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I thought I was trolling Terran, then after a few hundred dead terrans and zergs later I discovered I might have a decent fun and viable build for reaching mass carriers against terran and zerg. I can't say if its possible or not to make it viable at the highest level of play, but it shows promise and its by far the most fun I've ever had playing this game.
I figured I would share some of the experience I've had going carriers in PvT/PvZ and put it in this discussion thread. I don't feel I have enough data or resources to make a guide for this build. Maybe in the future, for now its just a discussion on how to troll like a boss.
This is a very strange style of play. Its a build almost no masters protoss players could relate too and takes a bit of time to get a feel for as theres no warp gate.
I'm not very good at writing guides or explaining builds so be gentle >,<
Hopefully after seeing this guide you'll have a basic understand of how to increase your chances of making carriers work at a masters level against terran and zerg. No build is perfect and some timings you will be weak too
PvT Build Order and Timings
+ Show Spoiler +
First I'll give a rough build order and some timings.
9/Pylon *You can 9 scout or 13 scout, The 9 scout will slow down the nexus slightly but you can harrass the scv building the rax if its a 2 player map*
13/gate * If you choose to 13 scout the only thing you need to check for really is making sure the terran is not proxy 11/11, as you will auto die if he does, If the Terran is proxying, abandon this build*
15/gas
3/Cronoboosts on the nexus don't build a second pylon and get supply blocked at 18/18
18/@400 Minerals nexus *If you 9 scout you can time the probe to come back in time to plant down the nexus and send him back to mining, doing this can be sometimes prefered because the terrans scv can sometimes be scouting your main and if he sees a probe go down to the natural he may attempt to slow down the nexus being planted*
The nexus should go down at 3:00-3:10 min in game time depending on your scout timing. Most terrans won't have an eng-bay block worked into their build in till 4 minutes which is the normal 1 gate expand timing.
18/@150 Cybercore
18/@100 Pylon
18/@75 Second gas
After you get out of your 18/18 supply block your gonna wanna have a zealot and probe queued up, cronoboost out the zealot/nexus and we'll need it to delay the reaper.
@M100 zealot
@M50 Probe *after you make your 19th probe get ready for the cybercore to finish and start a mommacore, *Keep in mind the finished nexus on the low ground will free up your supply block*
@M100-G100 Mothership core * keep making probes after your core finishs, you can start cronoing probes if you wish*
Second gateway unit: Here you have some choices and preferences, *You can either make another zealot when the first one finishs or make a stalker for more early scouting, You may just skip the second zealot all togather if you wish. I useally only do that if my opponent opened reaper, the logic behind that is if my opponent opened reaper I lost 1-2 probes, which is fine since he delayed his expansion to make the reaper.
@M150-G150/ Star gate, *reaper openings will scout this of course, but this is fine he won't ever be aware of what we're doing*
@M100/Pylon * This pylon will bring you up to 44 supply, Keep cronoing probes, but you may wish to save one or two cronos for the oracle
@M150-G150/Oracle *your star gate should be wraping up, Keep in mind that after the oracle finishs don't make anything else out of the Stargate for now, You just need the one oracle for scouting and harassment.
@M100/Pylon *Get this pylon as soon as possible* * After you throw down this pylon go ahead and take both gas's at the natural*
@M75/Gas @Natural
@M75/Gas @Natural
* right around 7 minutes a widow mine drop can happen, you'll get your oracle out at 6:20-6:30 but its something to take note of, Good terrans will drop in your natural and your main, I like to use the nexus cannon to kill main/natural and use the gateway units i have to kill the other, if you made 2 zealots, throw a probe into the mine and finish it off with the zealots, By the way it goes without saying if you lose the oracle to a widow mine hit, your screwed xD, so be-careful.
@M300-G200 Fleet beacon
@M150-G150 Second star gate * Keep in mind you will be harrassing with your oracle while placing these structures down and we want to waste as little time as possble getting them placed.
@M100/Pylon
@M100/Pylon
Keep in mind that alot of one base pushs can hit right around this time, If you made a stalker instead of a second zealot you will have more warning about them coming, but you'll probably want to skip the fleet beacon in favor of a second star gate and pump out voids and make gate way units from your one gate to defend. Theres alot of different one base attacks that can come at you, Your oracle will tell you exactly what push is coming, If its a 1/1/1 or something your carriers will be out in time so don't worry too much about that timing.
I'm talking more about bio pushes that are rough to hold off but still holdable, I'm lazy and go with the second zealot so I useally only have a bit of warning that the oracle gives me.
Okay moving on, Lets make some CARRIERS!!! I won't be labeling pylons from this point on, I gave out all the important timings for ones.
@8:00-8:05 In game time, if your timings are super crisp you can get both carriers started around then, Its easy to mess up when microing your oracle though. If it does get messed up and you start your carriers late, its useally not the end of the world since your oracle will have delayed their double medivac push.
Getting the carriers out at the correct timing can sometimes mean the difference between dieing to that 9-10 minute push or not.
@M350-@G250 Carrier!!!!!!
@M350-@G250 Carrier!!!!!!
@M100/G100/+1 Air attack upgrade
@M150-@150 / Carrier Attack speed upgrade
@M150/Forge, We'll need lots of cannons
Add pylons at this point as you see fit, I useally start to cut probes at 16 on each mineral line and 3/3 on each gas, and won't start making more probes in till I'm taking or about to take my third.
Assuming the terran expanded and is playing out a standard game, you'll get your carriers out at roughly 9:20-9:30 Ingame time All just depends on when you started the carriers, This can be easy to mess up if you don't throw down the fleet beacon and star gate instant, even I mess it up alot while microing an oracle.
Obviously start two more carriers after your first two finish, We should have +1 attack and the attack speed upgrade, this will be more then enough to crush the terrans double medivac push, If you scout with your oracle that the terran does not have a 3rd CC and is still on two CC I useally throw down 2 cannons in front of the natural.
When the terran shows up at 9-10 minutes a number of things will happen, if he commits to the push and loses his army its an easy win for you, Assuming he does not snipe a nexus or something.
You'll need to be very aware of positioning of your Carriers Always fight over dead space or unpassble terrain whenever possible, your taking a risk anytime the carriers move into open field.
Sometime the terran won't commit to the push and maybe fall back or try to drop, you should know that if medivacs get within 10 range of charcters they are dead almost instantly.
After you force the Bio army back, your gonna want to get a 3rd up sometimes you can get the 3rd up earlier at 10 minutes when they go for the push and sometimes I think its worth it to take the 3rd its only 100 minutes lost if they go for it and force a cancel and it buys you a bit of extra time for the 3rd and 4th carrier
When you get your 4 carriers and are taking that 3rd, its harassment time, this is the main key to why this build can be successful,
If you let the terran max on vikings and get a good economy he will kill you, eZ and then laugh at you for going carriers,
Be very liberal about making cannons as your minerals will be very high, bring the mothership core along with your 3-4 carriers and attempt to either siege the terrans production or kill his 3rd, The 3rd is always a better choice but sometimes they won't take a 3rd.
The natural is fine too, but be annoying as hell with the carriers, you can always recall with the momma core to deal with doom drops, A single carrier will deal with a single drop quite well and sometimes you luck out and a carrier is poping as a drop is happening
Sniping bases and killing production with the carriers is the name of the game, as well as adding more star gates for more carriers and more bases of your own.
Think carefully how you move your army if you make a mistake and take a bad fight in open ground things will be bad for you xD.
Micro weak carriers back and trade interceptors for vikings and marines and medivacs, carriers have a decent range and do high damage.
With experence you'll learn how to micro and make the harassment work for you.
This build will not allow very many mistakes, but its the price of fun I suppose.
PvZ Build order and Timings
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This build is also viable against zerg too, Although I feel zerg has an easier time beating it after it gets rolling then terran does
Again the build order is mostly the same as against terran but theres some changes in positioning for example.
9/Pylon *9 Scout is must so that we don't die to 10 pool or below.
13/gate *Your gonna want to do a Zealot in the middle wall off, I was a bit too noob to get pictures to work so you'll have to check my vods to see the exact wall off if your not sure
15/gas * If you don't scout a pool before 2 min ingame time go ahead with the build, if there is a early pool, place a forge instead of a gateway if you can and abandon the carrier build.
3/Cronoboosts on the nexus don't build a second pylon and get supply blocked at 18/18
18/@400 Minerals nexus
18/@150 Cybercore
18/@100 Pylon
18/@75 Second gas
@M100 zealot * Crono out the zealot to complete the zealot in the middle wall off, Stalkers won't be able to fit through this wall off, but thats fine, we won't be making very many and its a more secure wall off.
@M50 Probe *after you make your 19th probe get ready for the cybercore to finish and start a mommacore, *Keep in mind the finished nexus on the low ground will free up your supply block*
@M100-G100 Mothership core * keep making probes after your core finishs, you can start cronoing probes if you wish* *Use the mothership core to scare off any lings that may be around your nexus.
Second gateway unit: Should nearly always be a zealot, but you could make a stalker for scouting more if you wish, but keep in mind the stalker can't fit through the wall off, if you make one, make sure it pops out on the right side.
@M150-G150/ Star gate,
@M100/Pylon * This pylon will bring you up to 44 supply, Keep cronoing probes, but you may wish to save one or two cronos for the oracle, Keep in mind that these next pylons that your making you wanna make along your nexus, this is to absorb seedling damage and make it more difficult to snipe your nexus
@M150-G150/Oracle *your star gate should be wrapping up, Keep in mind that after the oracle finishes don't make anything else out of the Stargate for now, You just need the one oracle for scouting and harassment.
*If they are going 16 drones speedling alling you, you won't be able to hold the nexus you will kill most of the lings with the oracle/nexus cannon,
*The best respond I found to this is to start pumping out voids. Most speedling attacks can be fended off with just the nexus cannon and oracle outside of all-ins
@M100/Pylon *Get this pylon as soon as possible* * After you throw down this pylon go ahead and take both gas's at the natural*
@M75/Gas @Natural
@M75/Gas @Natural
@M300-G200 Fleet beacon
@M150-G150 Second star gate * Keep in mind you will be harrassing with your oracle while placing these structures down and we want to waste as little time as possble getting them placed
@M100/Pylon
@M100/Pylon
You should try to be as active in getting scouting information about the zerg as possble with the oracle, Void rays will be needed if corruptors are made. More often then not, hydra viper will be the zergs response or just mass hydra.
Okay moving on, Lets make some CARRIERS!!! I won't be labeling pylons from this point on, I gave out all the important timings for ones
@8:00-8:05 In game time, if your timings are super crisp you can get both carriers started around then,
@M350-@G250 Carrier!!!!!!
@M350-@G250 Carrier!!!!!!
@M100/G100/+1 Air attack upgrade
@M150-@150 / Carrier Attack speed upgrade
@M150/Forge, We'll need lots of cannons
Same as with terran once you get 3-4 carriers you should be getting a 3rd up and harrassing with your carriers, bring the mothership core along in case you need to recall
From here on, what you do what depend on if the zerg is making hydras or corruptors, hydras are the cheaper response and you need to focus on sniping their bases while preventing your own bases from being sniped
Cannons are your best friend, make lots of them.
Really the only difference between PvZ and PvT are the positioning of buildings and against zerg you may need to build void rays, but the same overall concept of the opening build is the same.
Adding storm at some point could help the build out near the late game. I have not figured out any good timings for this yet though. The diffaculty with storm is it conflicts with the number one rule of going carriers.
Which is always stay over dead space whenever possble so hydras and marines can't get a good grip on you, but its still possble to have high templars in good positions for storms I would think.
Vods for PvT-PvZ Carriers
+ Show Spoiler +
Who knows maybe this build is not very good, Its certainly the most fun I've ever had playing the game though. I was asked by my stream viewers to try to produce a short guide on carriers.
If the carrier build gets past the experimental phase I will produce a more soild guide for everyone. Lets be realistic this build is very far removed from any meta currently known or tried, Many many games will be required to "figure" things out.
I will keep evolving this build on my stream and working towards improving it. If the community has a lot of interest I'll put out a more polished guided.
F.A.Q
+ Show Spoiler +Q:Do you think this build would work against protoss? A: No not even close, the problem with protoss is you need at least six carriers before they start getting good, which you will never reach quickly, as opposed to the other matchups where two carriers will do quite well, Protoss can always blink at your carriers too. Won't work against most masters players. You'd need a different build, for it to work Q: Will this build work more then once? A: Yes it does, theres a slight surprise factor involved, but you won't have any problems killing zergs and terrans in macro games more then one time. In the future I'd like to come up with different versions of the build. Q: Have you tried going gateway units/carriers? A: Yes I have, but the mass carrier version is more fun. http://www.twitch.tv/sc2cress/c/2140754 an example of a Gateway/Carrier attack, Feels a bit weak against really good zergs though.
Rules Of Engagement (This is how you will make carriers work for you, Read them.
+ Show Spoiler +Refining and making sure your doing the right build is the first step. This is the second and just as important. I'm going to explain some rules that I found out through experience if you break. You can get punished hard for. I'll add more in the future. Rule Number 1: Always fight over Unpassible terrain. What does this mean? It means that when hydra's and marines run at your carriers you have an area behind the carriers where you can micro back the weak carriers and they will be out of range by ground units. Your movement around the map needs to be done quickly but also well thought out and planned. You may need to trim around the sides of the map to get to your intended target. Rule Number 2: Have good positioning when defending. This is very map dependent and more so applies to when you just got out your first 2 carriers and you need to defend an early bio or hydra push. You wanna put your carriers in the best possible position for example between your natural and 3rd or on the ledge to your main. Sometimes one will be better then the other depending on the map. Keep in mind the more you move your carriers the more dps they lose which is key when picking a good position. Rule Number 3: Always have a mothership core with your carriers. It took me awhile to figure this one out but it really is quite useful. For one the nexus cannon is not really that useful with this build after you get 4 carriers, you will have cannons anyway. Time warp is your last saving grace and sometimes you can get nice catches of bio or hydras if you time it right. Mass recall is a nice ability for when your carriers get trapped or after you just sniped a base. Be careful however about recalling into an enemy army killing one of your nexus's. Your carriers can't move attack or defend them selfs and sometimes just losing the nexus is better then losing the carriers. Let me give an example. + Show Spoiler +( I was playing a Terran I was killing his natural with 4 carriers his main army was running at my 3rd. I recalled into his army and lost 4 carriers for free. He attacked into my natural quickly after, I had 2 already out and 2 more just pop'd the 4 carriers killed his army easy with good position. I would have been better off to sac the 3rd and have 8 carriers would have been game ending for the terran.) Rule Number 4: Never Rally your carriers across the map. Rallying carriers can easily get picked off by them selfs by marines or hydra's. This rule can be bent some. In general though I would recommend letting your new carriers pop out to defend your bases from drops and lings. When you send your 4 carriers to go harass. Send your 5th and 6th carriers to go defend the main and 3rd for example. After you recall from harassing the Terran then let the new carriers join up with the fleet. Carriers are really good at stopping drops too if they can be present when it happens. Rule Number 5: 4 Carriers to rule them all. Your first 3-4 carriers is a really good number to harass with and snipe a base and damage the zerg or terran. You almost always wanna attempt this timing to weaken your opponent and slow them down. Stay over dead space and have a mothership core with your carriers, in less you make a mistake they can't kill these carriers.
