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4713 Posts
Awesome guide, very detailed and in depth, I already had somewhat of a good grasp on TvZ but this filled in a lot of the holes I still had and I'm very thankful for this.
I think I have one thing to point out though, it would be appreciated if you add another subtopic in the "Aggressive play" section about 2 base Muta rush. It should be relatively easy to deal with if you add turrets and place mines in strategic locations but it would probably help a lot of people out to know this and know when it is safe to land and secure their 3rd against this option.
Also, I have another proposed idea, a lot of the guides here focus on how to execute specific build orders, but it might be really helpful if someone wrote a guide on how to fight, as in the exact steps a certain player would have to take to secure himself a victory in a fight using a certain composition vs another composition.
Example, how would a terran with marine, tank and medivac go about engaging vs a zerg going, ling, bling, muta, where do you position, how do you advance, what do you do before in and after the engagement, what do you micro and how do you micro it etc. This can be applied to any scenario probably and it would be nice to have one consolidated resource about the rules of engagement in all MUs.
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This is nonsense, terrans dont need help
User was warned for this post
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On August 16 2013 16:50 monk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 15:43 SuPerFlyTNT wrote:
Need a perpetually edited guide of this quality for each match-up, for each race, that is always up to date to the current meta, with the most 'standard' playstyle.
Then I could be good. Unfortunately,this isn't really viable as it would take probably about the equivalent of three people working full time to accomplish.
Ya there would need to be like a business model in place to support a staff of about (3 Writters, 2-4 peer editors, 1 project coordinator, 1 HTML specialist).
I doubt we could find a way to give 7-9 people even 500 dollars a month for the efforts.
Shoot, even 250 a month would be hard to find a way to support.
The people that do this do it out of passion / love of community.
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On August 17 2013 01:18 SpaceYeti wrote:Incredible well written. Great work, VaderSeven! 
♥♥♥♥Nebraska♥♥♥♥
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Holy Cow, this is a great post, thanks a bunch man!
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thanks for the write-up ^_^
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I'm curious what Terran's think the best response to this style is atm.
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On August 17 2013 05:36 Tachion wrote:
I'm curious what Terran's think the best response to this style is atm.
I think both macro and all in responses are valid. As this guide (in its current state) is mainly about 3CC double Eng, I would say that all-ins are very strong... unless the Terran scouts well and responds with a tank. 4M can be simply out played with solid macro and micro when doing Ling/Bling/Muta. I personally have the most trouble vs players that go for a roach heavy macro style with banelings but those styles do not fair well against other openers into 4M.
There is no hard counter to 4M. Just like there is no hard counter to Ling/Bling/Muta. If both players go for solid macro styles, the player that plays a more solid macro/micro game will win.
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Good write up! I've been doing all the non-tank things mentioned in the guide, but now have more options vs alpine and mistake compositions
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So happy it's a Terran guide finally <3
Wont lie I didn't read in all in one go, or two but three and damn I love you for creating this
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wow i didn't read it all yet but awesome guide, have fun terrans. I do vote for M4 instead of 4M. 4M sounds lame, M4 sounds badass. ^_-
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Russian Federation604 Posts
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QUESTION:
The guide mentions getting two widow mines after the first 6 hellions. Then what? Are people generally making their starport on the factory's reactor or do they continue making constant widow mines? Does anyone have strong opinions on this or is it just a style choice? I had been trying both before this guide and I really don't know which is better...
What are your thoughts?
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On August 17 2013 05:36 Tachion wrote:
I'm curious what Terran's think the best response to this style is atm.
I strongly believe that it's all about the mechanics (micro and macro) of both players that determine the outcome of a TvZ, so in my opinion the best response is just solid macro and intelligent micro.
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On August 17 2013 08:43 U_G_L_Y wrote:
QUESTION:
The guide mentions getting two widow mines after the first 6 hellions. Then what? Are people generally making their starport on the factory's reactor or do they continue making constant widow mines? Does anyone have strong opinions on this or is it just a style choice? I had been trying both before this guide and I really don't know which is better...
What are your thoughts?
It varries a lot. Some use the factory to make add one for raxes and others slam out more mines. I'll include more info on that in the first update. Very good question.
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On August 17 2013 05:36 Tachion wrote:
I'm curious what Terran's think the best response to this style is atm.
