“Sing, goddess, of [his] ruinous anger Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans, And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs And birds of prey.“*
If you have read the classics, you might think that the above passage refers to Homeric Achilles. Nay; this is an account of your Zerg ladder opponent's blistering rage as he fell fodder to the fabled Magic Johnson.
Introduction
Two Nexi: check. Two Immortals: check. Two Colossi: check.
The Magic Johnson, or the the Triple Double, is a 2-base all-in that sets sail with two colossi and two immortals in addition to seven warpgates worth of units to bolster. While it is true that two base colossus pushes were all but dead at the dusk of Wings of Liberty, the shifting ZvP metagame has exposed a hole for this massive peg to penetrate.
The term metagame, in this case, refers to a set of assumptions, a basis for how we open and how we expect our opponents to open. When we cannot gather information explicitly, we must fall back on what we assume our opponent “should” do in a given situation. Towards the end of Wings, 12 minute +1 roach maxes to pressure Protoss's third received a lot of play. With proper forcefields, three immortals among a snowball of warpgate units could whittle away and then smash through an endless barrage of ling/roach; and thus, the go-to 2-base all-in for Protoss was the Soul Train. Enter HotS. Protoss players now have access to the new void ray and to the mothership core's photon overcharge. These two abilities allow for considerably easier defense against roach heavy aggression. On the other hand, hydralisks are not the dead-end they once were: Hydra speed and the viper tech enable Zergs to use hydralisks to defend against all-ins, transitioning then into an aggressive yet expansion-heavy mid-game without fearing the three-base +3 three colossus pushes of old. It is, therefore, no surprise why Parting's iteration of the immortal push has fallen out of fashion.
In short, the ZvP metagame has shifted from using roaches to defend against all-ins to using ling/hydra to achieve the same feat, while transitioning into a strong mid-game of ling/hydra/swarm host/viper/ultra with an emphasis on a fast hive as well as melee and carapace upgrades.
The Magic Johnson is designed to do critical damage while Zerg is still on ling/hydra, before he can transition into said strong mid-game.
The Builds
This guide includes 2 build orders. The first opens with phoenixes to kill off scouting Overlords, thus preventing convenient overseer scouting. These phoenix also serve to pick off drones that venture too far from spore crawlers, delaying the Zerg's production, and keeping him in the dark. Phoenix openers also tend to lull Zerg into a state of relaxed droning, as these Protoss builds typically transition into a third base. The second the overlords die, Protoss cuts right to the chase, pumping out robotics units as quickly as possible for the earliest move-out timing. Another important difference between the two builds include sentry and forcefield count, as the stargate opener will have less gas available to invest in early sentries, resulting in less energy in the final key fight.
With Stargate
FFE opening
5:38, 33/44: First 150 gas into a stargate, 33/44 Units from the first gateway: zealot, stalker, sentry, sentry
6:05, 38/44: Third and fourth gas Units from the stargate: 4 phoenixes
7:05, 52/60: Robotics facility
7:40, 57/60: +1 Weapons
8:10, 63/68: Support Bay Cut probes at 45, when you have full 2base saturation Units from the robo: immortal 2x, colossus 2x. Start thermal lance with the first colossus.
8:35, 67/68: Add up to six gateways, for a total of 7
10:00: Mothership core 11:30: Move out when the second colossus completes.
Notes
Use your first stalker to deny overlord scouting.
Use your initial gateway units to check for zerglings at your third after clearing overlords, so that Zerg must invest more in scouting to figure out whether you are 2-basing.
Immediately use phoenixes to clear overlords and deny scouting rather than hiding them
Before moving out, warp in your sentries first as gas allows. Zealots and stalkers have the same utility no matter when they are warped in; only sentries need time to gain energy. Aim to have 8 sentries by the time you engage.
Without Stargate
FFE opening First 50 gas into warpgate
5:40, 35/44: Robotics facility Units from the first Gateway: zealot, stalker, sentry
6:05, 38/44: Third and fourth gas Units from the robo: immortal 2x, colossus 2x. Start thermal lance with the first colossus.
7:02, 50/60: Support Bay, then start the first sentry Cut probes at 45, going up to full 2base saturation
8:10: Add the first set of 2 extra gates
8:25-8:40: Add up to six gateways after starting the first Colossus and thermal lance
9:00: +1 Weapons
9:20: Mothership Core 9:50: Move out when the second colossus completes.
Notes
Use your first stalker to deny overlord scouting.
Use your initial gateway units to check for zerglings at your third after clearing overlords, so that Zerg must invest more in scouting to figure out whether you are 2-basing.
Before moving out, warp in your sentries first as gas allows. Zealots and stalkers have the same utility no matter when they are warped in; only sentries need time to gain energy. Aim to have 8 sentries by the time you engage.
Move-out and Engagements
Notice the roach/hydra forcefielded against the Protoss army, rather than cut in half or away from it.
Much like the Soul Train, the Magic Johnson excels in small chokes to maximize the utility of sentries and to minimize the Zerg's concave. With the three immortal Soul Train, sentries are used to section off small portions of the roach army, or even forcefield every roach away from the Protoss army. When playing the Triple Double, you should use forcefields more aggressively, preventing the retreat of ling/hydra from your powerful colossi. It is also important to note that you have to end the game even faster than with the Soul Train because Zerg can easily defend if he is able to get up to mass roach/corruptor and win with sheer numbers.
Strengths and Weaknesses
Zergs generally want to use hydralisks for safety because they transition more strongly into the mid-game. Roaches are stronger against this push, but weaker against just about every other one, and also not as good to pressure a third base thanks to void rays and photon overcharge. Even if the Zerg scouts the robotics, he cannot assume that investing in roaches is appropriate unless he knows for sure you are not taking a 3rd, and that you are in fact going for 2 base colossus. So while the stargate opener hits later, the scouting information that it denies can make your push even stronger.
As with other PvZ all-ins, if Zerg scouts your quick colossus tech, they can formulate a strong response. Pure roach play or circumventing the push entirely with spire tech for mass mutalisks have proven adequate answers thus far. Even though this build includes two immortals, roaches are stronger against it than they were against the Soul Train because the Protoss doesn't have infinite sentries, and sheer numbers of units can clean up the all-in. This is particularly true for cheap roaches, which are easily massable against such a delayed push.
VODs and Game Analysis
Flying vs Roro on DF AtlasSet 2. From WCS Korea In this game, RorO tries to respond to a fast, stargate-less colossus all-in with a roach/hydra/ling force, trying to overwhelm the Protoss with sheer numbers. However, he doesn't engage perfectly and loses a few units unnecessarily, and eventually he is forced to gg as the colossi remain untouchable. Timing hits at 10:30.
Squirtle vs ALBM on Bel'Shir VestigeSet 2. From WCS Korea This game shows the problem with getting corruptors against the 2base allin version, even the slower one off stargate: spire tech is so expensive the zerg sacrifices a huge chunk of his ground army, so he is unable to clean up the stalker/immortal force of Squirtle after taking down the two colossi. Timing hits at 12:30.