Thanks for reading.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +I got a new account this week just for Carriers in PvT-PvZ, To work my way up and learn the niches of the build so to speak. Some of these games will be Diamond vs masters because I'm locked, but they are still masters games. http://drop.sc/340781 : PvZ This zerg had played me a few times already and did a meta game 3 hatch before pool mass expand build http://drop.sc/340775 : PvZ Zerg let me win eZ *Rolls eyes* http://drop.sc/340777 : PvZ Zerg went Zergling corrupter its interesting because it can be difficult to take a third on this map against that style http://drop.sc/340778 : PvT Even with Poor positioning and microing you can still sometimes pull a win xD http://drop.sc/340779 : PvT Not the Ideal game, Should've gone after expansions instead of production http://drop.sc/340782 : PvT Weird Banshee mech play, threw me for a loop a bit I'll upload a bunch more in the future.
TL-DR: Carriers!!! <(^,^)> (>^,^)> Carrier Dance <(^,^<) <(^,^)>
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TL-DR: Nice shot trying to make Carriers useful.
Though right now Carriers are the most costly unit in the game, since you need to buy Interceptors for them to attack. So they are not the most cost effective unit.
Unlike Zerg(SH, BL) they don't spawn free units. *sob*
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I have been trying to experiment with carriers too.
I have noticed that in PvZ, carriers are in fact a totally viable route since the big void ray buff. Before, 2/2 carriers were thrashed by 0/0 corruptors, and there was nothing you could do to prevent the sniping of your carriers. You still need to be ahead in upgrades, but nothing impossible
However, in PvT, it is very very hard. Basically, the unit that counters the protoss air is pretty simple : it's called the marine. Well, agreed, you also need some medivacs. But you get the idea. You tell us to use the terrain at your advantage, but it is not always easy to do so.
Anyways, good post overall. Carriers forever!
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I watched some of your PvT's, terrans scouting carriers even after you have 4-5 still gives you so much trouble by reactively going mass marines.
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Huh? I've watched both PvZ games.
- In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base
- In game 1, all the zerg had was like 10 queens and 5 hydralisks, at the 15 minute mark, along with maybe 3-4 swarm hosts?
- In game 2, all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark?
Zergs can be maxed on hydralisks by then, or have so many mutalisks out that your low-carrier-count army stands no chance. What league is this? ^^
The zergs couldve gone pure hydra, or roach hydra, pure muta, roach/hydra/muta/corruptor or even a stephano max at 11 minutes and you would have died on the spot. the zerg had 3 bases but no units. It's kind of confusing?
Also like 4 fungals and your entire interceptor fleet is shut down.
In game 3, the zerg made horrible decisions with his hydra positioning and unit choice.
Also carriers are really really slow, and going for example, mass mutalisks ( with a few corruptors to keep those ph oenix away) will shut you down hard. By the time you reached one of their bases, 5 of yours will have been shut down already. not to forget that mutalisks can head on engage your carrier fleet, since you don't put early (enough) pressure on the zerg and mutalisks can focus fire the small amount of carriers you put out.
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On June 06 2013 16:41 kaluro wrote:
Huh? I've watched both PvZ games.
- In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base
- In game 1, all the zerg had was like 10 queens and 5 hydralisks, at the 15 minute mark, along with maybe 3-4 swarm hosts?
- In game 2, all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark?
Zergs can be maxed on hydralisks by then, or have so many mutalisks out that your low-carrier-count army stands no chance. What league is this? ^^
The zergs couldve gone pure hydra, or roach hydra, pure muta, roach/hydra/muta/corruptor or even a stephano max at 11 minutes and you would have died on the spot. the zerg had 3 bases but no units. It's kind of confusing?
Also like 4 fungals and your entire interceptor fleet is shut down.
In game 3, the zerg made horrible decisions with his hydra positioning and unit choice.
Also carriers are really really slow, and going for example, mass mutalisks ( with a few corruptors to keep those ph oenix away) will shut you down hard. By the time you reached one of their bases, 5 of yours will have been shut down already. not to forget that mutalisks can head on engage your carrier fleet, since you don't put early (enough) pressure on the zerg and mutalisks can focus fire the small amount of carriers you put out.
Actually Kaluro Muta's are terrible against carriers, 1 Carrier can hold off 10 muta's and will kill so many before it goes down that its not cost effective. The best choice is probably hydra viper but even this is no auto-win.
I'm also confused as to why your saying phoenixs would get shut down by corruptors, None were made.
I have to be to put my foot down on the Fungals shut down interceptors, It never works. 90% this won't be effective for the zerg. Go into a unit tester and try it out for yourself make hydra/infestor vs an equal amount of food in carriers 200/200, and attempt to fungal the interceptors with decent carrier spread, Now add the difficulty of positioning inside a game. Saying only 4 fungals can shut down a interceptor fleet is ridiculous.
You do sound very sure of yourself that mutalisks trade well with carriers, they don't.
"all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark? " I can't tell if this is a troll or not? but it seems to be, What an odd number of units.
"In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base" Actually I think theres a game where I let an overlord sit over carriers building for a few minutes without bothering to kill it, Again... troll....?
The earliest a zerg can come at you with hydra's is about 9 minutes and your two carriers will shut it down assuming your using the nexus cannon and don't attack the hydra's to hit the carriers.
http://www.twitch.tv/sc2cress/c/2376373 go to 32 minutes in, and you will see a zerg who has already played me 3 times in the past, he goes triple hatch before pool, knows no pressure is coming, max's out on a lot of bases spends his money well on corruptors, and its still just not enough.
Its kinda just w/e. People on my stream asked for the build and I'm providing that, nothing more
I'm surprised actually that your not attacking the use of carriers against terran, when its been known for awhile now that carriers are viable against zerg, White-Ra does it often.
"What league is this? ^^" And you sorta have a rude tone to everything you say... 
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On June 06 2013 16:18 mantequilla wrote:
I watched some of your PvT's, terrans scouting carriers even after you have 4-5 still gives you so much trouble by reactively going mass marines.
Most terrans respond with vikings and marines actually. I deliberately put up games that were very blow for blow and down to the wire for entertainment reasons xD. There's games where you shut down the terrans double medivac push and snipe the 3rd and its quickly gg though. I think in probably all of the vods I posted, I break the number one rule of going carriers, always stay over dead space. The game can drag on and go bad for you if things are not micro'd properly
It really comes down to harassment of the terrans 3rd and sieging their production and how well these things go for you. If the terran is allowed to create 40 vikings they will kill you. So sniping vikings and medivacs and trade interceptors for marines is a must. After all, if you think about, Interceptors and marines are both mineral units, it is possible to get good trades
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On June 06 2013 15:44 Meteo Rain wrote:
TL-DR: Nice shot trying to make Carriers useful.
Though right now Carriers are the most costly unit in the game, since you need to buy Interceptors for them to attack. So they are not the most cost effective unit.
Unlike Zerg(SH, BL) they don't spawn free units. *sob*
Carriers are quite costly, but as long as your not getting the carriers them-selfs killed. Your trading Minerals for marines and hydras. Carriers can be cost effective, but they are very unforgiving if caught out of position.
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On June 06 2013 17:23 Cress wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 16:41 kaluro wrote:
Huh? I've watched both PvZ games.
- In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base
- In game 1, all the zerg had was like 10 queens and 5 hydralisks, at the 15 minute mark, along with maybe 3-4 swarm hosts?
- In game 2, all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark?
Zergs can be maxed on hydralisks by then, or have so many mutalisks out that your low-carrier-count army stands no chance. What league is this? ^^
The zergs couldve gone pure hydra, or roach hydra, pure muta, roach/hydra/muta/corruptor or even a stephano max at 11 minutes and you would have died on the spot. the zerg had 3 bases but no units. It's kind of confusing?
Also like 4 fungals and your entire interceptor fleet is shut down.
In game 3, the zerg made horrible decisions with his hydra positioning and unit choice.
Also carriers are really really slow, and going for example, mass mutalisks ( with a few corruptors to keep those ph oenix away) will shut you down hard. By the time you reached one of their bases, 5 of yours will have been shut down already. not to forget that mutalisks can head on engage your carrier fleet, since you don't put early (enough) pressure on the zerg and mutalisks can focus fire the small amount of carriers you put out. Actually Kaluro Muta's are terrible against carriers, 1 Carrier can hold off 10 muta's and will kill so many before it goes down that its not cost effective. The best choice is probably hydra viper but even this is no auto-win. I'm also confused as to why your saying phoenixs would get shut down by corruptors, None were made. I have to be to put my foot down on the Fungals shut down interceptors, It never works. 90% this won't be effective for the zerg. Go into a unit tester and try it out for yourself make hydra/infestor vs an equal amount of food in carriers 200/200, and attempt to fungal the interceptors with decent carrier spread, Now add the difficulty of positioning inside a game. Saying only 4 fungals can shut down a interceptor fleet is ridiculous. You do sound very sure of yourself that mutalisks trade well with carriers, they don't. "all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark? " I can't tell if this is a troll or not? but it seems to be, What an odd number of units. "In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base" Actually I think theres a game where I let an overlord sit over carriers building for a few minutes without bothering to kill it, Again... troll....? The earliest a zerg can come at you with hydra's is about 9 minutes and your two carriers will shut it down assuming your using the nexus cannon and don't attack the hydra's to hit the carriers. http://www.twitch.tv/sc2cress/c/2376373 go to 32 minutes in, and you will see a zerg who has already played me 3 times in the past, he goes triple hatch before pool, knows no pressure is coming, max's out on a lot of bases spends his money well on corruptors, and its still just not enough. Its kinda just w/e. People on my stream asked for the build and I'm providing that, nothing more I'm surprised actually that your not attacking the use of carriers against terran, when its been known for awhile now that carriers are viable against zerg, White-Ra does it often. "What league is this? ^^" And you sorta have a rude tone to everything you say...
In one of the latest WoL matches, it was minigun versus scarlett. Minigun went for carriers, scarlett managed to fungal almost all of the interceptors in one go. And she managed to do that repeatedly. Carriers will focus the same unit when a -moving, most likely, and the interceptors will clump up. If a top player like minigun already doesn't manage to avoid fungals properly, how would you?
The thing about mutalisks is that you didn't attack before the zergs can get up to 5 base, and they can be maxed on mutalisks before you even have a remote chance of securing your expansions or get a decent fleet out. 1 carrier might shut down 10 mutalisks (if you say so), but 5-8 carries do not shut down 60 mutalisks. One mutalisk volley and a carrier is gone.
Carriers are so slow and passive that you will be behind economically beyond any recovery.
a carrier has 450hp and 2 armor.
A mutalisk has 9 damage.
450/(9-2)= 64 mutalisks would one shot a carrier, okay so not 60, 64 ;-).
and of course the mutalisks will wipe out oyur worker lines before engaging your carriers, and by the time they do, the zerg will have banked up so much money that he can easily remax.
I'll play you if you want -> Kaluro.650 EU
after going into the unit tester ->
50 mutalisk kill 8 carriers, with 33 remaining.
40 mutalisks kill 8 carriers, with 20 remaining.
50 mutalisks kill 10 carriers, with 22 remaining.
And these are real numbers, seeing the zerg will have a huge economic lead since you cannot put on any pressure at all.
50 corruptors kill 20 carriers with 30 corruptors remaining.
The carriers had a huge food and cost lead.
And seeing corruptors also gain +2 damage to carriers per upgrade, the more upgrades involved, the further carriers fall behind. Carriers work well in small numbers vs small numbers, but seeing you're not engaging till late-mid game, that's never happpening.
And you most likely won't get the +shields upgrades either?
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On June 06 2013 17:46 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 17:23 Cress wrote:On June 06 2013 16:41 kaluro wrote:
Huh? I've watched both PvZ games.
- In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base
- In game 1, all the zerg had was like 10 queens and 5 hydralisks, at the 15 minute mark, along with maybe 3-4 swarm hosts?
- In game 2, all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark?
Zergs can be maxed on hydralisks by then, or have so many mutalisks out that your low-carrier-count army stands no chance. What league is this? ^^
The zergs couldve gone pure hydra, or roach hydra, pure muta, roach/hydra/muta/corruptor or even a stephano max at 11 minutes and you would have died on the spot. the zerg had 3 bases but no units. It's kind of confusing?
Also like 4 fungals and your entire interceptor fleet is shut down.
In game 3, the zerg made horrible decisions with his hydra positioning and unit choice.
Also carriers are really really slow, and going for example, mass mutalisks ( with a few corruptors to keep those ph oenix away) will shut you down hard. By the time you reached one of their bases, 5 of yours will have been shut down already. not to forget that mutalisks can head on engage your carrier fleet, since you don't put early (enough) pressure on the zerg and mutalisks can focus fire the small amount of carriers you put out. Actually Kaluro Muta's are terrible against carriers, 1 Carrier can hold off 10 muta's and will kill so many before it goes down that its not cost effective. The best choice is probably hydra viper but even this is no auto-win. I'm also confused as to why your saying phoenixs would get shut down by corruptors, None were made. I have to be to put my foot down on the Fungals shut down interceptors, It never works. 90% this won't be effective for the zerg. Go into a unit tester and try it out for yourself make hydra/infestor vs an equal amount of food in carriers 200/200, and attempt to fungal the interceptors with decent carrier spread, Now add the difficulty of positioning inside a game. Saying only 4 fungals can shut down a interceptor fleet is ridiculous. You do sound very sure of yourself that mutalisks trade well with carriers, they don't. "all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark? " I can't tell if this is a troll or not? but it seems to be, What an odd number of units. "In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base" Actually I think theres a game where I let an overlord sit over carriers building for a few minutes without bothering to kill it, Again... troll....? The earliest a zerg can come at you with hydra's is about 9 minutes and your two carriers will shut it down assuming your using the nexus cannon and don't attack the hydra's to hit the carriers. http://www.twitch.tv/sc2cress/c/2376373 go to 32 minutes in, and you will see a zerg who has already played me 3 times in the past, he goes triple hatch before pool, knows no pressure is coming, max's out on a lot of bases spends his money well on corruptors, and its still just not enough. Its kinda just w/e. People on my stream asked for the build and I'm providing that, nothing more I'm surprised actually that your not attacking the use of carriers against terran, when its been known for awhile now that carriers are viable against zerg, White-Ra does it often. "What league is this? ^^" And you sorta have a rude tone to everything you say... In one of the latest WoL matches, it was minigun versus scarlett. Minigun went for carriers, scarlett managed to fungal almost all of the interceptors in one go. And she managed to do that repeatedly. Carriers will focus the same unit when a -moving, most likely, and the interceptors will clump up. If a top player like minigun already doesn't manage to avoid fungals properly, how would you? The thing about mutalisks is that you didn't attack before the zergs can get up to 5 base, and they can be maxed on mutalisks before you even have a remote chance of securing your expansions or get a decent fleet out. 1 carrier might shut down 10 mutalisks (if you say so), but 5-8 carries do not shut down 60 mutalisks. One mutalisk volley and a carrier is gone. Carriers are so slow and passive that you will be behind economically beyond any recovery. a carrier has 450hp and 2 armor. A mutalisk has 9 damage. 450/(9-2)= 64 mutalisks would one shot a carrier, okay so not 60, 64 ;-). and of course the mutalisks will wipe out oyur worker lines before engaging your carriers, and by the time they do, the zerg will have banked up so much money that he can easily remax. I'll play you if you want -> Kaluro.650 EU after going into the unit tester -> 50 mutalisk kill 8 carriers, with 33 remaining. 40 mutalisks kill 8 carriers, with 20 remaining. 50 mutalisks kill 10 carriers, with 22 remaining. And these are real numbers, seeing the zerg will have a huge economic lead since you cannot put on any pressure at all. 50 corruptors kill 20 carriers with 30 corruptors remaining. The carriers had a huge food and cost lead. And seeing corruptors also gain +2 damage to carriers per upgrade, the more upgrades involved, the further carriers fall behind. Carriers work well in small numbers vs small numbers, but seeing you're not engaging till late-mid game, that's never happpening. And you most likely won't get the +shields upgrades either?
this is a silly counter argument.
