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I thought I was trolling Terran, then after a few hundred dead terrans and zergs later I discovered I might have a decent fun and viable build for reaching mass carriers against terran and zerg. I can't say if its possible or not to make it viable at the highest level of play, but it shows promise and its by far the most fun I've ever had playing this game.
I figured I would share some of the experience I've had going carriers in PvT/PvZ and put it in this discussion thread. I don't feel I have enough data or resources to make a guide for this build. Maybe in the future, for now its just a discussion on how to troll like a boss.
This is a very strange style of play. Its a build almost no masters protoss players could relate too and takes a bit of time to get a feel for as theres no warp gate.
I'm not very good at writing guides or explaining builds so be gentle >,<
Hopefully after seeing this guide you'll have a basic understand of how to increase your chances of making carriers work at a masters level against terran and zerg. No build is perfect and some timings you will be weak too
PvT Build Order and Timings
+ Show Spoiler +
First I'll give a rough build order and some timings.
9/Pylon *You can 9 scout or 13 scout, The 9 scout will slow down the nexus slightly but you can harrass the scv building the rax if its a 2 player map*
13/gate * If you choose to 13 scout the only thing you need to check for really is making sure the terran is not proxy 11/11, as you will auto die if he does, If the Terran is proxying, abandon this build*
15/gas
3/Cronoboosts on the nexus don't build a second pylon and get supply blocked at 18/18
18/@400 Minerals nexus *If you 9 scout you can time the probe to come back in time to plant down the nexus and send him back to mining, doing this can be sometimes prefered because the terrans scv can sometimes be scouting your main and if he sees a probe go down to the natural he may attempt to slow down the nexus being planted*
The nexus should go down at 3:00-3:10 min in game time depending on your scout timing. Most terrans won't have an eng-bay block worked into their build in till 4 minutes which is the normal 1 gate expand timing.
18/@150 Cybercore
18/@100 Pylon
18/@75 Second gas
After you get out of your 18/18 supply block your gonna wanna have a zealot and probe queued up, cronoboost out the zealot/nexus and we'll need it to delay the reaper.
@M100 zealot
@M50 Probe *after you make your 19th probe get ready for the cybercore to finish and start a mommacore, *Keep in mind the finished nexus on the low ground will free up your supply block*
@M100-G100 Mothership core * keep making probes after your core finishs, you can start cronoing probes if you wish*
Second gateway unit: Here you have some choices and preferences, *You can either make another zealot when the first one finishs or make a stalker for more early scouting, You may just skip the second zealot all togather if you wish. I useally only do that if my opponent opened reaper, the logic behind that is if my opponent opened reaper I lost 1-2 probes, which is fine since he delayed his expansion to make the reaper.
@M150-G150/ Star gate, *reaper openings will scout this of course, but this is fine he won't ever be aware of what we're doing*
@M100/Pylon * This pylon will bring you up to 44 supply, Keep cronoing probes, but you may wish to save one or two cronos for the oracle
@M150-G150/Oracle *your star gate should be wraping up, Keep in mind that after the oracle finishs don't make anything else out of the Stargate for now, You just need the one oracle for scouting and harassment.
@M100/Pylon *Get this pylon as soon as possible* * After you throw down this pylon go ahead and take both gas's at the natural*
@M75/Gas @Natural
@M75/Gas @Natural
* right around 7 minutes a widow mine drop can happen, you'll get your oracle out at 6:20-6:30 but its something to take note of, Good terrans will drop in your natural and your main, I like to use the nexus cannon to kill main/natural and use the gateway units i have to kill the other, if you made 2 zealots, throw a probe into the mine and finish it off with the zealots, By the way it goes without saying if you lose the oracle to a widow mine hit, your screwed xD, so be-careful.
@M300-G200 Fleet beacon
@M150-G150 Second star gate * Keep in mind you will be harrassing with your oracle while placing these structures down and we want to waste as little time as possble getting them placed.
@M100/Pylon
@M100/Pylon
Keep in mind that alot of one base pushs can hit right around this time, If you made a stalker instead of a second zealot you will have more warning about them coming, but you'll probably want to skip the fleet beacon in favor of a second star gate and pump out voids and make gate way units from your one gate to defend. Theres alot of different one base attacks that can come at you, Your oracle will tell you exactly what push is coming, If its a 1/1/1 or something your carriers will be out in time so don't worry too much about that timing.
I'm talking more about bio pushes that are rough to hold off but still holdable, I'm lazy and go with the second zealot so I useally only have a bit of warning that the oracle gives me.
Okay moving on, Lets make some CARRIERS!!! I won't be labeling pylons from this point on, I gave out all the important timings for ones.
@8:00-8:05 In game time, if your timings are super crisp you can get both carriers started around then, Its easy to mess up when microing your oracle though. If it does get messed up and you start your carriers late, its useally not the end of the world since your oracle will have delayed their double medivac push.