Classic vs Zero on Neo Planet Sfrom Proleague. Stargate variant of the build, and as a result Zero plays too greedy taking a fourth and overdroning (making up to 72!), which forces into a base trade as he can't fight the Protoss army straight up. From there, the game somehow normalizes. Timing hits at 12:00.
Hellokitty vs EGSuppy on Bel'Shire Vestigefrom WCS NA. Robo variant, but only gets one immortal and then an observer while also adding a warp prism later on; he is able to overwhelm a roach/hydra/ling defense thanks to great forcefields and warp prism micro. Timing hits at 11:00.
Avenge vs Hydra on Akilon WastesSet 2. From WCS Korea. Robo variant, Hydra is able to identify the build and correctly go roaches but Avenge wins by abusing Akilon's rocks. The corruptors prove too big of an investment, and the stalker/immortal army eventually wins the fight on the ground. Timing hits at 11:30.
Trap vs Sniper on Star StationSet 2. From WCS Korea Stargate variant, the phoenixes lead Sniper into being too greedy and while the colossi get taken down by corruptors, the ground Protoss army wins after a tight micro battle. Timing hits at 11:40.
Super vs Curious on DMZSet 7. From GSTL Robo variant, Curious overdrones immensely (up to 71) and doesn't have enough roach/hydra/ling for the fast version of the push. Timing hits at 10:40.
Parting vs Soulkey on Star StationSet 5. From WCS Korea. Robo variant with one immortal; Soulkey is able to identify the push in time to go for mutas and deal crippling damage while forcing a recall. Timing hits at 11:10 after being delayed by speedlings. * Homer's The Iliad Book I
i've been trying this build for a while but haven't found that much success because i suck at executing it. i think it's super important to deny all scouting and make it ambiguous as to whether or not you're taking a 3rd. great guide though.
On June 12 2013 04:11 LeafBlower wrote: i've been trying this build for a while but haven't found that much success because i suck at executing it. i think it's super important to deny all scouting and make it ambiguous as to whether or not you're taking a 3rd. great guide though.
Very well written and interestering even if you don't play anymore, I love the timing of this build, already looking forward to the changes it will cause or atleast be one of the reasons for in the next few months.
Yay. Another all-in build for ........you guessed it......protoss. Something to do, I guess,until zergs figure it out and then it's on to the next all-in build. Rinse and repeat. Thanks anyway. *yawn*
Guys Protoss is more strategic and smart, we Terran players don't know how to read anyway so it wouldn't be of much use. Real men only need micro, not colossi...
On June 12 2013 04:31 ZenithM wrote: Guys Protoss is more strategic and smart, we Terran players don't know how to read anyway so it wouldn't be of much use. Real men only need micro, not colossi...
You're right! Most Terrans are quite micro, and most Protoss are quite colossus.
On June 12 2013 04:11 LeafBlower wrote: i've been trying this build for a while but haven't found that much success because i suck at executing it. i think it's super important to deny all scouting and make it ambiguous as to whether or not you're taking a 3rd. great guide though.
On June 12 2013 04:21 monk wrote: If no one complains about the lack of Terran guides from now on, I promise the next one will be Terran.
This reminds me of when Ricky Gervais promises to donate thousands of dollars to charity if no one retreats him, and hundreds of people end up doing it anyway. There's always at least a few assholes that will ruin these things for everyone else just for the sake of ruining it. Honestly, I don't care because I play protoss anyway bahahahahahaha! Keep the guides coming guys!
On June 12 2013 04:18 vNmMasterT wrote: TL strategy = protoss all-in/gimmick library
gotta be a terran lol.
siked, been looking for a BO since it came out
Yeah probably a Terran, but he is still telling the truth. I will get my Terran info elsewhere. As Terrans, are not wanted here i guesse QQ ( and yes im whining, and yes there haven't been any Terran guides..... )
Oh jeez guys stop the terran guide qq. There is one coming out very soon (its in editing stages) and everyone should have figured that out from what monk posted. More pvz talk!
Question: How long will this build remain relevant in top tournament play?
I feel like too much time was spent on fancy graphics, and not enough time spent on the actual build itself. Where you put your chronoboosts is really, really important, and it isn't included. Please flesh it out. That is the difference between hitting a timing at 11:00 minutes and winning, or 11:50 and losing. The build order is incomplete without them.
On June 12 2013 04:11 LeafBlower wrote: i've been trying this build for a while but haven't found that much success because i suck at executing it. i think it's super important to deny all scouting and make it ambiguous as to whether or not you're taking a 3rd. great guide though.
when you engage, it should look like this
hope that helps
Must have been F5'ing the thread, just waiting for a chance to use that.
On June 12 2013 05:18 Emzeeshady wrote: Thank you so much TL for contributing another Protoss all in. No there isn't just 3245 all ins for Protoss. There are 3246 -_- Thank you TL
Actually, there are 3 secret all-ins for staff members only, so there are actually 3249
I was literally thinking yesterday, "I keep hearing about this 2 immortal 2 collosus push but I'm not sure exactly how it works..I wish there was a guide" and then bam, here's a guide. Awesome,t hanks.
On June 12 2013 05:18 Emzeeshady wrote: Thank you so much TL for contributing another Protoss all in. No there isn't just 3245 all ins for Protoss. There are 3246 -_- Thank you TL
Actually, there are 3 secret all-ins for staff members only, so there are actually 3249
For those wanting a terran 2 base TvP all in, go have a look at bomber vs MC red bull lan grand finals 2012. Just google and you will find it, its the game on entombed valley. It fits perfect in the current metagame.
A few corrections from your friendly neighboorhood zerg who is very unhappy with this guide (all my ladder points T_T)
You'll want this url for the first VOD: www.gomtv.net/2013wcs1/vod/80084/?set=14 The one in the OP is for the other Flying vs RorO match (they played twice in the ro16)
So i took the liberty of adding the non stargate version into my flowchart tool i'm currently developing and wanted to post the link to that build here.
Mods if you think i'm overstepping my boundaries here pls do tell so i can edit/delete my post
and this is the direct link to the 2-2-2 no stargate build : No stargate 2-2-2
I don't have the time to add the other one today, so i will add that one tomorrow. Also if you want to check out the tool and leave me feedback, would be much apreciated
NO WHY DID YOU HIGHLIGHT THIS BUILD! i have been using it in pvz alot now and now the zergs will play against it more TT. it is a great build and the phoenix variation is also pretty nice.
On June 12 2013 04:11 LeafBlower wrote: i've been trying this build for a while but haven't found that much success because i suck at executing it. i think it's super important to deny all scouting and make it ambiguous as to whether or not you're taking a 3rd. great guide though.
Great guide right here! I love the thinking behind this build and the two variants provide a whole lot of possibilities! Really sweet stuff. I think personally, for me in Plat/Diamond that I can probably get away with the robo variant more often but who knows? I really like the idea of making it look like you're taking a third behind a bunch of phoenixes when instead you're gearing up for a timing attack. I mean, as long as you deny scouting you could end up just completely catching your opponent off guard for a really disgusting push.