In WoL, lots of pro zerg died to archon toilet and those zerg who spread well didn't lose to archon toilet but still, lots of pro zerg died to archon toilets. Then is archon toilet viable?
Not to mention fungal in WoL was instant, it was much better to land those fungals. Scarlet is also a higher skilled player than minigun ever was.
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On June 06 2013 18:29 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 17:46 kaluro wrote:On June 06 2013 17:23 Cress wrote:On June 06 2013 16:41 kaluro wrote:
Huh? I've watched both PvZ games.
- In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base
- In game 1, all the zerg had was like 10 queens and 5 hydralisks, at the 15 minute mark, along with maybe 3-4 swarm hosts?
- In game 2, all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark?
Zergs can be maxed on hydralisks by then, or have so many mutalisks out that your low-carrier-count army stands no chance. What league is this? ^^
The zergs couldve gone pure hydra, or roach hydra, pure muta, roach/hydra/muta/corruptor or even a stephano max at 11 minutes and you would have died on the spot. the zerg had 3 bases but no units. It's kind of confusing?
Also like 4 fungals and your entire interceptor fleet is shut down.
In game 3, the zerg made horrible decisions with his hydra positioning and unit choice.
Also carriers are really really slow, and going for example, mass mutalisks ( with a few corruptors to keep those ph oenix away) will shut you down hard. By the time you reached one of their bases, 5 of yours will have been shut down already. not to forget that mutalisks can head on engage your carrier fleet, since you don't put early (enough) pressure on the zerg and mutalisks can focus fire the small amount of carriers you put out. Actually Kaluro Muta's are terrible against carriers, 1 Carrier can hold off 10 muta's and will kill so many before it goes down that its not cost effective. The best choice is probably hydra viper but even this is no auto-win. I'm also confused as to why your saying phoenixs would get shut down by corruptors, None were made. I have to be to put my foot down on the Fungals shut down interceptors, It never works. 90% this won't be effective for the zerg. Go into a unit tester and try it out for yourself make hydra/infestor vs an equal amount of food in carriers 200/200, and attempt to fungal the interceptors with decent carrier spread, Now add the difficulty of positioning inside a game. Saying only 4 fungals can shut down a interceptor fleet is ridiculous. You do sound very sure of yourself that mutalisks trade well with carriers, they don't. "all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark? " I can't tell if this is a troll or not? but it seems to be, What an odd number of units. "In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base" Actually I think theres a game where I let an overlord sit over carriers building for a few minutes without bothering to kill it, Again... troll....? The earliest a zerg can come at you with hydra's is about 9 minutes and your two carriers will shut it down assuming your using the nexus cannon and don't attack the hydra's to hit the carriers. http://www.twitch.tv/sc2cress/c/2376373 go to 32 minutes in, and you will see a zerg who has already played me 3 times in the past, he goes triple hatch before pool, knows no pressure is coming, max's out on a lot of bases spends his money well on corruptors, and its still just not enough. Its kinda just w/e. People on my stream asked for the build and I'm providing that, nothing more I'm surprised actually that your not attacking the use of carriers against terran, when its been known for awhile now that carriers are viable against zerg, White-Ra does it often. "What league is this? ^^" And you sorta have a rude tone to everything you say... In one of the latest WoL matches, it was minigun versus scarlett. Minigun went for carriers, scarlett managed to fungal almost all of the interceptors in one go. And she managed to do that repeatedly. Carriers will focus the same unit when a -moving, most likely, and the interceptors will clump up. If a top player like minigun already doesn't manage to avoid fungals properly, how would you? The thing about mutalisks is that you didn't attack before the zergs can get up to 5 base, and they can be maxed on mutalisks before you even have a remote chance of securing your expansions or get a decent fleet out. 1 carrier might shut down 10 mutalisks (if you say so), but 5-8 carries do not shut down 60 mutalisks. One mutalisk volley and a carrier is gone. Carriers are so slow and passive that you will be behind economically beyond any recovery. a carrier has 450hp and 2 armor. A mutalisk has 9 damage. 450/(9-2)= 64 mutalisks would one shot a carrier, okay so not 60, 64 ;-). and of course the mutalisks will wipe out oyur worker lines before engaging your carriers, and by the time they do, the zerg will have banked up so much money that he can easily remax. I'll play you if you want -> Kaluro.650 EU after going into the unit tester -> 50 mutalisk kill 8 carriers, with 33 remaining. 40 mutalisks kill 8 carriers, with 20 remaining. 50 mutalisks kill 10 carriers, with 22 remaining. And these are real numbers, seeing the zerg will have a huge economic lead since you cannot put on any pressure at all. 50 corruptors kill 20 carriers with 30 corruptors remaining. The carriers had a huge food and cost lead. And seeing corruptors also gain +2 damage to carriers per upgrade, the more upgrades involved, the further carriers fall behind. Carriers work well in small numbers vs small numbers, but seeing you're not engaging till late-mid game, that's never happpening. And you most likely won't get the +shields upgrades either? this is a silly counter argument. In WoL, lots of pro zerg died to archon toilet and those zerg who spread well didn't lose to archon toilet but still, lots of pro zerg died to archon toilets. Then is archon toilet viable? Not to mention fungal in WoL was instant, it was much better to land those fungals. Scarlet is also a higher skilled player than minigun ever was.
True, the new fungal is quite a bit harder to use but in none of the replays he showed, he had any vision of the zerg's current technology, yet he didnt ever split his carriers but merely a-moved them in a clump. theorycrafting is fun but counterproductive, hence my invitation to play him.
Also, the rest of my post still stands.
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On June 06 2013 18:16 Sated wrote:Your opening is incredibly inefficient. If you want to go for a Nexus before Core opening then you should consider using NaNiwa's 13 Gate 17 Nexus opening instead:  13 Gate 17 Nexus (Vs. Terran)In any case, delaying your Core is not something that you should be doing in PvT. What you should actually be doing is opening with a more standard 20 Nexus. You can have two Assimilators operating with only 2 workers in each until after you've expanded, you will be safe against Reapers, your economy will be just as good, and you won't delay the Stargate timing.
yeah the problem I've found with going pylon into core after the expansion is theres about a 25-30 second difference between the nexus cannon timing. You will get out the stalker to scare off the reaper for sure, but with naniwa's build you nexus cannon will be ready at 6:20-6:25, instead of 6:00-6:05, its just a small preference i guess, but you won't be building those gate ways like with naniwa's build you really need that quick nexus cannon
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On June 06 2013 17:46 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 17:23 Cress wrote:On June 06 2013 16:41 kaluro wrote:
Huh? I've watched both PvZ games.
- In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base
- In game 1, all the zerg had was like 10 queens and 5 hydralisks, at the 15 minute mark, along with maybe 3-4 swarm hosts?
- In game 2, all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark?
Zergs can be maxed on hydralisks by then, or have so many mutalisks out that your low-carrier-count army stands no chance. What league is this? ^^
The zergs couldve gone pure hydra, or roach hydra, pure muta, roach/hydra/muta/corruptor or even a stephano max at 11 minutes and you would have died on the spot. the zerg had 3 bases but no units. It's kind of confusing?
Also like 4 fungals and your entire interceptor fleet is shut down.
In game 3, the zerg made horrible decisions with his hydra positioning and unit choice.
Also carriers are really really slow, and going for example, mass mutalisks ( with a few corruptors to keep those ph oenix away) will shut you down hard. By the time you reached one of their bases, 5 of yours will have been shut down already. not to forget that mutalisks can head on engage your carrier fleet, since you don't put early (enough) pressure on the zerg and mutalisks can focus fire the small amount of carriers you put out. Actually Kaluro Muta's are terrible against carriers, 1 Carrier can hold off 10 muta's and will kill so many before it goes down that its not cost effective. The best choice is probably hydra viper but even this is no auto-win. I'm also confused as to why your saying phoenixs would get shut down by corruptors, None were made. I have to be to put my foot down on the Fungals shut down interceptors, It never works. 90% this won't be effective for the zerg. Go into a unit tester and try it out for yourself make hydra/infestor vs an equal amount of food in carriers 200/200, and attempt to fungal the interceptors with decent carrier spread, Now add the difficulty of positioning inside a game. Saying only 4 fungals can shut down a interceptor fleet is ridiculous. You do sound very sure of yourself that mutalisks trade well with carriers, they don't. "all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark? " I can't tell if this is a troll or not? but it seems to be, What an odd number of units. "In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base" Actually I think theres a game where I let an overlord sit over carriers building for a few minutes without bothering to kill it, Again... troll....? The earliest a zerg can come at you with hydra's is about 9 minutes and your two carriers will shut it down assuming your using the nexus cannon and don't attack the hydra's to hit the carriers. http://www.twitch.tv/sc2cress/c/2376373 go to 32 minutes in, and you will see a zerg who has already played me 3 times in the past, he goes triple hatch before pool, knows no pressure is coming, max's out on a lot of bases spends his money well on corruptors, and its still just not enough. Its kinda just w/e. People on my stream asked for the build and I'm providing that, nothing more I'm surprised actually that your not attacking the use of carriers against terran, when its been known for awhile now that carriers are viable against zerg, White-Ra does it often. "What league is this? ^^" And you sorta have a rude tone to everything you say... In one of the latest WoL matches, it was minigun versus scarlett. Minigun went for carriers, scarlett managed to fungal almost all of the interceptors in one go. And she managed to do that repeatedly. Carriers will focus the same unit when a -moving, most likely, and the interceptors will clump up. If a top player like minigun already doesn't manage to avoid fungals properly, how would you? The thing about mutalisks is that you didn't attack before the zergs can get up to 5 base, and they can be maxed on mutalisks before you even have a remote chance of securing your expansions or get a decent fleet out. 1 carrier might shut down 10 mutalisks (if you say so), but 5-8 carries do not shut down 60 mutalisks. One mutalisk volley and a carrier is gone. Carriers are so slow and passive that you will be behind economically beyond any recovery. a carrier has 450hp and 2 armor. A mutalisk has 9 damage. 450/(9-2)= 64 mutalisks would one shot a carrier, okay so not 60, 64 ;-). and of course the mutalisks will wipe out oyur worker lines before engaging your carriers, and by the time they do, the zerg will have banked up so much money that he can easily remax. I'll play you if you want -> Kaluro.650 EU after going into the unit tester -> 50 mutalisk kill 8 carriers, with 33 remaining. 40 mutalisks kill 8 carriers, with 20 remaining. 50 mutalisks kill 10 carriers, with 22 remaining. And these are real numbers, seeing the zerg will have a huge economic lead since you cannot put on any pressure at all. 50 corruptors kill 20 carriers with 30 corruptors remaining. The carriers had a huge food and cost lead. And seeing corruptors also gain +2 damage to carriers per upgrade, the more upgrades involved, the further carriers fall behind. Carriers work well in small numbers vs small numbers, but seeing you're not engaging till late-mid game, that's never happpening. And you most likely won't get the +shields upgrades either?
Kaluro, we need to talk about real numbers, The zerg who goes for two base muta's will have 13-15 muta's at 9-10 minutes. You have alot of excess minerals you can place 2-3 cannons at each base before you move out and have the mothership core for recall, or photon overcharge, 50 muta's is an insane number you won't see that large amount for along time. Saying things like the zerg will have a huge bank while doing quick muta's is silly.
Your numbers are just not accurate, Its like saying in PvT 50 vikings will beat X number of carriers, I'm sure they would, but your job is to prevent the terran from reaching that number by sieging his 3rd and production no?
This whole argument is silly, are you really satisfied trying to think of ways something won't work? I think your time would be better spent thinking of ways of improving the carrier build? making it more soild? no?
Instead of coming up with reasons why I can't build a house out of glass.... Just help me build the glass house dammit...
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On June 06 2013 20:36 Cress wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 17:46 kaluro wrote:On June 06 2013 17:23 Cress wrote:On June 06 2013 16:41 kaluro wrote:
Huh? I've watched both PvZ games.
- In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base
- In game 1, all the zerg had was like 10 queens and 5 hydralisks, at the 15 minute mark, along with maybe 3-4 swarm hosts?
- In game 2, all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark?
Zergs can be maxed on hydralisks by then, or have so many mutalisks out that your low-carrier-count army stands no chance. What league is this? ^^
The zergs couldve gone pure hydra, or roach hydra, pure muta, roach/hydra/muta/corruptor or even a stephano max at 11 minutes and you would have died on the spot. the zerg had 3 bases but no units. It's kind of confusing?
Also like 4 fungals and your entire interceptor fleet is shut down.
In game 3, the zerg made horrible decisions with his hydra positioning and unit choice.
