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United States4883 Posts
So, as many people may have noticed, I reference this build a lot in the Zerg Help Me Thread because I think it's pretty safe and plays out pretty easily; however, apparently a lot of people don't know the actual details of this build, so I decided to write it out not only for my own improvement, but also so that I can reference people to it. soO has been using this opening quite a bit in the last month or two and it seems to be the key to his success in ZvP (of course, along with his abusive muta/corruptor play as well). So without further ado, I give you the double upgraded ling opening.
VoDs:
soO vs. Zest G2 on Habitation Station
soO vs. Zest G3 on Heavy Rain
soO vs. Zest G5 on Alterzim Stronghold
The Build:
9 overlord
**10 drone scout**
15 hatch
17 gas
17 pool
17 overlord
@100% pool, double queen and Zerglings x2
@100 gas, start zergling speed
After starting speed, pull two drones off gas
26 overlord
32 3rd hatchery (~5:15)
Benchmark: When starting your 3rd, you should have 32 supply with two queens and about 26 drones.
32 overlord
40 overlord
When first larva pops, make a swell of lings (~8 sets)
@6:00, overlord scout
@6:30, put two drones back in gas
@100% 3rd hatch, build 3rd and 4th queens
@7:00, start double evo and 2nd gas
@100% evos, start +1 melee and +1 carapace (7:45)
@100 gas, start lair (~8:15)
@8:30, build roach warren and 3rd and 4th gases
Benchmark: @9:30, you should be on 60 drones with four gases and about 30-40 lings. Lair and roach warren finish at the same time.
This particular build order is taken from G2 on Habitation Station. While soO does go for double upgraded lings in both G3 on Heavy Rain and G5 on Alterzim, the build is altered a lot to be greedier and/or more economical (such as skipping early speed, etc.). The build order presented here is the safest and most reliable build order for ladder purposes.
soO drone scouts on Habitation Station. This allows him to know for certain if his opponent is going for a gateway expand or a FFE and allows him to be extra greedy based on that information, evidenced by the 17 gas, 17 pool that follow. The much later third of this build makes it a little less susceptible to early gateway pokes as well as allowing the Zerg a little more breathing room from potential cannon rushes. This also balances out the earlier ling speed and allows you to comfortably use all of your larva as it pops out.
For this build, it's actually not that important to find the early probe as the ling swell at 6:00 is designed to hold off any pressure coming your way. In addition, because your goal is ultimately to go +1/+1 upgrades, the ling swell at 6:00 is actually useful for defending 2-base pressures that move out three minutes later at 9:00-9:30. Most Zerg players face the challenge of overreacting against early pressure and end up with a lot of useless units, but this build naturally defends early warpgate pressure that hits at 6:00-7:00 while also giving your lings extended value for later in the game.
This ling swell also makes it a lot easier to poke at the front and glean your opponent's composition while also scouting the main with an overlord at 6:00-6;30. Creating extreme pressure to defend at the front often means the overlord goes unhindered in its scouting and can usually give you a solid idea of what your opponent is going.
The decision tree before 10:00 revolves around two major decisions:
- What is my opponent's tech (6:00-6:30)?
- If robo or blink, skip spores and flood lings ~8:00.
- If stargate or DTs, add spores and flood drones.
- Is my opponent going for a 2-base all-in (9:00-10:00)?
- If yes, stay on 3-4 gases and either a) skip tier 2 tech and build only roaches with banked gas or b) build spine crawlers at the natural, sac the 3rd, and buy time for mutas or SH.
- If no, take all 6 gases, fully saturate, and begin lair tech buildings.
The key to making double upgraded lings work is by constantly threatening runbys and forcing the Protoss to feel uncomfortable moving out on the map until they have a sizeable force. Every single runby will force a 20 second delay in the Protoss's build order. Against players who try to take and early third (6:30-9:30), you can almost always get a cancel on it and delay it quite it bit with this build.
This opening also transitions quite nicely into pretty much any mid game. The primary purpose of the double upgraded lings is to gain early map control and allow you to safely step into the midgame. Since you're not rushing your tech and you're making only lings for a long time, you tend to bank a lot of gas going into lair, which opens a lot of opportunities for flooding hydras, mutas, swarm hosts, or even infestors to give you continued mid game momentum. soO typically abuses this excess of gas by going muta/corruptor and forcing the Protoss player to turtle while aggressively expanding and using his high-powered lings to maintain board control. He also often uses the double upgraded lings in conjunction with the mutas to hit a timing and break the Protoss natural. Instead of the spire/infestation pit, you can definitely go hydra den/spire as well.