Now I just need a decent PvP build and I'll finally be getting my HotS ladder on! Being unemployed does allow for a more starcraft-oriented schedule, this much is certain =)
Since there isn't any VOD of this build on Red City, you might want to add Yonghwa vs BBoongBoong [GSTL W8 Set 2]: http://www.gomtv.net/2013gstls1/vod/80052 (Magic Johnson without Stargate)
A part of me just dies when I read this. Why introduce more allins to the population of Starcraft? =( The game is sad enough already with the countless black and white games.
On June 12 2013 07:30 Thalandros wrote: A part of me just dies when I read this. Why introduce more allins to the population of Starcraft? =( The game is sad enough already with the countless black and white games.
Because it's not "exactly" an all in--more a metagame response due to shifting responses.
On June 12 2013 06:59 Mahtasooma wrote: Someone did this on ladder to me today... died horribly to muta ling off of 3 base. Snipe collossi with muta, go in with lings, ?????, profit.
Evidently they didn't open the stargate variant of the build...I just can't see myself opening with mutas when there are already five phoenix out...
On June 12 2013 07:37 Gool wrote: Because Protoss is designed around all-ins. If protoss were dependant on lategame their win rate would not be even close to 50%.
Pretty much this unfortunately. All-in's is what keeps protoss somewhat competitive. The threat of a powerful all-in is what also allows them to be economically greedy as well. If you play a standard ultra conservative style like Rain, you are actually behind on your opponent almost every time - and generally no one else wants to play it like that (probably because they can't win like Rain lol).
But anyways, great guide! I haven't done this build yet, I'll give it a try soon though!!
a) They are far, far more optimized. People used to hit after 12 minutes (see Ace at the IEM he won in 2010), nowadays 10-11 is the norm. b) They are done without a stargate as well. c) They include immortals and/or a warp prism, which was never the case back then.
I agree it's nothing gamechanging like the Soultrain was, but it's this is a nice build for someone to learn regardless, and it's interesting how it was completely shifted out of the metagame, only to come back stronger than ever.
On June 12 2013 08:28 Teoita wrote: These newer colossus pushes are different because
a) They are far, far more optimized. People used to hit after 12 minutes (see Ace at the IEM he won in 2010), nowadays 10-11 is the norm. b) They are done without a stargate as well. c) They include immortals and/or a warp prism, which was never the case back then.
Let's be careful what we say here. On a rare occasion I still use Naniwa's 2 Base Colossus build that I used to use all the time(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296450). It hits at 12 minutes, but it features some early Zealot harass followed up by 4 Gate Zealot harass, followed up by Warp Prism Zealot harass and then finally, the push. That old push also included a Warprism and was done without a Stargate too.
All that harass potential to deny the third base and damage/delay the Zerg economy is often worth the one minute delay (though Naniwa's push comes without the 2 Immortals, but as hellokitty shows, those aren't key to the push). It is a far more complex build order and harder to execute, so to say this is some kind of optimization just isn't true. This build is just a back to the basics Colossus all-in, done in barebones fashion.
The reason this works so well today is because people are trying to defend with Hydralisks and Zerglings. As noted in the weaknesses section, even considering any "optimizations" of 2 base Colossus builds, old mass Roach builds will roll over this.
For all zerg players who have trouble with this. I recommend two builds. Either a 13/12 gas pool into mass speedling all-in. Or 10 pool and pray they went nexus first. You'd be surprised how many people just die.
On June 12 2013 04:18 HelloSon wrote: Why Magic Johnson instead of Oscar Robertson?
Thats what i was going to say! Nice job though. Im glad TL strat recognizes that the protoss race needs a little bit of help =D
I see your point, although the Magic Johnson name is pretty hilarious.If you're going to name it after Oscar Robertson you'd have to at least call it the "Big O".
On June 12 2013 10:30 stuchiu wrote: For all zerg players who have trouble with this. I recommend two builds. Either a 13/12 gas pool into mass speedling all-in. Or 10 pool and pray they went nexus first. You'd be surprised how many people just die.
Macro response please? I would prefer not to all in every game (or I would play Toss :p).
2 base Muta seems to do decent vs this from my limited experience.
Stephano 12 minute roach max works well too, depending on the map. And you can macro out of a 10 pool just fine.
I was about to post a long rant but I don't want to pollute this thread more than it already has been. Some of you are awfully negative and if you are one, then read this spoiler. It blows my mind how irrational and spoiled some people are.
On June 12 2013 04:18 vNmMasterT wrote: TL strategy = protoss all-in/gimmick library
On June 12 2013 05:28 FHC Nex wrote: Another Protoss allin (the race that pretty much has all-in in its name) and its on front page on teamliquid? Well thanks for improving the game.
:|
On June 12 2013 07:30 Thalandros wrote: A part of me just dies when I read this. Why introduce more allins to the population of Starcraft? =( The game is sad enough already with the countless black and white games.
On June 12 2013 13:50 J.E.G. wrote: Would it be possible to get something spotlighted besides protoss all-ins?
On June 12 2013 15:55 TaShadan wrote: More allins? Thx
You guys are ungrateful and spoiled. You act like Team Liquid is paying these guys to go and write guides and they were feeling lazy (or hateful) and produced something subpar.
The TL Strat forum highlighted guides are first written by volunteer, then edited by other volunteer, given graphics by another volunteer, put into html code by yet another volunteer, and finally posted. It takes a lot of effort at each level. It can take a team of 6 unpaid people many hours to produce a short guide that is of this quality.
It is a fact that work on this guide started on May 14th on the writing side (Teoita and Alejandrisha are the writers here). A final draft (call this the working beta) is done around May 26th. Wo1food now steps in and starts to create the HTML which takes normal text and transforms it into the style that we have grown to appreciate from the TL Strat forum crew. He is done with that on June 6th. This takes a document that was 8931 characters and turns it into one that is 11776. During this time a fellow by the name of Naganis has created and finished the banner that you see at the top of the guide. On June 9th Teoita adds game analysis of 9 additional games to help flesh out the guide in a broader sense. Then, on June 11th, Monk steps in a creates a true final draft. This draft looks 99.99% like the finished form does. Hayl_Storm steps in and does a once over read looking for grammar and spelling issues.
Six people, from three countries (USA, Canada, and Italy) worked for free for almost a month to produce you a high quality product and all you guys can do is complain about the choice of strategy that the writer(s) decided to focus on? Getting featured as a TL Strat forum writer isn't about following some series of rules in how you choose what to write about, its about producing accurate and usable content.
If you freeloaders want something else to get spotlighted then open up some vods, grab your pen and paper, start taking notes and prepare to be surprised by the amount of work it takes. Like you all said, this is a article/guide on an all-in and, like I just said, it took a lot of effort from many people to get it complete and done. The article was based on eight vods and two sets of timings (stargate or no stargate).
Now imagine the amount of increased effort and time it takes to create a guide on a style that has multiple deviations, many times the number of vods for sources, and isn't for the race that the writer plays.
I cant believe how ungrateful some people can be. This is a work of passion by the people involved and if you can't say something nice, then go the heck away and don't post negative shit in the thread and rain on their parade.
On June 12 2013 17:40 Incognoto wrote: It's very well written, I have to admit. How long did it take to write?
It would be nice to contact pro players and collaborate with them to continue to make great guides like this one.