Also carriers are really really slow, and going for example, mass mutalisks ( with a few corruptors to keep those ph oenix away) will shut you down hard. By the time you reached one of their bases, 5 of yours will have been shut down already. not to forget that mutalisks can head on engage your carrier fleet, since you don't put early (enough) pressure on the zerg and mutalisks can focus fire the small amount of carriers you put out. Actually Kaluro Muta's are terrible against carriers, 1 Carrier can hold off 10 muta's and will kill so many before it goes down that its not cost effective. The best choice is probably hydra viper but even this is no auto-win. I'm also confused as to why your saying phoenixs would get shut down by corruptors, None were made. I have to be to put my foot down on the Fungals shut down interceptors, It never works. 90% this won't be effective for the zerg. Go into a unit tester and try it out for yourself make hydra/infestor vs an equal amount of food in carriers 200/200, and attempt to fungal the interceptors with decent carrier spread, Now add the difficulty of positioning inside a game. Saying only 4 fungals can shut down a interceptor fleet is ridiculous. You do sound very sure of yourself that mutalisks trade well with carriers, they don't. "all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark? " I can't tell if this is a troll or not? but it seems to be, What an odd number of units. "In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base" Actually I think theres a game where I let an overlord sit over carriers building for a few minutes without bothering to kill it, Again... troll....? The earliest a zerg can come at you with hydra's is about 9 minutes and your two carriers will shut it down assuming your using the nexus cannon and don't attack the hydra's to hit the carriers. http://www.twitch.tv/sc2cress/c/2376373 go to 32 minutes in, and you will see a zerg who has already played me 3 times in the past, he goes triple hatch before pool, knows no pressure is coming, max's out on a lot of bases spends his money well on corruptors, and its still just not enough. Its kinda just w/e. People on my stream asked for the build and I'm providing that, nothing more I'm surprised actually that your not attacking the use of carriers against terran, when its been known for awhile now that carriers are viable against zerg, White-Ra does it often. "What league is this? ^^" And you sorta have a rude tone to everything you say... In one of the latest WoL matches, it was minigun versus scarlett. Minigun went for carriers, scarlett managed to fungal almost all of the interceptors in one go. And she managed to do that repeatedly. Carriers will focus the same unit when a -moving, most likely, and the interceptors will clump up. If a top player like minigun already doesn't manage to avoid fungals properly, how would you? The thing about mutalisks is that you didn't attack before the zergs can get up to 5 base, and they can be maxed on mutalisks before you even have a remote chance of securing your expansions or get a decent fleet out. 1 carrier might shut down 10 mutalisks (if you say so), but 5-8 carries do not shut down 60 mutalisks. One mutalisk volley and a carrier is gone. Carriers are so slow and passive that you will be behind economically beyond any recovery. a carrier has 450hp and 2 armor. A mutalisk has 9 damage. 450/(9-2)= 64 mutalisks would one shot a carrier, okay so not 60, 64 ;-). and of course the mutalisks will wipe out oyur worker lines before engaging your carriers, and by the time they do, the zerg will have banked up so much money that he can easily remax. I'll play you if you want -> Kaluro.650 EU after going into the unit tester -> 50 mutalisk kill 8 carriers, with 33 remaining. 40 mutalisks kill 8 carriers, with 20 remaining. 50 mutalisks kill 10 carriers, with 22 remaining. And these are real numbers, seeing the zerg will have a huge economic lead since you cannot put on any pressure at all. 50 corruptors kill 20 carriers with 30 corruptors remaining. The carriers had a huge food and cost lead. And seeing corruptors also gain +2 damage to carriers per upgrade, the more upgrades involved, the further carriers fall behind. Carriers work well in small numbers vs small numbers, but seeing you're not engaging till late-mid game, that's never happpening. And you most likely won't get the +shields upgrades either? Kaluro, we need to talk about real numbers, The zerg who goes for two base muta's will have 13-15 muta's at 9-10 minutes. You have alot of excess minerals you can place 2-3 cannons at each base before you move out and have the mothership core for recall, or photon overcharge, 50 muta's is an insane number you won't see that large amount for along time. Saying things like the zerg will have a huge bank while doing quick muta's is silly. Your numbers are just not accurate, Its like saying in PvT 50 vikings will beat X number of carriers, I'm sure they would, but your job is to prevent the terran from reaching that number by sieging his 3rd and production no? This whole argument is silly, are you really satisfied trying to think of ways something won't work? I think your time would be better spent thinking of ways of improving the carrier build? making it more soild? no? Instead of coming up with reasons why I can't build a house out of glass.... Just help me build the glass house dammit...
The 1v1 invite still stands though  . Better than theorycrafting, since that's just constant rope pulling.
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On June 06 2013 20:22 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 20:18 Cress wrote:On June 06 2013 18:16 Sated wrote:Your opening is incredibly inefficient. If you want to go for a Nexus before Core opening then you should consider using NaNiwa's 13 Gate 17 Nexus opening instead: 13 Gate 17 Nexus (Vs. Terran)In any case, delaying your Core is not something that you should be doing in PvT. What you should actually be doing is opening with a more standard 20 Nexus. You can have two Assimilators operating with only 2 workers in each until after you've expanded, you will be safe against Reapers, your economy will be just as good, and you won't delay the Stargate timing. yeah the problem I've found with going pylon into core after the expansion is theres about a 25-30 second difference between the nexus cannon timing. You will get out the stalker to scare off the reaper for sure, but with naniwa's build you nexus cannon will be ready at 6:20-6:25, instead of 6:00-6:05, its just a small preference i guess, but you won't be building those gate ways like with naniwa's build you really need that quick nexus cannon I think you've misunderstood. I don't think that any Nexus before Core opening is good against Terran, unless you can somehow scout that they're 100% not going to build a Reaper.
Ah well you could be right, losing 1-2 workers to the reaper does kinda suck, You can 9 scout and know 100% of the time if its a reaper opening or not. You could do a core double gas expand, but then we're talking a 4 minute expand or later. The expand is so fast and the reaper delays the terrans expand slightly over going gasless, so I normally just take the worker hit.
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Is this NA masters league? wow...
I dont think that there is a chance that it would work on a T twice / on a T who actively scouts and scans you.
I watched a replay and was dying a little inside.
1. Marauders are awesome against carriers
2. Terrible engagements in chokes with bio
3. no widow mines in engagements
4. no mass expand / using mobility of bio
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shutup ginger. state uses a carrier build in pvt sometimes and wins like 40-50% of the time at a high gm level in pvt so i'm sure this isn't the worst build ever.
anyway, cress what's your win % pvz?
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On June 06 2013 21:58 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Is this NA masters league? wow...
I dont think that there is a chance that it would work on a T twice / on a T who actively scouts and scans you.
I watched a replay and was dying a little inside.
1. Marauders are awesome against carriers
2. Terrible engagements in chokes with bio
3. no widow mines in engagements
4. no mass expand / using mobility of bio
Widow mines don't tend to be very good against carriers and I'm pretty sure there are mass expand games and drops being used. I could show you a game where a massive amount of widow mines are created in the early game and its pretty bad. Your point number 2 is good, if you always follow the number one rule of going carriers "Stay over none passable terrain" bio will always have Terrible engagements, Thats the point xD. They will never get a good grip if you micro weak carriers back to dead space.
Also the build will work twice, Any build will be weaker the second time its used but you make it sound like Its an easy counter >.> Its not like I'm going DT's where its a big surprise. You can put all your money into vikings and marines and still lose. You act like because a terran did not scan the right location between 8-9 minutes and made a few marauders they are suddenly a bad terran who does not know what they were doing.
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On June 06 2013 22:16 aldochillbro wrote:
shutup ginger. state uses a carrier build in pvt sometimes and wins like 40-50% of the time at a high gm level in pvt so i'm sure this isn't the worst build ever.
anyway, cress what's your win % pvz?
Well on my other accounts I have not used the carrier build 100%. I have a new account that I've only been doing the Carrier build on in PvZ-PvT It's like 80% though, You can still lose to proxy hatchs and six pools all the same xD. My win rate for terran is at 100% still.
Once the carriers get the momentum its difficult to stop. It also can be map dependent some maps have more dead space then others, Carriers get raped in open ground. You need space to micro weak carriers back. Always travel along the sides of the map, Even I fail to do this a lot of the time xD
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On June 06 2013 22:57 Cress wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 22:16 aldochillbro wrote:
shutup ginger. state uses a carrier build in pvt sometimes and wins like 40-50% of the time at a high gm level in pvt so i'm sure this isn't the worst build ever.
anyway, cress what's your win % pvz? Well on my other accounts I have not used the carrier build 100%. I have a new account that I've only been doing the Carrier build on in PvZ-PvT It's like 80% though, You can still lose to proxy hatchs and six pools all the same xD. My win rate for terran is at 100% still. Once the carriers get the momentum its difficult to stop. It also can be map dependent some maps have more dead space then others, Carriers get raped in open ground. You need space to micro weak carriers back. Always travel along the sides of the map, Even I fail to do this a lot of the time xD
You havent replied to my 1on1 request, yet you keep dismissing my zerg insight.
also your strategy works because anyone below high master will just blindly metagame and when a new build is introduced they will choke and do badly.
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On June 06 2013 22:49 Cress wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 21:58 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Is this NA masters league? wow...
I dont think that there is a chance that it would work on a T twice / on a T who actively scouts and scans you.
I watched a replay and was dying a little inside.
1. Marauders are awesome against carriers
2. Terrible engagements in chokes with bio
3. no widow mines in engagements
4. no mass expand / using mobility of bio Widow mines don't tend to be very good against carriers and I'm pretty sure there are mass expand games and drops being used. I could show you a game where a massive amount of widow mines are created in the early game and its pretty bad. Your point number 2 is good, if you always follow the number one rule of going carriers "Stay over none passable terrain" bio will always have Terrible engagements, Thats the point xD. They will never get a good grip if you micro weak carriers back to dead space. Also the build will work twice, Any build will be weaker the second time its used but you make it sound like Its an easy counter >.> Its not like I'm going DT's where its a big surprise. You can put all your money into vikings and marines and still lose. You act like because a terran did not scan the right location between 8-9 minutes and made a few marauders they are suddenly a bad terran who does not know what they were doing.
Let me clarify the widow mine usage:
I would use it in the mid-late game to zone out the carriers. Move with bio to a expansion while knowing where the carrier army is, then planting 5 or mines between the armies like before a ledge or something where i know you would abuse the terrain. You have to slow down and kill the mines while i stim my marines and kill structures.
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On June 06 2013 23:16 gingerfluffmuff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 22:49 Cress wrote:On June 06 2013 21:58 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Is this NA masters league? wow...
I dont think that there is a chance that it would work on a T twice / on a T who actively scouts and scans you.
I watched a replay and was dying a little inside.
1. Marauders are awesome against carriers
2. Terrible engagements in chokes with bio
3. no widow mines in engagements
4. no mass expand / using mobility of bio Widow mines don't tend to be very good against carriers and I'm pretty sure there are mass expand games and drops being used. I could show you a game where a massive amount of widow mines are created in the early game and its pretty bad. Your point number 2 is good, if you always follow the number one rule of going carriers "Stay over none passable terrain" bio will always have Terrible engagements, Thats the point xD. They will never get a good grip if you micro weak carriers back to dead space. Also the build will work twice, Any build will be weaker the second time its used but you make it sound like Its an easy counter >.> Its not like I'm going DT's where its a big surprise. You can put all your money into vikings and marines and still lose. You act like because a terran did not scan the right location between 8-9 minutes and made a few marauders they are suddenly a bad terran who does not know what they were doing. Let me clarify the widow mine usage: I would use it in the mid-late game to zone out the carriers. Move with bio to a expansion while knowing where the carrier army is, then planting 5 or mines between the armies like before a ledge or something where i know you would abuse the terrain. You have to slow down and kill the mines while i stim my marines and kill structures.
I have no idea bro, I thought you were talking about the usage of like 30 widow mines. I think the carriers in a late game situation could fly over those five widow mines and not care at all xD. The problem with widow mines is if your marines are between the carriers and widow mines, theres a chance the mines could go off on the marines when they lock onto an interceptor. I'm not saying mines are not useful, but I've yet to see them see a bulk of interceptors or deter carriers from walking over them xD
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On June 06 2013 23:13 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 22:57 Cress wrote:On June 06 2013 22:16 aldochillbro wrote:
shutup ginger. state uses a carrier build in pvt sometimes and wins like 40-50% of the time at a high gm level in pvt so i'm sure this isn't the worst build ever.
anyway, cress what's your win % pvz? Well on my other accounts I have not used the carrier build 100%. I have a new account that I've only been doing the Carrier build on in PvZ-PvT It's like 80% though, You can still lose to proxy hatchs and six pools all the same xD. My win rate for terran is at 100% still. Once the carriers get the momentum its difficult to stop. It also can be map dependent some maps have more dead space then others, Carriers get raped in open ground. You need space to micro weak carriers back. Always travel along the sides of the map, Even I fail to do this a lot of the time xD You havent replied to my 1on1 request, yet you keep dismissing my zerg insight. also your strategy works because anyone below high master will just blindly metagame and when a new build is introduced they will choke and do badly.
Well its pretty easy to dodge 1v1 requests when your at work xD. I never dismissed your zerg insight. Insight would be sharing some experiences you've had with carriers in the past. You brought information about how 50 muta's would own X number of carriers in a unit tester.
Saying the strategy only works against bad players is an odd claim. Its almost like you wanna crush this type of build from ever entering the meta and making your life as zerg hell xD. That seems to be the purpose and tone of your 1v1 challenge.
The fact that you say, This build will Never Never!!! Never!! work!! Ever!! and if I beat you in a 1v1 thats proof 100%, Which is surprising considering I open the thread with:
"I might have a decent fun and viable build for reaching mass carriers against terran and zerg. I can't say if its possible or not to make it viable at the highest level of play, but it shows promise and its by far the most fun I've ever had playing this game."
You sir are the enemy of anything fun, as you wish to destroy it before it can ever bloom xD,
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On June 07 2013 00:49 Sated wrote:
EDIT:
I find it funny that this, "Your strategy sucks, play me and I will prove it" kind of thing is actually the Strategy Forum's equivalent to "Bro, do you even lift? I will destroy you IRL" :D
People need to start using "Bro, do you even ladder?"
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On June 07 2013 00:49 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 23:13 kaluro wrote:On June 06 2013 22:57 Cress wrote:On June 06 2013 22:16 aldochillbro wrote:
shutup ginger. state uses a carrier build in pvt sometimes and wins like 40-50% of the time at a high gm level in pvt so i'm sure this isn't the worst build ever.
anyway, cress what's your win % pvz? Well on my other accounts I have not used the carrier build 100%. I have a new account that I've only been doing the Carrier build on in PvZ-PvT It's like 80% though, You can still lose to proxy hatchs and six pools all the same xD. My win rate for terran is at 100% still. Once the carriers get the momentum its difficult to stop. It also can be map dependent some maps have more dead space then others, Carriers get raped in open ground. You need space to micro weak carriers back. Always travel along the sides of the map, Even I fail to do this a lot of the time xD You havent replied to my 1on1 request, yet you keep dismissing my zerg insight. also your strategy works because anyone below high master will just blindly metagame and when a new build is introduced they will choke and do badly. Playing a strategy against someone who knows exactly what you're going to do isn't a fair test of how good that strategy is. Most strategies will have specific weaknesses if someone plays to those weaknesses from the very start of the game, but they won't have those same weaknesses when the opponent has to respond to what is going on (even if they know the correct response). For example, if I know that a Zerg is going to go 2 Base Mutalisk before the game starts then I will crush their face every single time, but if I have to scout and respond then I won't crush their face every single time despite knowing how my build is supposed to react to 2 Base Mutalisk openings. Having to scout and react is really important; if it wasn't then map-hacks wouldn't be such a massive problem. Another reason why it isn't a fair test is because it could just be the case that one player is better than the other, and will win regardless of the strength of a strategy (or at least have an advantage regardless of the strength of a strategy). EDIT: I find it funny that this, "Your strategy sucks, play me and I will prove it" kind of thing is actually the Strategy Forum's equivalent to "Bro, do you even lift? I will destroy you IRL" :D
Yeah the real issue with this is even if he completely stomps Cress, it means nothing. There is nothing to prove they are similar skill and I'm sure if Kaluro is a better player he'll beat him handily, especially when knowing exactly what his opponent's doing. If he plays Cress and gets destroyed, still means nothing. He could just be a terrible player.