All in all, this is one of the safest-feeling builds I've played in a while, and I recommend it for all Zerg players who are having trouble trying to figure out what to do before 10:00 in this matchup. This build allows you to auto-pilot a lot of the decisions you would normally have to make like whether or not to make lings vs. warpgate pressure, how much to make, when to stop droning, how to defend 2-base all-ins, etc., by simplifying it and allowing you to "overreact" to some degree without the incredibly painful side effects.
Good luck and have fun! Go destroy those soultrain goobers!
_
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How does it do fare against +1 gateway timings?
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On May 14 2014 12:07 Saechiis wrote:
How does it do fare against +1 gateway timings?
I think soO would get the roach warren earlier in that case.
Good luck and have fun! Go destroy those soultrain goobers!
That build is not good against the oldschool FFE soultrain. It's probably good if the Protoss goes for a Gatewayexpand into some 3gate pressure that you hold of into some desperation Soul Train without a Forge. But for a regular Nexus-->Forge you get your gas way too early, your third too late, your warren too late and since the upgrades only finish at around 10:30 you are completely dependend on the Protoss pushing slow.
It's a good build if the Protoss does a gateway expand that does not put down a forge right afterwards or if forge than forge+stargate.
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Both of the above commenters need to remember double evo lings is a reaction to scouting stargate. Obviously if you see an early-working forge or a robo you drop a lair, roach warren and a single evo instead.
The later lair does mean your roach speed (and roach production) will be slower against blink, so it's important to rely on spines.
You also need to worry about the 2 phoenix into robo all-in builds because your lair tech is slightly delayed, so keep an eye on their lack-of-third.
If you want to do a similar build off of the four gasless openings, the 4:00 or 4:30 single gas both give you speed in time to cancel the third, stop a 7 gate, and can transition straight into 7 minute double evos with the same timings.
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United States4883 Posts
On May 14 2014 22:20 entropy. wrote:
Both of the above commenters need to remember double evo lings is a reaction to scouting stargate. Obviously if you see an early-working forge or a robo you drop a lair, roach warren and a single evo instead.
The later lair does mean your roach speed (and roach production) will be slower against blink, so it's important to rely on spines.
You also need to worry about the 2 phoenix into robo all-in builds because your lair tech is slightly delayed, so keep an eye on their lack-of-third.
If you want to do a similar build off of the four gasless openings, the 4:00 or 4:30 single gas both give you speed in time to cancel the third, stop a 7 gate, and can transition straight into 7 minute double evos with the same timings.
Not quite true. While it's certainly really good to go double upgraded lings against stargate, it's not a hard and fast rule that you only do this build against stargate. This build is more than adaquate to take on things like blink all-ins, 7-gate +1 all-ins, and even soultrains under the right circumstances. As I say often, the only decent map for soultrain in the current map pool is Habitation Station, in which case you might consider a different build.
On May 14 2014 15:39 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2014 12:07 Saechiis wrote:
How does it do fare against +1 gateway timings? I think soO would get the roach warren earlier in that case. That build is not good against the oldschool FFE soultrain. It's probably good if the Protoss goes for a Gatewayexpand into some 3gate pressure that you hold of into some desperation Soul Train without a Forge. But for a regular Nexus-->Forge you get your gas way too early, your third too late, your warren too late and since the upgrades only finish at around 10:30 you are completely dependend on the Protoss pushing slow. It's a good build if the Protoss does a gateway expand that does not put down a forge right afterwards or if forge than forge+stargate.
Like I said in the description, soO does various different openings to get into double upgraded lings. If you scout a FFE early on (or just suspect it), you can just skip gas and get double gas at ~5:30-6:00 for the same effect (first 100 on speed, next 250 on +1/+1, next 100 on lair). In any case, it's probably not AS strong on a small map vs. FFE, but it still works out fine on larger maps like Alterzim or Frost where it takes almost a full minute to cross the map anyway.
Even so, the build in the OP still gets ~20 roaches/40 lings and 60 drones/4 gases by 10:30, which is pretty remarkable given the early gas and late third.
On May 14 2014 12:07 Saechiis wrote:
How does it do fare against +1 gateway timings?
Against any "early 2-base all-ins" that hit ~8:30-9:30 such as gateway all-ins or mantrain, you would just forgo the upgrades and throw down an emergency roach warren. The gas that you have accumulated should be more than enough for the roaches you need.
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I've been doing different variations of this +1/+1 ling style, and I just get rekt every time by a soul train. Everyone says to counterattack, but 9/10 times a good player will have a full wall in at the nat or else have a zealot on hold position which means runbys don't achieve anything. How do you beat a soultrain with this?
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Would getting a hydra den at lair instead of a roach warren if you have scouted a 2 base all in coming be a better response? hydra ling with good upgrades on the lings could be really potent in defending the push as well as counter attacking.