Getting the carriers out at the correct timing can sometimes mean the difference between dieing to that 9-10 minute push or not.
@M350-@G250 Carrier!!!!!!
@M350-@G250 Carrier!!!!!!
@M100/G100/+1 Air attack upgrade
@M150-@150 / Carrier Attack speed upgrade
@M150/Forge, We'll need lots of cannons
Add pylons at this point as you see fit, I useally start to cut probes at 16 on each mineral line and 3/3 on each gas, and won't start making more probes in till I'm taking or about to take my third.
Assuming the terran expanded and is playing out a standard game, you'll get your carriers out at roughly 9:20-9:30 Ingame time All just depends on when you started the carriers, This can be easy to mess up if you don't throw down the fleet beacon and star gate instant, even I mess it up alot while microing an oracle.
Obviously start two more carriers after your first two finish, We should have +1 attack and the attack speed upgrade, this will be more then enough to crush the terrans double medivac push, If you scout with your oracle that the terran does not have a 3rd CC and is still on two CC I useally throw down 2 cannons in front of the natural.
When the terran shows up at 9-10 minutes a number of things will happen, if he commits to the push and loses his army its an easy win for you, Assuming he does not snipe a nexus or something.
You'll need to be very aware of positioning of your Carriers Always fight over dead space or unpassble terrain whenever possible, your taking a risk anytime the carriers move into open field.
Sometime the terran won't commit to the push and maybe fall back or try to drop, you should know that if medivacs get within 10 range of charcters they are dead almost instantly.
After you force the Bio army back, your gonna want to get a 3rd up sometimes you can get the 3rd up earlier at 10 minutes when they go for the push and sometimes I think its worth it to take the 3rd its only 100 minutes lost if they go for it and force a cancel and it buys you a bit of extra time for the 3rd and 4th carrier
When you get your 4 carriers and are taking that 3rd, its harassment time, this is the main key to why this build can be successful,
If you let the terran max on vikings and get a good economy he will kill you, eZ and then laugh at you for going carriers,
Be very liberal about making cannons as your minerals will be very high, bring the mothership core along with your 3-4 carriers and attempt to either siege the terrans production or kill his 3rd, The 3rd is always a better choice but sometimes they won't take a 3rd.
The natural is fine too, but be annoying as hell with the carriers, you can always recall with the momma core to deal with doom drops, A single carrier will deal with a single drop quite well and sometimes you luck out and a carrier is poping as a drop is happening
Sniping bases and killing production with the carriers is the name of the game, as well as adding more star gates for more carriers and more bases of your own.
Think carefully how you move your army if you make a mistake and take a bad fight in open ground things will be bad for you xD.
Micro weak carriers back and trade interceptors for vikings and marines and medivacs, carriers have a decent range and do high damage.
With experence you'll learn how to micro and make the harassment work for you.
This build will not allow very many mistakes, but its the price of fun I suppose.
PvZ Build order and Timings
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This build is also viable against zerg too, Although I feel zerg has an easier time beating it after it gets rolling then terran does
Again the build order is mostly the same as against terran but theres some changes in positioning for example.
9/Pylon *9 Scout is must so that we don't die to 10 pool or below.
13/gate *Your gonna want to do a Zealot in the middle wall off, I was a bit too noob to get pictures to work so you'll have to check my vods to see the exact wall off if your not sure
15/gas * If you don't scout a pool before 2 min ingame time go ahead with the build, if there is a early pool, place a forge instead of a gateway if you can and abandon the carrier build.
3/Cronoboosts on the nexus don't build a second pylon and get supply blocked at 18/18
18/@400 Minerals nexus
18/@150 Cybercore
18/@100 Pylon
18/@75 Second gas
@M100 zealot * Crono out the zealot to complete the zealot in the middle wall off, Stalkers won't be able to fit through this wall off, but thats fine, we won't be making very many and its a more secure wall off.
@M50 Probe *after you make your 19th probe get ready for the cybercore to finish and start a mommacore, *Keep in mind the finished nexus on the low ground will free up your supply block*
@M100-G100 Mothership core * keep making probes after your core finishs, you can start cronoing probes if you wish* *Use the mothership core to scare off any lings that may be around your nexus.
Second gateway unit: Should nearly always be a zealot, but you could make a stalker for scouting more if you wish, but keep in mind the stalker can't fit through the wall off, if you make one, make sure it pops out on the right side.
@M150-G150/ Star gate,
@M100/Pylon * This pylon will bring you up to 44 supply, Keep cronoing probes, but you may wish to save one or two cronos for the oracle, Keep in mind that these next pylons that your making you wanna make along your nexus, this is to absorb seedling damage and make it more difficult to snipe your nexus
@M150-G150/Oracle *your star gate should be wrapping up, Keep in mind that after the oracle finishes don't make anything else out of the Stargate for now, You just need the one oracle for scouting and harassment.