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On June 07 2013 01:32 Venomsflame wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 00:49 Sated wrote:On June 06 2013 23:13 kaluro wrote:On June 06 2013 22:57 Cress wrote:On June 06 2013 22:16 aldochillbro wrote:
shutup ginger. state uses a carrier build in pvt sometimes and wins like 40-50% of the time at a high gm level in pvt so i'm sure this isn't the worst build ever.
anyway, cress what's your win % pvz? Well on my other accounts I have not used the carrier build 100%. I have a new account that I've only been doing the Carrier build on in PvZ-PvT It's like 80% though, You can still lose to proxy hatchs and six pools all the same xD. My win rate for terran is at 100% still. Once the carriers get the momentum its difficult to stop. It also can be map dependent some maps have more dead space then others, Carriers get raped in open ground. You need space to micro weak carriers back. Always travel along the sides of the map, Even I fail to do this a lot of the time xD You havent replied to my 1on1 request, yet you keep dismissing my zerg insight. also your strategy works because anyone below high master will just blindly metagame and when a new build is introduced they will choke and do badly. Playing a strategy against someone who knows exactly what you're going to do isn't a fair test of how good that strategy is. Most strategies will have specific weaknesses if someone plays to those weaknesses from the very start of the game, but they won't have those same weaknesses when the opponent has to respond to what is going on (even if they know the correct response). For example, if I know that a Zerg is going to go 2 Base Mutalisk before the game starts then I will crush their face every single time, but if I have to scout and respond then I won't crush their face every single time despite knowing how my build is supposed to react to 2 Base Mutalisk openings. Having to scout and react is really important; if it wasn't then map-hacks wouldn't be such a massive problem. Another reason why it isn't a fair test is because it could just be the case that one player is better than the other, and will win regardless of the strength of a strategy (or at least have an advantage regardless of the strength of a strategy). EDIT: I find it funny that this, "Your strategy sucks, play me and I will prove it" kind of thing is actually the Strategy Forum's equivalent to "Bro, do you even lift? I will destroy you IRL" :D Yeah the real issue with this is even if he completely stomps Cress, it means nothing. There is nothing to prove they are similar skill and I'm sure if Kaluro is a better player he'll beat him handily, especially when knowing exactly what his opponent's doing. If he plays Cress and gets destroyed, still means nothing. He could just be a terrible player.
Nope, you missed the point.
On June 07 2013 00:49 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 23:13 kaluro wrote:On June 06 2013 22:57 Cress wrote:On June 06 2013 22:16 aldochillbro wrote:
shutup ginger. state uses a carrier build in pvt sometimes and wins like 40-50% of the time at a high gm level in pvt so i'm sure this isn't the worst build ever.
anyway, cress what's your win % pvz? Well on my other accounts I have not used the carrier build 100%. I have a new account that I've only been doing the Carrier build on in PvZ-PvT It's like 80% though, You can still lose to proxy hatchs and six pools all the same xD. My win rate for terran is at 100% still. Once the carriers get the momentum its difficult to stop. It also can be map dependent some maps have more dead space then others, Carriers get raped in open ground. You need space to micro weak carriers back. Always travel along the sides of the map, Even I fail to do this a lot of the time xD You havent replied to my 1on1 request, yet you keep dismissing my zerg insight. also your strategy works because anyone below high master will just blindly metagame and when a new build is introduced they will choke and do badly. Playing a strategy against someone who knows exactly what you're going to do isn't a fair test of how good that strategy is. Most strategies will have specific weaknesses if someone plays to those weaknesses from the very start of the game, but they won't have those same weaknesses when the opponent has to respond to what is going on (even if they know the correct response). For example, if I know that a Zerg is going to go 2 Base Mutalisk before the game starts then I will crush their face every single time, but if I have to scout and respond then I won't crush their face every single time despite knowing how my build is supposed to react to 2 Base Mutalisk openings. Having to scout and react is really important; if it wasn't then map-hacks wouldn't be such a massive problem. Another reason why it isn't a fair test is because it could just be the case that one player is better than the other, and will win regardless of the strength of a strategy (or at least have an advantage regardless of the strength of a strategy). EDIT: I find it funny that this, "Your strategy sucks, play me and I will prove it" kind of thing is actually the Strategy Forum's equivalent to "Bro, do you even lift? I will destroy you IRL" :D
you missed the point too 
Cress claims that zergs are unable to get a decent mutalisk fleet out, before he gets up to a huge number of carriers, while I claim the opposite.
I don't care whether I face a GM or him, all I want to show is that the numbers I put out are quite realistic, without them being discarded straight away.
Whether someone opens up a stephano max and has 200/200 at his doorstep @ 11 min (You don't need to be able to shoot up, to overrun someone who is going exclusively carriers with no sentries at all), opens up a mutalisk/corruptor combination on 4/5 bases and gets maxed extremely quickly, since there's no gateway pressure, or whatever else, I'm in it for the numbers
It's not about "See, I win, your strategy sucks", It's about showing him that numbers are accurate and that he shouldn't be discarding them so hastily.
What you guys are putting it off as, is that it's for the e-peen, to discard his strategy as a whole. I told him that i can have 50 mutalisks or 30 corrruptors out before he has a critical fleet of carriers, he told me that wasn't true. So instead of going for the infinite yes/no/yes/no/yes/no theory, I invited him to put it to the test.
So instead of putting posts out of context, giving a nasty swing to it and making it sound like I'm an alpha male trying to see who's more alpha, lets keep it real shall we .
And seeing it's purely for the numbers' sake, I find things to be irrelevant whether or not I know what I'm up against.
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On June 07 2013 05:38 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 01:32 Venomsflame wrote:On June 07 2013 00:49 Sated wrote:On June 06 2013 23:13 kaluro wrote:On June 06 2013 22:57 Cress wrote:On June 06 2013 22:16 aldochillbro wrote:
shutup ginger. state uses a carrier build in pvt sometimes and wins like 40-50% of the time at a high gm level in pvt so i'm sure this isn't the worst build ever.
anyway, cress what's your win % pvz? Well on my other accounts I have not used the carrier build 100%. I have a new account that I've only been doing the Carrier build on in PvZ-PvT It's like 80% though, You can still lose to proxy hatchs and six pools all the same xD. My win rate for terran is at 100% still. Once the carriers get the momentum its difficult to stop. It also can be map dependent some maps have more dead space then others, Carriers get raped in open ground. You need space to micro weak carriers back. Always travel along the sides of the map, Even I fail to do this a lot of the time xD You havent replied to my 1on1 request, yet you keep dismissing my zerg insight. also your strategy works because anyone below high master will just blindly metagame and when a new build is introduced they will choke and do badly. Playing a strategy against someone who knows exactly what you're going to do isn't a fair test of how good that strategy is. Most strategies will have specific weaknesses if someone plays to those weaknesses from the very start of the game, but they won't have those same weaknesses when the opponent has to respond to what is going on (even if they know the correct response). For example, if I know that a Zerg is going to go 2 Base Mutalisk before the game starts then I will crush their face every single time, but if I have to scout and respond then I won't crush their face every single time despite knowing how my build is supposed to react to 2 Base Mutalisk openings. Having to scout and react is really important; if it wasn't then map-hacks wouldn't be such a massive problem. Another reason why it isn't a fair test is because it could just be the case that one player is better than the other, and will win regardless of the strength of a strategy (or at least have an advantage regardless of the strength of a strategy). EDIT: I find it funny that this, "Your strategy sucks, play me and I will prove it" kind of thing is actually the Strategy Forum's equivalent to "Bro, do you even lift? I will destroy you IRL" :D Yeah the real issue with this is even if he completely stomps Cress, it means nothing. There is nothing to prove they are similar skill and I'm sure if Kaluro is a better player he'll beat him handily, especially when knowing exactly what his opponent's doing. If he plays Cress and gets destroyed, still means nothing. He could just be a terrible player. Nope, you missed the point. Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 00:49 Sated wrote:On June 06 2013 23:13 kaluro wrote:On June 06 2013 22:57 Cress wrote:On June 06 2013 22:16 aldochillbro wrote:
shutup ginger. state uses a carrier build in pvt sometimes and wins like 40-50% of the time at a high gm level in pvt so i'm sure this isn't the worst build ever.
anyway, cress what's your win % pvz? Well on my other accounts I have not used the carrier build 100%. I have a new account that I've only been doing the Carrier build on in PvZ-PvT It's like 80% though, You can still lose to proxy hatchs and six pools all the same xD. My win rate for terran is at 100% still. Once the carriers get the momentum its difficult to stop. It also can be map dependent some maps have more dead space then others, Carriers get raped in open ground. You need space to micro weak carriers back. Always travel along the sides of the map, Even I fail to do this a lot of the time xD You havent replied to my 1on1 request, yet you keep dismissing my zerg insight. also your strategy works because anyone below high master will just blindly metagame and when a new build is introduced they will choke and do badly. Playing a strategy against someone who knows exactly what you're going to do isn't a fair test of how good that strategy is. Most strategies will have specific weaknesses if someone plays to those weaknesses from the very start of the game, but they won't have those same weaknesses when the opponent has to respond to what is going on (even if they know the correct response). For example, if I know that a Zerg is going to go 2 Base Mutalisk before the game starts then I will crush their face every single time, but if I have to scout and respond then I won't crush their face every single time despite knowing how my build is supposed to react to 2 Base Mutalisk openings. Having to scout and react is really important; if it wasn't then map-hacks wouldn't be such a massive problem. Another reason why it isn't a fair test is because it could just be the case that one player is better than the other, and will win regardless of the strength of a strategy (or at least have an advantage regardless of the strength of a strategy). EDIT: I find it funny that this, "Your strategy sucks, play me and I will prove it" kind of thing is actually the Strategy Forum's equivalent to "Bro, do you even lift? I will destroy you IRL" :D you missed the point too Cress claims that zergs are unable to get a decent mutalisk fleet out, before he gets up to a huge number of carriers, while I claim the opposite. I don't care whether I face a GM or him, all I want to show is that the numbers I put out are quite realistic, without them being discarded straight away. Whether someone opens up a stephano max and has 200/200 at his doorstep @ 11 min (You don't need to be able to shoot up, to overrun someone who is going exclusively carriers with no sentries at all), opens up a mutalisk/corruptor combination on 4/5 bases and gets maxed extremely quickly, since there's no gateway pressure, or whatever else, I'm in it for the numbers It's not about "See, I win, your strategy sucks", It's about showing him that numbers are accurate and that he shouldn't be discarding them so hastily. What you guys are putting it off as, is that it's for the e-peen, to discard his strategy as a whole. I told him that i can have 50 mutalisks or 30 corrruptors out before he has a critical fleet of carriers, he told me that wasn't true. So instead of going for the infinite yes/no/yes/no/yes/no theory, I invited him to put it to the test. So instead of putting posts out of context, giving a nasty swing to it and making it sound like I'm an alpha male trying to see who's more alpha, lets keep it real shall we . And seeing it's purely for the numbers' sake, I find things to be irrelevant whether or not I know what I'm up against.
Critical fleet of carriers? that's not what the builds about. Its about harassment with small forces of carriers in the early game to delay ideal composition from getting out and winning the game doing a fun as hell strategy.
The fact that you say theres no gateway pressure is lulz ish, how do you know theres no gateway pressure with that version when its a gateway expand >.> oh, you read the build order and every detail, its not a fair test.
You could open triple hatch before pool and not be able to punish it greatly with just a zealot and stalker, Inless you switched into a 4 gate off of two base, Protoss is a "Surprise race" Its not terran or zerg. There's reason protoss tend to do better in bo1-bo3's instead of bo5-bo07.
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"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
Maybe Terran was just clueless as to how to deal with this.
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On June 07 2013 09:13 dUTtrOACh wrote:"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Maybe Terran was just clueless as to how to deal with this.
No, They are not clueless, they know to make marines/vikings take alot of bases and drop alot. Theres no hard counter per say, It really comes down to position and micro of the carriers, Its down to the protoss to make a mistake with the carriers The terran will have many chances to kill them and he only has to get it "right" once, Never the less Its still alot of fun to do. That was the point behind sharing the build
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Cress, could you watch this replay for me? I'm in Diamond. PvZ. He denied first oracle with 2 queens. Then went fast hydra and denied the 3-4 carrier harass. Then just massed corrupter/hydra and steam rolled me. Please watch and tell me what I should have done differently. Thanks.
http://drop.sc/340766
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I used to build carriers in PvP at the end of WoL and I had a pretty good winrate with it in masters, but other protoss have gotten a lot better at dealing with stargate, so it might not be viable anymore. It was stargate/2gate/robo on 1base and then add fleet beacon and add carriers once natural gets saturated -> push with zealot/immortal/carrier while they're still on stalkers. It might still work because people still like their stalkers, but charglot/archon should deal with it. Carriers were more like the retard magnet of that build while immortals did the damage.
I really want to make carriers work PvT, so I'll try that some.
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On June 07 2013 16:59 RaptorPete wrote:Cress, could you watch this replay for me? I'm in Diamond. PvZ. He denied first oracle with 2 queens. Then went fast hydra and denied the 3-4 carrier harass. Then just massed corrupter/hydra and steam rolled me. Please watch and tell me what I should have done differently. Thanks. http://drop.sc/340766
Yeah I took a look at the replay, Your probe saturation is poor, You wanna have 3 workers on each gas and 16 on minerals and have both carriers started at 8:00-8:10. You also waited too long to take your second gas. You should work on refining your build, Once its crisp, work on your Micro and movement of your carriers around the map, this is quite hard to master, I still fuck it up myself. I'll move my carriers through bad area's of the map and get punished for it, Always have an area around the terrain to retreat too, and you'll do alright, But first you need probes and pylons my friend. I'll pluck some replays for you.
I got a new account this week. Just for Carriers in PvT and PvZ, Its unfortunately ladder locked in diamond, its still masters games though
This zerg was quite embarrassed losing to carriers: http://drop.sc/340775.
Always stay around the edges of the map and unpassble terrain, and snipe bases and force bad engagements from the zerg, if your opponent, Zerg or terran. Gets their desired composition, you will die. Need to prevent this and keep their economy low
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On June 07 2013 21:41 Cress wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 16:59 RaptorPete wrote:Cress, could you watch this replay for me? I'm in Diamond. PvZ. He denied first oracle with 2 queens. Then went fast hydra and denied the 3-4 carrier harass. Then just massed corrupter/hydra and steam rolled me. Please watch and tell me what I should have done differently. Thanks. http://drop.sc/340766 Yeah I took a look at the replay, Your probe saturation is poor, You wanna have 3 workers on each gas and 16 on minerals and have both carriers started at 8:00-8:10. You also waited too long to take your second gas. You should work on refining your build, Once its crisp, work on your Micro and movement of your carriers around the map, this is quite hard to master, I still fuck it up myself. I'll move my carriers through bad area's of the map and get punished for it, Always have an area around the terrain to retreat too, and you'll do alright, But first you need probes and pylons my friend. I'll pluck some replays for you. I got a new account this week. Just for Carriers in PvT and PvZ, Its unfortunately ladder locked in diamond, its still masters games though This zerg was quite embarrassed losing to carriers: http://drop.sc/340775. Always stay around the edges of the map and unpassble terrain, and snipe bases and force bad engagements from the zerg, if your opponent, Zerg or terran. Gets their desired composition, you will die. Need to prevent this and keep their economy low
Thanks for the advice. I do have another question for you though. Assuming I had a good economy but was still for some reason unable to harass, can you comment on his amount of Hydra/Corrupter? I guess my concern is, if I were to have max carrier/void versus his max hydra/corrupter, does the carrier/void win?
