EPTThe LotV Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 7
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Sweetness.751
United States225 Posts
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Weltall
Italy83 Posts
What is the correct answer to liberators zone-plays from terrans? On some maps, like dusk towers, liberators are placed in keypoints and make enemy army non-engageable. They take half map and I can't move, expecially if they put tanks and revelation towers. Do I have switch to air with tempests/carriers? Can't blink or flak them, also can't attack with prism because they have turrets anywhere. Or do I have them to move? I hate to wait them to come under my base, they have too much mobility with dropships And I would like to avoid be zoned | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
On January 01 2016 20:23 Weltall wrote: Hi guys, What is the correct answer to liberators zone-plays from terrans? On some maps, like dusk towers, liberators are placed in keypoints and make enemy army non-engageable. They take half map and I can't move, expecially if they put tanks and revelation towers. Do I have switch to air with tempests/carriers? Can't blink or flak them, also can't attack with prism because they have turrets anywhere. Or do I have them to move? I hate to wait them to come under my base, they have too much mobility with dropships And I would like to avoid be zoned Ok, I'm not very good so this advice could be terrible, but it's worked out for me when I try it. I had issues fighting terran who built a lot of towers because it prevented me from getting high ground vision, harassing, or anything like that. So if they build towers, liberators, and tanks (I agree, very annoying) my solution has been to just turn greedy. I go blink stalkers, then try to contain them as best I can. Then I expand repeatedly behind that, and build tons of warp gates. I'm talking like 16-20. I upgrade, build up an army, and just bide my time. If they drop I try to defend it, but also realize that if my base falls, I've got like 4-5 others and they're still on 2-3, so even a drop isn't a huge deal at that point. I wait till my first 3 bases are about mined out, as I figure he's probably running dry so I'll have a bigger advantage. Then build Charge-lots and rush in with them and blink stalkers. I use the stalkers to focus down liberators, and let my zealots rush past the zones into melee to benefit from tank friendly fire splash. Then I zerg them. I just constantly keep warping in units and pushing. I don't care if I'm not taking efficient trades, I have an economy, and he has a clock over his head, so I just keep pushing until he falls. So far that's the only thing that's worked for me. I've considered trying some more complex stuff, but I'm not that good yet. I hope this helps. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
So are there any advantages/situations where you may get Disruptors over HT? Also, are there any differences in how we should react between seeing a factory techlab opening (cyclone) with the first Adept or a 3 rax after expand (?). | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
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Sweetness.751
United States225 Posts
On January 02 2016 02:59 Hider wrote: Just wondering, because I've been trying to make Disruptors work TvP, and they feel really hard to use vs drops/liberators and even quite punishing vs bio play. On the other hand, HT's seems simpler and just as effective vs bio + better vs drops/Liberators. So are there any advantages/situations where you may get Disruptors over HT? Also, are there any differences in how we should react between seeing a factory techlab opening (cyclone) with the first Adept or a 3 rax after expand (?). Technically speaking the Disruptor has higher DPS and can be used more often over time compared to HT Storm. However in game, HTs are easier to use and have a more practical DPS. HTs are harder to micro against because of their instant cast ability. This also means you can get a last second Storm off, where as with a Disruptor, if it dies, the spell disappears. For sub Master players I would definitely recommend HTs over Disruptors, except in PvP where the Bonus damage makes a noticeable difference. In that case, if you want to avoid Disruptor battles, go Phoenix, Chargelot, Immortal, Archon. The factory Cyclone basically serves a defensive roll against drops, early gateway harass, or Stargate tech . If they go Factory before expand, then the Cyclone can push your natural to pick off pylons, probes, gateway units, and god forbid your MSC. If you have a stalker and a pylon, you can disrupt their Cyclone harass with good micro and overcharges. If you went too greedy, then you need to pull everything up your ramp and let him target fire buildings till you've built up a few stalkers to counter micro his Cyclones. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
A single Disruptor isn't particularly scary but neither is a single HT (actually a single HT as long as I had 4+ medivacs I could pretty much ignore, whereas a single Disruptor catching me off guard might still cost me a game). I'd rather face 6+ HT than 4+ Disruptors any day. The only real advantages I feel like HT have over Disruptors atm is the production building (warp gate >>>> robotics), ability to hit air (not really relevant until late game where you can usually afford both anyway) and the ease of use (HT are basically 1a + t while Disruptors are pretty micro intensive). Especially at higher levels Terran isn't going to lose much to a Disruptor shot or Storm if he's sitting there babysitting his army. The key to playing either Disruptor or HT against Terran is that you have to force mistakes out of your opponent by making him split his attention across multiple areas at once. Use DT's, Warp Prisms, Blink Stalkers behind mineral lines, Oracles, generally anything you can do to force him to pay attention to things other than the main battle. It only takes one moment of carelessness for everything to go horrible wrong for him. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