Vaderseven, the negative doods are most likely the same people referenced in the intro of the guide. I like to think i caused them to ragequit even more, which is fine by me
Also, we do have some pros in the TL strat team actually. So far they have been more involved with reviewing than writing though.
On June 12 2013 12:56 NiHiLuSsc2 wrote: only real basketball fans will actually get the magic joke in all its furor
Not really, triple double how hard is to get that... But real basketball fans would know that then it should be actually called Oscar Robertson.
And btw hate that it got published, I've been doing this already... Now zergs will know how to defend better as way more tosses will be doing this now.
On June 12 2013 08:28 Teoita wrote: These newer colossus pushes are different because
a) They are far, far more optimized. People used to hit after 12 minutes (see Ace at the IEM he won in 2010), nowadays 10-11 is the norm. b) They are done without a stargate as well. c) They include immortals and/or a warp prism, which was never the case back then.
Let's be careful what we say here. On a rare occasion I still use Naniwa's 2 Base Colossus build that I used to use all the time(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296450). It hits at 12 minutes, but it features some early Zealot harass followed up by 4 Gate Zealot harass, followed up by Warp Prism Zealot harass and then finally, the push. That old push also included a Warprism and was done without a Stargate too.
All that harass potential to deny the third base and damage/delay the Zerg economy is often worth the one minute delay (though Naniwa's push comes without the 2 Immortals, but as hellokitty shows, those aren't key to the push). It is a far more complex build order and harder to execute, so to say this is some kind of optimization just isn't true. This build is just a back to the basics Colossus all-in, done in barebones fashion.
The reason this works so well today is because people are trying to defend with Hydralisks and Zerglings. As noted in the weaknesses section, even considering any "optimizations" of 2 base Colossus builds, old mass Roach builds will roll over this.
If that's the build i'm thinking about, i'm also pretty sure he disegned it to (blind) counter IM's roach/ling>muta build which Nestea and Losira were doing all the time, since Naniwa played Nestea at MLG and whatnot a bunch of times, so the reasoning behind the builds are different.
I agree that old mass roach builds are really good vs this (although i have beaten people roach maxing simply because they were worse than me), but as posted in the intro, that's not a good reason to say the build isn't valid.
edit: also at the people saying "I dont like this getting published, now people will know how to defend it": anyone watching sc2 would know this build exists. When it comes to 2base all-ins vs Z, it's less about knowing a build is coming and more about the execution on both sides. If you are the better player and know how to engage well, you will still beat him. Builds don't have to be secrets catching people off guard to be strong, all-ins included.
On June 12 2013 12:56 NiHiLuSsc2 wrote: only real basketball fans will actually get the magic joke in all its furor
Not really, triple double how hard is to get that... But real basketball fans would know that then it should be actually called Oscar Robertson.
And btw hate that it got published, I've been doing this already... Now zergs will know how to defend better as way more tosses will be doing this now.
it's the magic johnson because 'triple double trouble' was one of his nicknames. one he got for having by far the most playoff triple doubles, at least since they started recording steals and blocks. chamberlain and russel probably had more than magic or robertson, but that doesn't matter because they weren't nicknamed 'triple double trouble.'
On June 12 2013 18:04 vaderseven wrote: I was about to post a long rant but I don't want to pollute this thread more than it already has been. Some of you are awfully negative and if you are one, then read this spoiler. It blows my mind how irrational and spoiled some people are.
On June 12 2013 04:18 vNmMasterT wrote: TL strategy = protoss all-in/gimmick library
On June 12 2013 05:28 FHC Nex wrote: Another Protoss allin (the race that pretty much has all-in in its name) and its on front page on teamliquid? Well thanks for improving the game.
:|
On June 12 2013 07:30 Thalandros wrote: A part of me just dies when I read this. Why introduce more allins to the population of Starcraft? =( The game is sad enough already with the countless black and white games.
On June 12 2013 13:50 J.E.G. wrote: Would it be possible to get something spotlighted besides protoss all-ins?
On June 12 2013 15:55 TaShadan wrote: More allins? Thx
You guys are ungrateful and spoiled. You act like Team Liquid is paying these guys to go and write guides and they were feeling lazy (or hateful) and produced something subpar.
The TL Strat forum highlighted guides are first written by volunteer, then edited by other volunteer, given graphics by another volunteer, put into html code by yet another volunteer, and finally posted. It takes a lot of effort at each level. It can take a team of 6 unpaid people many hours to produce a short guide that is of this quality.
It is a fact that work on this guide started on May 14th on the writing side (Teoita and Alejandrisha are the writers here). A final draft (call this the working beta) is done around May 26th. Wo1food now steps in and starts to create the HTML which takes normal text and transforms it into the style that we have grown to appreciate from the TL Strat forum crew. He is done with that on June 6th. This takes a document that was 8931 characters and turns it into one that is 11776. During this time a fellow by the name of Naganis has created and finished the banner that you see at the top of the guide. On June 9th Teoita adds game analysis of 9 additional games to help flesh out the guide in a broader sense. Then, on June 11th, Monk steps in a creates a true final draft. This draft looks 99.99% like the finished form does. Hayl_Storm steps in and does a once over read looking for grammar and spelling issues.
Six people, from three countries (USA, Canada, and Italy) worked for free for almost a month to produce you a high quality product and all you guys can do is complain about the choice of strategy that the writer(s) decided to focus on? Getting featured as a TL Strat forum writer isn't about following some series of rules in how you choose what to write about, its about producing accurate and usable content.
If you freeloaders want something else to get spotlighted then open up some vods, grab your pen and paper, start taking notes and prepare to be surprised by the amount of work it takes. Like you all said, this is a article/guide on an all-in and, like I just said, it took a lot of effort from many people to get it complete and done. The article was based on eight vods and two sets of timings (stargate or no stargate).
Now imagine the amount of increased effort and time it takes to create a guide on a style that has multiple deviations, many times the number of vods for sources, and isn't for the race that the writer plays.
I cant believe how ungrateful some people can be. This is a work of passion by the people involved and if you can't say something nice, then go the heck away and don't post negative shit in the thread and rain on their parade.
On June 12 2013 17:40 Incognoto wrote: It's very well written, I have to admit. How long did it take to write?
It would be nice to contact pro players and collaborate with them to continue to make great guides like this one.
Read the spoiler. I actually break it down!
I honestly appreciate that people take the time to write an extended guide on how to do specific strategies, I really do. That doesn't take away however that many games will be one-sided (from either side) from now on, not just in custom/tourney games (Because pro's should already be doing this, stay ahead of the meta!), but also a LOT on ladder. Some variation would be nice (In the kind of strategy that's being put out there).
Again, I appreciate the work people do very much, doesn't mean I approve/like everything that's written.
Let's be careful what we say here. On a rare occasion I still use Naniwa's 2 Base Colossus build that I used to use all the time(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296450). It hits at 12 minutes, but it features some early Zealot harass followed up by 4 Gate Zealot harass, followed up by Warp Prism Zealot harass and then finally, the push. That old push also included a Warprism and was done without a Stargate too.
All that harass potential to deny the third base and damage/delay the Zerg economy is often worth the one minute delay (though Naniwa's push comes without the 2 Immortals, but as hellokitty shows, those aren't key to the push). It is a far more complex build order and harder to execute, so to say this is some kind of optimization just isn't true. This build is just a back to the basics Colossus all-in, done in barebones fashion.
