On July 27 2017 23:29 ThaSlayer wrote: Coming back from WOL to LOTV. Does anyone still play mech in T v T?
Yeah mech is a very solid style in both TvZ and TvT. The difference between WOL mech and LotV mech is probably based on openers and stylistic play. For an example you now want to probably open Hellion Cyclone with Viking Double Raven support into later tank, hellbat viking (The hellbat is a morph of the hellion kind of like the viking but its basically a tankier and stronger version of it at the cost of mobility.) You no longer want to turtle 24/7 until you control all the map but typically when I play mech I try to defend only key areas and play greedy and try to tech fast. In my opinion the only time you go super turtle is vs another mech player. You only want to be 1(floating Rax)-5-1 until 10-12:00 because by then you want to start adding up to 4 more starports to go into ravens Before then I try to go for a +2 +2 mech timing push with my 4th base finishing. Vs a bio player if they haven't done significant damage to you, you'll likely just wipe them out. in game 5 of this series Gumiho busts out a pretty greedy and safe mech build against Ty. Luckily for you I have the build written down anyways Mech. Turtle for 2-2 if you didn't take lots of damage push. Otherwise try to transition into heavy raven (not mass)
Gumiho's TvT Mech Build
14 Depot 15 Gas 16 Refinery 19 Orbital 19 Reaper 1:44 20 CommandCenter 1:55 20 Factory 2:05 21 Refinery 2:06 21 ReactorRax (Swap with Factory ASAP) 2:18 22 Depot 2:39 24 Starport 2:46 24 x2 Hellion (constant) 2:56 29 Orbital 2:58 29 TechlabRax 3:25 36 Raven #1 3:29 38 Depot 3:40 40 Cyclone (1 Cyclone 1 Hellion) 3:52 47 Depot 4:14 50 Raven #2 4:53 Depotx2 4:56 Start 3rd CC 4:57 Double Refinery 5:10 Factory #2 (Queue 2 cyclones when you can from Fac#1) 5:16 Factory #3 (Starport makes reactor this factory takes techlab) 5:58 Double Armory 6:15-6:19 Refinery 5 and 6 Begin Double Depot Prod (Place Depots as a wall if you can) -----2x Tank 2x Viking 2x Hellion (Cyclones every 4-6 Hellions)----- 7:06 +1 +1 Vehicle Damage and Armor 7:10 Ebay 7:45 Double Sensor Tower 8:25 Double Factory (4 and 5) 8:45 Start 4th CC 8:48 Start Blueflame 9:00 +2 +2 9:15 Techlab and Reactor on new factories 9:30 Blind Missile Turrets ----@9:45 Gumiho hits with a +1 +1 Mech army-----
Notes: - 17 Scout - After Rax is done making add ons for factories lift it off for vision - If you do not push at +1 +1 wait for +2 +2 and use Hellions to Harass - Cyclones are made after a reactor factory has made 4-6 Hellions - Thors are added if they begin a viking army of their own - @13:00 Start x2 starports and go into either 4x viking 2x Liberator or 2x Raven 2x Viking
I prefer to open with a 1-1-1 marine/mine drop in TvZ.
But the problem is that it seems to be a build order loss against 2-base baneling busts since I need a defensive tank to hold those. Is there any way to modify the opener so that you can both put pressure on Zerg and hold baneling busts?
On August 02 2017 00:33 MockHamill wrote: I prefer to open with a 1-1-1 marine/mine drop in TvZ.
But the problem is that it seems to be a build order loss against 2-base baneling busts since I need a defensive tank to hold those. Is there any way to modify the opener so that you can both put pressure on Zerg and hold baneling busts?
Yeah, scout for a baneling nest and do TY's build from IEM Shanghai game 1 vs iAsonu
TvT is by far my worst matchup at my very low GM level but i feel that going mech versus bio relies a lot on your ability to respond to big concave attacks AND doom drops.
In this regard i think there's two options : -either you go for 4 medivacs full of hellbats : concave attacks can fail miserably against sieged tanks + BF hellbat drops, and if you get doom droped you can engage with the 4 medivacs to buy time for your tanks to get into position -either you continue raven production in the early stages of the game until reaching 5-6 of them : PDDs will greatly diminish the strength of any kind of big concave engage, while turrets absolutely BUTCHER doom drops. I've won a lot of TvTs just by casting 8 turrets under the medivacs boosting through my missile turrets.
The risk is playing against some "genius" going for bio with 2 medivacs then "straight into vikings". That means you need to build at least 3 to 4 cyclones when you scout it to prevent the vikings from chasing your ravens or medivacs into oblivion early game.