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United States4883 Posts
On May 16 2014 04:37 LucoxP wrote:
I've been doing different variations of this +1/+1 ling style, and I just get rekt every time by a soul train. Everyone says to counterattack, but 9/10 times a good player will have a full wall in at the nat or else have a zealot on hold position which means runbys don't achieve anything. How do you beat a soultrain with this?
There are a couple of different ways to do it, but I think counterattacking is the least reliable. You should definitely attempt a runby if you can, but without roaches, you're not going to be able to break down that wall. A more reliable solution is to either use your first ~35 lings to surround the army as it's moving out and force out a few forcefields OR use your lings to follow behind the army and kill off the reinforcement pylons.
On May 16 2014 04:43 LucoxP wrote:
Would getting a hydra den at lair instead of a roach warren if you have scouted a 2 base all in coming be a better response? hydra ling with good upgrades on the lings could be really potent in defending the push as well as counter attacking.
For this build, the lair typically starts around 7:00-8:00, meaning you won't start any hydras until after 10:00. So...no, not really (unless it's a REALLLLLLLY big map lol). MAYBE it works against phoenixes -> soultrain, but that's pretty rare compared to phoenixes -> 2-2-2, which shreds the hell outa hydra/ling.
Tbh, with double upgraded lings, your army at 10:30 should be about the same as your army with a normal +1/roach build except the upgrades are on the lings and roach speed is a tad later.
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If you scout something that hints towards a soul train you can just go lair at 7 min (before the upgrades) and start producing hydras by min 1 with a single/no evo chambers.
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United States4883 Posts
Updated the build order and added benchmarks!
Enjoy!
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Canada13389 Posts
Great work SC2John! Thanks for helping the zergies out 
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On May 14 2014 11:10 SC2John wrote:
For this build, it's actually not that important to find the early probe as the ling swell at 6:00 is designed to hold off any pressure coming your way. In addition, because your goal is ultimately to go +1/+1 upgrades, the ling swell at 6:00 is actually useful for defending 2-base pressures that move out three minutes later at 9:00-9:30. Most Zerg players face the challenge of overreacting against early pressure and end up with a lot of useless units, but this build naturally defends early warpgate pressure that hits at 6:00-7:00 while also giving your lings extended value for later in the game.
I have one question for John or anyone else regarding this. I wonder what exactly "any pressure" includes because this part (and the guide as a whole) makes it sound like you could hold any kind of 2 base 4 gate attack by just streaming lings from 6:00 on and eventually getting roaches, that is, roaches at some point after the attack hits. But this clearly isn't the case, is it? It seems to me that you need early roaches or at least a spine or two if Protoss attacks with 12 or so zealots, similar to a 1 base 4 gate.
Replay if anyone is interested: http://ggtracker.com/matches/5239833 (not playing this build actually, but shouldn't make much of a difference)
Btw, really good work on these guides! Have been quite helpful to me.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 20 2014 06:01 velvex wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2014 11:10 SC2John wrote:
For this build, it's actually not that important to find the early probe as the ling swell at 6:00 is designed to hold off any pressure coming your way. In addition, because your goal is ultimately to go +1/+1 upgrades, the ling swell at 6:00 is actually useful for defending 2-base pressures that move out three minutes later at 9:00-9:30. Most Zerg players face the challenge of overreacting against early pressure and end up with a lot of useless units, but this build naturally defends early warpgate pressure that hits at 6:00-7:00 while also giving your lings extended value for later in the game. I have one question for John or anyone else regarding this. I wonder what exactly "any pressure" includes because this part (and the guide as a whole) makes it sound like you could hold any kind of 2 base 4 gate attack by just streaming lings from 6:00 on and eventually getting roaches, that is, roaches at some point after the attack hits. But this clearly isn't the case, is it? It seems to me that you need early roaches or at least a spine or two if Protoss attacks with 12 or so zealots, similar to a 1 base 4 gate. Replay if anyone is interested: http://ggtracker.com/matches/5239833 (not playing this build actually, but shouldn't make much of a difference) Btw, really good work on these guides! Have been quite helpful to me.
If you build ~30 lings at 5:50 with your first larva inject, you can beat any zealot pressure at that time. The Sangate, which is the most brutal pressure, hits with 4 zealots @6:15, which 30+ lings shuts down hard. If the Protoss plays well and just banks zealots without attacking, it's possible to buy enough time to transition into roaches. The nice thing about this build is that it's not an "overreaction" because the lings do not depreciate in value going into the mid game due to the +1/+1 upgrades.
In any case, I generally do not suggest skipping roaches entirely and trying to defend the Sangate or 1-base warp gate pressure with just lings alone. However, doing this swell of lings gives you a ton of freedom and map control, but doesn't "destroy your economy with an overreaction" because, again, the lings do not depreciate in value as they normally would.
EDIT: Against 3-gate pressures (after expanding), YES, this shuts it down super hard lol.
