EPT[D] PvT-PvZ The Cress Carrier Build - Page 3
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FinBenton
Finland870 Posts
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Cress
United States212 Posts
On June 08 2013 21:19 FinBenton wrote: Im not reading the whole thead but what do you do if zerg goes swarm host (around 15) and rest hydra? I played this kinda protoss play today and just made that and sieged his expansions forcing him to come out to bad positions to my hydra concaves until he couldnt affort to make enough units and cannons. I've encountered swarm host before. Swarm host/corruptor and swarm host/hydra. I dunno I've seen zerg make 5-8 swarm hosts. thats common, If you made 15 I don't think you would have the money for the hydra's and corruptors that you absolutely need to prevent the carriers from killing a base. If you had timings of how many hydra's and swarm hosts would show up and when would help some. I've never lost to swarm hosts though. The idea of this carrier style is to never allow your opponent to reach his desired composition. Hydra's are pretty bad at stoping the carriers from sniping a base usually too. Corruptors can force the carriers to recall usually which buys you more time, but they are weak to void rays, its a bit of a toss up. Getting out enough hydra's to force the carriers back and 3000 minerals / 1500 gas is quite a bit. Even just mass hydra is difficult. I think your better off just sniping a base when the carriers are out of position or something. Swarm hosts are a large investment in a unit that does not shoot up to kill a base that does not matter a lot. The carriers them selfs are the life blood of the protoss. | ||
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Vardaine
Netherlands5 Posts
Simply put, there is a huge window where any and all agression can hit. If a standard marine-marauder ball hits between 8 and 9 minutes there is no way your 2 zealots and MSC with photon overcharge is going to defend that. On maps like akilon wastes, the terran can simply bypass the nexus and go straight to your main. On other maps they will take some more losses doing that, but still. They can also simply wait the minute out and then come kill you. Just in case I am doing something wrong, could you post some replays of you defending 8-9 minute pushes (like a minute before the carriers pop out). | ||
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Cress
United States212 Posts
On June 09 2013 06:37 Vardaine wrote: I do not think this is a viable build in basically any league from platinum up. Certainly not in masters. I have tried this about 7-8 times and lost every single one of the games before carriers were even out. In one game I got some carriers out which were crushed by pure marines (altough I violated the rule about engaging over open ground. Simply put, there is a huge window where any and all agression can hit. If a standard marine-marauder ball hits between 8 and 9 minutes there is no way your 2 zealots and MSC with photon overcharge is going to defend that. On maps like akilon wastes, the terran can simply bypass the nexus and go straight to your main. On other maps they will take some more losses doing that, but still. They can also simply wait the minute out and then come kill you. Just in case I am doing something wrong, could you post some replays of you defending 8-9 minute pushes (like a minute before the carriers pop out). Your talking about some sort of 1 base 8 minute push? You do get a full scout of the terran and what hes doing at 6:30. Also if you break Rule number 1, you can lose the game instantly. You need dead space and good positioning. A two base push won't be out in till 9:30 and it gets slowed down by the oracle, because they must make an earlier engineering bay and two turrets. You first two carriers can be started at 8 minutes and I know at least one can be crono'd fully, it can pop at 9 minutes exactly. If theres some sort of one base playing going on, yeah you need to change your play. add cannons etc etc. Even void rays can do well. | ||
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Vardaine
Netherlands5 Posts
Regarding one base pushes, if you scout it with your oracle you are likely too late. There is no warp gate and no forge yet, so you cannot build much except void rays and oracles, which realy are not going to help much vs a 1 base terran all-in. | ||
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AGIANTSMURF
United States1232 Posts
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dreamsmasher
816 Posts
On June 09 2013 06:37 Vardaine wrote: I do not think this is a viable build in basically any league from platinum up. Certainly not in masters. I have tried this about 7-8 times and lost every single one of the games before carriers were even out. In one game I got some carriers out which were crushed by pure marines (altough I violated the rule about engaging over open ground. Simply put, there is a huge window where any and all agression can hit. If a standard marine-marauder ball hits between 8 and 9 minutes there is no way your 2 zealots and MSC with photon overcharge is going to defend that. On maps like akilon wastes, the terran can simply bypass the nexus and go straight to your main. On other maps they will take some more losses doing that, but still. They can also simply wait the minute out and then come kill you. Just in case I am doing something wrong, could you post some replays of you defending 8-9 minute pushes (like a minute before the carriers pop out). but he's in masters doing this consistently and winning so you're wrong. | ||
