muta's before his muta's could kill my mineral lines. I lost simply by not being able to keep up anymore after that. I'm not sure what I should have done at that point. I'm by no means QQing or saying it's OPed, I just have no idea what the correct response would have been. ---------------------- On another note, you guys need to stop me from going back and checking out the blizzard forums. It's so easy to get sucked into responding to all the idiotic QQing and whining. Every section is the same, In general it's all terran complaining about zerg and toss having ways to deal with their units just like in the terran section. In the zerg and protoss section it's post after post about how to deal with terran, lol. It seems like if terran had their way, all counters to their units would be removed, adapts would have their light armor bonus and shade ability removed, which the damage is comparatively less than even a marine. Disruptors would be removed because terran are mad they have to micro to avoid the damage. Ultra's would have their armor removed so marines could take them down easily. Protoss as zerg would lose static defense, and PO would be gone to make sure drops can't be prevented. It's hard not to just get pissed off and want to just dunk their heads in toilets... Wait, that's a good idea. You guys want to go find all the posters their and give them all swirlies? Would make me feel better, and we all know you guys love me, I bring the sexy to bronze league. | ||
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MiniFotToss
China2430 Posts
That's why opening 1-Stargate (Oracle first) phoenix's is actually good vs zerg, you're basically saying: "fuck your mutas, don't you even THINK about getting them or you dead bruh" Basically, just make 4-5 of them and continuously scout, if they get Roach warren and Hydra den, then tech to blink, charge and robo units, if they insist on getting a spire, add another Stargate and get fleet beacon to research phoenix range, and while your at it, get some tempests/carriers for BM. | ||
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FlyingBeer
United States262 Posts
On January 07 2016 14:34 Hyper1 wrote: What counters muta balls? I've had good luck dealing with them with blink stalkers so far, but that's in smaller groups. I played a zerg who dropped a spire, and pumped out 16 muta's. My cannon's and blink stalkers combined didn't even slow them down, I even had been building phoenix for awhile and was up to 5, and they seemed to only tickle the muta's while they flew around killing all my probes. Is there a specific tech path I have to take and build up in every match vs zerg just in case they drop a spire then mass muta out of no where, or is there a different way to counter it. In most match ups I can find where I went wrong, but 16 muta's and everything I had just getting destroyed by being outnumbered, I'm not sure what exactly to do. Practice. If you had time to get 5 phoenix, blink stalkers, and cannons out in reaction to mutas, then you should've been fine. You should have sent in the phoenix, blinked the stalkers, and pulled probes away from the mutas within rapid succession when you realized he was throwing away his muta ball for a few probe kills. Yes, the mutas will kill the probes faster than the mutas die if you don't move the probes away from the mutas, but that's just learning to micro better. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
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Sweetness.751
United States225 Posts
On January 08 2016 14:49 Hyper1 wrote: How do I upload a replay to ask what I should have done in a specific match? I just had another match where I got hit by a muta ball. My entire army got destroyed by lings when I pushed out to expand, and by the time he attacked, he had more muta's than I had blink stalkers. At first I thought maybe I should have tried to harass, but even looking at the replay he had a lot of lings and spines at his base so harass would have done nothing, then pumped out 18 muta's at once and won. Not really sure how to counter that. Nor how to upload to show you guys. From what it sounds. You just hit a skill ceiling. You played someone better than you, and they outplayed you in every facet. Army, econ, and tech. Its ok, it means you are playing better people, which only happens if you are improving. In this case I focus on trying to make your play better rather than asking, "What do I make to beat what he is doing?" Review your macro in that game. Look for your mistakes, then try to not repeat them. | ||
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Sweetness.751
United States225 Posts
