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Taiwan931 Posts
I actually believe mech characterize the state of clinical depression for Zerg very well. You basically feel like nothing you do matters. So my question is that going SH BL corruptor infestor leaves me very gas starved. Should I be making queens and static defense? Or should I just bank for something? Also I think muta as reaction to banshee is actually bad... Depends on the amount of investment in banshees it might be more important to get out faster SH. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On December 20 2013 01:54 blade55555 wrote: Don't let them get there. Deny bases and try to trade efficiently. If you are letting Terran take 4+ bases and he gets mass ravens it's near impossible to win. Not true. It's beatable if you play better than the Terran. It's no where near impossible to win. It's just a lot of Zergs play completely theoretically incorrect against that style. I watched your video a few days ago, and you played bomber and made 12+ broods at the same time...Bomber is a good player but against a more experienced mech user they would have seen what you were doing a long time ago and already had 12+ vikings and 3-4 ravens. If that is the case, you are committing an entire maxed out supply and over 2000 vespene gas to broodlords which you are just trying to outright win the game with, and if you don't win the game there, then it will be very difficult for you because the Terran will retain all of their ravens/vikings and rebuild ground mech. Ultralisk switches, mass mutalisk switches, hydra/roach/viper, and even swarmhost + viper style have to be utilized and switched out of and back into depending on what you kill of the Terran's army. If you pick away at their thor count, you have opportunities for mass muta transition. If you chip away at siege tanks there are opportunities for hydra/viper/roach or more swarmhosts + ultra to work. The reason mech vs Zerg is difficult for both players is because every game is entirely different and 100% dependent on scouting. Both players want to be ahead of the other player 1 step on the unit compositional wheel. Another thing really underutilized are nydus worms because Zergs don't really understand how to use them or when to use them in macro games. Most Zergs just use them with all-ins. The other thing from Zerg that can win you the game alone is creep spread. If you have so many creep tumors in a 180 degree angle spawning outwards on the map every 15 seconds...there will be no way Terran can clear it unless they multi-task really, really well. That's another thing a lot of Zergs forget vs mech. And as for the situation where Terran has a lot of ravens, and you have a lot of swarmhost/infestor + whatever...it's usually the better player and multi-tasker that wins, or whoever manages to take more vespene gas income with extra bases or denying extra bases. Ravens only seem impossible to beat if you are making bad decisions on what units to make. Just like from a new player learning Terran mech, swarmhosts seem impossible to beat or mass muta if you are making the wrong decisions in what units you build. There have been too many times i play Zergs that will go mass ultra into mass muta...into mass ultra....and i'm left speechless because the Zerg just basically forced me to build 20 thors...which are the counter to both mutas and ultralisks. Those are the types of unit compositional decisions you do not want to make as the Zerg. From there, it's whoever plays better will win. | ||
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loft
United States344 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On December 27 2013 15:12 avilo wrote: Not true. It's beatable if you play better than the Terran. It's no where near impossible to win. It's just a lot of Zergs play completely theoretically incorrect against that style. I watched your video a few days ago, and you played bomber and made 12+ broods at the same time...Bomber is a good player but against a more experienced mech user they would have seen what you were doing a long time ago and already had 12+ vikings and 3-4 ravens. If that is the case, you are committing an entire maxed out supply and over 2000 vespene gas to broodlords which you are just trying to outright win the game with, and if you don't win the game there, then it will be very difficult for you because the Terran will retain all of their ravens/vikings and rebuild ground mech. Ultralisk switches, mass mutalisk switches, hydra/roach/viper, and even swarmhost + viper style have to be utilized and switched out of and back into depending on what you kill of the Terran's army. If you pick away at their thor count, you have opportunities for mass muta transition. If you chip away at siege tanks there are opportunities for hydra/viper/roach or more swarmhosts + ultra to work. The reason mech vs Zerg is difficult for both players is because every game is entirely different and 100% dependent