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Okay, thank you. I don't quite understand how I'm supposed to have enough larvae to make 30+ lings at 5:50 (I can see 20+, but not 30+), but I get the idea. I'll probably have to try to get more zerglings early on, which should be possible with better macro.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 20 2014 06:52 velvex wrote:
Okay, thank you. I don't quite understand how I'm supposed to have enough larvae to make 30+ lings at 5:50 (I can see 20+, but not 30+), but I get the idea. I'll probably have to try to get more zerglings early on, which should be possible with better macro.
2 full hatcheries are 3 + 4 when the larva pops off = 14 larva/28 lings total. Add this to your initial 2-4 lings, and you should have somewhere between 20 and 30 lings. Obviously you won't have a 2 full hatcheries if you're macroing well (Might have ~10 total larva when the inject pops), but if you spot the pylon going up, you can just make an extra 3-4 sets of lings with the additional larva that trickles out later, which brings you closer to the total of 30 lings.
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Well... this build does certainly sound very interesting and I'm eager to try it, as I'm a new player and haven't really tried enough things. 
I have a question though. Doesn't this swell of lings put you behind automatically in terms of economy? I'm no soO, so I probably won't be able to do even nearly as much as he does with his lings.
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On July 20 2014 09:12 Alchemik wrote:Well... this build does certainly sound very interesting and I'm eager to try it, as I'm a new player and haven't really tried enough things. I have a question though. Doesn't this swell of lings put you behind automatically in terms of economy? I'm no soO, so I probably won't be able to do even nearly as much as he does with his lings.
Well making anything other than drone will make u behind but not quite. The fact that you made a round of lings means that protoss will have to warpin additional rounds of units to take a third which is really annoying force the toss player. Also the OP mentions that these lings are necessary in defending any gateway pressure or any later allin
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United States4883 Posts
On July 20 2014 09:29 Xinzoe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2014 09:12 Alchemik wrote:Well... this build does certainly sound very interesting and I'm eager to try it, as I'm a new player and haven't really tried enough things. I have a question though. Doesn't this swell of lings put you behind automatically in terms of economy? I'm no soO, so I probably won't be able to do even nearly as much as he does with his lings. Well making anything other than drone will make u behind but not quite. The fact that you made a round of lings means that protoss will have to warpin additional rounds of units to take a third which is really annoying force the toss player. Also the OP mentions that these lings are necessary in defending any gateway pressure or any later allin
Well, yes, lings do put you behind somewhat. But the point I've been trying to hammer home, both in the OP and in my responses, is that the lings that you make early completely shut down early pressure and super greedy 3rds and aren't a "wasted investment" or an "overreaction" to most of these pressures because the lings themselves do not depreciate in value going into the mid game compared to roach warren/single evo openings.
Of course, this is a build that is primarily designed to deal with gateway expands, which are fairly common these days. Against FFEs from the Protoss, you generally want to skip the zergling speed in order to keep up economically. To do a gasless version of this, just cut the early gas and get double gas at 6:00 instead with gas priority going to zergling speed -> +1/+1 -> lair.
Here is a gasless build I actually just got finished writing up: + Show Spoiler +Gasless DUPS opening:
9 overlord
10 optional drone scout
15 hatch
18 pool
17 overlord
@100% pool, double queen and zerglings x2
26 overlord
28 3rd hatchery (4:30)
@100% queens, start a 3rd queen
Benchmark: When starting your 3rd queen (4:50), you should have 30 supply with two queens and 22 drones.
32 overlord
36 overlord
@6:00, start 1st and 2nd gases
@100% 3rd hatch, queen
@6:30-7:00 overlord scout
@100 gas, start zergling speed (7:00)
@7:30, start double evos (100 gas)
@7:45, start 4th hatchery and 3rd and 4th gases
@8:00, build a swell of lings (~16 sets)
@100% evos, start +1 melee and +1 carapace
@100 gas, start lair and roach warren (~8:30)
Benchmark: At 9:30, you should have about 100 supply with 60 drones, 4 queens, 4 gases, and ~60 lings.
This build essentially gets speed and +1/+1 before lair, prioritizing lings. The swell of lings at 8:00 is designed to coincide with zergling speed finishing to allow you to pressure a normally timed 3rd (8:00-10:00). It's possible to do full inject rounds of zerglings or you can just pool extra larva for ~20 roaches when roach warren finishes.
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I am using this build but i wonder when you can get those mass queens for the super silly queen corrupter zergling timing?
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United States4883 Posts
On August 28 2014 17:30 DERASTAT wrote:
I am using this build but i wonder when you can get those mass queens for the super silly queen corrupter zergling timing?
I'm not entirely sure, (meaning this is not 100% for sure accurate), but I THINK, in order to do that timing, you skip the roach warren and start building queens 2 at a time around 8:00, giving you a total of 11 (3 to inject and 8 to attack) queens by ~11:00. Then you just mass ling/corruptor from there. You can probably narrow it down from there.