On January 07 2016 19:01 brickrd wrote: uhhh you're totally in the dark about phoenix vs muta. once upgraded phoenix are out mutas are hardcountered unless you introduce corruptors or infestors, and with infestors you need to land enough chain fungals to kill them or have supplemental dps. any number of range phoenix can kill any number of muta for free if they aren't able to retreat, and forcing muta to retreat kills their utility. it's true that if you only have 4-5 phoenix without range and your micro isn't perfect a muta cloud can pick them off with good moves, but that's an issue of where the game is and whether zerg is far enough ahead/your scouting is bad enough that you aren't able to prepare a counter. with perfect scouting the counter you want is phoenix. there are issues with the guessing game of what zerg is actually doing, but that doesn't mean phoenix don't work. it's archons that can be easily microed around. archons are for ensuring your army can't be fought straight up by mass muta/ling and sometimes for covering mineral lines etc. not a hard counter by any stretch of the imagination. Well everyone is allowed to form their own opinions. But some of your..."insights," are miguided. Mutas can always retreat with micro. They can abuse vision and Bouncing Glave to create efficient head to head trades. Phoenix are barely faster than Mutas, so chasing is rarely even possible. Now this is higher level analysis so you may not understand all of it, but that is OK. For instance, getting Phoenix range in Phoenix vs Muta is rare and usually means the cutting of ground Army, Phoenix, or possibly both. All of which leave you open to direct Muta/ling engagements or Muta harass in your mineral line depending on what you cut. The reason you see Pros respond with Stargate Phoenix, is because PHOENIX TRULY SHINE DEFENSIVELY. In Phoenix vs Muta vision is extremely important. Competent Muta players will bounce around trying to catch Toss players flying too close. Something that will end poorly for a Toss player lacking proper vision to react. That is why chasing is not recommended, ESPECIALLY in higher leagues. And what you probably forget is that Mutas are splash units. So when the Mutas are bouncing in and out of your vision, going shot for shot with your Phoenix, you are in fact losing the fight because: 1.) Muta regen is faster than shields. 2.) Bouncing Glave hits everything, 3.) Which stops your Phoenix from recharging shields, and also probably doing hull damage. 4.) And the Mutas that didn't get hit in the last engage are still regenerating HPs. Even when unit count is even in Phoenix vs Muta, its far too easy to lose a head on engagement without proper vision or the range upgrade. Your Welcome. While you make some good points that Mutas don't have to fight Archons, That does not make my statement wrong. Let me say it again, Archons hard counter Mutas. Which you indirectly confirmed by the fact that Mutas don't want to fight them. I'de love for you to explain a reasonable scenario in which the Muta player wins a fight or skirmish with the 2 units. | ||
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Sweetness.751
United States225 Posts
On January 07 2016 19:01 brickrd wrote: it's true that if you only have 4-5 phoenix without range and your micro isn't perfect a muta cloud can pick them off with good moves, but that's an issue of where the game is and whether zerg is far enough ahead/your scouting is bad enough that you aren't able to prepare a counter. with perfect scouting the counter you want is phoenix. there are issues with the guessing game of what zerg is actually doing, but that doesn't mean phoenix don't work. What is this? This perfect scouting nonsense? With perfect scouting you can go and snap the Zergs neck. That is what a good player would do. Make some gates get some Archons, then right when the Spire pops, be outside their base to punish them for banking 1k/1k resources on a harassment unit that is weak in low numbers. You don't need Phoenix, but if you have a Stargate already...GREAT! Go make some Phoenix while you are at it. Adds insult to injury. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
On January 08 2016 23:24 Sweetness.751 wrote: From what it sounds. You just hit a skill ceiling. You played someone better than you, and they outplayed you in every facet. Army, econ, and tech. Its ok, it means you are playing better people, which only happens if you are improving. In this case I focus on trying to make your play better rather than asking, "What do I make to beat what he is doing?" Review your macro in that game. Look for your mistakes, then try to not repeat them. That's just it, I know I made a few small mistakes, like being oversaturated, and I'm sure moving my army out to protect while taking a third was a mistake as I got destroyed for it, and not scouting better than I did to see the spire sooner. The problem is even had I done those things, I still don't know how I could have responded. Even if I had noticed the moment