on scouting. Both players want to be ahead of the other player 1 step on the unit compositional wheel. Another thing really underutilized are nydus worms because Zergs don't really understand how to use them or when to use them in macro games. Most Zergs just use them with all-ins. The other thing from Zerg that can win you the game alone is creep spread. If you have so many creep tumors in a 180 degree angle spawning outwards on the map every 15 seconds...there will be no way Terran can clear it unless they multi-task really, really well. That's another thing a lot of Zergs forget vs mech. And as for the situation where Terran has a lot of ravens, and you have a lot of swarmhost/infestor + whatever...it's usually the better player and multi-tasker that wins, or whoever manages to take more vespene gas income with extra bases or denying extra bases. Ravens only seem impossible to beat if you are making bad decisions on what units to make. Just like from a new player learning Terran mech, swarmhosts seem impossible to beat or mass muta if you are making the wrong decisions in what units you build. There have been too many times i play Zergs that will go mass ultra into mass muta...into mass ultra....and i'm left speechless because the Zerg just basically forced me to build 20 thors...which are the counter to both mutas and ultralisks. Those are the types of unit compositional decisions you do not want to make as the Zerg. From there, it's whoever plays better will win. ah you see here is where you are incorrect. If a terran gets bc/raven/viking maxed out no zerg composition beats it unless terran goes into stupid mode and attacks into mass spores + infestors + corruptors. As long as terran doesn't do anything that dumb they win ez. I have seen many zergs try to fight that composition without doing mass spores and they just get wrecked. Sorry I know you think mech needs buffs but in tvz if terran ever gets that comp it's over you lose. Also a good terran will deny creep, bl's/sh are very immobile a good meching terran will run hellions around (transform them into hellbats when needed) and kill the tumors where the army is not. I personally do not think mech is that hard to beat, it's only hard/impossible when terran gets 4-5 bases is turtled up like a bl/corr/infestor player and gets that mass raven/viking/bc (don't even need the BC's, just mass raven/viking can be it). Terran gets that comp I have yet to see a zerg beat it in a straight up engagement without these things: A. 50 spores B. 50 corruptors near the spores C. swarmhosts underneath behind the spores Without spores have never seen it killed if terran gets it maxed out (or near maxed). Unless terran makes a huge blunder it won't die without what I just said. I know many terrans who agree with me that mass raven is imbalanced (thank god it's not super easy to get there and most terrans have better things to do then bore themselves out of their mind playing a 45+ minute mech game). | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
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THEPPLsELBOW
United States190 Posts
The game revolved around a dance between the raven flock and the infestors. With enough infestors, you can spawn Inf Terran along with the locusts wave, so that the locusts cover the infestors and they can be in range to throw eggs that splash onto the tanks. As long as you control at least 60% of the mining bases, you can trade somewhat inefficiently, constantly risking infestors and vipers to get a couple tank or raven snipes, with the premise that eventually the terran has to expand past 4 bases, and its much much harder to defend your 5th and 6th and still have enough for your main. You can't use your ravens to kill the SH, and too many spores are there for any banshees to do damgae. If you attempt to use ravens, you risk losing them all to Infestors. He brings all his queens so any seeker missile that doesn't kill, can be instantly transfused to negate the damage. So it's basically a pure stalemate unless Terran decides to push up with tanks (but he'll suffer more losses) DRG won that game, though it wasn't easy. It's a very subtle macro edge, okay I'm trading 400 gas for 300 of yours, but since you're gonna run out of gas sooner, then I will win in the long run. Happy didn't have enough money in the bank to safely transitions to BC's either since his economy suffered some damage for before. