On June 11 2014 08:54 LarDonG wrote: So nice job John !! But we have to keep in mind that Effort expected this kind of strategy, if we do this blindly on ladder we will be slightly behind economicly...
Nonono. As you see, you do an overlord scout at 6:00, which is a normal scout timing anyway. If it gets denied and you CANNOT get information, it's likely some kind of two-base play which the Terran is actively trying to deny scouting information of, in which case getting overlord speed and a blind roach warren is pretty safe. There is the possibility that your opponent is just hiding a very well-placed 3rd CC and he inefficiently built a few marines in order to deny the overlord, but we can assume you'll have good enough vision coverage and enough scouting info to rule that out most of the time.
If you scout normally at 6:00 and see normal stuff, just continue on with your normal strategy! Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough, but this build diverges heavily based on this very important timing.
On June 11 2014 07:48 mooseman1710 wrote: how can i transition this to ling bling muta if there is a bio followup? i guess evo chamber/bane nest timing would be the info needed. how many defensive roaches can we make before we are behind if he doesnt commit to a push?
Obviously, there aren't very super specific numbers yet, but transitioning into muta/ling/bling should be quite simple: add double evo, a baneling nest, and a spire while saturating your third base and taking a 4th as money allows.
On June 11 2014 10:57 Waise wrote:
On June 11 2014 08:54 LarDonG wrote: So nice job John !! But we have to keep in mind that Effort expected this kind of strategy, if we do this blindly on ladder we will be slightly behind economicly...
opening with defensive roaches has been seen at pro level before to defend hellion harass / be safe against blue flame / mindgame terran into expecting aggression. yes, it's less optimal economically, but that's the point of the patch. zerg has to invest more now to be safe. as a zerg player i think it's quite fair and i think roach openers can be quite standard now rather than being considered "behind". moonglade was saying the same on the proleague cast
To be honest, I actually don't think Zergs need to change their openings too drastically to deal with these new threats. After doing some talking with Jowj, we both agreed that the primary issues are simply: 1) getting a definite scout of a 3rd CC vs. 2-base pressure and 2) not being too greedy with gas. That said, any 2-base pressures that are scouted can easily be deflected with a 6:30 baneling nest/roach warren and necessary static defense (and delayed upgrades). 3-base dedicated pressure all comes after 10:00, and can be deflected easily with either roach/ling or ling/bling. For the latter, you simply need to make sure you have the amount of units necessary RIGHT AT 10:00 or you're going to get steamrolled by some of these new hellbat timings (most people wait until they see units walking across the map or until they see hellions transforming to start making units). It's possible that we MAY see a blind baneling nest before upgrades as kind of a safety net for earlier attacks, but I doubt Zergs will really need to deviate that much as long as they're scouting well.
Jowj believes it's possible to defend all 2-base pressure with earlier spines (~7:30-8:00) and ling/queen, but I'm a little bit skeptical of this one.
the bold is wrong.
http://www.twitch.tv/dragon/b/537754262 2:19:00 dedicated pressure that is hitting with 8 hellbats and 5 marines a full minute earlier than 10 minutes off of fast 3CC
First of all, that is a sick fucking build by Innovation. The fact that he has 3CCs and still hits at 9:00 with hellbats WITH STIM FINISHED and his upgrades already on the way and his additional barracks finished is...ridiculous.
So, with that, I'm willing to amend that number to 9:00, since that's about when the reaper/hellion/banshee poke hits as well. To be fair, I think pressure like this is easily thwarted if Zerg isn't too careless with their queens and doesn't skip out on a spine crawler (with ling/bling). I think the biggest issue for Life in this game was the fact that he was doing a counter pressure and had just morphed in 13 banelings and was unable to morph in more back at home. But 14 banes at home...yeah, this thing's gonna get shut down hard.
well, i just posted it as i was watching, innovation ends up doing these hellbat timings the following 2 games as well. THe biggest problem seems to be differentiating when hellbats are coming and when its just hellino pressure, because he doesn't add an armory until right before he moves out, a nd the difference between defending 8 hellions vs 8 hellbats + marine poke out is pretty huge
That's a good point. Part I of "Fuck Me, Hellbats are Strong" is over and now we're settling into the second part of it, which is "What is Difference Between Hellions and Hellbats? One Fucks With You While The Other One Fucks You Over".
