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I think the counter-intuitive thing is that tanks get less effective over time as their composition changes and actually make you more vulnerable.
You really only want tanks for the super early part of the game to deal with gateway units before they get the critical mass of robo units. By the time they get to 4 immortals, your getting next to no return on more tanks. Your actually better off flooding the map with hellions/hellbats while your teching and before they have storm.
It's a composition timing where say off a blink opening it goes like this for map control.
Blink -> tanks -> 4 immortals -> mass hellion -> Storm -> BC
So i guess what you can take away is looking to take some map control and apply pressure after a failed blink attack with your initial tanks. It'll make the rest of the game ALOT easier for you because you'll slow the protoss down
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i need some help man i dont know what unit comp to make with sky terran...in tvz mech its bc raven viking in tvt its raven viking but in tvp....wtf
http://spawningtool.com/30963/
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If you're talking about deathball / strongest firepower unit comp, it's bc raven, optional viking support and optional banshees (a combination of banshees / ghosts are needed to deal with HTs). Against carriers use 4-5 WMs.
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On September 07 2015 06:03 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
If you're talking about deathball / strongest firepower unit comp, it's bc raven, optional viking support and optional banshees (a combination of banshees / ghosts are needed to deal with HTs). Against carriers use 4-5 WMs.
why are you saying viking support is optional? And yes im talking about deathball/strongest unit comp, what am i aiming towards once i have 5 bases?
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On September 07 2015 05:33 EJK wrote:i need some help man i dont know what unit comp to make with sky terran...in tvz mech its bc raven viking in tvt its raven viking but in tvp....wtf http://spawningtool.com/30963/
It's 8 BC's and just push into one of their expansions yamoto'ing robo units. After that just go hellbat thor.
A handful of ravens are great vs things like tempests and can give a bit of buffer for your vikings if they do blink forwards to try and snipe things but 9 times out of 10 you wont need the ravens because you'll just kill them.
You should be able to push with BC's once you take your 4th base and attack into their 4th base. By that time you should have about 6-10 tanks a bunch of hellbats and 10 or so vikings
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On September 07 2015 05:33 EJK wrote:i need some help man i dont know what unit comp to make with sky terran...in tvz mech its bc raven viking in tvt its raven viking but in tvp....wtf http://spawningtool.com/30963/
Righto just watched the replay. I'm not sure what your having trouble with, you handled him perfectly in this game.
The only thing i'dd say is commit to hellbat thor viking earlier once you saw pheonix, because pheonix/collo or carriers/tempest are always what they tech into after it.
With a higher thor viking count ealier you could have just killed him if you took some scv's with your push to support and to just throw down some turrets as well with your army.
Theres really 2 different lategames. and the reason for it is this
Thors are amazing at all facets of TvP mech EXCEPT vs robo units. The BC's with yamoto snipes on robo units allow us to build them with impunity and kill them. If they skip robo units because they're trying to be sneaky with carriers or tempests or something else weird, just build thors and you'll win
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I had most succes with Tank, Viking, WM, Banshee, Ghost. If i can get a scan and snipe the observer, he can't see my banshees or Ghosts, i can EMP everything, and if he commits, Tanks shred his army, if he runs i can move forward and siege down one of his expansions.
If i see Phoenix Collossus with my WM drop and Marine poke, i just add instant a 2nd SP with Reactor to get massive amount of Vikings, got for WMs and Tanks and some Hellbats to tank, he can't engage, as he will lose all the Phoenix, so i can push him back, and easily siege his 3rd, from this point i can rally accross the map, as long as he doesn't get a flank or a sandwich move i can safely kill his 3rd and win from there.
tbh, i had NO success using Hellbats, Hellions, lots of Thor or BC, Raven. These Units just seem not to work for me.
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OK watching this replay, i'm a bit dubious about your build. You dont start a starport until 9:20, and you get pitte dup against a stargate opening. To try and transition into a comfortable midgame with this opening vs what he did is going to be disgustingly hard.
Now i know you dont like my build, but even with a 1rax expo and 2 fac, i still start a starport at 6minutes. The only time i dont is when i go up against twilight openings, so either DT or blink. I do this because i scan at 6minutes with my nats orbital and i abuse a protoss players lack of information. Protoss has to commit to a tech path, be it robo, stargate, twilight BEFORE they can see what the terran player is doing.
But the terran doesn't have to do this.
We can figure out what they're doing and taylor our response to it to get greedier, more aggressive an switch our tech into different things in response. Thats how we get our advantage in the early game, and how we carry it into the mid and lategame. By doing a 1 size fit's all build your harming your mid-game.
Vs this style of opening, i would do a mine drop to pressure, using it to see if he's committing to phoenix. If he does, it means i can instantly get my 2nd starport, and make units off 2 fac, 2 starport with an armory and get up for a big push at 14minutes to push him off a 4th base.