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 27 2013 18:22 THEPPLsELBOW wrote: Blade, you should watch Happy vs DRG (or I think some other good Korean Zerg), where happy managed to get a very large raven count, but he was up against infestor, SH, corruptor and I think 2 Broods, 2 Vipers, some really odd but efficient combination. The game revolved around a dance between the raven flock and the infestors. With enough infestors, you can spawn Inf Terran along with the locusts wave, so that the locusts cover the infestors and they can be in range to throw eggs that splash onto the tanks. As long as you control at least 60% of the mining bases, you can trade somewhat inefficiently, constantly risking infestors and vipers to get a couple tank or raven snipes, with the premise that eventually the terran has to expand past 4 bases, and its much much harder to defend your 5th and 6th and still have enough for your main. You can't use your ravens to kill the SH, and too many spores are there for any banshees to do damgae. If you attempt to use ravens, you risk losing them all to Infestors. He brings all his queens so any seeker missile that doesn't kill, can be instantly transfused to negate the damage. So it's basically a pure stalemate unless Terran decides to push up with tanks (but he'll suffer more losses) DRG won that game, though it wasn't easy. It's a very subtle macro edge, okay I'm trading 400 gas for 300 of yours, but since you're gonna run out of gas sooner, then I will win in the long run. Happy didn't have enough money in the bank to safely transitions to BC's either since his economy suffered some damage for before. I believe blade is talking about a real endgame airball, not "just" the 11 Ravens Happy had when he lost 10 of them clumping in front of approaching infestors. Also I don't believe Frost is the place to go for that style, since there it's really easy for Zergs to take 7+ bases (like DRG did) while keeping Terran at 3-4 against passive play. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On December 27 2013 16:31 blade55555 wrote: ah you see here is where you are incorrect. If a terran gets bc/raven/viking maxed out no zerg composition beats it unless terran goes into stupid mode and attacks into mass spores + infestors + corruptors. As long as terran doesn't do anything that dumb they win ez. I have seen many zergs try to fight that composition without doing mass spores and they just get wrecked. Sorry I know you think mech needs buffs but in tvz if terran ever gets that comp it's over you lose. Also a good terran will deny creep, bl's/sh are very immobile a good meching terran will run hellions around (transform them into hellbats when needed) and kill the tumors where the army is not. I personally do not think mech is that hard to beat, it's only hard/impossible when terran gets 4-5 bases is turtled up like a bl/corr/infestor player and gets that mass raven/viking/bc (don't even need the BC's, just mass raven/viking can be it). Terran gets that comp I have yet to see a zerg beat it in a straight up engagement without these things: A. 50 spores B. 50 corruptors near the spores C. swarmhosts underneath behind the spores Without spores have never seen it killed if terran gets it maxed out (or near maxed). Unless terran makes a huge blunder it won't die without what I just said. I know many terrans who agree with me that mass raven is imbalanced (thank god it's not super easy to get there and most terrans have better things to do then bore themselves out of their mind playing a 45+ minute mech game). Remember Lucifron vs Goswser on Newkirk ? Split map, shit tons of spores/spines/vipers/corruptors and SH. Lucifron with shit tons of BC, ravens, vikings and tanks + PFs. Lucifron on the sme amount of bases was totally unable to do anything and just lost after 1hour because he ran out of ressources after trading Locusts for armys and Goswser trading BC for vipers. And it was Newkirk, THE maps for meching x). | ||
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sathenzar
United States27 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On December 28 2013 02:19 Faust852 wrote: Remember Lucifron vs Goswser on Newkirk ? Split map, shit tons of spores/spines/vipers/corruptors and SH. Lucifron with shit tons of BC, ravens, vikings and tanks + PFs. Lucifron on the sme amount of bases was totally unable to do anything and just lost after 1hour because he ran out of ressources after trading Locusts for armys and Goswser trading BC for vipers. And it was Newkirk, THE maps for meching x). Like I said unless you can get a ton of static defense you can't take the army head on. That also only works on maps with split map situations (aka newkirk where it's easy to get static defense in a good area where terran HAS to go through). Take away the static defense and terran attacking into it and like I said you will never beat that army head on. It's also a bit ridiculous that you would WANT zergs to have to go mass static defense and sit there as the only way to beat it (which only works on certain maps.) Also if lucifron really wanted to win the game he would have sat and did nothing just like goswer. That way he never had to engage the zerg army by static defense and he would have won easy. But again who wants to do a game like that all day? I am just glad I have yet to let a terran get that far into the game. Last time I played against that mass raven stuff was probably 6+ months ago :D. I always kill them before then or on the rare occasion I mess up badly and die before it ^_^. | ||