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Cress
United States212 Posts
On June 09 2013 08:16 Vardaine wrote: Some were in fact 2 base pushes. Only they did not have medivacs with them. More like small pokes they did after they held off my oracle, but those pokes were enough to kill me as I didnt have anything. Regarding one base pushes, if you scout it with your oracle you are likely too late. There is no warp gate and no forge yet, so you cannot build much except void rays and oracles, which realy are not going to help much vs a 1 base terran all-in. Well Medivacs pop out at 9 minutes, If your cronoboosts are done correctly, and this can be difficult while micoing your oracle. I mess it up all the time as well, you'll have both carriers out at 9:00-9:15. If this is a small marine push off two you can hold them off easily with your two zealots and MSC. Just position the zealots at your ramp use the nexus cannon, the marines will take a lot of damage trying to move up that ramp. The Oracle can also clean house if it still has energy. These kinds of push's also deplete their marine count which you can usually just go harass with your first two carriers when they do these kinds of smaller pushs. I'm sure its possble to die to any push, but the fact you say it won't be viable past platinum is silly, since your clearly seeing masters players getting wrecked by it. Its fun build. I'm sure it has weakness's but every build does, I'm not saying we're gonna see carriers used in Code S. Its viable though. | ||
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quaZa
Germany58 Posts
On June 09 2013 09:08 dreamsmasher wrote: but he's in masters doing this consistently and winning so you're wrong. He plays Unranked matches. That means the People he plays,are either trying something or are not really trying/play offrace. | ||
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Cress
United States212 Posts
On June 09 2013 09:16 quaZa wrote: He plays Unranked matches. That means the People he plays,are either trying something or are not really trying/play offrace. Not all the match's are unranked. That's a bit of a oversight too saying they were not trying. Didn't I beat you in a PvT quaza with Tempest blink stalker? Are you still angry with me? Not trying to start a flame war xD just saying, we stopped talking  ?Its a build that works for me and I enjoyed it. My stream viewers convinced me to share it in a formal format. Not really much else to say about it. | ||
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quaZa
Germany58 Posts
On June 09 2013 09:22 Cress wrote: Not all the match's are unranked. That's a bit of a oversight too saying they were not trying. Didn't I beat you in a PvT quaza with Tempest blink stalker? Are you still angry with me? Not trying to start a flame war xD just saying, we stopped talking ?Did u ever beat my Zerg?...U where the One who yelled at me for "sabotating" ur stream post.when in fact u know how i am and i like to troll. i was never angry i jsut defended myself in this situation. | ||
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Demicore
France503 Posts
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
In Low Masters you can win with just about anything, because people still make a lot of mistakes. People still make tons of mistakes in High Masters too, but that number is usually greatly reduced enough to put builds like this to bed. And this is coming from somebody that has explored and ran every corner of strategy at High Masters over the span of late WoL through present day. I used to be the hipster that would use Carriers no matter the circumstance, but they just take too long to build, and die to too many things. So it's not like I am doubting this as a Protoss who only used Stalker Colossus the entire life of SC2. Believe me, if there was a viable Carrier PvT strategy at High Masters, I'd be the first one parading around about it. | ||
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Cress
United States212 Posts
On June 09 2013 09:26 quaZa wrote: Did u ever beat my Zerg?...U where the One who yelled at me for "sabotating" ur stream post.when in fact u know how i am and i like to troll. i was never angry i jsut defended myself in this situation. Yes quaza I have beaten your zerg. Remember when we were both diamond baddies and used to be friends ? Now We're masters and only slightly less bad xD. You troll but you can be mean sometimes... Anyway, Lets stay on topic.But yeah, the build is what it is. If you break any of the Rules of engagement you can auto-lose the game, its very unforgiving. Its also a weird style one that takes time to get used too. This is a build for fun and entertainment. I'm sure if you pull your scv's at the right time it'd be hard to win or its weak to some timing. Useally when I lose its because I flew some carriers into a group of marines or broke the shortest distance over open ground and got punished for not having area to micro the weak carriers back. | ||
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Cress
United States212 Posts