16minutes is far to late to put pressure on a protoss. I think in this game, if the protoss wasn't being so insanely greedy he could have had enough units out in time to actually just kill your army before you killed his expansion.
The tank push at the third was far to fast, with such a small viking count, and your turrets not ready to deal with the carriers it was doomed to fail.
The final BC push MAY have still won if you had yamoto and focused down your units, but you where in a very rough position leading up to that fight.
I am very pleased that your trying BC's now though 
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Same thing happens in this game, only this time he holds the 4th base. He should have counter attacked and won the game after killing your army like that.
If your seeing the pheonix immortal opening that he used, you can just do your old style an go viking banshee + ground support an push before he gets into carriers.
Your lategame comp isn't what you should be going for either, you have no real way to push into his expansions like that.
8 BC's is all you need with hellbat thor, and you got too many ravens.
You have to remember that tempests shoot slower then everything else, as a result they burn through far less PDD energy. You only really need 4 or so to completely take tempests out of the game, provided you dont over use your energy unnecessarily. You basically had no real way to kill his army, your air units just lasted forever.
But it's hard to tell if you where forced into that many ravens, or if you going for some money seeker missles.
Quick question, you know PDD doesn't stop interceptors right?
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On September 08 2015 20:06 Bodzilla wrote:Same thing happens in this game, only this time he holds the 4th base. He should have counter attacked and won the game after killing your army like that. If your seeing the pheonix immortal opening that he used, you can just do your old style an go viking banshee + ground support an push before he gets into carriers. Your lategame comp isn't what you should be going for either, you have no real way to push into his expansions like that. 8 BC's is all you need with hellbat thor, and you got too many ravens. You have to remember that tempests shoot slower then everything else, as a result they burn through far less PDD energy. You only really need 4 or so to completely take tempests out of the game, provided you dont over use your energy unnecessarily. You basically had no real way to kill his army, your air units just lasted forever. But it's hard to tell if you where forced into that many ravens, or if you going for some money seeker missles. Quick question, you know PDD doesn't stop interceptors right?
yes i know pdd doesn't stop interceptors. and against like 20 ravens your telling me i only need 4 ravens...?
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So i used BC now, and somehow it worked, but what do i do vs those huge amount of stalker in the late game? Do i need to switch onto Tanks again?
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6172892
Maybe someone can help me, it seems that i have sometimes enourmus trouble to transition and scout my opponent, as well as react and do my own transition in time:
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6172929
Tbh i have no clue what to go for. BC vs Tempest? I mean you said Tempest dont deal that massive amount of dmg vs BC as they were used to but they still do great damage and Feedback and Storm with Tempest deal with that. So i assume i need Viking Raven Ghost and maybe some BCs against the Immos? When do i need to transition? Tanks are very bad vs Immos, except you get the EMPs down, but still it's not that easy :/
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Solid OP, cool that you're trying unconventional builds and going against the grain in TvP, but realistically it's a scouting thing whereby you're operating under the assumption the build goes unscouted and you hit timings before the Protoss has the right pieces in place. In that respect it's a decent ladder build for variety, but doesn't seem consistent at the higher levels where the proper reactions are more inevitable and scouting is more frequent.
Reminds me of a game when Thorzain went mech in a TvP during one of the premiere tournaments, using Thors no less, and everyone went crazy thinking he shifted the meta. All the Protoss player had to do was scout the production and make any meaningful amount of immortals and it's lights out. I don't think mech is viable in TvP as a consistent build, but it's certainly a fun option for variety and it appears you're having fun with it so I guess that's all that matters.
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On September 09 2015 03:49 always_winter wrote:
Solid OP, cool that you're trying unconventional builds and going against the grain in TvP, but realistically it's a scouting thing whereby you're operating under the assumption the build goes unscouted and you hit timings before the Protoss has the right pieces in place. In that respect it's a decent ladder build for variety, but doesn't seem consistent at the higher levels where the proper reactions are more inevitable and scouting is more frequent.
Reminds me of a game when Thorzain went mech in a TvP during one of the premiere tournaments, using Thors no less, and everyone went crazy thinking he shifted the meta. All the Protoss player had to do was scout the production and make any meaningful amount of immortals and it's lights out. I don't think mech is viable in TvP as a consistent build, but it's certainly a fun option for variety and it appears you're having fun with it so I guess that's all that matters.
i will proove you wrong
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On September 09 2015 05:07 EJK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2015 03:49 always_winter wrote:
Solid OP, cool that you're trying unconventional builds and going against the grain in TvP, but realistically it's a scouting thing whereby you're operating under the assumption the build goes unscouted and you hit timings before the Protoss has the right pieces in place. In that respect it's a decent ladder build for variety, but doesn't seem consistent at the higher levels where the proper reactions are more inevitable and scouting is more frequent.