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captainwaffles
United States1050 Posts
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WellCrap
Sweden122 Posts
On December 31 2013 21:28 captainwaffles wrote: As a mech terran I approve of this thread. Sounds more like you think this isn't the right way of dealing with mech. Anyway, This reminds me of the way I used to play against mech during the earlier parts of hots, Exept I was playing against much worse players(midmasters on eu then, maybe higher part of masters now?). Go from 10 swarmhosts, into 10 broods, into ultras. | ||
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captainwaffles
United States1050 Posts
On December 31 2013 22:41 WellCrap wrote: Sounds more like you think this isn't the right way of dealing with mech. Anyway, This reminds me of the way I used to play against mech during the earlier parts of hots, Exept I was playing against much worse players(midmasters on eu then, maybe higher part of masters now?). Go from 10 swarmhosts, into 10 broods, into ultras. ??? What makes you say that? | ||
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Sephiren
United States85 Posts
I know that ideally you should prevent it, but maybe it would be helpful to look at what you, Blade, would do if that does occur. That would help me, at least. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 01 2014 16:49 Sephiren wrote: This is a great video and guide, but if you encounter a Terran that DOES get to Raven/Viking/BC with tanks and thors for turtling, could you do another video of how to deal with that army in the best way possible if you failed to scout and/or took early damage so you couldn't prevent it? I know that ideally you should prevent it, but maybe it would be helpful to look at what you, Blade, would do if that does occur. That would help me, at least. I haven't let a terran get there in a long, long time. Last time I let a terran get there I got rolled because imagine that the army is near unbeatable unless terran attacks into spores. I refuse to play such a boring style of 50+ spores sh's + 50 corruptors and sitting by my spores all game. That is probably the only way to actually beat it, but that's so boring and stupid I don't do it. Now of days I beat mech before it gets there or I die before hand. | ||
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Abathur
1 Post
On December 28 2013 02:19 Faust852 wrote: Remember Lucifron vs Goswser on Newkirk ? Split map, shit tons of spores/spines/vipers/corruptors and SH. Lucifron with shit tons of BC, ravens, vikings and tanks + PFs. Lucifron on the sme amount of bases was totally unable to do anything and just lost after 1hour because he ran out of ressources after trading Locusts for armys and Goswser trading BC for vipers. And it was Newkirk, THE maps for meching x). May i remind you what happened before gowser went into the swarmhost/crawler? He tried everything to break Lucifron, but he couldn't even scratch the army. He didn't have a chance of winning without doing that. | ||
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ETisME
12702 Posts
you are approving a thread that is teaching people how to win against mech (your style) better lol unless you are actually implying the thread is teaching people wrongly so that you can win easier :D | ||
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MunroSC
Australia7 Posts
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GtC
United States546 Posts
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
Really agressive creep spread (like the whole map creaped), using all you can, like sending queen to creap with ovie everywhere on the map. A 10-15 SH for killing autotourett/ground army (like mass mines), apply pressure. You can kill PF if you blinding cloud it. But don't do too many SH cause they don't hit air and take supply. A lot of infestator is important and reschearching neural parasite. Infestator kit is very good vs skyterran : Infested terran attack air, it's the only zerg units which ignore PDD. FG, block units then you can grab then easily, throw then or chain fungal. Tank can't move nor siege, mine can't burrow nor move. Parasite neural : Interrupt Yamato canon, take control of the BC/thor/raven. Raven seeker missile is not interrupted while casting even if the infestator die or you cancel neural. You can use the combo grab + neural. Click Neural on a unit out of the range of the infestor, then use viper to grab it, the unit is automaticly neuraled when on range. A lot of spores, on the battle field, cause it cost no supply, and it's the best zerg anti-air. Spines to cover expansion. A small force of roach+burrow + tunneling + infestator can be good to deal with hellbat/hellions harass. Fungal hellion to prevent them from running, and FG on hellbat make them useless. And the roach never die thx to the regeneration. Can harass or kill Pf if you blind it. | ||
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