Wasn't Naniwa's push from that time period also based around a variation of the +1 four gate stuff that was super popular at time time? Wasn't it also based on hitting specific timings that manipulated the standard zerg play of that time (early zealot poke to force zerglings which then have to face +1 zealots which force roaches all of which sets him back from hitting the needed drone count to support a switch to 3 base muta... which is when the colsi/zealot/sentry/prism attack hits)?
Both that build and this build are based on manipulating the standard current metagame, but that metagame has changed from then to now so both builds are completely different.
Stage 1 Naniwa - 2 Zealot poke to force more lings than normal Stage 1 2/2/2 - Single zealot to block wall and stalker to deny scouting. No poke
Stage 2 Naniwa - +1 4 Gate Zealot pressure to punish ling count and force roaches. Helps build appear normal as this is standard meta. Stage 2 2/2/2 - Stargate tech to appear normal, deny scouting, and do some harass OR fast robo tech in order to make next stage hit faster
Stage 3 Naniwa - 12 minute 2 Colsi, 8 Sentry, and mass +1 Zealot. Push timed to hit when a Zerg will finally be catching up in economy and attempting a transition to muta. Punishes the Zerg who is still on roach/ling and has not been pumping units. Stage 3 2/2/2 - 11:30 push if Stargate and 9:50 if none, +1 attack, 2 colsi and 2 immortals, 8 Sentry. Push timed to hit before a zerg can transition from ling/hydra into ling/hydra/swarm host/viper/ultra.
Stage 1 and 2 are radically different. Naniwa's colsi push from that mlg was based on a very smart and assertive use of early zealots to force units while the 2/2/2 is based on a safety zealot and scout denying stalker. Naniwa cared much more about forcing units via direct map pressure while the 2/2/2 cares more about playing the cards close to the chest. Stage 2 for both styles is built around the most common 2 base plays of their time. The intent in stage 2 is totally different in Naniwas build when compared to the 2/2/2. Naniwa was keeping true to his theme of forcing units directly by putting the zerg in a reactive defensive mindset. The 2/2/2 is focused still on keeping information hidden and the main push veiled.
Stage 3 of each build is about hitting a timing when the Zerg is making a major mid game transition. Both the old and the new build feature ~8 Sentrys and 2 Colsi with supporting ground units. The way the protoss plays out the game leading to this attack and the exact composition of the attack are very different and reflect the changing times of the matchup.
To say its a revamp is weird. It fills a similar role in the arsenal of build orders for a toss player (that of a 2 base timing push designed to have an incredibly hard to deal with unit composition that hits during a transitional period for the zerg). Both builds allow the protoss to execute some control over the corners the zerg will feel safe in cutting in subsequent matches. You can not make the leap from that build to this one though. There is nothing about forcing extra lings, into counter lings hard while forcing roaches, into hitting a weakened (due to forced units) pre muta timing that should compare to playing a slightly passive fast expand into a standard style of teching while denying scouting and trying to suggest to the zerg you want to take a 3rd and then hitting him as he is transitioning to late game.
It is extremely reasonable to say that the protoss that first did this 2/2/2 build sat down with the goal of hitting a timing attack while trying to mask the appearance of trying to hit one until the last second. It is also reasonable to say that when Naniwa made his build up he sat down and thought of a way to force out units at several key timings when a Zerg would normally be powering while gearing up to hit a timing that hits before a big tech switch. No one trying to make the 2/2/2 would start with the Naniwa build and modify it till it was as seen in the vods in this guide.
Strategies are solutions to problems. Naniwa had a different problem than the one this build solves. Simple as that!
On June 12 2013 12:56 NiHiLuSsc2 wrote: only real basketball fans will actually get the magic joke in all its furor
Not really, triple double how hard is to get that... But real basketball fans would know that then it should be actually called Oscar Robertson.
And btw hate that it got published, I've been doing this already... Now zergs will know how to defend better as way more tosses will be doing this now.
it's the magic johnson because 'triple double trouble' was one of his nicknames. one he got for having by far the most playoff triple doubles, at least since they started recording steals and blocks. chamberlain and russel probably had more than magic or robertson, but that doesn't matter because they weren't nicknamed 'triple double trouble.'
And oscar was named mr. Triple double and is the only player ever to average triple double for whole season.
On June 12 2013 08:28 Teoita wrote: These newer colossus pushes are different because
a) They are far, far more optimized. People used to hit after 12 minutes (see Ace at the IEM he won in 2010), nowadays 10-11 is the norm. b) They are done without a stargate as well. c) They include immortals and/or a warp prism, which was never the case back then.
Let's be careful what we say here. On a rare occasion I still use Naniwa's 2 Base Colossus build that I used to use all the time(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296450). It hits at 12 minutes, but it features some early Zealot harass followed up by 4 Gate Zealot harass, followed up by Warp Prism Zealot harass and then finally, the push. That old push also included a Warprism and was done without a Stargate too.
All that harass potential to deny the third base and damage/delay the Zerg economy is often worth the one minute delay (though Naniwa's push comes without the 2 Immortals, but as hellokitty shows, those aren't key to the push). It is a far more complex build order and harder to execute, so to say this is some kind of optimization just isn't true. This build is just a back to the basics Colossus all-in, done in barebones fashion.
The reason this works so well today is because people are trying to defend with Hydralisks and Zerglings. As noted in the weaknesses section, even considering any "optimizations" of 2 base Colossus builds, old mass Roach builds will roll over this.
If that's the build i'm thinking about, i'm also pretty sure he disegned it to (blind) counter IM's roach/ling>muta build which Nestea and Losira were doing all the time, since Naniwa played Nestea at MLG and whatnot a bunch of times, so the reasoning behind the builds are different.
I agree that old mass roach builds are really good vs this (although i have beaten people roach maxing simply because they were worse than me), but as posted in the intro, that's not a good reason to say the build isn't valid.
edit: also at the people saying "I dont like this getting published, now people will know how to defend it": anyone watching sc2 would know this build exists. When it comes to 2base all-ins vs Z, it's less about knowing a build is coming and more about the execution on both sides. If you are the better player and know how to engage well, you will still beat him. Builds don't have to be secrets catching people off guard to be strong, all-ins included.
One of the good things about guides like these is that this build has counters but the counters also have counters. This is the essence of a strategy game. If, through this build/guide, more Protoss start using this all-in, then good zerg players will figure out that the old roach builds are still completely viable strategies that are good to know. This increases the overall diversity of the amount of strategies that can be used in the current meta game, which is actually a pretty good thing. Players with good overall knowledge and are capable of strategic scouting and decision making are the ones who will thrive whenever good guides like these are posted.
It's one of the reasons I love to browse the strategy section. Just so much game knowledge lying around everywhere. Even if some guides aren't "viable" at the highest level of play, once you figure out why that's the case, you improve your general knowledge of the game and yourself. Those guides are still great sources of information.