Not entirely sure what can be done scouting wise...maybe we'll just have to start having a couple of roaches or banes ready just in case.
On June 11 2014 08:54 LarDonG wrote: So nice job John !! But we have to keep in mind that Effort expected this kind of strategy, if we do this blindly on ladder we will be slightly behind economicly...
Nonono. As you see, you do an overlord scout at 6:00, which is a normal scout timing anyway. If it gets denied and you CANNOT get information, it's likely some kind of two-base play which the Terran is actively trying to deny scouting information of, in which case getting overlord speed and a blind roach warren is pretty safe. There is the possibility that your opponent is just hiding a very well-placed 3rd CC and he inefficiently built a few marines in order to deny the overlord, but we can assume you'll have good enough vision coverage and enough scouting info to rule that out most of the time.
If you scout normally at 6:00 and see normal stuff, just continue on with your normal strategy! Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough, but this build diverges heavily based on this very important timing.
On June 11 2014 07:48 mooseman1710 wrote: how can i transition this to ling bling muta if there is a bio followup? i guess evo chamber/bane nest timing would be the info needed. how many defensive roaches can we make before we are behind if he doesnt commit to a push?
Obviously, there aren't very super specific numbers yet, but transitioning into muta/ling/bling should be quite simple: add double evo, a baneling nest, and a spire while saturating your third base and taking a 4th as money allows.
On June 11 2014 10:57 Waise wrote:
On June 11 2014 08:54 LarDonG wrote: So nice job John !! But we have to keep in mind that Effort expected this kind of strategy, if we do this blindly on ladder we will be slightly behind economicly...
opening with defensive roaches has been seen at pro level before to defend hellion harass / be safe against blue flame / mindgame terran into expecting aggression. yes, it's less optimal economically, but that's the point of the patch. zerg has to invest more now to be safe. as a zerg player i think it's quite fair and i think roach openers can be quite standard now rather than being considered "behind". moonglade was saying the same on the proleague cast
To be honest, I actually don't think Zergs need to change their openings too drastically to deal with these new threats. After doing some talking with Jowj, we both agreed that the primary issues are simply: 1) getting a definite scout of a 3rd CC vs. 2-base pressure and 2) not being too greedy with gas. That said, any 2-base pressures that are scouted can easily be deflected with a 6:30 baneling nest/roach warren and necessary static defense (and delayed upgrades). 3-base dedicated pressure all comes after 10:00, and can be deflected easily with either roach/ling or ling/bling. For the latter, you simply need to make sure you have the amount of units necessary RIGHT AT 10:00 or you're going to get steamrolled by some of these new hellbat timings (most people wait until they see units walking across the map or until they see hellions transforming to start making units). It's possible that we MAY see a blind baneling nest before upgrades as kind of a safety net for earlier attacks, but I doubt Zergs will really need to deviate that much as long as they're scouting well.
Jowj believes it's possible to defend all 2-base pressure with earlier spines (~7:30-8:00) and ling/queen, but I'm a little bit skeptical of this one.
the bold is wrong.
http://www.twitch.tv/dragon/b/537754262 2:19:00 dedicated pressure that is hitting with 8 hellbats and 5 marines a full minute earlier than 10 minutes off of fast 3CC
First of all, that is a sick fucking build by Innovation. The fact that he has 3CCs and still hits at 9:00 with hellbats WITH STIM FINISHED and his upgrades already on the way and his additional barracks finished is...ridiculous.
So, with that, I'm willing to amend that number to 9:00, since that's about when the reaper/hellion/banshee poke hits as well. To be fair, I think pressure like this is easily thwarted if Zerg isn't too careless with their queens and doesn't skip out on a spine crawler (with ling/bling). I think the biggest issue for Life in this game was the fact that he was doing a counter pressure and had just morphed in 13 banelings and was unable to morph in more back at home. But 14 banes at home...yeah, this thing's gonna get shut down hard.
well, i just posted it as i was watching, innovation ends up doing these hellbat timings the following 2 games as well. THe biggest problem seems to be differentiating when hellbats are coming and when its just hellino pressure, because he doesn't add an armory until right before he moves out, a nd the difference between defending 8 hellions vs 8 hellbats + marine poke out is pretty huge
That's a good point. Part I of "Fuck Me, Hellbats are Strong" is over and now we're settling into the second part of it, which is "What is Difference Between Hellions and Hellbats? One Fucks With You While The Other One Fucks You Over".