Which also gets me thinking, I hear people talking about not building too many pylons if you don't need the extra supply. I'm fine at first, but once I get my second up and running I start building more pylons than I need. I build 2 for each lot of buildings, 2 in each mineral line (one at each end), and a couple around my base for vision and in case I need a pylon there for room to warp or a PO. If I'm building too many, where to I build them to defend against things like drops, or muta balls with less pylons? | ||
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Sweetness.751
United States225 Posts
On January 02 2016 12:03 Hyper1 wrote: I apologize for all the questions, but I ask new things as they come up. What's the best option for dealing with reapers? I just lost a game based on reaper harass, he sent in one reaper, and I was able to chase him off with a MSC and adapt, but not until losing a few probes. Then he came back with 4, and while I killed them, it set me back far enough that the bio/tank ball that showed up shortly after ate me pretty easily. Is adept the right choice, or should I go stalker? Which also gets me thinking, I hear people talking about not building too many pylons if you don't need the extra supply. I'm fine at first, but once I get my second up and running I start building more pylons than I need. I build 2 for each lot of buildings, 2 in each mineral line (one at each end), and a couple around my base for vision and in case I need a pylon there for room to warp or a PO. If I'm building too many, where to I build them to defend against things like drops, or muta balls with less pylons? Adepts or Stalkers are fine. Unless he is doing multi-proxy Barracks Reaper, you can hold off the Reaper harass with a single Gateway and good micro. There are limited spots where a Reaper can enter your base. Take note of them and position your units to cover all of them and you shouldn't be caught off guard. Yes over pyloning your base is a minor problem plaguing Protoss players as of late. Toss players have started using it as a crutch of sorts to deal with everything and thus precious minerals are being wasted early. However, I bet supply blocks are now a thing of the past haha. But seriously, you should not have more than one pylon guarding the back of your mineral line. I suggest 1 pylon in back behind the mineral line and one pylon for warping in near the nexus. try to make them diagonally across from one another so together they cover the entire mineral line. Those two should be all you need to defend your Nexus. Anything more and you are wasting resources on extra pylons that could be gateways for additional defensive units in the early/mid game or used to grant vision on the map and in your base. Of course there are exceptions in the higher leagues. But when you get up there, you will know when to make them. | ||
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brmr2k
9 Posts
On January 02 2016 01:25 Hyper1 wrote: Ok, I'm not very good so this advice could be terrible, but it's worked out for me when I try it. I had issues fighting terran who built a lot of towers because it prevented me from getting high ground vision, harassing, or anything like that. So if they build towers, liberators, and tanks (I agree, very annoying) my solution has been to just turn greedy. I go blink stalkers, then try to contain them as best I can. Then I expand repeatedly behind that, and build tons of warp gates. I'm talking like 16-20. I upgrade, build up an army, and just bide my time. If they drop I try to defend it, but also realize that if my base falls, I've got like 4-5 others and they're still on 2-3, so even a drop isn't a huge deal at that point. I wait till my first 3 bases are about mined out, as I figure he's probably running dry so I'll have a bigger advantage. Then build Charge-lots and rush in with them and blink stalkers. I use the stalkers to focus down liberators, and let my zealots rush past the zones into melee to benefit from tank friendly fire splash. Then I zerg them. I just constantly keep warping in units and pushing. I don't care if I'm not taking efficient trades, I have an economy, and he has a clock over his head, so I just keep pushing until he falls. So far that's the only thing that's worked for me. I've considered trying some more complex stuff, but I'm not that good yet. I hope this helps. the bosstoss was given us an answer yesterday- ofc! He was facing the same lib-tank-cyclone-bio-turret containment. His solution? snowball time! :D He just shaded through the lib-zones with a descent amount of adepts (10?) killing the tanks which broke up the whole setup. Unfortunately i cant remember which game it was (he played about 80 games yesterday ^^) so i can not provide a replay. But I will definitely give it a try next time im facing this s**t... (@gold). <3 bosstoss | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