Returning player looking for knowledge applicable to hi masters+ level of play.
TvP: Is there any protoss composition, where use of widow mine is most optimal choice in army composition outside of first economy harass drop?
When liberators r good, against what, with what and in what numbers? Which side holds the advantage in late game? Does Terran still have to do some kind of economic dmg before letting the game to go to lategame? Deathball vs deathball or scattered fights considered optimal in late?
Tanks got a huge buff. Is their only use as defensive measure or 2-3base map based timings?
TvZ: Mines vs Tanks vs libs? When to use what is very blurry, hope you can enlighten me! =)
Both MUs: Mech has allways been considered inferior to other styles, but Thor + Tanks got rather big buffs. How things have changed?
Knowledgeable information is VERY much appreciated; you cut hours and hours of trial&error for me!
widow mines are still very strong against mass zealot, mass adept and mass phoenix, which are all common styles. liberators are basically a core mid-lategame unit against toss. you can still choose to play mass mobile bio, bio tank, bio ghost, viking against colossus, etc etc but liberators provide opportunities for very reliable timings as well as very stable defensive macro play which didn't exist in hots. several mines under liberators is also a strong counterplay for mass blink stalker snipes on liberators
in tvz WM are also very very strong against hots style lair tech 2/2 ling bane muta, but roach ravager infestor and fast hive are very common now and wm are not useful against those comps unless you want to do something like surprise midgame drops. against ultras you can play libs or ghosts
On August 02 2017 22:40 Ultrablue wrote: Returning player looking for knowledge applicable to hi masters+ level of play.
TvP: Is there any protoss composition, where use of widow mine is most optimal choice in army composition outside of first economy harass drop?
When liberators r good, against what, with what and in what numbers? Which side holds the advantage in late game? Does Terran still have to do some kind of economic dmg before letting the game to go to lategame? Deathball vs deathball or scattered fights considered optimal in late?
Tanks got a huge buff. Is their only use as defensive measure or 2-3base map based timings?
TvZ: Mines vs Tanks vs libs? When to use what is very blurry, hope you can enlighten me! =)
Both MUs: Mech has allways been considered inferior to other styles, but Thor + Tanks got rather big buffs. How things have changed?
Knowledgeable information is VERY much appreciated; you cut hours and hours of trial&error for me!
TvP Widows are really good vs Phoenix, Adept, Zealots and even Stalkers usually you chill them under the libs or by the army and kite units into them. As for liberators libs are awesome after 4-6 medivacs in TvP I go for either libs or vikings based on what my opponent has. Always get +2 ship weapons too, Vikings are stronger and libs 2 shot stalkers. and in the late game its typically a giant bio ball with skymech support (viking lib medivac) vs TheProtossCirclejerk of an army.
As for TvZ: Vs Lingbane : Widows add thors at 8:00 - 8:30 Unless they go hydras. If they go hydra ling bane its Siege tank widowmines. vs Roach ravager / Roach Hydra / Roach ravager hydra its 2-3 factory tank. and as for libs they can be used two ways. I personally like to wait for 5-6 medivacs and then I do 1 medivac 1 lib production so I can drop and lib harass. But when it hits late game you wanna add in lots of liberators (2-3 port 2 reactor 1 techlab) to help deal with ultralisks and zoning Zerg out.
And mech is very strong vs everything but protoss. Mech is strong vs Zerg and its very strong vs Terran if you know how to execute it. Personally in TvT Mech I follow the rule of never pushing until you have 2-2. Because, when the mech player reaches 2-2 they are very powerful and your attack should hit just before the Bio player is at 3-3.
At the low levels, around 4100 to 4300 MMR, generally speaking how does a bio player play against mech? I know the rule is to try and stay ahead in terms of upgrades and trade well but his Seige Tanks are just so damn strong. Drops are next to useless too now that Vikings are so powerful.
This is my most recent loss against mech and aside from the bad triple Medivac drop in the early game, I got no clue on what to do. Even in games where I don't attempt to drop, I'm still dead when I try to trade or pull their army apart and out of position.
On August 13 2017 13:16 geokilla wrote: At the low levels, around 4100 to 4300 MMR, generally speaking how does a bio player play against mech? I know the rule is to try and stay ahead in terms of upgrades and trade well but his Seige Tanks are just so damn strong. Drops are next to useless too now that Vikings are so powerful.
This is my most recent loss against mech and aside from the bad triple Medivac drop in the early game, I got no clue on what to do. Even in games where I don't attempt to drop, I'm still dead when I try to trade or pull their army apart and out of position.