I feel like on EU High Master Ladder, the zerg players are more roach ling focussed in the midgame or even mutas, so I dont feel not so confident to play this. First reason is, that they will check for your third, no matter what, so they should smell it, and when playing stargate to deny a overlordscout, they will send some lings. Also with a phoenix-opening, they will smell it when seeing no third and just produce roach ling, which can hold off any all in when its good positioned.
I am Protoss player and this is a super build that works very often on ladder...however...if you are a zerg player...My advice for all Protoss match ups is: Drone, Drone, Drone...Scout, Scout, Scout, Add tech buildings, Drone, Drone, Drone, REACT...
The perfect game to illustrate this is Parting (the master of this build) V Soulkey (the master reactionary Zerg) GSL Round of 16 last season...
The correct reaction by the Zerg to this build is mass muta... Surprise Soulkey executes and wins...
This is very similar to the WOL version just with some small changes. Quite nice build. Im pretty sure that im, gonna look more into it later Thanks TL.
On June 12 2013 18:04 vaderseven wrote: I was about to post a long rant but I don't want to pollute this thread more than it already has been. Some of you are awfully negative and if you are one, then read this spoiler. It blows my mind how irrational and spoiled some people are.
On June 12 2013 04:18 vNmMasterT wrote: TL strategy = protoss all-in/gimmick library
On June 12 2013 05:28 FHC Nex wrote: Another Protoss allin (the race that pretty much has all-in in its name) and its on front page on teamliquid? Well thanks for improving the game.
:|
On June 12 2013 07:30 Thalandros wrote: A part of me just dies when I read this. Why introduce more allins to the population of Starcraft? =( The game is sad enough already with the countless black and white games.
On June 12 2013 13:50 J.E.G. wrote: Would it be possible to get something spotlighted besides protoss all-ins?
On June 12 2013 15:55 TaShadan wrote: More allins? Thx
You guys are ungrateful and spoiled. You act like Team Liquid is paying these guys to go and write guides and they were feeling lazy (or hateful) and produced something subpar.
The TL Strat forum highlighted guides are first written by volunteer, then edited by other volunteer, given graphics by another volunteer, put into html code by yet another volunteer, and finally posted. It takes a lot of effort at each level. It can take a team of 6 unpaid people many hours to produce a short guide that is of this quality.
It is a fact that work on this guide started on May 14th on the writing side (Teoita and Alejandrisha are the writers here). A final draft (call this the working beta) is done around May 26th. Wo1food now steps in and starts to create the HTML which takes normal text and transforms it into the style that we have grown to appreciate from the TL Strat forum crew. He is done with that on June 6th. This takes a document that was 8931 characters and turns it into one that is 11776. During this time a fellow by the name of Naganis has created and finished the banner that you see at the top of the guide. On June 9th Teoita adds game analysis of 9 additional games to help flesh out the guide in a broader sense. Then, on June 11th, Monk steps in a creates a true final draft. This draft looks 99.99% like the finished form does. Hayl_Storm steps in and does a once over read looking for grammar and spelling issues.
Six people, from three countries (USA, Canada, and Italy) worked for free for almost a month to produce you a high quality product and all you guys can do is complain about the choice of strategy that the writer(s) decided to focus on? Getting featured as a TL Strat forum writer isn't about following some series of rules in how you choose what to write about, its about producing accurate and usable content.
If you freeloaders want something else to get spotlighted then open up some vods, grab your pen and paper, start taking notes and prepare to be surprised by the amount of work it takes. Like you all said, this is a article/guide on an all-in and, like I just said, it took a lot of effort from many people to get it complete and done. The article was based on eight vods and two sets of timings (stargate or no stargate).
Now imagine the amount of increased effort and time it takes to create a guide on a style that has multiple deviations, many times the number of vods for sources, and isn't for the race that the writer plays.
I cant believe how ungrateful some people can be. This is a work of passion by the people involved and if you can't say something nice, then go the heck away and don't post negative shit in the thread and rain on their parade.
On June 12 2013 17:40 Incognoto wrote: It's very well written, I have to admit. How long did it take to write?
It would be nice to contact pro players and collaborate with them to continue to make great guides like this one.
Read the spoiler. I actually break it down!
I honestly appreciate that people take the time to write an extended guide on how to do specific strategies, I really do. That doesn't take away however that many games will be one-sided (from either side) from now on, not just in custom/tourney games (Because pro's should already be doing this, stay ahead of the meta!), but also a LOT on ladder. Some variation would be nice (In the kind of strategy that's being put out there).
Again, I appreciate the work people do very much, doesn't mean I approve/like everything that's written.
This build will contribute .001% to actual gameplay on the battlenet servers. Versions of this build already exist and are used by pros and on ladder. The number of people who will read about this build and execute it on ladder, which has over 500K players, is extremely low. The odds they'll do so each game is lower. The odds they'll do so against you are even yet lower. And in the event everyone started doing this all of the time, it has a counter -- do the old Stephano roach max, so you should have no problems beating it. Further if you think this build alone will shift the metagame on the ladder from an aggressive all-in build culture to a macro only one is for all of the above reasons extremely unlikely. Most people who don't all in aren't going to start exclusively all inning because of this and those that do, well, they were going to all in anyway so this guide doesn't change much of anything.
There's really no basis for your opinion and as a result it's stupid and arrogant to whine about a well written, funny and informative guide even if you're just expressing your honest opinion.
I find it difficult to get my immortals out fast enough if I build my robo bay and gateway units on time without cutting probes. I must doing something else wrong...
On June 12 2013 08:28 Teoita wrote: These newer colossus pushes are different because
a) They are far, far more optimized. People used to hit after 12 minutes (see Ace at the IEM he won in 2010), nowadays 10-11 is the norm. b) They are done without a stargate as well. c) They include immortals and/or a warp prism, which was never the case back then.
Let's be careful what we say here. On a rare occasion I still use Naniwa's 2 Base Colossus build that I used to use all the time(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296450). It hits at 12 minutes, but it features some early Zealot harass followed up by 4 Gate Zealot harass, followed up by Warp Prism Zealot harass and then finally, the push. That old push also included a Warprism and was done without a Stargate too.
All that harass potential to deny the third base and damage/delay the Zerg economy is often worth the one minute delay (though Naniwa's push comes without the 2 Immortals, but as hellokitty shows, those aren't key to the push). It is a far more complex build order and harder to execute, so to say this is some kind of optimization just isn't true. This build is just a back to the basics Colossus all-in, done in barebones fashion.
The reason this works so well today is because people are trying to defend with Hydralisks and Zerglings. As noted in the weaknesses section, even considering any "optimizations" of 2 base Colossus builds, old mass Roach builds will roll over this.
If that's the build i'm thinking about, i'm also pretty sure he disegned it to (blind) counter IM's roach/ling>muta build which Nestea and Losira were doing all the time, since Naniwa played Nestea at MLG and whatnot a bunch of times, so the reasoning behind the builds are different.
I agree that old mass roach builds are really good vs this (although i have beaten people roach maxing simply because they were worse than me), but as posted in the intro, that's not a good reason to say the build isn't valid.
edit: also at the people saying "I dont like this getting published, now people will know how to defend it": anyone watching sc2 would know this build exists. When it comes to 2base all-ins vs Z, it's less about knowing a build is coming and more about the execution on both sides. If you are the better player and know how to engage well, you will still beat him. Builds don't have to be secrets catching people off guard to be strong, all-ins included.