There are 3 big hurdles to this strat that must be overcome:
1) ling / bane / roach all in. This has more to do with the current meta rather than this is strat itself. ling / bane / roach all ins hit before terran has enough production to deal with it (which is why scouting it and throwing down a ton of bunkers is essential)
2) ultras. There is only so much kiting you can do. Eventually the ultras barrel their way into your production line then any units that come out just instantly die. Infestors make ultras even more annoying to deal with. If you stop kiting even for a second your army gets fungled and you just straight up die.
3) broodlord / ultra tech switches. If ultras haven't killed off the terran, just the threat of a broodlord switch makes terran's life more difficult because terran can't just make a catch all army in this situation. (ie. vikings suck vs. ultras and bio suck vs. broodlords). Well some people like Avilo claim that you just make ravens late game and you beat zerg no matter what their unit composition is. From personal experience ravens don't deal with ultra / ling armies particularly well. Besides, you need a crap ton of bases to make a big raven army. If terran get up to a crap ton of bases, they generally win regardless of unit composition in this matchup at least.
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On August 17 2013 05:36 Tachion wrote:
I'm curious what Terran's think the best response to this style is atm.
The key for Zerg is just to get to their late game hive units, and aim for a Ultra, infestor, hydra army, with banelings/queen/corrupter for support. This will just destroy any Terran bio army no matter how good their micro is. They key is getting there - too many Zergs make the mistake of staying Hive too long, making mass muta. If Terran gets a stranglehold on the fourth, then just sack it and make bases at two other positions - Zerg has the luxury of pretty much making bases wherever they want, and just pull drones and sacking the base if they need to.
Get early 4th and 5th by 12 mins, sack whichever one Terran attacks and pull drones to the other. Get around 10 mutas - purely for drop defense and mine cleanup with overseer. Keep around 30 defensive banelings and split into at least 3 smaller clumps. Transition into hive by using gas saved up from not massing muta, and get a few infestors to go with Ultra. Once ultras pop, there is usually a 2-3 minute window to just destory the Terran army with Ultras since Terran will have a large amount of marines, and then just deny Terran 4th and it's game for Zerg.
Another effective build is just to mass roach bane mid game, which actually trade extremely well against Terran if no tanks are around, as usually there are only mass marines with mines. From there, just keep up the aggression and transition into hive and ultra composition.
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On August 17 2013 09:20 KingofGods wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2013 05:36 Tachion wrote:
I'm curious what Terran's think the best response to this style is atm. There are 3 big hurdles to this strat that must be overcome: 1) ling / bane / roach all in. This has more to do with the current meta rather than this is strat itself. ling / bane / roach all ins hit before terran has enough production to deal with it (which is why scouting it and throwing down a ton of bunkers is essential) 2) ultras. There is only so much kiting you can do. Eventually the ultras barrel their way into your production line then any units that come out just instantly die. Infestors make ultras even more annoying to deal with. If you stop kiting even for a second your army gets fungled and you just straight up die. 3) broodlord / ultra tech switches. If ultras haven't killed off the terran, just the threat of a broodlord switch makes terran's life more difficult because terran can't just make a catch all army in this situation. (ie. vikings suck vs. ultras and bio suck vs. broodlords). Well some people like Avilo claim that you just make ravens late game and you beat zerg no matter what their unit composition is. From personal experience ravens don't deal with ultra / ling armies particularly well. Besides, you need a crap ton of bases to make a big raven army. If terran get up to a crap ton of bases, they generally win regardless of unit composition in this matchup at least.
#1 is correct. #2 and #3 are not really an issue if you understand how to fight against hive tech and how to play in the mid game. Most loses when going 4m are a result of an early game or mid game aggressive play doing significant damage to the terran or from the terran being out macrod/microd in the mid game. The late game is simply not when most games of TvZ are decided.
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Games are rarely won from the terran side before terran hits 3/3. By the time terran hits 3/3 the zerg better be not too far behind with their own 3/3 or they will lose more often then not. That's also the time when zerg start getting ultras + infestors.
Yes terrans can get advantages from a 2/2 attack when they are generally maxed but if you don't outright kill zerg off you will still have to deal with infestors and ultras unless the zerg stubbornly stays on lair tech which we see quite a bit. In fact a lot of times terran are simply trying to survive until they get 3/3. A midgame advantage could lead to something like quicker 3/3 upgrades and better econ for the late game, but you still have to beat that army where your control cannot afford to slip up.
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EPT