Just going off ggtracker, your apm was very low and your opponent was very bad. He floated tons of mins and gas and took forever to get his 2nd and 3rd. Harrass more + expand more, simple as that. Little hit squads of maradaurs and marines are great because he can't cover everywhere at once.
When I vs mech I constantly attack and harrass the entire game while aggressively expanding. If you have higher income then taking worse trades isnt a big deal because mech is pretty bad if not in deathball. You can either slowly transition into BC or just keep pumping vikings and liberators while constantly using ur hit squads to hit his main nat and 3rd and delaying his 4th as long as humanly possible.
On August 14 2017 06:21 MockHamill wrote: If you have mass BC and go up against a mix of Carrier/Tempest/Void Ray in which order do you yamoto down the Protoss units?
Id do mass BC raven first off. But PDD for Tempests, Yamato for carriers and then just leave. Keep doing that cause you can avoid fighting the voids and just hit them for free.
On August 13 2017 13:16 geokilla wrote: At the low levels, around 4100 to 4300 MMR, generally speaking how does a bio player play against mech? I know the rule is to try and stay ahead in terms of upgrades and trade well but his Seige Tanks are just so damn strong. Drops are next to useless too now that Vikings are so powerful.
This is my most recent loss against mech and aside from the bad triple Medivac drop in the early game, I got no clue on what to do. Even in games where I don't attempt to drop, I'm still dead when I try to trade or pull their army apart and out of position.
Just going off ggtracker, your apm was very low and your opponent was very bad. He floated tons of mins and gas and took forever to get his 2nd and 3rd. Harrass more + expand more, simple as that. Little hit squads of maradaurs and marines are great because he can't cover everywhere at once.
When I vs mech I constantly attack and harrass the entire game while aggressively expanding. If you have higher income then taking worse trades isnt a big deal because mech is pretty bad if not in deathball. You can either slowly transition into BC or just keep pumping vikings and liberators while constantly using ur hit squads to hit his main nat and 3rd and delaying his 4th as long as humanly possible.
I'm in the same spot as Geokilla, I'm between dia3 and dia2, playing bio and struggling vs Mech. I'm not trying to be an asshole here, but this advice is not helpful at all. There's not one single specific point, only really generic advice (expand more, harrass more), and one comment about APM (which isn't that low tbh) that isn't helpful either.
I've only quickly checked the ggtracker, so here's my analysis of your game. Keep in mind that I'm at the same level as you are (if not worse) and face pretty much the same problems... So it might not be the best advice ! Anyway, my 2 cents: - Losing the dropships and marines for absolutely nothing puts you ridiculously behind. It's a that point in time where you want to posture and threaten exposed bases, force siege/unsiege by bouncing from main to third to nat, delay the third (and then the 4th) as much as possible and pounce if he makes any positioning mistake or if you can catch him unsieged. Losing those units meant he didn't feel threatened, could expand safely to his third and get his macro going. - At the time when he pushed, your army was still purely ground based except for 2 vikings (against his 11). Once he has that amount of tanks (almost 20), no amount of bio will help you anymore, you have to have air superiority. As soon as you feel that you can't prevent him from going above 5-8 tanks, you really have to start switching your composition and going for air. Also, marines are pretty useless at this point, except to catch his vikings when they're out of position, so don't make as many ! - Several times through the game, your army supply dropped while his didn't (at 12:30, 13:30, 14:20 and 14:40). I guess you took a few tank shots and retreated. While posturing and threatening him is good, try to avoid losing free units like that. Especially since you're already behind ! Maybe scan him, or send one marine in front of your army so you don't lose more than that one marine ? - You had lots of spare minerals, yet you didn't expand. Try to hide a base (could always come handy in case of base trade, especially since you aren't able to face his ground army), and get a 4th, a 5th even ! You have over 1k minerals in bank while not maxed out, this isn't acceptable: expand and/or add barracks (and starports !) - Economy-wise, you had less workers than him, you lost a few to harrass. Without seeing the replay I can't really give any specific advice on how to avoid losing SCVs to what he did to you. Just make sure to wall your third against helions and keep 1 medivac with units at your main/nat to handle drops quickly. Also, minimap awareness helps (having spotter marines, or even supply depots, a patrolling viking, anything so you have vision on the paths to your bases).
Basically, I would have tried to do the following: after losing the dropships, you had no way of threatening him and no way of avoiding him getting his dream, tank based army. I would have gambled on the fact that mech players tend to sit around to try and surprise him with an early air switch, while going nuts on expands. If he comes out at 120 supply, I'd be 100% dead for sure, but mech players tend to avoid those kinds of moveouts. And at least this gives you a chance to hold his maxed push with some marauders, a shit-ton of vikings and some liberators.