My point was that there were old 2 base Colossus builds out there that had a Warp Prism and weren't coming from a Stargate opening, and that this build wasn't some amazing optimization of any of those. It is just a barebones rush to 2 Immortals and 2 Colossus, and then an attack. It is working because people are using Hydralisks and Zerglings, which are terrible against Colossus, not because of any optimization. And that is why we see different variations working too (with 1 or 2 Immortals, with or without a Stargate), with the similarity being that the build has Colossus.
On June 12 2013 22:50 boxerfred wrote: Great, metagame moved from 2base allin to 2base allin.
Fuck zvp, fuck the game.
I wonder what the Protoss winrate would be without all-ins...
I think if somehow all-ins were removed from the game, Protoss would suffer the most. That says a lot about how Protoss is designed, if we can't compete in macro games.
I killed someone doing this build with a burrowed roach (no speed) + speedling all-in off two base. Then I killed someone who played super greedy as Z with this build. I like the build itself.
On June 12 2013 04:11 LeafBlower wrote: i've been trying this build for a while but haven't found that much success because i suck at executing it. i think it's super important to deny all scouting and make it ambiguous as to whether or not you're taking a 3rd. great guide though.
Let's be careful what we say here. On a rare occasion I still use Naniwa's 2 Base Colossus build that I used to use all the time(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296450). It hits at 12 minutes, but it features some early Zealot harass followed up by 4 Gate Zealot harass, followed up by Warp Prism Zealot harass and then finally, the push. That old push also included a Warprism and was done without a Stargate too.
All that harass potential to deny the third base and damage/delay the Zerg economy is often worth the one minute delay (though Naniwa's push comes without the 2 Immortals, but as hellokitty shows, those aren't key to the push). It is a far more complex build order and harder to execute, so to say this is some kind of optimization just isn't true. This build is just a back to the basics Colossus all-in, done in barebones fashion.
Wasn't Naniwa's push from that time period also based around a variation of the +1 four gate stuff that was super popular at time time? Wasn't it also based on hitting specific timings that manipulated the standard zerg play of that time (early zealot poke to force zerglings which then have to face +1 zealots which force roaches all of which sets him back from hitting the needed drone count to support a switch to 3 base muta... which is when the colsi/zealot/sentry/prism attack hits)?
Both that build and this build are based on manipulating the standard current metagame, but that metagame has changed from then to now so both builds are completely different.
Stage 1 Naniwa - 2 Zealot poke to force more lings than normal Stage 1 2/2/2 - Single zealot to block wall and stalker to deny scouting. No poke
Stage 2 Naniwa - +1 4 Gate Zealot pressure to punish ling count and force roaches. Helps build appear normal as this is standard meta. Stage 2 2/2/2 - Stargate tech to appear normal, deny scouting, and do some harass OR fast robo tech in order to make next stage hit faster
Stage 3 Naniwa - 12 minute 2 Colsi, 8 Sentry, and mass +1 Zealot. Push timed to hit when a Zerg will finally be catching up in economy and attempting a transition to muta. Punishes the Zerg who is still on roach/ling and has not been pumping units. Stage 3 2/2/2 - 11:30 push if Stargate and 9:50 if none, +1 attack, 2 colsi and 2 immortals, 8 Sentry. Push timed to hit before a zerg can transition from ling/hydra into ling/hydra/swarm host/viper/ultra.
Stage 1 and 2 are radically different. Naniwa's colsi push from that mlg was based on a very smart and assertive use of early zealots to force units while the 2/2/2 is based on a safety zealot and scout denying stalker. Naniwa cared much more about forcing units via direct map pressure while the 2/2/2 cares more about playing the cards close to the chest. Stage 2 for both styles is built around the most common 2 base plays of their time. The intent in stage 2 is totally different in Naniwas build when compared to the 2/2/2. Naniwa was keeping true to his theme of forcing units directly by putting the zerg in a reactive defensive mindset. The 2/2/2 is focused still on keeping information hidden and the main push veiled.
Stage 3 of each build is about hitting a timing when the Zerg is making a major mid game transition. Both the old and the new build feature ~8 Sentrys and 2 Colsi with supporting ground units. The way the protoss plays out the game leading to this attack and the exact composition of the attack are very different and reflect the changing times of the matchup.
To say its a revamp is weird. It fills a similar role in the arsenal of build orders for a toss player (that of a 2 base timing push designed to have an incredibly hard to deal with unit composition that hits during a transitional period for the zerg). Both builds allow the protoss to execute some control over the corners the zerg will feel safe in cutting in subsequent matches. You can not make the leap from that build to this one though. There is nothing about forcing extra lings, into counter lings hard while forcing roaches, into hitting a weakened (due to forced units) pre muta timing that should compare to playing a slightly passive fast expand into a standard style of teching while denying scouting and trying to suggest to the zerg you want to take a 3rd and then hitting him as he is transitioning to late game.
It is extremely reasonable to say that the protoss that first did this 2/2/2 build sat down with the goal of hitting a timing attack while trying to mask the appearance of trying to hit one until the last second. It is also reasonable to say that when Naniwa made his build up he sat down and thought of a way to force out units at several key timings when a Zerg would normally be powering while gearing up to hit a timing that hits before a big tech switch. No one trying to make the 2/2/2 would start with the Naniwa build and modify it till it was as seen in the vods in this guide.
Strategies are solutions to problems. Naniwa had a different problem than the one this build solves. Simple as that!
As I posted above, my point wasn't to show that this is some evolution of Naniwa's build. They are very different. My point was to show that this is a very simple build that abuses the fact that Zerg players are using Hydralisks, but I wanted to correct what Teoita said:
On June 12 2013 08:28 Teoita wrote: These newer colossus pushes are different because
a) They are far, far more optimized. People used to hit after 12 minutes (see Ace at the IEM he won in 2010), nowadays 10-11 is the norm. b) They are done without a stargate as well. c) They include immortals and/or a warp prism, which was never the case back then.
I agree it's nothing gamechanging like the Soultrain was, but it's this is a nice build for someone to learn regardless, and it's interesting how it was completely shifted out of the metagame, only to come back stronger than ever.
Naniwa's build was done without a Stargate (b) and included a Warp Prism (c). And it is just one example of such a build! A lot of the old 2 base Colossus builds work very nicely now, simply because Hydralisks and Zerglings are bad versus Colossus. I will say that the faster pushes can be more effective, however the early +1 harass can also be quite damaging to any player skipping Roaches. Note hellokitty versus Suppy, a +1 Zealot push would have been quite effective (+1 Zealots would have been marching into his third against slow Lings, add in a MSC and it's a slaughter!). Finally, as an side note, Naniwa's build moves out with +1/+1, not just +1.
Ok let me rephrase: before the Soultrain was perfected, none ever, EVER, went robo before warpgate/stalker/+1 and focused EXCLUSIVELY on robo units to kill zergs. Even Naniwa's build started off with +1 zealot pressure as you said.