On June 09 2013 09:32 SidewinderSC2 wrote: What level of Masters? Because there is an enormous difference between low Masters and legit High Masters. I really doubt this would be viable in PvT at High Masters, unless you happened to get a lot of really profitable gateway or tech harassment, or if they ran a pressure/all-in build that did nothing. In Low Masters you can win with just about anything, because people still make a lot of mistakes. People still make tons of mistakes in High Masters too, but that number is usually greatly reduced enough to put builds like this to bed. And this is coming from somebody that has explored and ran every corner of strategy at High Masters over the span of late WoL through present day. I used to be the hipster that would use Carriers no matter the circumstance, but they just take too long to build, and die to too many things. So it's not like I am doubting this as a Protoss who only used Stalker Colossus the entire life of SC2. Believe me, if there was a viable Carrier PvT strategy at High Masters, I'd be the first one parading around about it. On June 06 2013 14:07 Cress wrote:I can't say if its possible or not to make it viable at the highest level of play, but it shows promise and its by far the most fun I've ever had playing this game. Yeah I dunno. Nobody has tried making carriers work any extensive amount. You need to try and try a lot to even determine if something is viable. Carriers definitely are not the easiest build to win with. It tolerates very little mistakes. I was so disappointed with the new changes to protoss in Hots that I switched to zerg. As all the new units come from the Stargate. I still feel carriers just have not been tried or play around with enough. Taking advantage of their positioning and most effective way of creating them. Your a high masters player of Standard play I assume. I respect that, but how many games attempting to go carriers have you really tried? I'm not saying my build is good. It could be the worst possible way of going carriers. That still does not mean carriers are not viable. Not everything has been tried not all possibility's have been exhausted. I've used colossus/HT's my entire protoss sc2 life span. If thats your thing after 3 years more power to you. I'm just hungry for more after the hots expansion. This build has no "hard counter" as far as I can tell. It comes down to the harassment and positioning of the carriers. If the terran goes for one base play you gotta do some extreme adjusting which sucks, but two base terran takes awhile to get rolling by the time they get their first two medivacs and you even need to worry about drops you already have the two carriers out. I'm not saying carriers are good or bad... But lets keep trying eh? | ||
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Cress
United States212 Posts
On June 09 2013 09:26 Demicore wrote: Been using carriers in most of PvTs and PvZs as well to great results. Love this unit. Hmm, well if they are games against masters players who spend their money and are active on the map. Maybe you could share your experiences with them? I think too many people are missing the point of carriers and thats the love you feel when you build one. When I build this spider lagged thing that fires lasers I feel no attachment to it. When I build a carrier all my memories of Brood war flash before my eyes O.o. | ||
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Cress
United States212 Posts
On June 09 2013 08:38 AGIANTSMURF wrote: there is nothing a carrier does that a voidray wont do cheaper That's not true actually. Void rays can't fight bio without getting hit. Carriers have Range 8 to 14 and can be cost effective if your only trading the minerals inside the carriers. | ||
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unknown soldier
38 Posts
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Cress
United States212 Posts
On June 09 2013 18:42 unknown soldier wrote: well this work in WOL if so what are the necessary changes as looks like i aint buying HOTS Nah, The build replys pretty heavily on the mother ship core to cut a few corners and mass recall. I suppose it would still work decently, void rays won't own corruptors as hard though and no mother ship core so early bio pushs will be much harder to hold off. | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
I still feel carriers just have not been tried or play around with enough. Taking advantage of their positioning and most effective way of creating them. Your a high masters player of Standard play I assume. I respect that, but how many games attempting to go carriers have you really tried? I am very non-standard. I have tried Carrier builds in PvT a LOT, and it always comes down to the fact that they do the job of a Colossus, except the Colossus does it a lot better. Believe me, if I had my way, the Colossus would be removed from the game and more interesting units would take their place. I never use Colossus in any matchup except PvT, only because it is a necessity against a high Marine count from 3 bases and beyond. 2 bases you can easily Storm your way around the map. I'm not saying carriers are good or bad... But lets keep trying eh? Alright, I will try to get some Carrier games going again and see if the new meta somehow helps out. I do think that you need to open Storm and get Carriers on 3 bases though, as opposed to 2 or 1 base. | ||
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