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On June 08 2013 06:16 RaptorPete wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 21:41 Cress wrote:On June 07 2013 16:59 RaptorPete wrote:Cress, could you watch this replay for me? I'm in Diamond. PvZ. He denied first oracle with 2 queens. Then went fast hydra and denied the 3-4 carrier harass. Then just massed corrupter/hydra and steam rolled me. Please watch and tell me what I should have done differently. Thanks. http://drop.sc/340766 Yeah I took a look at the replay, Your probe saturation is poor, You wanna have 3 workers on each gas and 16 on minerals and have both carriers started at 8:00-8:10. You also waited too long to take your second gas. You should work on refining your build, Once its crisp, work on your Micro and movement of your carriers around the map, this is quite hard to master, I still fuck it up myself. I'll move my carriers through bad area's of the map and get punished for it, Always have an area around the terrain to retreat too, and you'll do alright, But first you need probes and pylons my friend. I'll pluck some replays for you. I got a new account this week. Just for Carriers in PvT and PvZ, Its unfortunately ladder locked in diamond, its still masters games though This zerg was quite embarrassed losing to carriers: http://drop.sc/340775. Always stay around the edges of the map and unpassble terrain, and snipe bases and force bad engagements from the zerg, if your opponent, Zerg or terran. Gets their desired composition, you will die. Need to prevent this and keep their economy low Thanks for the advice. I do have another question for you though. Assuming I had a good economy but was still for some reason unable to harass, can you comment on his amount of Hydra/Corrupter? I guess my concern is, if I were to have max carrier/void versus his max hydra/corrupter, does the carrier/void win?
There's just not a whole lot to say about the game, the build was done incorrect . You wanna build that forge after the carriers are started. Your carriers were 2 full minutes late and you stopped making carriers after. You should have had 4-5 carriers when you had 2. Focus on refinement of the build order.
After you have the refinement and macro down then focus on positioning. I added an Rules Of Engagement section to the OP that makes mention of your overall game plan when moving around the map.
Also to anwser your question about hydra/corrupter Its not really possible to go for both of these. If they do go for this composition then its up to you to make the "right" amount of void rays and carriers. Plus hydra's can't fly last I checked, so make use of dead space against them. Force a fight at a base over dead space or bad terrain you could call it. Muta/Corruptor is also the same way you need the correct amount of voids and carriers. The carriers will deal with the muta's well and the voids will rape the corruptors. Its always possible to get the amount wrong on either the zergs side or protoss's though.
Playing the build a lot is how your gain this experience. Even I'm not good at scout and doing this build well. My micro/positioning is not ideal half the time either. But I make mental notes each time and learn.
Nobody does anything like this, Its a bit uncharted territory.Yes I know carriers have been used a lot in the past, That's with gate way support however. Those Rules of engagement don't really apply to the gateway/carrier style.
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Im not reading the whole thead but what do you do if zerg goes swarm host (around 15) and rest hydra? I played this kinda protoss play today and just made that and sieged his expansions forcing him to come out to bad positions to my hydra concaves until he couldnt affort to make enough units and cannons.
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On June 08 2013 21:19 FinBenton wrote:
Im not reading the whole thead but what do you do if zerg goes swarm host (around 15) and rest hydra? I played this kinda protoss play today and just made that and sieged his expansions forcing him to come out to bad positions to my hydra concaves until he couldnt affort to make enough units and cannons.
I've encountered swarm host before. Swarm host/corruptor and swarm host/hydra. I dunno I've seen zerg make 5-8 swarm hosts. thats common, If you made 15 I don't think you would have the money for the hydra's and corruptors that you absolutely need to prevent the carriers from killing a base. If you had timings of how many hydra's and swarm hosts would show up and when would help some. I've never lost to swarm hosts though. The idea of this carrier style is to never allow your opponent to reach his desired composition. Hydra's are pretty bad at stoping the carriers from sniping a base usually too. Corruptors can force the carriers to recall usually which buys you more time, but they are weak to void rays, its a bit of a toss up.
Getting out enough hydra's to force the carriers back and 3000 minerals / 1500 gas is quite a bit. Even just mass hydra is difficult. I think your better off just sniping a base when the carriers are out of position or something. Swarm hosts are a large investment in a unit that does not shoot up to kill a base that does not matter a lot. The carriers them selfs are the life blood of the protoss.
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I do not think this is a viable build in basically any league from platinum up. Certainly not in masters. I have tried this about 7-8 times and lost every single one of the games before carriers were even out. In one game I got some carriers out which were crushed by pure marines (altough I violated the rule about engaging over open ground.
Simply put, there is a huge window where any and all agression can hit. If a standard marine-marauder ball hits between 8 and 9 minutes there is no way your 2 zealots and MSC with photon overcharge is going to defend that. On maps like akilon wastes, the terran can simply bypass the nexus and go straight to your main. On other maps they will take some more losses doing that, but still. They can also simply wait the minute out and then come kill you.
Just in case I am doing something wrong, could you post some replays of you defending 8-9 minute pushes (like a minute before the carriers pop out).
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On June 09 2013 06:37 Vardaine wrote:
I do not think this is a viable build in basically any league from platinum up. Certainly not in masters. I have tried this about 7-8 times and lost every single one of the games before carriers were even out. In one game I got some carriers out which were crushed by pure marines (altough I violated the rule about engaging over open ground.
Simply put, there is a huge window where any and all agression can hit. If a standard marine-marauder ball hits between 8 and 9 minutes there is no way your 2 zealots and MSC with photon overcharge is going to defend that. On maps like akilon wastes, the terran can simply bypass the nexus and go straight to your main. On other maps they will take some more losses doing that, but still. They can also simply wait the minute out and then come kill you.
Just in case I am doing something wrong, could you post some replays of you defending 8-9 minute pushes (like a minute before the carriers pop out).
Your talking about some sort of 1 base 8 minute push? You do get a full scout of the terran and what hes doing at 6:30. Also if you break Rule number 1, you can lose the game instantly. You need dead space and good positioning. A two base push won't be out in till 9:30 and it gets slowed down by the oracle, because they must make an earlier engineering bay and two turrets. You first two carriers can be started at 8 minutes and I know at least one can be crono'd fully, it can pop at 9 minutes exactly.
If theres some sort of one base playing going on, yeah you need to change your play. add cannons etc etc. Even void rays can do well.
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Some were in fact 2 base pushes. Only they did not have medivacs with them. More like small pokes they did after they held off my oracle, but those pokes were enough to kill me as I didnt have anything.
Regarding one base pushes, if you scout it with your oracle you are likely too late. There is no warp gate and no forge yet, so you cannot build much except void rays and oracles, which realy are not going to help much vs a 1 base terran all-in.
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there is nothing a carrier does that a voidray wont do cheaper
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On June 09 2013 06:37 Vardaine wrote:
I do not think this is a viable build in basically any league from platinum up. Certainly not in masters. I have tried this about 7-8 times and lost every single one of the games before carriers were even out. In one game I got some carriers out which were crushed by pure marines (altough I violated the rule about engaging over open ground.
Simply put, there is a huge window where any and all agression can hit. If a standard marine-marauder ball hits between 8 and 9 minutes there is no way your 2 zealots and MSC with photon overcharge is going to defend that. On maps like akilon wastes, the terran can simply bypass the nexus and go straight to your main. On other maps they will take some more losses doing that, but still. They can also simply wait the minute out and then come kill you.
Just in case I am doing something wrong, could you post some replays of you defending 8-9 minute pushes (like a minute before the carriers pop out).
but he's in masters doing this consistently and winning so you're wrong.
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On June 09 2013 08:16 Vardaine wrote:
Some were in fact 2 base pushes. Only they did not have medivacs with them. More like small pokes they did after they held off my oracle, but those pokes were enough to kill me as I didnt have anything.
Regarding one base pushes, if you scout it with your oracle you are likely too late. There is no warp gate and no forge yet, so you cannot build much except void rays and oracles, which realy are not going to help much vs a 1 base terran all-in.
Well Medivacs pop out at 9 minutes, If your cronoboosts are done correctly, and this can be difficult while micoing your oracle. I mess it up all the time as well, you'll have both carriers out at 9:00-9:15. If this is a small marine push off two you can hold them off easily with your two zealots and MSC. Just position the zealots at your ramp use the nexus cannon, the marines will take a lot of damage trying to move up that ramp. The Oracle can also clean house if it still has energy. These kinds of push's also deplete their marine count which you can usually just go harass with your first two carriers when they do these kinds of smaller pushs.
I'm sure its possble to die to any push, but the fact you say it won't be viable past platinum is silly, since your clearly seeing masters players getting wrecked by it. Its fun build. I'm sure it has weakness's but every build does, I'm not saying we're gonna see carriers used in Code S. Its viable though.
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On June 09 2013 09:08 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 06:37 Vardaine wrote:
I do not think this is a viable build in basically any league from platinum up. Certainly not in masters. I have tried this about 7-8 times and lost every single one of the games before carriers were even out. In one game I got some carriers out which were crushed by pure marines (altough I violated the rule about engaging over open ground.
Simply put, there is a huge window where any and all agression can hit. If a standard marine-marauder ball hits between 8 and 9 minutes there is no way your 2 zealots and MSC with photon overcharge is going to defend that. On maps like akilon wastes, the terran can simply bypass the nexus and go straight to your main. On other maps they will take some more losses doing that, but still. They can also simply wait the minute out and then come kill you.
Just in case I am doing something wrong, could you post some replays of you defending 8-9 minute pushes (like a minute before the carriers pop out). but he's in masters doing this consistently and winning so you're wrong.
He plays Unranked matches. That means the People he plays,are either trying something or are not really trying/play offrace.
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On June 09 2013 09:16 quaZa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 09:08 dreamsmasher wrote:On June 09 2013 06:37 Vardaine wrote:
I do not think this is a viable build in basically any league from platinum up. Certainly not in masters. I have tried this about 7-8 times and lost every single one of the games before carriers were even out. In one game I got some carriers out which were crushed by pure marines (altough I violated the rule about engaging over open ground.
Simply put, there is a huge window where any and all agression can hit. If a standard marine-marauder ball hits between 8 and 9 minutes there is no way your 2 zealots and MSC with photon overcharge is going to defend that. On maps like akilon wastes, the terran can simply bypass the nexus and go straight to your main. On other maps they will take some more losses doing that, but still. They can also simply wait the minute out and then come kill you.
Just in case I am doing something wrong, could you post some replays of you defending 8-9 minute pushes (like a minute before the carriers pop out). but he's in masters doing this consistently and winning so you're wrong. He plays Unranked matches. That means the People he plays,are either trying something or are not really trying/play offrace.
Not all the match's are unranked. That's a bit of a oversight too saying they were not trying. Didn't I beat you in a PvT quaza with Tempest blink stalker? Are you still angry with me? Not trying to start a flame war xD just saying, we stopped talking ?
Its a build that works for me and I enjoyed it. My stream viewers convinced me to share it in a formal format. Not really much else to say about it.
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On June 09 2013 09:22 Cress wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 09:16 quaZa wrote:On June 09 2013 09:08 dreamsmasher wrote:On June 09 2013 06:37 Vardaine wrote:
I do not think this is a viable build in basically any league from platinum up. Certainly not in masters. I have tried this about 7-8 times and lost every single one of the games before carriers were even out. In one game I got some carriers out which were crushed by pure marines (altough I violated the rule about engaging over open ground.
Simply put, there is a huge window where any and all agression can hit. If a standard marine-marauder ball hits between 8 and 9 minutes there is no way your 2 zealots and MSC with photon overcharge is going to defend that. On maps like akilon wastes, the terran can simply bypass the nexus and go straight to your main. On other maps they will take some more losses doing that, but still. They can also simply wait the minute out and then come kill you.
Just in case I am doing something wrong, could you post some replays of you defending 8-9 minute pushes (like a minute before the carriers pop out). but he's in masters doing this consistently and winning so you're wrong. He plays Unranked matches. That means the People he plays,are either trying something or are not really trying/play offrace. Not all the match's are unranked. That's a bit of a oversight too saying they were not trying. Didn't I beat you in a PvT quaza with Tempest blink stalker? Are you still angry with me? Not trying to start a flame war xD just saying, we stopped talking ?
Did u ever beat my Zerg?...U where the One who yelled at me for "sabotating" ur stream post.when in fact u know how i am and i like to troll. i was never angry i jsut defended myself in this situation.
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Been using carriers in most of PvTs and PvZs as well to great results. Love this unit.
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What level of Masters? Because there is an enormous difference between low Masters and legit High Masters. I really doubt this would be viable in PvT at High Masters, unless you happened to get a lot of really profitable gateway or tech harassment, or if they ran a pressure/all-in build that did nothing.
In Low Masters you can win with just about anything, because people still make a lot of mistakes. People still make tons of mistakes in High Masters too, but that number is usually greatly reduced enough to put builds like this to bed.
And this is coming from somebody that has explored and ran every corner of strategy at High Masters over the span of late WoL through present day. I used to be the hipster that would use Carriers no matter the circumstance, but they just take too long to build, and die to too many things. So it's not like I am doubting this as a Protoss who only used Stalker Colossus the entire life of SC2. Believe me, if there was a viable Carrier PvT strategy at High Masters, I'd be the first one parading around about it.
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On June 09 2013 09:26 quaZa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 09:22 Cress wrote:On June 09 2013 09:16 quaZa wrote:On June 09 2013 09:08 dreamsmasher wrote:On June 09 2013 06:37 Vardaine wrote:
I do not think this is a viable build in basically any league from platinum up. Certainly not in masters. I have tried this about 7-8 times and lost every single one of the games before carriers were even out. In one game I got some carriers out which were crushed by pure marines (altough I violated the rule about engaging over open ground.
Simply put, there is a huge window where any and all agression can hit. If a standard marine-marauder ball hits between 8 and 9 minutes there is no way your 2 zealots and MSC with photon overcharge is going to defend that. On maps like akilon wastes, the terran can simply bypass the nexus and go straight to your main. On other maps they will take some more losses doing that, but still. They can also simply wait the minute out and then come kill you.
Just in case I am doing something wrong, could you post some replays of you defending 8-9 minute pushes (like a minute before the carriers pop out). but he's in masters doing this consistently and winning so you're wrong. He plays Unranked matches. That means the People he plays,are either trying something or are not really trying/play offrace. Not all the match's are unranked. That's a bit of a oversight too saying they were not trying. Didn't I beat you in a PvT quaza with Tempest blink stalker? Are you still angry with me? Not trying to start a flame war xD just saying, we stopped talking ? Did u ever beat my Zerg?...U where the One who yelled at me for "sabotating" ur stream post.when in fact u know how i am and i like to troll. i was never angry i jsut defended myself in this situation.
Yes quaza I have beaten your zerg. Remember when we were both diamond baddies and used to be friends ? Now We're masters and only slightly less bad xD. You troll but you can be mean sometimes... Anyway, Lets stay on topic.
But yeah, the build is what it is. If you break any of the Rules of engagement you can auto-lose the game, its very unforgiving. Its also a weird style one that takes time to get used too. This is a build for fun and entertainment.
I'm sure if you pull your scv's at the right time it'd be hard to win or its weak to some timing. Useally when I lose its because I flew some carriers into a group of marines or broke the shortest distance over open ground and got punished for not having area to micro the weak carriers back.
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On June 09 2013 09:32 SidewinderSC2 wrote:
What level of Masters? Because there is an enormous difference between low Masters and legit High Masters. I really doubt this would be viable in PvT at High Masters, unless you happened to get a lot of really profitable gateway or tech harassment, or if they ran a pressure/all-in build that did nothing.