A single Disruptor isn't particularly scary but neither is a single HT (actually a single HT as long as I had 4+ medivacs I could pretty much ignore, whereas a single Disruptor catching me off guard might still cost me a game). I'd rather face 6+ HT than 4+ Disruptors any day. The only real advantages I feel like HT have over Disruptors atm is the production building (warp gate >>>> robotics), ability to hit air (not really relevant until late game where you can usually afford both anyway) and the ease of use (HT are basically 1a + t while Disruptors are pretty micro intensive). The difference is not as much in terms of HT vs Disruptor, but rather that when going Disruptors you need to mass Stalkers to have any chance at all to deal with drops. With HT, it makes more sense to mix in Chargelots/archons which actually perform very well in direct engagements, which makes you less reliant on hitting Psi Storms. After watching Neebs stream it also seems like a neccesity to use a Warp Prism and harass with the Disruptor while playing defensively with your main army. Whereas with High Templars I feel its easier to be out on the map. Anyway, I actually felt that Disruptors are also insanely strong late game against Zerg (Roach, Ravager, Hydra, Lurker). Its mainly against terran where the immobility + lack of air damage makes them very hard to use. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
On January 02 2016 20:38 brmr2k wrote: the bosstoss was given us an answer yesterday- ofc! He was facing the same lib-tank-cyclone-bio-turret containment. His solution? snowball time! :D He just shaded through the lib-zones with a descent amount of adepts (10?) killing the tanks which broke up the whole setup. Unfortunately i cant remember which game it was (he played about 80 games yesterday ^^) so i can not provide a replay. But I will definitely give it a try next time im facing this s**t... (@gold). <3 bosstoss How did the bio not just eat all of the adepts? Adepts don't get bonus damage against tanks so it would take a bit to take them down. The bio should have been able to eat the adapts well before that happened. I've tried that before and even against the light units they're supposed to be strong against they seem to dies pretty easily. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
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DanceSC
United States751 Posts
When I play against terran or zerg I know when the game is over when I see their composition move across the map. When you know you have lost because you cannot hold that or produce an army to combat it in the time it takes them to get to your base, but I have never experienced a game end because my composition was better than my opponents, they just stick in the game, and rally bio in their main or try some sort of base trade. Am I doing something wrong? Because if I crush my opponent shouldn't I be able to obtain a composition that is capable of winning the game immediately after? I kid you not I lost a 40 minute game about an hour and a half ago having double the resource score of my terran opponent, because he could kite my archon / immortal army and land emps on my high temps before my feedback went off. The guy sat on 4 bases and I was up to 7. I have full upgrades researched 3-3-3 with charge blink and resonating glaives, I have speed shuttle and all tech paths open. The only thing I haven't experimented with was carriers and I only used the msc twice and that was against zerg. Oh and I don't utilize void rays or sentry force fields, I use sentrys for the bubble. | ||
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Sweetness.751
United States225 Posts
On January 03 2016 17:56 DanceSC wrote: What should my end game composition be against zerg and terran? I am playing 30 min + games like crazy and no matter what composition I experimetn with, bio widowmine liberator always beats me, and mass hydra viper lurker always beats me. Vs Z my end game comp is usually tempest, archon, immortal, htemps for storm and feedback, adept for revelation and shuttle dt zealot for harass. And my Vs T is immortal blink stalker storm and tempest, but if I over commit tempest they beat me with bio, and if I under produce the tempest I get smoked by the liberators, they always stim and move away from the disruptor shots so I have given up on those, I can never get value out of them. Sadly I shut them down mid game with good harass, coming out with double resource score, double workers, better upgrades and a stronger army, but no matter what I can never get an army to finish my opponent and when I try it ends up being an over commitment and I lose. When I play against terran or zerg I know when the game is over when I see their composition move across the map. When you know you have lost because you cannot hold that or produce an army to combat it in the time it takes them to get to your base, but I have never experienced a game end because my composition was better than my opponents, they just stick in the game, and rally bio in their main or try some sort of base trade. Am I doing something wrong? Because if I crush my opponent shouldn't I be able to obtain a composition that is capable of winning the game immediately after? I kid you not I lost a 40 minute game about an hour and a half ago having double the resource score of my terran opponent, because he could kite my archon / immortal army and land emps on my high temps before my feedback went off. The guy sat on 4 bases and I was up to 7. I have full upgrades researched 3-3-3 with charge blink and resonating glaives, I have speed shuttle and all tech paths open. The only thing I haven't experimented with was carriers and I only used the msc twice and that was against zerg. Oh and I don't utilize void rays or sentry force fields, I use sentrys for the bubble. If you are truly as far ahead as you claim in the mid game, why not try containing your opponent on their 3 base? Or if you can, take your 3 base advantage and contain them on 2 base. In addition it sounds like you suffer from micro woes. Here are some suggestions: 1.) Use Blink Stalekrs to get into their main, and focus fire add-ons, tech buildings, or workers. However the true goal is to break up your opponent's army and their focus. Which will allow you to hit the main army favorably with Storms/Disruptors and/or a good flank/surround. 