spire went down, and dropped 2 stargates, he built 18 muta's. Even with 2 stargates it would take me 5 min 15s to pump out an equal number of phoenix. I thought that maybe I should have harassed to slow him down, but with the number of lings he had at his base any harass would have ended very shortly. Attacking to take advantage of him pooling up resources for the muta's seemed like it would have gone poorly to. I was going blink stalkers so I could deal with the muta's, which I'm pretty sure when have gotten eaten by his lings. If I built zealots/adepts, then when he did build muta's, I'd have nothing at all that could shoot up. That's why I asked about how to upload replays. It's not that I'm asking for an easy way to counter, and if I lose because I messed up, I'm completely fine with that. I want to get better, but I have literally no idea what I could have done differently to have any effect on that. Plus I could use advice on how to expand and take a third and deal with a ling attack like I got. | ||
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GoloSC2
710 Posts
On January 08 2016 23:55 Sweetness.751 wrote: Well everyone is allowed to form their own opinions. But some of your..."insights," are miguided. Mutas can always retreat with micro. They can abuse vision and Bouncing Glave to create efficient head to head trades. Phoenix are barely faster than Mutas, so chasing is rarely even possible. Now this is higher level analysis so you may not understand all of it, but that is OK. For instance, getting Phoenix range in Phoenix vs Muta is rare and usually means the cutting of ground Army, Phoenix, or possibly both. All of which leave you open to direct Muta/ling engagements or Muta harass in your mineral line depending on what you cut. The reason you see Pros respond with Stargate Phoenix, is because PHOENIX TRULY SHINE DEFENSIVELY. In Phoenix vs Muta vision is extremely important. Competent Muta players will bounce around trying to catch Toss players flying too close. Something that will end poorly for a Toss player lacking proper vision to react. That is why chasing is not recommended, ESPECIALLY in higher leagues. And what you probably forget is that Mutas are splash units. So when the Mutas are bouncing in and out of your vision, going shot for shot with your Phoenix, you are in fact losing the fight because: 1.) Muta regen is faster than shields. 2.) Bouncing Glave hits everything, 3.) Which stops your Phoenix from recharging shields, and also probably doing hull damage. 4.) And the Mutas that didn't get hit in the last engage are still regenerating HPs. Even when unit count is even in Phoenix vs Muta, its far too easy to lose a head on engagement without proper vision or the range upgrade. Your Welcome. While you make some good points that Mutas don't have to fight Archons, That does not make my statement wrong. Let me say it again, Archons hard counter Mutas. Which you indirectly confirmed by the fact that Mutas don't want to fight them. I'de love for you to explain a reasonable scenario in which the Muta player wins a fight or skirmish with the 2 units. You didn't mention that Phoenixes can shoot while moving, which is why Mutas can't simply retreat against them. You shouldn't fight the Mutas head on with your Phoenixes but fly away while shooting at them. Also brickrd wasn't questioning the strenght of Archons vs Mutas in direct engagements, unlike Phoenixes they won't stop the Mutas from harassing your base though. | ||
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FlyingBeer
United States262 Posts
On January 09 2016 03:53 Hyper1 wrote: That's why I asked about how to upload replays. It's not that I'm asking for an easy way to counter, and if I lose because I messed up, I'm completely fine with that. I want to get better, but I have literally no idea what I could have done differently to have any effect on that. 1) Locate the file in the Starcraft II folder in your My Documents folder. It should be under something like My Documents\StarCraft II\Accounts\Name####\#####\Replays\Multiplayer 2) Upload the replay onto a replay hosting site such as ggtracker.com 3) Post an [H] thread asking for advice which includes a link to the upload. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On January 08 2016 23:55 Sweetness.751 wrote: Well everyone is allowed to form their own opinions. But some of your..."insights," are miguided. Mutas can always retreat with micro. They can abuse vision and Bouncing Glave to create efficient head to head trades. Phoenix are barely faster than Mutas, so chasing is rarely even possible. Now this is higher level analysis so you may not understand all of it, but that is OK. For instance, getting Phoenix range in Phoenix vs Muta is rare and usually means the cutting of ground Army, Phoenix, or possibly both. All of which leave you open to direct Muta/ling engagements or Muta harass in your mineral line depending on what you cut. The reason you see Pros respond with Stargate Phoenix, is because PHOENIX TRULY SHINE DEFENSIVELY. In Phoenix vs Muta vision is extremely important. Competent Muta players will bounce around trying to catch Toss players flying too close. Something that will end poorly for a Toss player lacking proper vision to react. That is why chasing is not recommended, ESPECIALLY in higher leagues. And what you probably forget is that Mutas are splash units. So when the Mutas are bouncing in and out of your vision, going shot for shot with your Phoenix, you are in fact losing the fight because: 1.) Muta regen is faster than shields. 2.) Bouncing Glave hits everything, 3.) Which stops your Phoenix from recharging shields, and also probably doing hull damage. 4.) And the Mutas that didn't get hit in the last engage are still regenerating HPs. Even when unit count is even in Phoenix vs Muta, its far too easy to lose a head on engagement without proper vision or the range upgrade. Your Welcome. While you make some good points that Mutas don't have to fight Archons, That does not make my statement wrong. Let me say it again, Archons hard counter Mutas. Which you indirectly confirmed by the fact that Mutas don't want to fight them. I'de love for you to explain a reasonable scenario in which the Muta player wins a fight or skirmish with the 2 units. Before you have range, if you get surprised by mutas when your phoenix count is low or non-existent, it is pretty tough and you definitely can't chase the mutas. That is true. Everything else about your intelligence insulting "high level" analysis is awful. Phoenixes HARD counter mutas. Now the circumstances of the game will dictate how effective they actually are. If you scout them super late, that forces you to be defensive with your low phoenix count for a very low time, and zerg will most definitely get way ahead with indirect damage. Sometimes you scout them so late that it's not worth going phoenix at all, and i will concede that reactive phoenix isn't necessarily amazing, albeit still one of the best responses protoss has. BUT in the majority of situations, phoenix is what you want, and once you get range it's a complete joke. If range is researching, it's very risky to move out with their mutas once range is close to finishing cos if the mutas engage the phoenix with range, they will lose EVERY single one of them. Retreating is completely futile, and fighting head on is also completely futile if the protoss micros at all. You say getting phoenix range vs mutas is rare, but lol it's not rare and a very crucial, powerful upgrade that was used a LOT in HotS. Which is not to say archons aren't good vs mutas as well, of course they are. Which is why most players atm go both, archons in their ground army and phoenixes as mobile counters to mutas. Archons are great so the mutas can't engage the ground army while the phoenix are elsewhere. If you're not hitting a timing archon though (which are admittedly pretty powerful atm), the phoenix is the more important response (although it's pretty arbitrary to even make this distinction). In LotV, yes range is less common, but that's because people are opening so many phoenixes that making any mutas at all is highly discouraged atm, and so range isn't even needed. Let's think about some of the strong openings we've seen recently: Disruptor drop into 2 stargate phoenix Morrow's adept drop into disruptor drop into 2 stargate phoenix with chargelot/immo/archon on the ground Myunsik's fast 3rd base into 2 stargate phoenix with chargelot/immo/archon Probe's chargelot/immo/archon with phoenix opening MacSed's fast 3rd base into adept WP attack into 2 stargate phoenix Note there are also strong builds like PtitDrogo's one which can hit strong timings against mutas without phoenix, but phoenix are basically a standard unit to get in every PvZ game atm because of how they deter mutas. This is pretty much the reason we aren't seeing every protoss in the world lose to ling/ravager into muta, which we were seeing during most of the late beta period. Yes, these players aren't necessarily responding with phoenix against mutas, but they're opening so heavy on the phoenix that the zergs are considering not making mutas in the first place. Which, in my mind, makes it more than a soft counter. Also, considering that phoenix are really great at picking up lurkers during engagements, they've become a good overall unit in a protoss army, rather than just a muta counter. We can expect this phoenix trend to continue IMO, unless significant balance or meta changes happen in the game. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
So what could I have done to change the outcome of the game? | ||
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