Of course, I think this is primarily in response to scouting stargate, as you know you can delay the roach warren for a bit (unless you get WP cannon rushed by someone like Zest kekekeke).
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does this muta midgame style not feed into the hands of protoss who aim for 3 base blink stalker play?
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On September 10 2014 01:07 Mojito99 wrote:
does this muta midgame style not feed into the hands of protoss who aim for 3 base blink stalker play?
You dont have to go Muta. You can also go Ling Infestor with Ultralisks later on or a Ling Hydra Timing. Both of these are very strong against 3 Base Blinkstalker, especially with the Double Upgrades for the Lings. You can go from this into Swarmhosts too if you like.
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United States4883 Posts
On September 10 2014 01:07 Mojito99 wrote:
does this muta midgame style not feed into the hands of protoss who aim for 3 base blink stalker play?
Not necessarily, it's part of a bigger metagame shift. In order to explain, let me give some background. I spent some time watching every ZvP from April to September recently as a part of a project I'm working on, and there are some definite shifts in the meta game as time goes on.
1) Jumping back to early 2014, that was about the time that classic phoenix/colossus was starting to die off and players were starting to play around more with the voidray/archon/chargelot styles or VR/colossus. Either way, it was still pretty greedy and turtly, designed to get Protoss into the late game where Zergs tended to struggle on the smaller maps.
2) So, taking advantage of the fairly small maps, Zergs were coming up with all kinds of builds to bust the third base, and this mainly had to do with being VERY greedy in the early game. Originally, these were just big 3-base pressures with minimal upgrades, but then Zerg players started to hit slightly later timings (roach/hydra/viper comes to mind) off of 4 bases, which hit even stronger and greedier.
3) Metagame always revolves around anti-timings. If you can crush the timing your opponent sets up all game long, your opponent no longer sets the precendent for the flow of the game, and you can easily roll over the rest of your opponent's game plan until they adapt. For this purpose, Protoss players began doing the 3-base blink/gateway all-ins. These builds would punish the Zergs who were really greedy in taking their fourth base and skipping a lot of units to get out lair tech. On top of this, Protoss players also began to expand much sooner (from ~9:30 as the average to 7:30 as the average). This is also the time period in which oracle openings developed.
4) Zergs were dying a lot to these blink builds, so this double upgraded ling build came back really popularly. In addition, Zergs started building ~12+ roaches before taking their 4th, and soO, in particular, would typically double expand to quickly catch up in the gas income. This is a very simple tweak to make in-game: if you scout blink and 6-8 gateways with your overseer scout on 3 bases, you can just save up larva and make a swell of roaches before taking additional bases and starting with your lair tech. The latest addition is the revival of the "roach max" strategy which Shine in particular is doing a lot. 3 gases and lots of roaches shuts down this attack hard and actually makes it quite difficult for the Protoss to defend with no robo units.
So, as you can, the blink timings were not a response to muta builds in particular (although they did help to dent them because Zergs couldn't just bank 1000 gas very early). Blink builds are designed to keep the Zerg honest and keep them from playing too greedy, but this particular build (with the right adjustments) does quite well against them and transitions well into muta/ling.
In my experience, if you're struggling, I highly suggest doing what soO does: DO NOT BUILD a macro hatchery until you have five bases. In other words, your 4th hatchery should be your 4th base, not a macro hatchery, same for 5th. If your creep spread and injects are good and you're responding correctly to what you're scouting, you either defend any attacks and get a HUGE gas boost very quickly or you use your hatchery as a giant Point Defense Drone while you prepare to defend elsewhere.
Anyways, hopes this helps some!
EDIT: Also, what speedy said ^. There are a lot of different branches, and this opening can honestly transition into just about anything.
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Sick post. I love your tutorials. Time to ling some protoss xD
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YES! This build! Came here to check details, thanks.
This is a beautiful thing, you get early gas to defend any sort of early agression, so you can diverge to emergency defense without much trouble. Then soO gets a roach warren, but quite often just makes a few roaches or none at all!
Again, if protoss just makes a ton of gates and go for it, he does have a roach warren, otherwise he secures map control or pressure third base with 1/1 lings if protoss is greedy, with that he is ready to get any tech he needs and a 4th and 5th ♥
Many people (from articles and LR), including me, agree that soO is a player with no clear weaknesses in his playstyle. This build is just that, its just safe, but it sets everything to a point where protoss made a tech choice and zerg can respond with whatever he needs
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5am here and I can't sleep. Guess it's a perfect time to watch those Zest vs soO VODs you have linked in preparation for GSL in 6 hours!
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This build just doesn't work for what it is meant for. Even when you scout 4 gates, you scout pylon, you scout everything, but defending 4 gate with it is impossible.
