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United States4883 Posts
On August 28 2014 17:30 DERASTAT wrote:
I am using this build but i wonder when you can get those mass queens for the super silly queen corrupter zergling timing?
I'm not entirely sure, (meaning this is not 100% for sure accurate), but I THINK, in order to do that timing, you skip the roach warren and start building queens 2 at a time around 8:00, giving you a total of 11 (3 to inject and 8 to attack) queens by ~11:00. Then you just mass ling/corruptor from there. You can probably narrow it down from there.
Of course, I think this is primarily in response to scouting stargate, as you know you can delay the roach warren for a bit (unless you get WP cannon rushed by someone like Zest kekekeke).
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does this muta midgame style not feed into the hands of protoss who aim for 3 base blink stalker play?
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On September 10 2014 01:07 Mojito99 wrote:
does this muta midgame style not feed into the hands of protoss who aim for 3 base blink stalker play?
You dont have to go Muta. You can also go Ling Infestor with Ultralisks later on or a Ling Hydra Timing. Both of these are very strong against 3 Base Blinkstalker, especially with the Double Upgrades for the Lings. You can go from this into Swarmhosts too if you like.
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United States4883 Posts
On September 10 2014 01:07 Mojito99 wrote:
does this muta midgame style not feed into the hands of protoss who aim for 3 base blink stalker play?
Not necessarily, it's part of a bigger metagame shift. In order to explain, let me give some background. I spent some time watching every ZvP from April to September recently as a part of a project I'm working on, and there are some definite shifts in the meta game as time goes on.
1) Jumping back to early 2014, that was about the time that classic phoenix/colossus was starting to die off and players were starting to play around more with the voidray/archon/chargelot styles or VR/colossus. Either way, it was still pretty greedy and turtly, designed to get Protoss into the late game where Zergs tended to struggle on the smaller maps.
2) So, taking advantage of the fairly small maps, Zergs were coming up with all kinds of builds to bust the third base, and this mainly had to do with being VERY greedy in the early game. Originally, these were just big 3-base pressures with minimal upgrades, but then Zerg players started to hit slightly later timings (roach/hydra/viper comes to mind) off of 4 bases, which hit even stronger and greedier.
3) Metagame always revolves around anti-timings. If you can crush the timing your opponent sets up all game long, your opponent no longer sets the precendent for the flow of the game, and you can easily roll over the rest of your opponent's game plan until they adapt. For this purpose, Protoss players began doing the 3-base blink/gateway all-ins. These builds would punish the Zergs who were really greedy in taking their fourth base and skipping a lot of units to get out lair tech. On top of this, Protoss players also began to expand much sooner (from ~9:30 as the average to 7:30 as the average). This is also the time period in which oracle openings developed.
4) Zergs were dying a lot to these blink builds, so this double upgraded ling build came back really popularly. In addition, Zergs started building ~12+ roaches before taking their 4th, and soO, in particular, would typically double expand to quickly catch up in the gas income. This is a very simple tweak to make in-game: if you scout blink and 6-8 gateways with your overseer scout on 3 bases, you can just save up larva and make a swell of roaches before taking additional bases and starting with your lair tech. The latest addition is the revival of the "roach max" strategy which Shine in particular is doing a lot. 3 gases and lots of roaches shuts down this attack hard and actually makes it quite difficult for the Protoss to defend with no robo units.
So, as you can, the blink timings were not a response to muta builds in particular (although they did help to dent them because Zergs couldn't just bank 1000 gas very early). Blink builds are designed to keep the Zerg honest and keep them from playing too greedy, but this particular build (with the right adjustments) does quite well against them and transitions well into muta/ling.
In my experience, if you're struggling, I highly suggest doing what soO does: DO NOT BUILD a macro hatchery until you have five bases. In other words, your 4th hatchery should be your 4th base, not a macro hatchery, same for 5th. If your creep spread and injects are good and you're responding correctly to what you're scouting, you either defend any attacks and get a HUGE gas boost very quickly or you use your hatchery as a giant Point Defense Drone while you prepare to defend elsewhere.
Anyways, hopes this helps some!
EDIT: Also, what speedy said ^. There are a lot of different branches, and this opening can honestly transition into just about anything.
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Sick post. I love your tutorials. Time to ling some protoss xD
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YES! This build! Came here to check details, thanks.