I'm really lost with the new way TvZ is played. First, I used to open 3rax reaper all game everygame so now that it's basically useless, what is a good opening nowadays?
Second, I'm also lost on what I should even do against the new hydra / ling / bane meta, both strategically and tactically!
On a strategic level, what should I do (tanks or mines?)? Should I turtle while harassing a bit (delaying fourth, drop at fourth and at main or whatever while building up an army?)? But with which composition (and at which supply) do I move out? 2-2 timing?
On a tactical level, I'm not really sure how I should micro / take fights in order to be cost effective, and especially what mistakes I should try to avoid.
[QUOTE]On August 23 2017 00:58 Poopi wrote: I'm really lost with the new way TvZ is played. First, I used to open 3rax reaper all game everygame so now that it's basically useless, what is a good opening nowadays?
Second, I'm also lost on what I should even do against the new hydra / ling / bane meta, both strategically and tactically!
On a strategic level, what should I do (tanks or mines?)? Should I turtle while harassing a bit (delaying fourth, drop at fourth and at main or whatever while building up an army?)? But with which composition (and at which supply) do I move out? 2-2 timing?
On a tactical level, I'm not really sure how I should micro / take fights in order to be cost effective, and especially what mistakes I should try to avoid.
Thanks in advance.[/QUOTE
Most people open with the 2-1-1 or Hellion banshee both openers you can find if you look em up or watch pro games
Strategically vs lingbane hydra you want to do either Marine Marauder medivac widow into multi prong drop harass with lib support or lib harass or you can do the alternative style of sitting back and when you get to about 6-7 tanks with your big bio army and +2 +2 you can do a big push vs them. Personally id do style 1 for the 2-1-1 and the tank timing with hellion banshee openers. I personally have been doing hellion banshee, the first timing I aim to go for is the 7:40 +1 +1 Hellbat timing and I follow it up with a +2 +2 6-7 tank push w/ my bio. The army compositions are generally just marine marauder medivac with widow/tank and lib support
Are there any decent Terrans who play ladder actively that can say how they stomp Zergs? I've played since WoL and I could beat Zergs fast under 15 mins in WoL and HotS but now since LotV and recently the only way I ever win is games like these that after endless battles the Zerg may lose after so many things but impossible to kill Zerg early.. And im mostly playing zergs.
This is usual TvZ for me either vs hydra bane, Lurkers.. air or bling, ulra. 3rd game is just bad but when you get outmassed by lings it's not like 'you had to kill Zerg early' ..
How are your attacks and things throughout the game, what do you do? I dont talk about resources because I was doing just fine in supply, it's more like how do you attack. I cant do much damage to Zerg early on.
I forgot the libs range here on g1 and 2 but this did not matter. And game one supply lead loss omg, this is where even lower players can win me. I hate TvZ more than TvP and my TvP is really good now.
On August 26 2017 21:19 Impc7r wrote: Are there any decent Terrans who play ladder actively that can say how they stomp Zergs? I've played since WoL and I could beat Zergs fast under 15 mins in WoL and HotS but now since LotV and recently the only way I ever win is games like these that after endless battles the Zerg may lose after so many things but impossible to kill Zerg early.. And im mostly playing zergs.
This is usual TvZ for me either vs hydra bane, Lurkers.. air or bling, ulra. 3rd game is just bad but when you get outmassed by lings it's not like 'you had to kill Zerg early' ..
How are your attacks and things throughout the game, what do you do? I dont talk about resources because I was doing just fine in supply, it's more like how do you attack. I cant do much damage to Zerg early on.
I forgot the libs range here on g1 and 2 but this did not matter. And game one supply lead loss omg, this is where even lower players can win me. I hate TvZ more than TvP and my TvP is really good now.