The build itself is actually ridiculously hard to execute, many depends on forcefielding, positioning, and straight up luck(your opponent might make a mistake of engage too soon or made too many units and such) and you being a superior player overall. I honestly don't recommend this build(ESP for ladder because people do blind shit like muta all in every game) but instead to just actually practice the build order itself and the positioning of units and forcefield usage. For basic Protoss players who wants to have another build under their belt
On June 13 2013 02:32 Teoita wrote: Ok let me rephrase: before the Soultrain was perfected, none ever, EVER, went robo before warpgate/stalker/+1 and focused EXCLUSIVELY on robo units to kill zergs. Even Naniwa's build started off with +1 zealot pressure as you said.
Yeah, that is the real difference between this push and older pushes.
could have also named if the lebron james for the 21st century sc2 player but then again that would mean your have to choke at the very end of the game
On June 14 2013 04:10 lorestarcraft wrote: I think this build is designed for a meta that no longer exists, at least on ladder. I want a guide to stop fast (15-20 min) Ultra maxes.
This should hit before any 15-20min hive-tech window even begins to open.
From my personal experience, the mass ling/ultra build gets destroyed horribly by this as lings alone (or supported by corruptors) can't stop your army.
i was basically never all inning against zerg anymore, found this guide and i've been absoluely LOVING this build, good guide man, lovin' the triple double
On June 14 2013 08:17 Teoita wrote: From my personal experience, the mass ling/ultra build gets destroyed horribly by this as lings alone (or supported by corruptors) can't stop your army.
I was up again someone doing similar on ladder yesterday. (mass lings/bane into muta/corruptors (after failing with muta's since my 2x stargate 6phx) and into lings/ultras.)
I would say that timing (11/12mins to push out before his army (ultras) gets out of control is crucial.
My army consist of zero colo melts his army and of cos, good forcefield to prevent getting surround by bane/lings. Once his mass lings is clean up, ez win.
sentries/chargelots +2 ground/archon (i preferred DT transform into archon), phx and mass voids.
the result is -2 as you take away 2 from 2 (2-2=0) and then again take away 2. -2 is the result or the respect you get from me (in Points) when you allin me on the ladder like this. Allins are lame.
the result is -2 as you take away 2 from 2 (2-2=0) and then again take away 2. -2 is the result or the respect you get from me (in Points) when you allin me on the ladder like this. Allins are lame.
The math is that PuMa x 2 = 2-2-2 because he is known for his very strong 1-1-1 build
On June 14 2013 04:10 lorestarcraft wrote: I think this build is designed for a meta that no longer exists, at least on ladder. I want a guide to stop fast (15-20 min) Ultra maxes.
This should hit before any 15-20min hive-tech window even begins to open.
The thing with TL strat releases is, it's basically impossible to release replays of the strategies we write about because our policy is to only reference professional games, and these days very very few tournaments release replay packs.
For this article in particular, i personally took a look at the Dreamhack replay pack (afaik the only one released in hots so far by a major tournament), but there were zero games with this build.
On June 15 2013 07:40 Teoita wrote: The thing with TL strat releases is, it's basically impossible to release replays of the strategies we write about because our policy is to only reference professional games, and these days very very few tournaments release replay packs.
For this article in particular, i personally took a look at the Dreamhack replay pack (afaik the only one released in hots so far by a major tournament), but there were zero games with this build.
That make's a lot of sense.
We need hero to use this build a couple times for his next pack. ^.^
On June 12 2013 04:11 graNite wrote: great, another protoss allin.... so lame, try to bring some fun to the ladder, not this useless crap!
all ins are fun! : D
That's only when you are the one doing it I think ? I would like to see you after a succesful 10 pool.... Probably raging on the Zerg for being a "Nub".
Anyway, I have some Protoss friends, and they all whine that they have to all-in so much, I say F-you. You don't need to all-in as Toss, you just choose too...... I get that with the way you are fed all-in strategies, you would think you didn't have another choice ( Not all toss play all-in, I know ).
I would just like to express my gratitude to all the TL. strategy writing staff; You guys are doing a great job.... ( insert Kappa )
Edit: Also I don't think we will see anything other than Protoss soon
On May 13 2013 17:20 Teoita wrote:
Also lies, we are so not gonna write about races that aren't manly.
On June 12 2013 04:11 graNite wrote: great, another protoss allin.... so lame, try to bring some fun to the ladder, not this useless crap!
all ins are fun! : D
That's only when you are the one doing it I think ? I would like to see you after a succesful 10 pool.... Probably raging on the Zerg for being a "Nub".
Anyway, I have some Protoss friends, and they all whine that they have to all-in so much, I say F-you. You don't need to all-in as Toss, you just choose too...... I get that with the way you are fed all-in strategies, you would think you didn't have another choice ( Not all toss play all-in, I know ).
I would just like to express my gratitude to all the TL. strategy writing staff; You guys are doing a great job.... ( insert Kappa )
Edit: Also I don't think we will see anything other than Protoss soon
Also lies, we are so not gonna write about races that aren't manly.
You see, my friends?
“Sing, goddess, of [his] ruinous anger Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans, And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs And birds of prey.“ *
"If you have read the classics, you might think that the above passage refers to Homeric Achilles. Nay; this is an account of your Zerg ladder opponent's blistering rage as he fell fodder to the fabled Magic Johnson."
On June 15 2013 11:37 JSK wrote: You see, my friends?
“Sing, goddess, of [his] ruinous anger Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans, And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs And birds of prey.“ *
"If you have read the classics, you might think that the above passage refers to Homeric Achilles. Nay; this is an account of your Zerg ladder opponent's blistering rage as he fell fodder to the fabled Magic Johnson."
If you are refering to me.... I'm Terran.... <<<--- srry its late for me im going to sleep nvm !
this build is so imba I'm in love with it. probably the only thing balancing pvz winrates imo on ladder. 2 zergs today have been like "EVERY FUCKING GAME TODAY" and then leaving
With the game Soulkey vs Parting game 5, the only way i have lost with this build is muta ling play, either they base trade or snipe reinforcing pylons and overwhelm. It seems like the muta play/response isn't touched on much, anyone have an appropriate response in handling/identifying mutas, 8 sentrys really digs into the gas count for stalkers.
Would be good if OP had more detail in the build for gold newbs like me to execute. Like the stargate one says make SG but skips saying 4 pheonix's to be built then make robo. T_T
You shouldn't have to cut phoenix production to get your robo up. If you have to, you aren't hitting the timings mentioned in the OP and the problem is your macro and opening, not the build order.
Do the phoenix have to do damage/ how much damage do they have to do in order to give oneself an advantage?
The this thing says that for a macro game, approximately 1k of resources is required damage to be dealt to stay in the game economically; I was wondering if that was the same for this?
EPT
Two Nexi: check. Two Immortals: check. Two Colossi: check.
Notice the roach/hydra forcefielded against the Protoss army, rather than cut in half or away from it.
Flying vs Roro on DF Atlas Set 2. From WCS Korea
![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/1c832e6d-27ab-414a-b89a-25f4aaacb9fc_zpsf6afd58e.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/MLG/Anaheim/heyitspuma.jpg)
+ ![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/HbRY0_zpsfd3f2638.jpg)