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On July 05 2015 06:37 Juny1spion wrote:
This build just doesn't work for what it is meant for. Even when you scout 4 gates, you scout pylon, you scout everything, but defending 4 gate with it is impossible.
Nothing is impossible, add banelings and a few spine crawlers + micro well, this is a nice guide written by John.
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On July 05 2015 06:54 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 06:37 Juny1spion wrote:
This build just doesn't work for what it is meant for. Even when you scout 4 gates, you scout pylon, you scout everything, but defending 4 gate with it is impossible. Nothing is impossible, add banelings and a few spine crawlers + micro well, this is a nice guide written by John.
Umm adding banelings is pretty bad choice, good luck with defending 3rd with your spine crawler when your 3rd isn't done yet and there is no creep. Nice written guide, good build, but the swell of lings is useless and making 8 drones instead is way better.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 05 2015 06:37 Juny1spion wrote:
This build just doesn't work for what it is meant for. Even when you scout 4 gates, you scout pylon, you scout everything, but defending 4 gate with it is impossible.
1-base or 2-base 4-gate? You can clean up both with just mass ling/queen and a few spines if you can afford it. For a 1-base 4-gate, abort the 3rd hatchery and opt for spine crawlers in your natural, spamming lings as soon as possible (~5:00). For a 2-base version, just make sure you flood lings when your first larva pops at around 6:00 and pull a queen to the 3rd and you should do decently. In fact, you can build a round of lings anytime your opponent goes FE -> 3+ gates with that first inject and counter it fairly nicely. Otherwise, the drones are a better choice ^^.
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any1 tried this build on the new maps?
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On July 05 2015 17:58 A_Scarecrow wrote:
any1 tried this build on the new maps?
I've been reeeally trying to use this build and don't just take it from me on this, but I have almost literally zero success with it in the current ZvP metagame, Zergling heavy styles seem totally ineffective in this blink stalker/sentry meta, yea you have lots of Zerglings with 1/1 but they can't even scratch the stalkers once they have blink and an adequate number of sentries, and by that time, Roaches are ineffective as well.
Honestly Zerg just sucks vs. Protoss right now in general, very difficult match up to play, maybe if you can multitask well enough to consistently force cancels on their third or just constantly poke and prod to bait FF, but every FF baited is usually Zerglings lost.
Seriously though, you try it and get back to me, if you find it working for you then I would love to know if someone else could make this work, it's a pretty old build honestly it was kind of popular awhile ago but fell out of favor reeally fast.
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On July 05 2015 10:12 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 06:37 Juny1spion wrote:
This build just doesn't work for what it is meant for. Even when you scout 4 gates, you scout pylon, you scout everything, but defending 4 gate with it is impossible. 1-base or 2-base 4-gate? You can clean up both with just mass ling/queen and a few spines if you can afford it. For a 1-base 4-gate, abort the 3rd hatchery and opt for spine crawlers in your natural, spamming lings as soon as possible (~5:00). For a 2-base version, just make sure you flood lings when your first larva pops at around 6:00 and pull a queen to the 3rd and you should do decently. In fact, you can build a round of lings anytime your opponent goes FE -> 3+ gates with that first inject and counter it fairly nicely. Otherwise, the drones are a better choice ^^.
Sangate, or 2 base 4g. Even when you do your lings blindly, you scout excatly where the pylon is, the lings pop out around when the warp gate research finish, so when your lings start attacking pylon he warp ins 4 zealots and that's basically the end since you have worse eco than P.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 06 2015 08:16 Juny1spion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 10:12 SC2John wrote:On July 05 2015 06:37 Juny1spion wrote:
This build just doesn't work for what it is meant for. Even when you scout 4 gates, you scout pylon, you scout everything, but defending 4 gate with it is impossible. 1-base or 2-base 4-gate? You can clean up both with just mass ling/queen and a few spines if you can afford it. For a 1-base 4-gate, abort the 3rd hatchery and opt for spine crawlers in your natural, spamming lings as soon as possible (~5:00). For a 2-base version, just make sure you flood lings when your first larva pops at around 6:00 and pull a queen to the 3rd and you should do decently. In fact, you can build a round of lings anytime your opponent goes FE -> 3+ gates with that first inject and counter it fairly nicely. Otherwise, the drones are a better choice ^^. Sangate, or 2 base 4g. Even when you do your lings blindly, you scout excatly where the pylon is, the lings pop out around when the warp gate research finish, so when your lings start attacking pylon he warp ins 4 zealots and that's basically the end since you have worse eco than P.
At that point it just comes down to micro . You should be able to hold off the pressure with queens/speedlings, especially if you keep a small subgroup pressuring the pylon and forcing the Protoss player to keep 3-4 zealots there to protect it. I don't have a recent example, but there have been quite a few games of Zerg players defending this pressure with pure ling/queen, even a Life game a while back where he didn't even get ling speed.