So I kind of just assume it is going to be lingbane hydra nowadays unless I specifically scout otherwise. The openers I do are usually quick 3CC builds with hellions and ravens. However just yesterday I played a game against my practice partner. Usually were around even but I stomped him really hard in this game that I was floating for too long to actually spend my money. http://ggtracker.com/matches/7157615 The only take away from this game is you should be out on the map while dropping with all of your army and if you cannot drop like I did then just use the ravens to harass, they are really good at that. Also the general strategy vs Lingbane hydra is to just kind of drop and clear creep (If you can do damage go ahead) while sitting back and waiting for +2 +2 and 6-7 tanks for your main push. Against lingbane muta you want to do Biomine with thor support (Rmbr vehicle armor) and Roach Ravager is just biotank (Few marauders) and finally vs the late game of Zerg you will start wanting to go into Tanks/Thors with some bio and mostly lib viking ghost. Do not make the mistake of going for lots of ghosts. People use to do that and would just die to Zerg.. Ghosts still suck but they are kind of needed :/ The ideal # you will want is about 10-12 if you need to go later then that go for mass raven viking battle cruiser. (Very rare, usually the mech late game) Anyways hope that helps
Actually TvZ is the matchup with which I struggle most as well. I'm not making it any easier on myself by playing with outdated builds (good ol' 16 marines stim double drop) but I'm actually too lazy to learn new builds. Also, I don't like mech at all, so I appreciate this build going straight into a metric-ton of bio. Basically I just use TvZ as a mechanics training, working on my macro and multitasking. Zergs tend to sit back and not harrass you as much as T's or P's, so it's a good matchup to practice offensive multitask since you don't really have to defend much... Just focus on production and harrass, until you either lose too much and he counters and you die, or you slow him enough so you can regroup and go for the kill. Poke continuously everywhere, there are always weakspots, and if he splits his units to defend everywhere, regroup and go kill a base. This does mean you need to have map control though, and limit creep as much as possible.
Sometimes I manage to overpower the zergs in the midgame like that, by doing more than them at more places (I always feel proud when I manage to kill the 4th with a drop, while doom dropping their main and having a liberator wrecking havok at their nat or third), sometimes I also get wins by defending badly executed all-ins. Most of the time though, I lose. Ling bane hydra hits hard... But at my humble level (dia2 now), macro-ing well (no mineral spike when fighting/dropping, constant production, no supply blocks, not forgetting upgrades, etc) + some limited multitasking is enough to keep me in the game. Obviously if I lose two dropships for little gain during the early/mid-game, I know it's over, but hey, it teaches me to be more careful/aware.
On August 29 2017 22:28 LoneYoShi wrote: Actually TvZ is the matchup with which I struggle most as well. I'm not making it any easier on myself by playing with outdated builds (good ol' 16 marines stim double drop) but I'm actually too lazy to learn new builds. Also, I don't like mech at all, so I appreciate this build going straight into a metric-ton of bio. Basically I just use TvZ as a mechanics training, working on my macro and multitasking. Zergs tend to sit back and not harrass you as much as T's or P's, so it's a good matchup to practice offensive multitask since you don't really have to defend much... Just focus on production and harrass, until you either lose too much and he counters and you die, or you slow him enough so you can regroup and go for the kill. Poke continuously everywhere, there are always weakspots, and if he splits his units to defend everywhere, regroup and go kill a base. This does mean you need to have map control though, and limit creep as much as possible.
Sometimes I manage to overpower the zergs in the midgame like that, by doing more than them at more places (I always feel proud when I manage to kill the 4th with a drop, while doom dropping their main and having a liberator wrecking havok at their nat or third), sometimes I also get wins by defending badly executed all-ins. Most of the time though, I lose. Ling bane hydra hits hard... But at my humble level (dia2 now), macro-ing well (no mineral spike when fighting/dropping, constant production, no supply blocks, not forgetting upgrades, etc) + some limited multitasking is enough to keep me in the game. Obviously if I lose two dropships for little gain during the early/mid-game, I know it's over, but hey, it teaches me to be more careful/aware.
It sounds like you're still playing old-school aggressive 4M against the new Hydra/Ling/Bane meta. That being the case, I'm not surprised you're losing most of your games since LBH is specifically designed to stop that sort of thing. Even at the pro level it's pretty rare for the Terran to just drop/parade push their way to victory against LBH. These days most people are going for a big Bio-Tank timing that hits right before the Ultralisk transition.
Alternatively, I have seen pros try 4M in a less committed eco-heavy style by going up to 80+ SCVs and continuously trading. It almost always ends in the lategame though, so unless your name is INnoVation or TY I wouldn't recommend trying it.
Where's the best place to obtain a good amount of replays (on ladder maps preferably) or free to view vods (Any good terran streamers who leave their vods viewable without subscription?). I'm an old mediocre terran (17 times masters lol) but I haven't really played since half way through hots, need a way to study builds/catch up on the meta. Any recommendations on builds/styles to copy (preferably not mech...) and what are the cheeses of the day that I need to watch out for? Just started coming back to the game and I'm sick of being stuck in diamond after being masters my entire sc2 "career" x.x
EPT
anyways Mech. Turtle for 2-2 if you didn't take lots of damage push. Otherwise try to transition into heavy raven (not mass)