2.) Storm harass can be quite simple and effective. 3.) Try 2 Adepts and 2 Zealots in a Prism vs Zerg. The Adepts focus fire workers while the Zealots target the Queen. 4.) Don't let your Zealots Charge too far ahead of your main army in direct fights. 5.) You can put your HTs in a Warp Prism to transport and protect them from EMPs. Also lets you quickly surprise Storm your opponent when they are not looking. 6.) Disruptors are proving difficult vs Terran. I suggest HTs in that match-up. 7.) Tempests aren't really needed in either match-up, unless your opponent is going mass air, however you can use them. Just make sure you don't get more than 4, or just enough to either 1 shot the Liberators, Tanks, or Broodlords (whatever that magic number is). Their real goal is to break up your opponents siege line as Tempest DPS is relatively average. Tempests also can help to force engagements and positions that favor you, not your opponent, if you are patent and meticulous. But you need to focus fire key targets with them because, as I said, their DPS is average. 8.) You can Shade Adepts to keep up with your Blink Stalkers when you want to press advantage in a fight. If done well you can even create a game ending surround on their retreating army. 9.) Adepts are good vs Tanks and Widow Mines and they can shade through siege lines. (Note: Tanks and Widow Mines do friendly Splash damage. Spread out your Adepts to abuse that.) I suggest you should watch Protoss streamers and how they deal with certain army compositions or positions on maps. It can give you great insight. If you want further help, post replays. | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
On January 02 2016 11:18 Hyper1 wrote: From what I've been told, against higher league players, ghost destroy HT, but Disruptors don't use energy so they're not vulnerable to that. The against, disruptors can't hit air targets like storm can, and they don't have feedback... Though I've also heard that Disruptors hit harder than storm, and I'm not sure if you can stack storms or not. storms dont stack fyi | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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Hyper1
158 Posts
1) Blink Micro, how do I do it? I can figure out how pro's can blink out low health stalkers so fast. By the time my stalkers get low on health, I try to click them and they just die. Is there a faster way to select them to get them out rather than just trying to click on them on screen. 2) How often should I be looking at my mini-map? I only glance at it from time to time, but I feel like I need to look more, just not sure how much more. 3) How do I use multiple spellcasters? Not even like complicated ones, but like blink stalkers AND disruptors? If I put them on one key, then I need to tab between them, but if I put them on 2 keys, they I have to click twice to move the entire army to disengage from battle. 4) Are adepts actually good for anything past light harass? They seem to do ok against small groups of light armored units, but anymore than like 1 on 1 and they seem to just get smashed. So they have a good part to play in an army composition? I've even tried using their upgrade and they still don't seem all that great. | ||
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TedBurtle
Belarus201 Posts
On January 04 2016 16:32 Hyper1 wrote: Ok guys, back with even more questions!!! 1) Blink Micro, how do I do it? I can figure out how pro's can blink out low health stalkers so fast. By the time my stalkers get low on health, I try to click them and they just die. Is there a faster way to select them to get them out rather than just trying to click on them on screen. 2) How often should I be looking at my mini-map? I only glance at it from time to time, but I feel like I need to look more, just not sure how much more. 3) How do I use multiple spellcasters? Not even like complicated ones, but like blink stalkers AND disruptors? If I put them on one key, then I need to tab between them, but if I put them on 2 keys, they I have to click twice to move the entire army to disengage from battle. 4) Are adepts actually good for anything past light harass? They seem to do ok against small groups of light armored units, but anymore than like 1 on 1 and they seem to just get smashed. So they have a good part to play in an army composition? I've even tried using their upgrade and they still don't seem all that great. 1) select stalker, press blink, blink behind the attacking line(not to far) blink another....Tips: you blink "low on shield", not "low on health" stalkers, the idea is- when you completely disengage, your survived stalkers regenerate shields, and you lost 0 health in your army. 2) Like 60-70% of the time, or know after scouting, timings you should be most aware (like one base minedrops at 4:30 etc.etc.) 3)If you put them in one key, disruptors will be main i think...so when you select, you will cast theyr spells, to blink just CNTRL+click stalker icon in the selection, or same with stalker on screen, or tab with all group selected, and blink... 4)yes. they tanky...if you need tankiness , and not some meele engage, adepts is good choise, they dont eat your own storms and disruptor shots | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On January 04 2016 10:07 darkness wrote: Are there any PvZ, PvT and PvP builds for LotV yet? I may come back to sc2 but I don't feel nice if I don't know what's up. I beat some platinum guy without knowing builds in PvP but I doubt I can reclaim masters league when I'm so much out of practice. Well, I still have my old micro, macro and APM at least. Are there no builds yet? | ||
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