As far as how this works in the current meta, I can't really comment, but I doubt it works against the fast 3-base blink stalker builds just because of how safe 3-base openers from Protoss have become. The original idea behind this build was to allow Zerg to gain early control of the map and really shut down Protoss greed while pulling ahead in economy and transitioning, but since transitions, particularly to swarm host (which hard countered colossus-less styles), are quite a bit weaker than they used to be. My advice is to copy more recent games ^^.
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On July 06 2015 09:09 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 08:16 Juny1spion wrote:On July 05 2015 10:12 SC2John wrote:On July 05 2015 06:37 Juny1spion wrote:
This build just doesn't work for what it is meant for. Even when you scout 4 gates, you scout pylon, you scout everything, but defending 4 gate with it is impossible. 1-base or 2-base 4-gate? You can clean up both with just mass ling/queen and a few spines if you can afford it. For a 1-base 4-gate, abort the 3rd hatchery and opt for spine crawlers in your natural, spamming lings as soon as possible (~5:00). For a 2-base version, just make sure you flood lings when your first larva pops at around 6:00 and pull a queen to the 3rd and you should do decently. In fact, you can build a round of lings anytime your opponent goes FE -> 3+ gates with that first inject and counter it fairly nicely. Otherwise, the drones are a better choice ^^. Sangate, or 2 base 4g. Even when you do your lings blindly, you scout excatly where the pylon is, the lings pop out around when the warp gate research finish, so when your lings start attacking pylon he warp ins 4 zealots and that's basically the end since you have worse eco than P. At that point it just comes down to micro . You should be able to hold off the pressure with queens/speedlings, especially if you keep a small subgroup pressuring the pylon and forcing the Protoss player to keep 3-4 zealots there to protect it. I don't have a recent example, but there have been quite a few games of Zerg players defending this pressure with pure ling/queen, even a Life game a while back where he didn't even get ling speed. As far as how this works in the current meta, I can't really comment, but I doubt it works against the fast 3-base blink stalker builds just because of how safe 3-base openers from Protoss have become. The original idea behind this build was to allow Zerg to gain early control of the map and really shut down Protoss greed while pulling ahead in economy and transitioning, but since transitions, particularly to swarm host (which hard countered colossus-less styles), are quite a bit weaker than they used to be. My advice is to copy more recent games ^^.
Micro what? As I said, you have so bad eco that Protoss can just outmass you with zealots and lings are just super-inefficent against them. If you keep pressuring the pylon with a small subgroup, those are just missing lings in the fight and Protoss doesn't really need having even 3 zealots there so those are just lings for nothing. OF COURSE Sangate isn't unbeatable and some Zergs defend it, but not with this build.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 07 2015 02:20 Juny1spion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 09:09 SC2John wrote:On July 06 2015 08:16 Juny1spion wrote:On July 05 2015 10:12 SC2John wrote:On July 05 2015 06:37 Juny1spion wrote:
This build just doesn't work for what it is meant for. Even when you scout 4 gates, you scout pylon, you scout everything, but defending 4 gate with it is impossible. 1-base or 2-base 4-gate? You can clean up both with just mass ling/queen and a few spines if you can afford it. For a 1-base 4-gate, abort the 3rd hatchery and opt for spine crawlers in your natural, spamming lings as soon as possible (~5:00). For a 2-base version, just make sure you flood lings when your first larva pops at around 6:00 and pull a queen to the 3rd and you should do decently. In fact, you can build a round of lings anytime your opponent goes FE -> 3+ gates with that first inject and counter it fairly nicely. Otherwise, the drones are a better choice ^^. Sangate, or 2 base 4g. Even when you do your lings blindly, you scout excatly where the pylon is, the lings pop out around when the warp gate research finish, so when your lings start attacking pylon he warp ins 4 zealots and that's basically the end since you have worse eco than P. At that point it just comes down to micro . You should be able to hold off the pressure with queens/speedlings, especially if you keep a small subgroup pressuring the pylon and forcing the Protoss player to keep 3-4 zealots there to protect it. I don't have a recent example, but there have been quite a few games of Zerg players defending this pressure with pure ling/queen, even a Life game a while back where he didn't even get ling speed. As far as how this works in the current meta, I can't really comment, but I doubt it works against the fast 3-base blink stalker builds just because of how safe 3-base openers from Protoss have become. The original idea behind this build was to allow Zerg to gain early control of the map and really shut down Protoss greed while pulling ahead in economy and transitioning, but since transitions, particularly to swarm host (which hard countered colossus-less styles), are quite a bit weaker than they used to be. My advice is to copy more recent games ^^. Micro what? As I said, you have so bad eco that Protoss can just outmass you with zealots and lings are just super-inefficent against them. If you keep pressuring the pylon with a small subgroup, those are just missing lings in the fight and Protoss doesn't really need having even 3 zealots there so those are just lings for nothing. OF COURSE Sangate isn't unbeatable and some Zergs defend it, but not with this build.