Reminds me of a game when Thorzain went mech in a TvP during one of the premiere tournaments, using Thors no less, and everyone went crazy thinking he shifted the meta. All the Protoss player had to do was scout the production and make any meaningful amount of immortals and it's lights out. I don't think mech is viable in TvP as a consistent build, but it's certainly a fun option for variety and it appears you're having fun with it so I guess that's all that matters. i will proove you wrong
If you use mech TvP (if you play in Leifeng Cup) and pull it off multiple times then that would be so amazing :O.
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On September 09 2015 09:07 BroskiDerpman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2015 05:07 EJK wrote:On September 09 2015 03:49 always_winter wrote:
Solid OP, cool that you're trying unconventional builds and going against the grain in TvP, but realistically it's a scouting thing whereby you're operating under the assumption the build goes unscouted and you hit timings before the Protoss has the right pieces in place. In that respect it's a decent ladder build for variety, but doesn't seem consistent at the higher levels where the proper reactions are more inevitable and scouting is more frequent.
Reminds me of a game when Thorzain went mech in a TvP during one of the premiere tournaments, using Thors no less, and everyone went crazy thinking he shifted the meta. All the Protoss player had to do was scout the production and make any meaningful amount of immortals and it's lights out. I don't think mech is viable in TvP as a consistent build, but it's certainly a fun option for variety and it appears you're having fun with it so I guess that's all that matters. i will proove you wrong If you use mech TvP (if you play in Leifeng Cup) and pull it off multiple times then that would be so amazing :O.
well ive won single games with it, but ya goal is to win multiple bo3's with macro mech and HOPEFULLY be allowed to participate in leifeng cup too although no one has given me an answer as to if i actually can or not..
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So finally i got a "good" game, where i scouted the transitino into Robo and HTs as well as Chargelots. So as OP said as soon as i got 6-8 Tanks i stop and go straight for Hellions and BC behind. It worked! Somehow, sure you need to scout, but i won without any ghosts! Amazing, i wonder what would have happened if i would have been able to sqeeze in 2-3 Ghosts!
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6173812
It would be very cool if you Bodzilla could watch through it, and give me some advice, i mean i won, yes, but i feel like i am missing so much stuff in TvP mech, which i could need to be able to go toe to toe with GM Protoss players!
Got a game where i rly had NO Chance what so ever. Any advice? pls
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6173891
got shrekt again :D YAY srsly so its no fun...
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6173905
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so the reason you won the first game was you were really far ahead from how you opened, and as a result that bought you plenty of time to get your bcs up and running. The problem with this in a game where you don't get extremely fortunate widow mines shots off is that protoss players can hit timing attacks and attack in multiple areas (immortal warp prism drops are a pain to deal with) and if they catch you during the long build time of the bcs, you can outright die.
I've given a good bit of thought of this myself and I think that if you aren't ahead when teching to bcs, you shouldn't tech to bcs and instead just up your ghost count and ground army. That way, you will be able to safely secure a 5th base and tech into air with no threat of dying to multiple warp prism/pylon/army poke attacks
your attack should have outright won but siege tanks out of position in the fight means stalkers dont have any opposition.
in the 2nd game you no longer have a build order advantage and instead, you have a build order disadvantage. And teching into sky on 2 bases....well it just doesn't work. general things that hurt are siege tank positioning, choice of build order, macro, buildnig placement, but those are all small compared to having an in correct game plan of tryign to tech to bcs on 2 bases, it's like trying to buy a sports car when you make 50k a year.
Reinforcing my previous theory of focusing on a large ground army first allows you to secure bases against protoss attacks such as these that can otherwise easily contain you on 2 bases.
After I see my opponent start air production like carriers or something, I know hes going to be investing into air so counter attacks, immortal attacks wont be very strong so I take the time to double expand whenever I see air to power up on economy. Otherwise against non-air rushes I will just max out on a ground mech ghost army so that I can more easily take my 4th and 5th bases (which you need to tech into any form of air, you will not get vrey far if you try to tech onto air with 3 bases either)
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in the 3rd game your siege tank positioning is still abysmal, and you pay dearly with that with unnesecary damage taken and also when you take your 3rd base, you have more then half your army not even defending your 3rd base.Also you cant support 5 factories on 2 bases either, its economics it just doesn't work
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Hm i thought my Tank position was ok, can you provide me some screenshots where they should have been and why? i tried, most of the time, to spread them, as long as i were on 2 bases, so that he doesnt find an opening to jump into me and kill me.
Do you have maybe some replays where your opponent goes so heavy aggressive with blink on you and you deal with it?
The problem with taking the 3rd for me is, if i use ALL my army, then he can just blink into my main <.< So i HAVE to spread, no?
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EPT