This is a beautiful thing, you get early gas to defend any sort of early agression, so you can diverge to emergency defense without much trouble. Then soO gets a roach warren, but quite often just makes a few roaches or none at all!
Again, if protoss just makes a ton of gates and go for it, he does have a roach warren, otherwise he secures map control or pressure third base with 1/1 lings if protoss is greedy, with that he is ready to get any tech he needs and a 4th and 5th ♥
Many people (from articles and LR), including me, agree that soO is a player with no clear weaknesses in his playstyle. This build is just that, its just safe, but it sets everything to a point where protoss made a tech choice and zerg can respond with whatever he needs 
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5am here and I can't sleep. Guess it's a perfect time to watch those Zest vs soO VODs you have linked in preparation for GSL in 6 hours!
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This build just doesn't work for what it is meant for. Even when you scout 4 gates, you scout pylon, you scout everything, but defending 4 gate with it is impossible.
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On July 05 2015 06:37 Juny1spion wrote:
This build just doesn't work for what it is meant for. Even when you scout 4 gates, you scout pylon, you scout everything, but defending 4 gate with it is impossible.
Nothing is impossible, add banelings and a few spine crawlers + micro well, this is a nice guide written by John.
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On July 05 2015 06:54 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 06:37 Juny1spion wrote:
This build just doesn't work for what it is meant for. Even when you scout 4 gates, you scout pylon, you scout everything, but defending 4 gate with it is impossible. Nothing is impossible, add banelings and a few spine crawlers + micro well, this is a nice guide written by John.
Umm adding banelings is pretty bad choice, good luck with defending 3rd with your spine crawler when your 3rd isn't done yet and there is no creep. Nice written guide, good build, but the swell of lings is useless and making 8 drones instead is way better.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 05 2015 06:37 Juny1spion wrote:
This build just doesn't work for what it is meant for. Even when you scout 4 gates, you scout pylon, you scout everything, but defending 4 gate with it is impossible.
1-base or 2-base 4-gate? You can clean up both with just mass ling/queen and a few spines if you can afford it. For a 1-base 4-gate, abort the 3rd hatchery and opt for spine crawlers in your natural, spamming lings as soon as possible (~5:00). For a 2-base version, just make sure you flood lings when your first larva pops at around 6:00 and pull a queen to the 3rd and you should do decently. In fact, you can build a round of lings anytime your opponent goes FE -> 3+ gates with that first inject and counter it fairly nicely. Otherwise, the drones are a better choice ^^.
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any1 tried this build on the new maps?
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On July 05 2015 17:58 A_Scarecrow wrote:
any1 tried this build on the new maps?
I've been reeeally trying to use this build and don't just take it from me on this, but I have almost literally zero success with it in the current ZvP metagame, Zergling heavy styles seem totally ineffective in this blink stalker/sentry meta, yea you have lots of Zerglings with 1/1 but they can't even scratch the stalkers once they have blink and an adequate number of sentries, and by that time, Roaches are ineffective as well.
Honestly Zerg just sucks vs. Protoss right now in general, very difficult match up to play, maybe if you can multitask well enough to consistently force cancels on their third or just constantly poke and prod to bait FF, but every FF baited is usually Zerglings lost.
Seriously though, you try it and get back to me, if you find it working for you then I would love to know if someone else could make this work, it's a pretty old build honestly it was kind of popular awhile ago but fell out of favor reeally fast.
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On July 05 2015 10:12 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 06:37 Juny1spion wrote:
This build just doesn't work for what it is meant for. Even when you scout 4 gates, you scout pylon, you scout everything, but defending 4 gate with it is impossible. 1-base or 2-base 4-gate? You can clean up both with just mass ling/queen and a few spines if you can afford it. For a 1-base 4-gate, abort the 3rd hatchery and opt for spine crawlers in your natural, spamming lings as soon as possible (~5:00). For a 2-base version, just make sure you flood lings when your first larva pops at around 6:00 and pull a queen to the 3rd and you should do decently. In fact, you can build a round of lings anytime your opponent goes FE -> 3+ gates with that first inject and counter it fairly nicely. Otherwise, the drones are a better choice ^^.