Let me make this clear: this is an old build which really doesn't have much relevance to modern games. I have no idea why this build was brought up again.
The Sangate and other early pressures are not unbeatable, and always come down to micro. If you want to make it easier on yourself, simply do not take an early third base if you scout a 10-gate/sangate; it's that simple. There are very very few other ways to allocate money for ling speed, queens, and 3 bases and somehow be in a better position to defend against a 6:00 timing. In terms of standard macro games, this build was my go-to build because it dealt with most early aggression fairly well while transitioning into a solid mid game; this does not mean it was safe 100% of the time against everything no matter what.
If you're having trouble against early pressures that you can't defend with micro, especially in the current metagame, don't use this build. Okay?
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On May 14 2014 11:10 SC2John wrote:
So, as many people may have noticed, I reference this build a lot in the Zerg Help Me Thread because I think it's pretty safe and plays out pretty easily;
For this build, it's actually not that important to find the early probe as the ling swell at 6:00 is designed to hold off any pressure coming your way.
This build allows you to auto-pilot a lot of the decisions you would normally have to make like whether or not to make lings vs. warpgate pressure, how much to make, when to stop droning, how to defend 2-base all-ins, etc., by simplifying it and allowing you to "overreact" to some degree without the incredibly painful side effects.
Okay! sorry, by this I thought the lings should counter the common Sangate "easily" as you wrote
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On July 05 2015 06:58 Juny1spion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 06:54 GGzerG wrote:On July 05 2015 06:37 Juny1spion wrote:
This build just doesn't work for what it is meant for. Even when you scout 4 gates, you scout pylon, you scout everything, but defending 4 gate with it is impossible. Nothing is impossible, add banelings and a few spine crawlers + micro well, this is a nice guide written by John. Umm adding banelings is pretty bad choice, good luck with defending 3rd with your spine crawler when your 3rd isn't done yet and there is no creep. Nice written guide, good build, but the swell of lings is useless and making 8 drones instead is way better.
vs a heavy zealot aggressive / all in it works, vs Sentry / Stalker it doesn't / shouldn't.
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On July 07 2015 02:20 Juny1spion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 09:09 SC2John wrote:On July 06 2015 08:16 Juny1spion wrote:On July 05 2015 10:12 SC2John wrote:On July 05 2015 06:37 Juny1spion wrote:
This build just doesn't work for what it is meant for. Even when you scout 4 gates, you scout pylon, you scout everything, but defending 4 gate with it is impossible. 1-base or 2-base 4-gate? You can clean up both with just mass ling/queen and a few spines if you can afford it. For a 1-base 4-gate, abort the 3rd hatchery and opt for spine crawlers in your natural, spamming lings as soon as possible (~5:00). For a 2-base version, just make sure you flood lings when your first larva pops at around 6:00 and pull a queen to the 3rd and you should do decently. In fact, you can build a round of lings anytime your opponent goes FE -> 3+ gates with that first inject and counter it fairly nicely. Otherwise, the drones are a better choice ^^. Sangate, or 2 base 4g. Even when you do your lings blindly, you scout excatly where the pylon is, the lings pop out around when the warp gate research finish, so when your lings start attacking pylon he warp ins 4 zealots and that's basically the end since you have worse eco than P. At that point it just comes down to micro . You should be able to hold off the pressure with queens/speedlings, especially if you keep a small subgroup pressuring the pylon and forcing the Protoss player to keep 3-4 zealots there to protect it. I don't have a recent example, but there have been quite a few games of Zerg players defending this pressure with pure ling/queen, even a Life game a while back where he didn't even get ling speed. As far as how this works in the current meta, I can't really comment, but I doubt it works against the fast 3-base blink stalker builds just because of how safe 3-base openers from Protoss have become. The original idea behind this build was to allow Zerg to gain early control of the map and really shut down Protoss greed while pulling ahead in economy and transitioning, but since transitions, particularly to swarm host (which hard countered colossus-less styles), are quite a bit weaker than they used to be. My advice is to copy more recent games ^^. Micro what? As I said, you have so bad eco that Protoss can just outmass you with zealots and lings are just super-inefficent against them. If you keep pressuring the pylon with a small subgroup, those are just missing lings in the fight and Protoss doesn't really need having even 3 zealots there so those are just lings for nothing. OF COURSE Sangate isn't unbeatable and some Zergs defend it, but not with this build.
If protoss masses Zealots, adding in banelings with this build will do extremely well.
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EPT