Not entirely sure what can be done scouting wise...maybe we'll just have to start having a couple of roaches or banes ready just in case.
Coming Soon: Hellbats Part III "When We Don't Build Hellbats, It Fucks With Your Mind, So When We Build Hellbats, You Go Fuck Me All Over Again"
I am pretty sure that in the Group Stage 3 of DH, the final game between JD and Bunny for Group F. JD did this build (or something similar) in games 1 and 3! Will post vods when they are up!
On June 16 2014 00:54 v0rtex wrote: I am pretty sure that in the Group Stage 3 of DH, the final game between JD and Bunny for Group F. JD did this build (or something similar) in games 1 and 3! Will post vods when they are up!
I had thought that was basically a roach opening on 3 bases, but I'll check to make sure. Jaedong has been doing a lot of these roach openers with a lot of counterattacks to force the Hellions to stay home, so maybe that's a potential way to deal with these attacks.
I thought so too but it just seemed like he got his 3rd at around the same time as this build (~7:15) instead of the normal 6:10-6:30 and also the RW/Evo chamber and in game 3 he also got the ovie speed when denied scouting but I could definitely be wrong. Will look at the vods when they are released!
Sorry for being plat but is scouting @6:00 and seeing a barrack+tech lab upgrading something with a factory+reactor producing hellions considered standard play?
I'm having difficulty deciding to effort build or not to effort build @ the 6min mark because I'm completely paranoid now then I would usually end up behind economically. Seeing the building config that I just said, should I go effort build if my overlord poke @6:00 got denied halfway and was not able to spot a 3rd CC?
On June 19 2014 11:09 Reki wrote: Sorry for being plat but is scouting @6:00 and seeing a barrack+tech lab upgrading something with a factory+reactor producing hellions considered standard play?
I'm having difficulty deciding to effort build or not to effort build @ the 6min mark because I'm completely paranoid now then I would usually end up behind economically. Seeing the building config that I just said, should I go effort build if my overlord poke @6:00 got denied halfway and was not able to spot a 3rd CC?
That's a pretty standard setup (reactor/techlab + fact/reactor), sometimes with a starport. In general, the only time you should really be doing the Effort build is if you really feel like something is up, and, in particular, if there isn't a 3rd CC. Effort's build delays the 3rd hatchery in favor of faster tech, which, in general helps you out A LOT for dealing with 2-base pressure builds like CS timings, BFH hellion timings, early hellbat timings, widow mine drops, etc. If you're finding yourself falling behind a lot in most of your games, just fall back to normal 3-hatch play. If you find yourself dying a lot to 2-base pressures, go back into the replays and see if there's some kind of tell ~6:00 that could have alerted you.
As a terran player having lot of easy wins in plat league with the hellbat lately, there are a few things I would like to point out :
1 - what Maru did (hellbat+banshee) is counterred by roaches but do roaches really counter the hellbat+medivacs variation ?. See Flash vs Rogue merry go round. In this particular case, it seems that banelings are a better counter cause when you have 3 medivacs above your hellbats roaches can't do anything....
2 - when you do this build as a terran you are very delayed cause a lot of your minerals goes into hellions instead of scv. Flash has 30 scv at 9'30 which is very low when you started with reaper expand... so a zerg shouldn't be afraid of getting a late B3...
3 - Don't worry about your transition cause if you deflect this attack, the terran will be behind both economically and technologically
4 - about scouting : ofc seeing no B3 is important, but you may have a tell already is you see only one reaper (compare to the usual 2-3 reaper into facto reactor) or an early second gaz
In conclusion, to me, the hellbat build is the equivalent of your roach baneling all-in, Zergs have to allways scout and adapt to this build just as terrans have to always scout and adapt for roach baneling.
The funny part being that from now on when you'll see your zerg opponent on 2 base with a roach warren you won't know if he wants to all in or if he's scarred of hellbats
hope this isn't too clueless, as I said I m just a plat terran...
On June 19 2014 17:24 Gwavajuice wrote: As a terran player having lot of easy wins in plat league with the hellbat lately, there are a few things I would like to point out :
1 - what Maru did (hellbat+banshee) is counterred by roaches but do roaches really counter the hellbat+medivacs variation ?. See Flash vs Rogue merry go round. In this particular case, it seems that banelings are a better counter cause when you have 3 medivacs above your hellbats roaches can't do anything....