Sangate, or 2 base 4g. Even when you do your lings blindly, you scout excatly where the pylon is, the lings pop out around when the warp gate research finish, so when your lings start attacking pylon he warp ins 4 zealots and that's basically the end since you have worse eco than P.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 06 2015 08:16 Juny1spion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 10:12 SC2John wrote:On July 05 2015 06:37 Juny1spion wrote:
This build just doesn't work for what it is meant for. Even when you scout 4 gates, you scout pylon, you scout everything, but defending 4 gate with it is impossible. 1-base or 2-base 4-gate? You can clean up both with just mass ling/queen and a few spines if you can afford it. For a 1-base 4-gate, abort the 3rd hatchery and opt for spine crawlers in your natural, spamming lings as soon as possible (~5:00). For a 2-base version, just make sure you flood lings when your first larva pops at around 6:00 and pull a queen to the 3rd and you should do decently. In fact, you can build a round of lings anytime your opponent goes FE -> 3+ gates with that first inject and counter it fairly nicely. Otherwise, the drones are a better choice ^^. Sangate, or 2 base 4g. Even when you do your lings blindly, you scout excatly where the pylon is, the lings pop out around when the warp gate research finish, so when your lings start attacking pylon he warp ins 4 zealots and that's basically the end since you have worse eco than P.
At that point it just comes down to micro . You should be able to hold off the pressure with queens/speedlings, especially if you keep a small subgroup pressuring the pylon and forcing the Protoss player to keep 3-4 zealots there to protect it. I don't have a recent example, but there have been quite a few games of Zerg players defending this pressure with pure ling/queen, even a Life game a while back where he didn't even get ling speed.
As far as how this works in the current meta, I can't really comment, but I doubt it works against the fast 3-base blink stalker builds just because of how safe 3-base openers from Protoss have become. The original idea behind this build was to allow Zerg to gain early control of the map and really shut down Protoss greed while pulling ahead in economy and transitioning, but since transitions, particularly to swarm host (which hard countered colossus-less styles), are quite a bit weaker than they used to be. My advice is to copy more recent games ^^.
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On July 06 2015 09:09 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 08:16 Juny1spion wrote:On July 05 2015 10:12 SC2John wrote:On July 05 2015 06:37 Juny1spion wrote:
This build just doesn't work for what it is meant for. Even when you scout 4 gates, you scout pylon, you scout everything, but defending 4 gate with it is impossible. 1-base or 2-base 4-gate? You can clean up both with just mass ling/queen and a few spines if you can afford it. For a 1-base 4-gate, abort the 3rd hatchery and opt for spine crawlers in your natural, spamming lings as soon as possible (~5:00). For a 2-base version, just make sure you flood lings when your first larva pops at around 6:00 and pull a queen to the 3rd and you should do decently. In fact, you can build a round of lings anytime your opponent goes FE -> 3+ gates with that first inject and counter it fairly nicely. Otherwise, the drones are a better choice ^^. Sangate, or 2 base 4g. Even when you do your lings blindly, you scout excatly where the pylon is, the lings pop out around when the warp gate research finish, so when your lings start attacking pylon he warp ins 4 zealots and that's basically the end since you have worse eco than P. At that point it just comes down to micro . You should be able to hold off the pressure with queens/speedlings, especially if you keep a small subgroup pressuring the pylon and forcing the Protoss player to keep 3-4 zealots there to protect it. I don't have a recent example, but there have been quite a few games of Zerg players defending this pressure with pure ling/queen, even a Life game a while back where he didn't even get ling speed. As far as how this works in the current meta, I can't really comment, but I doubt it works against the fast 3-base blink stalker builds just because of how safe 3-base openers from Protoss have become. The original idea behind this build was to allow Zerg to gain early control of the map and really shut down Protoss greed while pulling ahead in economy and transitioning, but since transitions, particularly to swarm host (which hard countered colossus-less styles), are quite a bit weaker than they used to be. My advice is to copy more recent games ^^.