In Low Masters you can win with just about anything, because people still make a lot of mistakes. People still make tons of mistakes in High Masters too, but that number is usually greatly reduced enough to put builds like this to bed.
And this is coming from somebody that has explored and ran every corner of strategy at High Masters over the span of late WoL through present day. I used to be the hipster that would use Carriers no matter the circumstance, but they just take too long to build, and die to too many things. So it's not like I am doubting this as a Protoss who only used Stalker Colossus the entire life of SC2. Believe me, if there was a viable Carrier PvT strategy at High Masters, I'd be the first one parading around about it.
On June 06 2013 14:07 Cress wrote:I can't say if its possible or not to make it viable at the highest level of play, but it shows promise and its by far the most fun I've ever had playing this game.
Yeah I dunno. Nobody has tried making carriers work any extensive amount. You need to try and try a lot to even determine if something is viable. Carriers definitely are not the easiest build to win with. It tolerates very little mistakes. I was so disappointed with the new changes to protoss in Hots that I switched to zerg. As all the new units come from the Stargate.
I still feel carriers just have not been tried or play around with enough. Taking advantage of their positioning and most effective way of creating them. Your a high masters player of Standard play I assume. I respect that, but how many games attempting to go carriers have you really tried?
I'm not saying my build is good. It could be the worst possible way of going carriers. That still does not mean carriers are not viable. Not everything has been tried not all possibility's have been exhausted. I've used colossus/HT's my entire protoss sc2 life span. If thats your thing after 3 years more power to you. I'm just hungry for more after the hots expansion.
This build has no "hard counter" as far as I can tell. It comes down to the harassment and positioning of the carriers. If the terran goes for one base play you gotta do some extreme adjusting which sucks, but two base terran takes awhile to get rolling by the time they get their first two medivacs and you even need to worry about drops you already have the two carriers out.
I'm not saying carriers are good or bad... But lets keep trying eh?
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On June 09 2013 09:26 Demicore wrote:
Been using carriers in most of PvTs and PvZs as well to great results. Love this unit.
Hmm, well if they are games against masters players who spend their money and are active on the map. Maybe you could share your experiences with them?
I think too many people are missing the point of carriers and thats the love you feel when you build one. When I build this spider lagged thing that fires lasers I feel no attachment to it. When I build a carrier all my memories of Brood war flash before my eyes O.o.
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On June 09 2013 08:38 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
there is nothing a carrier does that a voidray wont do cheaper
That's not true actually. Void rays can't fight bio without getting hit. Carriers have Range 8 to 14 and can be cost effective if your only trading the minerals inside the carriers.
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well this work in WOL if so what are the necessary changes as looks like i aint buying HOTS
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On June 09 2013 18:42 unknown soldier wrote:well this work in WOL if so what are the necessary changes as looks like i aint buying HOTS
Nah, The build replys pretty heavily on the mother ship core to cut a few corners and mass recall. I suppose it would still work decently, void rays won't own corruptors as hard though and no mother ship core so early bio pushs will be much harder to hold off.
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I still feel carriers just have not been tried or play around with enough. Taking advantage of their positioning and most effective way of creating them. Your a high masters player of Standard play I assume. I respect that, but how many games attempting to go carriers have you really tried?
I am very non-standard. I have tried Carrier builds in PvT a LOT, and it always comes down to the fact that they do the job of a Colossus, except the Colossus does it a lot better. Believe me, if I had my way, the Colossus would be removed from the game and more interesting units would take their place. I never use Colossus in any matchup except PvT, only because it is a necessity against a high Marine count from 3 bases and beyond. 2 bases you can easily Storm your way around the map.
I'm not saying carriers are good or bad... But lets keep trying eh?
Alright, I will try to get some Carrier games going again and see if the new meta somehow helps out. I do think that you need to open Storm and get Carriers on 3 bases though, as opposed to 2 or 1 base.
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I should mention that Carriers in PvT vs Mech is totally fine though.
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As others in the thread have mentioned, White-Ra has been beating EU GM zergs for a while with 2 base carrier builds and such. He even took some games of Hyun with carriers during the HOTS beta if I remember correctly. On maps like Akilon where you can take a very easy third going for carriers early works great especially if the zerg tries to counter with roach hydra or goes for a swarm host queen timing.
That being said, it certainly isn't the most solid build available (phoenix or void rays are almost always a safer and better option) but there are some scenarios where having 3-4 carriers early works out really well. They do quite decently vs mutas and hydras (especially with void ray support and air ups) and can stay far away from corruptors so he can't just run in and kill them without taking damage from cannons and void rays. In a situation where zerg is likely to switch between ultras, infestors, and mutas (see leenock vs naniwa on akilon) they are potentially better for their supply than tempests, phoenix, or void rays (unless you have a LOT of voids and HT).There is also the potential for 2-3 carrier and MSC harass at a zerg 3rd which is tricky if the zerg only has queens and spores.
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When a zerg scouts that your natural is not walled off, how do you defend a speedling bust? At, say, the 6-7 minute mark?
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On June 10 2013 10:14 RaptorPete wrote:
When a zerg scouts that your natural is not walled off, how do you defend a speedling bust? At, say, the 6-7 minute mark?
Every time I've seen white-ra do this build he goes FFE. Don't really think the quicker stargate is necessary since you are gearing up to play a pretty long macro game no matter what.
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On June 10 2013 05:36 SidewinderSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +I still feel carriers just have not been tried or play around with enough. Taking advantage of their positioning and most effective way of creating them. Your a high masters player of Standard play I assume. I respect that, but how many games attempting to go carriers have you really tried? I am very non-standard. I have tried Carrier builds in PvT a LOT, and it always comes down to the fact that they do the job of a Colossus, except the Colossus does it a lot better. Believe me, if I had my way, the Colossus would be removed from the game and more interesting units would take their place. I never use Colossus in any matchup except PvT, only because it is a necessity against a high Marine count from 3 bases and beyond. 2 bases you can easily Storm your way around the map. Alright, I will try to get some Carrier games going again and see if the new meta somehow helps out. I do think that you need to open Storm and get Carriers on 3 bases though, as opposed to 2 or 1 base.
I think game 4 of the WCS World finals between SoS and INnoVation was pretty interesting. Carriers are indeed a little like colossus but if you treat them like colossus they will die. I think making use of dead space is a pretty important part. SoS seemed to understand how to siege air units very well with gate way units. I wonder how the game would have gone if half of those tempests were carriers. I feel he lost at the end of the game because tempests just have far to low dps. Carriers don't have this problem.
You could be right fast storms into carriers with a 3rd could be interesting. Sounds like a lot to manage making sure your carriers are in a good position and working well with your gate way units though. I imagine it would take a bit of time getting used too. That game between SoS and innovation might be a good template just trade the tempests for carriers. You could even go half and half, being the boss I am though I say they should all be carriers <3
Let's be honest how many people would be freaking out if SoS was building carriers in the finals against innovation. He would be the most loved protoss of all time.
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On June 10 2013 10:14 RaptorPete wrote:
When a zerg scouts that your natural is not walled off, how do you defend a speedling bust? At, say, the 6-7 minute mark?
Its a good question to ask RaptorPete. I do talk about it a little in my OP. However let me go into further detail and the idea behind the building placements. The zealot in the Middle wall off opposed to the zealot on the side makes for a much more secure wall off if you move the zealot back into the wall just a bit. Makes lings have to come at the zealot one at a time and theres 0% chance the lings will run past the zealot.
When I was doing the old style wall off with the zealot on the side, Lings more often then not slid by the zealot sometimes and its important to keep the lings locked into your natural at least in till most of them are dead. The only downside is that stalkers cannot fit through the zealot in the middle wall off. Bit of a trade off.
There's the danger of the nexus being targeted when its overcharged. That's why you put pylons up against the nexus to reduce surface area. There's also the oracle which is out and about when these lings are coming at you and can clean up lings pretty nicely.
All in all this type of defense will save you 300 early game minerals over the FFE type. I'm the only person I know of that uses this type of defense where you rely on pylons to reduce damage on the nexus, the nexus cannon its self, and the zealot in the middle type wall. So I imagine it looks a little strange. You have to consider 300 minerals is a big chunk of money to throw down on a forge and cannon so early. You also need to get out a fast momma core to scare out those pesky first few lings that will come at you.
A 16 drone speedling all-in has a chance of a killing the nexus, but in my experience you can add on void rays and retake your expansion, they are very hard pressed to hold off the void rays even more so if you just build a lot off one base. Since they usually lose all the lings, they basicly have one base saturation and not many queens. That's usually how I respond to that sort of thing.
Most non-all in speedling attacks you will hold off with ease they won't get into your main but you should pull the probes into your main if he attempts to target them. You kinda have to eye ball it based on how many lings he made if you should mineral drill to another mineral patch or pull them into the main.
If theres any large amount of lings on the map you should attempt to be killing them with your oracle as lings die crazy fast to oracles. Sometimes they will just pull back the lings and attempt to wait for the nexus cannon to wear off, but you already have a second nexus cannon ready by the time it wears off to use another and you should have your nexus well sim city-ed at that point.
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I've also been doing some carrier builds in both matchups at low masters level on the korean server and it's really fun. My style is very similar to the OP's, but in PvTs I get 2 oracles to keep tagging the terran army so my carriers will never get caught out of position while I snipe bases. I also dump my chronos into shield and attack upgrades instead of into carrier production because an upgrade lead with carriers means that the fleet is at least 20% more effective(each attack upgrade increases carrier DPS by 20% of the original so you want to get as many attack ups as you can before the terran gets armor). Later on I also mix in 3-5 tempests for long range firepower, breaking turrets and killing vikings(a tempest beat two vikings one on one)
I was watching the sos vs inno game 4 and I felt like if he didnt have that many tempests, instead mixing in carriers he couldve had a chance. 4-5 tempests are great but more is kinda wasteful because tempests tend to overkill and 7 tempests can waste their shots on a single marine. carriers wouldve provided the necessary DPS to finish of inno's army after he weathered through the storms and tempests and vastly outupgraded zealots.
In PvZs I usually do forge fast expands and mix in around 6-8 phoenixes so I can be active on the map and pull the zerg out of position while my carriers snipe bases. 7 range phoenixes help soften corruptors, kill overlords and limit zerg vision so it's harder for the zerg to catch your carriers out of position. Again upgrades are key and I use gateway walls to guard my expansions as well as for zealot DT warp ins to harass and defend bases from ling run bys.
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oh and did I say it's auto win vs mech? mix in some tempests and start picking units off, then when you have the upgrade timings just a move and laugh. Sometimes terrans mix in mines which makes it even more fun as the mines will splash the terran army while killing the interceptors. While the interceptors can be rebuilt quickly and does not affect your army production, losing vikings to widow mines does and as long as you dont lose over 4 carriers you can press on, if you do, just recall out
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On June 10 2013 12:40 Cress wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 05:36 SidewinderSC2 wrote:I still feel carriers just have not been tried or play around with enough. Taking advantage of their positioning and most effective way of creating them. Your a high masters player of Standard play I assume. I respect that, but how many games attempting to go carriers have you really tried? I am very non-standard. I have tried Carrier builds in PvT a LOT, and it always comes down to the fact that they do the job of a Colossus, except the Colossus does it a lot better. Believe me, if I had my way, the Colossus would be removed from the game and more interesting units would take their place. I never use Colossus in any matchup except PvT, only because it is a necessity against a high Marine count from 3 bases and beyond. 2 bases you can easily Storm your way around the map. I'm not saying carriers are good or bad... But lets keep trying eh? Alright, I will try to get some Carrier games going again and see if the new meta somehow helps out. I do think that you need to open Storm and get Carriers on 3 bases though, as opposed to 2 or 1 base. I think game 4 of the WCS World finals between SoS and INnoVation was pretty interesting. Carriers are indeed a little like colossus but if you treat them like colossus they will die. I think making use of dead space is a pretty important part. SoS seemed to understand how to siege air units very well with gate way units. I wonder how the game would have gone if half of those tempests were carriers. I feel he lost at the end of the game because tempests just have far to low dps. Carriers don't have this problem. You could be right fast storms into carriers with a 3rd could be interesting. Sounds like a lot to manage making sure your carriers are in a good position and working well with your gate way units though. I imagine it would take a bit of time getting used too. That game between SoS and innovation might be a good template just trade the tempests for carriers. You could even go half and half, being the boss I am though I say they should all be carriers <3 Let's be honest how many people would be freaking out if SoS was building carriers in the finals against innovation. He would be the most loved protoss of all time.
I wanted to mention that game too in this thread . I remember thinking "Carriers would have done so much better against that bio" during that game. But it showed pretty well how you should abuse the terrain with these siege air units.
One thing i feel uncomfortable with is you completely skipping warp gate research though. I mean its so cheap that I don't really understand the reason behind not getting it. And later trading a couple cannons for gateways could be worthwhile. Personally I just feel like having the versatility to warp in units where they are needed is a good trade-off for some static defenses, and gives you a safe feeling. And you will need it late game anyway. Is 50 gas really gonna delay you so much? Also you dont have to recall your carriers for a few units attacking your main. Other than that I will definitely try this build.
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On June 10 2013 19:03 Kuzmorgo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 12:40 Cress wrote:On June 10 2013 05:36 SidewinderSC2 wrote:I still feel carriers just have not been tried or play around with enough. Taking advantage of their positioning and most effective way of creating them. Your a high masters player of Standard play I assume. I respect that, but how many games attempting to go carriers have you really tried? I am very non-standard. I have tried Carrier builds in PvT a LOT, and it always comes down to the fact that they do the job of a Colossus, except the Colossus does it a lot better. Believe me, if I had my way, the Colossus would be removed from the game and more interesting units would take their place. I never use Colossus in any matchup except PvT, only because it is a necessity against a high Marine count from 3 bases and beyond. 2 bases you can easily Storm your way around the map. I'm not saying carriers are good or bad... But lets keep trying eh? Alright, I will try to get some Carrier games going again and see if the new meta somehow helps out. I do think that you need to open Storm and get Carriers on 3 bases though, as opposed to 2 or 1 base. I think game 4 of the WCS World finals between SoS and INnoVation was pretty interesting. Carriers are indeed a little like colossus but if you treat them like colossus they will die. I think making use of dead space is a pretty important part. SoS seemed to understand how to siege air units very well with gate way units. I wonder how the game would have gone if half of those tempests were carriers. I feel he lost at the end of the game because tempests just have far to low dps. Carriers don't have this problem. You could be right fast storms into carriers with a 3rd could be interesting. Sounds like a lot to manage making sure your carriers are in a good position and working well with your gate way units though. I imagine it would take a bit of time getting used too. That game between SoS and innovation might be a good template just trade the tempests for carriers. You could even go half and half, being the boss I am though I say they should all be carriers <3 Let's be honest how many people would be freaking out if SoS was building carriers in the finals against innovation. He would be the most loved protoss of all time. I wanted to mention that game too in this thread . I remember thinking "Carriers would have done so much better against that bio" during that game. But it showed pretty well how you should abuse the terrain with these siege air units. One thing i feel uncomfortable with is you completely skipping warp gate research though. I mean its so cheap that I don't really understand the reason behind not getting it. And later trading a couple cannons for gateways could be worthwhile. Personally I just feel like having the versatility to warp in units where they are needed is a good trade-off for some static defenses, and gives you a safe feeling. And you will need it late game anyway. Is 50 gas really gonna delay you so much? Also you dont have to recall your carriers for a few units attacking your main. Other than that I will definitely try this build .