2 - when you do this build as a terran you are very delayed cause a lot of your minerals goes into hellions instead of scv. Flash has 30 scv at 9'30 which is very low when you started with reaper expand... so a zerg shouldn't be afraid of getting a late B3...
3 - Don't worry about your transition cause if you deflect this attack, the terran will be behind both economically and technologically
4 - about scouting : ofc seeing no B3 is important, but you may have a tell already is you see only one reaper (compare to the usual 2-3 reaper into facto reactor) or an early second gaz
In conclusion, to me, the hellbat build is the equivalent of your roach baneling all-in, Zergs have to allways scout and adapt to this build just as terrans have to always scout and adapt for roach baneling.
The funny part being that from now on when you'll see your zerg opponent on 2 base with a roach warren you won't know if he wants to all in or if he's scarred of hellbats
hope this isn't too clueless, as I said I m just a plat terran...
you point out flash's worker count, but you fail to compare it to maru's. when maru's attack hit he had ~35 workers, flash cut at 23 and was more all-in with his build than maru. rogue's micro was also very bad in the fight, he engaged with queens before roaches and walked them into hellbat fire for no reason. he needed to kite and spread better. a forward spore near the natural hatch to zone medivacs wouldn't have been a bad idea either
there are some big problems with baneling defense. one of them is that they're fragile suicide units and if they get focused down by marines or there's a bad detonation you lose a unit for absolutely nothing. a roach will always put up a fight and has more micro potential, you can transfuse them, etc. etc.
as for not being sure whether roaches indicate an allin, the hellbat patch doesn't change anything about that. roaches for defense and mindgames existed before hellbats and always required active hellion scouting to verify the amount of pressure coming
as for not being sure whether roaches indicate an allin, the hellbat patch doesn't change anything about that. roaches for defense and mindgames existed before hellbats and always required active hellion scouting to verify the amount of pressure coming
I love Mindgame roaches . My favorite thing in the world is for a Terran to freak out and build 3 bunkers and pull there scvs on seeing a few roaches.
as for not being sure whether roaches indicate an allin, the hellbat patch doesn't change anything about that. roaches for defense and mindgames existed before hellbats and always required active hellion scouting to verify the amount of pressure coming
I love Mindgame roaches . My favorite thing in the world is for a Terran to freak out and build 3 bunkers and pull there scvs on seeing a few roaches.
Eh, if you're going to do mindgame Roaches, it's probably much more efficacious in terms of effort versus reward to go Hyun-style 1-1 Roach timing into 3 base Roach-Hydra 2-2 timing into Roach-Hydra-Viper-Swarmhost. The Hyun timing is lethal if not prepared for with Tanks and Bunkers, and the follow-up 2-2 timing absolutely wrecks a 3rd base that is too greedy on the map. Adequate defense against drop play puts you in a really nice situation. Plus, there's the fact that a dedicated Roach allin already wrecks most Hellbat plays, and this 1-1 timing is less allin with a similar power level thanks to the upgrades.
as for not being sure whether roaches indicate an allin, the hellbat patch doesn't change anything about that. roaches for defense and mindgames existed before hellbats and always required active hellion scouting to verify the amount of pressure coming
I love Mindgame roaches . My favorite thing in the world is for a Terran to freak out and build 3 bunkers and pull there scvs on seeing a few roaches.
Eh, if you're going to do mindgame Roaches, it's probably much more efficacious in terms of effort versus reward to go Hyun-style 1-1 Roach timing into 3 base Roach-Hydra 2-2 timing into Roach-Hydra-Viper-Swarmhost. The Hyun timing is lethal if not prepared for with Tanks and Bunkers, and the follow-up 2-2 timing absolutely wrecks a 3rd base that is too greedy on the map. Adequate defense against drop play puts you in a really nice situation. Plus, there's the fact that a dedicated Roach allin already wrecks most Hellbat plays, and this 1-1 timing is less allin with a similar power level thanks to the upgrades.
But You don't get the smug feeling that you tricked your opponent when you do the hyun build.
EPT
and i think roach openers can be quite standard now rather than being considered "behind". moonglade was saying the same on the proleague cast