Micro what? As I said, you have so bad eco that Protoss can just outmass you with zealots and lings are just super-inefficent against them. If you keep pressuring the pylon with a small subgroup, those are just missing lings in the fight and Protoss doesn't really need having even 3 zealots there so those are just lings for nothing. OF COURSE Sangate isn't unbeatable and some Zergs defend it, but not with this build.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 07 2015 02:20 Juny1spion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 09:09 SC2John wrote:On July 06 2015 08:16 Juny1spion wrote:On July 05 2015 10:12 SC2John wrote:On July 05 2015 06:37 Juny1spion wrote:
This build just doesn't work for what it is meant for. Even when you scout 4 gates, you scout pylon, you scout everything, but defending 4 gate with it is impossible. 1-base or 2-base 4-gate? You can clean up both with just mass ling/queen and a few spines if you can afford it. For a 1-base 4-gate, abort the 3rd hatchery and opt for spine crawlers in your natural, spamming lings as soon as possible (~5:00). For a 2-base version, just make sure you flood lings when your first larva pops at around 6:00 and pull a queen to the 3rd and you should do decently. In fact, you can build a round of lings anytime your opponent goes FE -> 3+ gates with that first inject and counter it fairly nicely. Otherwise, the drones are a better choice ^^. Sangate, or 2 base 4g. Even when you do your lings blindly, you scout excatly where the pylon is, the lings pop out around when the warp gate research finish, so when your lings start attacking pylon he warp ins 4 zealots and that's basically the end since you have worse eco than P. At that point it just comes down to micro . You should be able to hold off the pressure with queens/speedlings, especially if you keep a small subgroup pressuring the pylon and forcing the Protoss player to keep 3-4 zealots there to protect it. I don't have a recent example, but there have been quite a few games of Zerg players defending this pressure with pure ling/queen, even a Life game a while back where he didn't even get ling speed. As far as how this works in the current meta, I can't really comment, but I doubt it works against the fast 3-base blink stalker builds just because of how safe 3-base openers from Protoss have become. The original idea behind this build was to allow Zerg to gain early control of the map and really shut down Protoss greed while pulling ahead in economy and transitioning, but since transitions, particularly to swarm host (which hard countered colossus-less styles), are quite a bit weaker than they used to be. My advice is to copy more recent games ^^. Micro what? As I said, you have so bad eco that Protoss can just outmass you with zealots and lings are just super-inefficent against them. If you keep pressuring the pylon with a small subgroup, those are just missing lings in the fight and Protoss doesn't really need having even 3 zealots there so those are just lings for nothing. OF COURSE Sangate isn't unbeatable and some Zergs defend it, but not with this build.
Let me make this clear: this is an old build which really doesn't have much relevance to modern games. I have no idea why this build was brought up again.
The Sangate and other early pressures are not unbeatable, and always come down to micro. If you want to make it easier on yourself, simply do not take an early third base if you scout a 10-gate/sangate; it's that simple. There are very very few other ways to allocate money for ling speed, queens, and 3 bases and somehow be in a better position to defend against a 6:00 timing. In terms of standard macro games, this build was my go-to build because it dealt with most early aggression fairly well while transitioning into a solid mid game; this does not mean it was safe 100% of the time against everything no matter what.
If you're having trouble against early pressures that you can't defend with micro, especially in the current metagame, don't use this build. Okay?
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On May 14 2014 11:10 SC2John wrote:
So, as many people may have noticed, I reference this build a lot in the Zerg Help Me Thread because I think it's pretty safe and plays out pretty easily;
For this build, it's actually not that important to find the early probe as the ling swell at 6:00 is designed to hold off any pressure coming your way.
This build allows you to auto-pilot a lot of the decisions you would normally have to make like whether or not to make lings vs. warpgate pressure, how much to make, when to stop droning, how to defend 2-base all-ins, etc., by simplifying it and allowing you to "overreact" to some degree without the incredibly painful side effects.
Okay! sorry, by this I thought the lings should counter the common Sangate "easily" as you wrote
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On July 05 2015 06:58 Juny1spion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 06:54 GGzerG wrote:On July 05 2015 06:37 Juny1spion wrote:
This build just doesn't work for what it is meant for. Even when you scout 4 gates, you scout pylon, you scout everything, but defending 4 gate with it is impossible. Nothing is impossible, add banelings and a few spine crawlers + micro well, this is a nice guide written by John. Umm adding banelings is pretty bad choice, good luck with defending 3rd with your spine crawler when your 3rd isn't done yet and there is no creep. Nice written guide, good build, but the swell of lings is useless and making 8 drones instead is way better.
vs a heavy zealot aggressive / all in it works, vs Sentry / Stalker it doesn't / shouldn't.
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EPT