For a while in WoL Gretorp was doing protoss builds without warpgate and was winning consistently. Especially with the mothership core the need for warping in is lessened, and the ability to play protoss like any of the other races is hightened. I do kind of agree with you that after you're done getting air upgrades there is no reason to not have it, but since the build completely ignores gateway units there is really no reason to get it.
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Cress I love the builds, just wanted to say thanks!
I want to share an issue I ran across in a game I played tonight. Basically the Zerg who chose to use hydras wasn't trying to target fire my carriers, but instead just let them shoot down interceptors(I explain why this is a concern of mine below). I wasn't able to hit the critical mass as this was just as I was getting my 3rd up. It was 5 carriers vs about 20-25ish hydras. The issue was that he let his hydras just fire at my interceptors and what ended up happening was I was losing interceptors faster than my carriers could produce them. Then he basically just steamrolled me and my empty carriers. Have you come across this before? How do/would u deal with this? Thanks!
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On June 10 2013 23:24 Chaser808 wrote:
Cress I love the builds, just wanted to say thanks!
I want to share an issue I ran across in a game I played tonight. Basically the Zerg who chose to use hydras wasn't trying to target fire my carriers, but instead just let them shoot down interceptors(I explain why this is a concern of mine below). I wasn't able to hit the critical mass as this was just as I was getting my 3rd up. It was 5 carriers vs about 20-25ish hydras. The issue was that he let his hydras just fire at my interceptors and what ended up happening was I was losing interceptors faster than my carriers could produce them. Then he basically just steamrolled me and my empty carriers. Have you come across this before? How do/would u deal with this? Thanks!
http://drop.sc/341335
here's a replay where I played someone who went for hydra aggression as you described, and held it off. I think as long as you have some support for the carriers (guardian shield, a few void rays, cannons) then as long as you are microing your carriers back and forth it shouldn't be too hard to hold these hydra attacks.
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On June 10 2013 23:24 Chaser808 wrote:
Cress I love the builds, just wanted to say thanks!
I want to share an issue I ran across in a game I played tonight. Basically the Zerg who chose to use hydras wasn't trying to target fire my carriers, but instead just let them shoot down interceptors(I explain why this is a concern of mine below). I wasn't able to hit the critical mass as this was just as I was getting my 3rd up. It was 5 carriers vs about 20-25ish hydras. The issue was that he let his hydras just fire at my interceptors and what ended up happening was I was losing interceptors faster than my carriers could produce them. Then he basically just steamrolled me and my empty carriers. Have you come across this before? How do/would u deal with this? Thanks!
I've come across mass hydralisk builds before where they mass expand and just go straight up hydra and maybe add vipers later. Useally when I have about 3-4 carriers I immediately recognize it as a timing to kill one of the zergs bases. Then move around the sides of the map carefully making use of mass recall. If your harassment with 3-4 carriers loses their interceptors then just wait for them to rebuild over dead space. I usually never go looking for my opponents army its either defend my own bases or attack one of his bases
Depleted interceptors is really only something that happens to me against Terran sometimes really. Honestly once your down to 3-4 interceptors you really should pull your carriers back. Usually when I do lose its about more about how I lost my patience I flew my carriers directly into marines or hydras makes me /face palm when it happens.
I'm usually just focused on killing bases making sure the zerg can't Remax if they are going hydra's, The zerg needs a bank to fight carriers over the long term. We wanna make sure they don't have a bank.
It'd help if you had a replay or something, to take a look at
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On June 10 2013 19:03 Kuzmorgo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 12:40 Cress wrote:On June 10 2013 05:36 SidewinderSC2 wrote:I still feel carriers just have not been tried or play around with enough. Taking advantage of their positioning and most effective way of creating them. Your a high masters player of Standard play I assume. I respect that, but how many games attempting to go carriers have you really tried? I am very non-standard. I have tried Carrier builds in PvT a LOT, and it always comes down to the fact that they do the job of a Colossus, except the Colossus does it a lot better. Believe me, if I had my way, the Colossus would be removed from the game and more interesting units would take their place. I never use Colossus in any matchup except PvT, only because it is a necessity against a high Marine count from 3 bases and beyond. 2 bases you can easily Storm your way around the map. I'm not saying carriers are good or bad... But lets keep trying eh? Alright, I will try to get some Carrier games going again and see if the new meta somehow helps out. I do think that you need to open Storm and get Carriers on 3 bases though, as opposed to 2 or 1 base. I think game 4 of the WCS World finals between SoS and INnoVation was pretty interesting. Carriers are indeed a little like colossus but if you treat them like colossus they will die. I think making use of dead space is a pretty important part. SoS seemed to understand how to siege air units very well with gate way units. I wonder how the game would have gone if half of those tempests were carriers. I feel he lost at the end of the game because tempests just have far to low dps. Carriers don't have this problem. You could be right fast storms into carriers with a 3rd could be interesting. Sounds like a lot to manage making sure your carriers are in a good position and working well with your gate way units though. I imagine it would take a bit of time getting used too. That game between SoS and innovation might be a good template just trade the tempests for carriers. You could even go half and half, being the boss I am though I say they should all be carriers <3 Let's be honest how many people would be freaking out if SoS was building carriers in the finals against innovation. He would be the most loved protoss of all time. I wanted to mention that game too in this thread . I remember thinking "Carriers would have done so much better against that bio" during that game. But it showed pretty well how you should abuse the terrain with these siege air units. One thing i feel uncomfortable with is you completely skipping warp gate research though. I mean its so cheap that I don't really understand the reason behind not getting it. And later trading a couple cannons for gateways could be worthwhile. Personally I just feel like having the versatility to warp in units where they are needed is a good trade-off for some static defenses, and gives you a safe feeling. And you will need it late game anyway. Is 50 gas really gonna delay you so much? Also you dont have to recall your carriers for a few units attacking your main. Other than that I will definitely try this build .
I go boss mode carriers. To tell you the truth when I'm trying out something new. I usually just restrict myself to that one unit, then add other units later on. For example when the void ray change happened in Hots I was just massing void rays. Then I added storm after I felt comfortable about how many void rays were needed. After doing mass carriers a bit I think storm should probably be considered once you get around 3-4 carriers. Maybe instead of adding on more star gates just stick to 2 for awhile.
The reason I don't usually get warp gate is because of the delay to attack upgrading, carriers get a lot of help from the + attack upgrades. In fact they have some of the strongest attack upgrades in the game. By the time 50 gas does not matter the upgrades have started.
I think SoS handled his tempests and gate way units together very well. I think thats probably how you should use gate way units and carriers together like that. He had an advantage that game that he only reason lost because tempests deal too little dps. I wanted so very bad to see how carriers would have worked in this game. Maybe if even just half of those tempests were carriers. Oh well though
I figured out how carriers should be used over dead space by massing carriers alone and see how that works alone. Now it might be time to add some gate way units and storm. See how that works out. I think the trick is getting the carriers and storms out before your opponent has a good economy compared to yours.
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On June 10 2013 13:52 uh-oh wrote:
I've also been doing some carrier builds in both matchups at low masters level on the korean server and it's really fun. My style is very similar to the OP's, but in PvTs I get 2 oracles to keep tagging the terran army so my carriers will never get caught out of position while I snipe bases. I also dump my chronos into shield and attack upgrades instead of into carrier production because an upgrade lead with carriers means that the fleet is at least 20% more effective(each attack upgrade increases carrier DPS by 20% of the original so you want to get as many attack ups as you can before the terran gets armor). Later on I also mix in 3-5 tempests for long range firepower, breaking turrets and killing vikings(a tempest beat two vikings one on one)
I was watching the sos vs inno game 4 and I felt like if he didnt have that many tempests, instead mixing in carriers he couldve had a chance. 4-5 tempests are great but more is kinda wasteful because tempests tend to overkill and 7 tempests can waste their shots on a single marine. carriers wouldve provided the necessary DPS to finish of inno's army after he weathered through the storms and tempests and vastly outupgraded zealots.
In PvZs I usually do forge fast expands and mix in around 6-8 phoenixes so I can be active on the map and pull the zerg out of position while my carriers snipe bases. 7 range phoenixes help soften corruptors, kill overlords and limit zerg vision so it's harder for the zerg to catch your carriers out of position. Again upgrades are key and I use gateway walls to guard my expansions as well as for zealot DT warp ins to harass and defend bases from ling run bys.
I feel that Carrier attack upgrades are useful, I usually delay the shield upgrades though as I don't feel its worth the 150-150 that early in the game. It sounds like you have your own style though so stick to it. You should post some replays of your games =D. Using the oracles to constantly tag the Terran army sounds like a good idea. As it can be easy to lose track of where it is, especially when your taking a risk moving over open field.
I to feel SoS should've made a few carriers to finish off innovations army. Seems like he had a lot of money invested in tempests but their dps was just so low when it came die to kill marines. Tempests just don't seem to trade well with marines. If you can have good position on carriers though you'd just be trading minerals for marines.
Sos Clearly has his own tempest style there, and if he had been making earlier carriers instead of tempests his economy might have been messed up. I would suggest that if only half of the money he'd put into tempests was carriers >.> we would have seen something amazing. One of the best terran players in the world would have died to tempest/carrier/gateway units.
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On June 10 2013 20:02 Foblos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 19:03 Kuzmorgo wrote:On June 10 2013 12:40 Cress wrote:On June 10 2013 05:36 SidewinderSC2 wrote:I still feel carriers just have not been tried or play around with enough. Taking advantage of their positioning and most effective way of creating them. Your a high masters player of Standard play I assume. I respect that, but how many games attempting to go carriers have you really tried? I am very non-standard. I have tried Carrier builds in PvT a LOT, and it always comes down to the fact that they do the job of a Colossus, except the Colossus does it a lot better. Believe me, if I had my way, the Colossus would be removed from the game and more interesting units would take their place. I never use Colossus in any matchup except PvT, only because it is a necessity against a high Marine count from 3 bases and beyond. 2 bases you can easily Storm your way around the map. I'm not saying carriers are good or bad... But lets keep trying eh? Alright, I will try to get some Carrier games going again and see if the new meta somehow helps out. I do think that you need to open Storm and get Carriers on 3 bases though, as opposed to 2 or 1 base. I think game 4 of the WCS World finals between SoS and INnoVation was pretty interesting. Carriers are indeed a little like colossus but if you treat them like colossus they will die. I think making use of dead space is a pretty important part. SoS seemed to understand how to siege air units very well with gate way units. I wonder how the game would have gone if half of those tempests were carriers. I feel he lost at the end of the game because tempests just have far to low dps. Carriers don't have this problem. You could be right fast storms into carriers with a 3rd could be interesting. Sounds like a lot to manage making sure your carriers are in a good position and working well with your gate way units though. I imagine it would take a bit of time getting used too. That game between SoS and innovation might be a good template just trade the tempests for carriers. You could even go half and half, being the boss I am though I say they should all be carriers <3 Let's be honest how many people would be freaking out if SoS was building carriers in the finals against innovation. He would be the most loved protoss of all time. I wanted to mention that game too in this thread . I remember thinking "Carriers would have done so much better against that bio" during that game. But it showed pretty well how you should abuse the terrain with these siege air units. One thing i feel uncomfortable with is you completely skipping warp gate research though. I mean its so cheap that I don't really understand the reason behind not getting it. And later trading a couple cannons for gateways could be worthwhile. Personally I just feel like having the versatility to warp in units where they are needed is a good trade-off for some static defenses, and gives you a safe feeling. And you will need it late game anyway. Is 50 gas really gonna delay you so much? Also you dont have to recall your carriers for a few units attacking your main. Other than that I will definitely try this build . For a while in WoL Gretorp was doing protoss builds without warpgate and was winning consistently. Especially with the mothership core the need for warping in is lessened, and the ability to play protoss like any of the other races is hightened. I do kind of agree with you that after you're done getting air upgrades there is no reason to not have it, but since the build completely ignores gateway units there is really no reason to get it.
I think it would be great, to play around with Gate way unit / Carriers but make use of good positioning on the carriers. Game 4 of the WCS between SoS and Innovation sorta inspired me to this idea.
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On June 11 2013 01:08 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 23:24 Chaser808 wrote:
Cress I love the builds, just wanted to say thanks!
I want to share an issue I ran across in a game I played tonight. Basically the Zerg who chose to use hydras wasn't trying to target fire my carriers, but instead just let them shoot down interceptors(I explain why this is a concern of mine below). I wasn't able to hit the critical mass as this was just as I was getting my 3rd up. It was 5 carriers vs about 20-25ish hydras. The issue was that he let his hydras just fire at my interceptors and what ended up happening was I was losing interceptors faster than my carriers could produce them. Then he basically just steamrolled me and my empty carriers. Have you come across this before? How do/would u deal with this? Thanks! http://drop.sc/341335here's a replay where I played someone who went for hydra aggression as you described, and held it off. I think as long as you have some support for the carriers (guardian shield, a few void rays, cannons) then as long as you are microing your carriers back and forth it shouldn't be too hard to hold these hydra attacks.
Back in WOL I used to play around with carriers also and could beat masters players with it. However it did rely on maps favoring a quick 3rd and being able to get so many sentries. I had a harder time making sentry carrier work in Hots however because of the new maps having a more open 3rd and the speed upgrade on hydra's. I did find that if you have guardian shield on carriers they trade effectively with corruptors.
My point being that theres a lot of different styles of making carriers work
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Thank you for the advice cress! It seems I need to be more active with sniping and recall earlier, along with watching my interceptor numbers. Appreciate your time!
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On June 10 2013 11:21 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 10:14 RaptorPete wrote:
When a zerg scouts that your natural is not walled off, how do you defend a speedling bust? At, say, the 6-7 minute mark? Every time I've seen white-ra do this build he goes FFE. Don't really think the quicker stargate is necessary since you are gearing up to play a pretty long macro game no matter what.
Well you can save 300 early minerals by doing my version, even if it is slightly more risky. It threatens a gate way push just by doing it. The quicker star gate is needed to put on a bit of pressure and get accurate scouting of what the zergs doing. White ra does a gateway support type style, he treats the carriers as if they are colossus. I dunno, comes down to preference I suppose. Each does have its advantages though.
I think at the highest level you need to be doing the gateway/stargate style is more solid. The mass carrier style more risky but more fun so, Its just for entertainment at a mid masters level don't take it too seriously. It does show how carriers should be handled over dead space and such. I think if you go for the gate way style you should be using the same tactics as mass carriers.
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On June 09 2013 10:10 Cress wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 09:26 Demicore wrote:
Been using carriers in most of PvTs and PvZs as well to great results. Love this unit. Hmm, well if they are games against masters players who spend their money and are active on the map. Maybe you could share your experiences with them? I think too many people are missing the point of carriers and thats the love you feel when you build one. When I build this spider lagged thing that fires lasers I feel no attachment to it. When I build a carrier all my memories of Brood war flash before my eyes O.o.
Oh no I'm a shit diamond, I wouldn't dare inflict my replays upon you.
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Wow, sweet stream, followed and is gonna keep watching.
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EPT