*If they are going 16 drones speedling alling you, you won't be able to hold the nexus you will kill most of the lings with the oracle/nexus cannon,
*The best respond I found to this is to start pumping out voids. Most speedling attacks can be fended off with just the nexus cannon and oracle outside of all-ins
@M100/Pylon *Get this pylon as soon as possible* * After you throw down this pylon go ahead and take both gas's at the natural*
@M75/Gas @Natural
@M75/Gas @Natural
@M300-G200 Fleet beacon
@M150-G150 Second star gate * Keep in mind you will be harrassing with your oracle while placing these structures down and we want to waste as little time as possble getting them placed
@M100/Pylon
@M100/Pylon
You should try to be as active in getting scouting information about the zerg as possble with the oracle, Void rays will be needed if corruptors are made. More often then not, hydra viper will be the zergs response or just mass hydra.
Okay moving on, Lets make some CARRIERS!!! I won't be labeling pylons from this point on, I gave out all the important timings for ones
@8:00-8:05 In game time, if your timings are super crisp you can get both carriers started around then,
@M350-@G250 Carrier!!!!!!
@M350-@G250 Carrier!!!!!!
@M100/G100/+1 Air attack upgrade
@M150-@150 / Carrier Attack speed upgrade
@M150/Forge, We'll need lots of cannons
Same as with terran once you get 3-4 carriers you should be getting a 3rd up and harrassing with your carriers, bring the mothership core along in case you need to recall
From here on, what you do what depend on if the zerg is making hydras or corruptors, hydras are the cheaper response and you need to focus on sniping their bases while preventing your own bases from being sniped
Cannons are your best friend, make lots of them.
Really the only difference between PvZ and PvT are the positioning of buildings and against zerg you may need to build void rays, but the same overall concept of the opening build is the same.
Adding storm at some point could help the build out near the late game. I have not figured out any good timings for this yet though. The diffaculty with storm is it conflicts with the number one rule of going carriers.
Which is always stay over dead space whenever possble so hydras and marines can't get a good grip on you, but its still possble to have high templars in good positions for storms I would think.
Vods for PvT-PvZ Carriers
+ Show Spoiler +
Who knows maybe this build is not very good, Its certainly the most fun I've ever had playing the game though. I was asked by my stream viewers to try to produce a short guide on carriers.
If the carrier build gets past the experimental phase I will produce a more soild guide for everyone. Lets be realistic this build is very far removed from any meta currently known or tried, Many many games will be required to "figure" things out.
I will keep evolving this build on my stream and working towards improving it. If the community has a lot of interest I'll put out a more polished guided.
F.A.Q
+ Show Spoiler +Q:Do you think this build would work against protoss? A: No not even close, the problem with protoss is you need at least six carriers before they start getting good, which you will never reach quickly, as opposed to the other matchups where two carriers will do quite well, Protoss can always blink at your carriers too. Won't work against most masters players. You'd need a different build, for it to work Q: Will this build work more then once? A: Yes it does, theres a slight surprise factor involved, but you won't have any problems killing zergs and terrans in macro games more then one time. In the future I'd like to come up with different versions of the build. Q: Have you tried going gateway units/carriers? A: Yes I have, but the mass carrier version is more fun. http://www.twitch.tv/sc2cress/c/2140754 an example of a Gateway/Carrier attack, Feels a bit weak against really good zergs though.
Rules Of Engagement (This is how you will make carriers work for you, Read them.
+ Show Spoiler +Refining and making sure your doing the right build is the first step. This is the second and just as important. I'm going to explain some rules that I found out through experience if you break. You can get punished hard for. I'll add more in the future. Rule Number 1: Always fight over Unpassible terrain. What does this mean? It means that when hydra's and marines run at your carriers you have an area behind the carriers where you can micro back the weak carriers and they will be out of range by ground units. Your movement around the map needs to be done quickly but also well thought out and planned. You may need to trim around the sides of the map to get to your intended target. Rule Number 2: Have good positioning when defending. This is very map dependent and more so applies to when you just got out your first 2 carriers and you need to defend an early bio or hydra push. You wanna put your carriers in the best possible position for example between your natural and 3rd or on the ledge to your main. Sometimes one will be better then the other depending on the map. Keep in mind the more you move your carriers the more dps they lose which is key when picking a good position. Rule Number 3: Always have a mothership core with your carriers. It took me awhile to figure this one out but it really is quite useful. For one the nexus cannon is not really that useful with this build after you get 4 carriers, you will have cannons anyway. Time warp is your last saving grace and sometimes you can get nice catches of bio or hydras if you time it right. Mass recall is a nice ability for when your carriers get trapped or after you just sniped a base. Be careful however about recalling into an enemy army killing one of your nexus's. Your carriers can't move attack or defend them selfs and sometimes just losing the nexus is better then losing the carriers. Let me give an example. + Show Spoiler +( I was playing a Terran I was killing his natural with 4 carriers his main army was running at my 3rd. I recalled into his army and lost 4 carriers for free. He attacked into my natural quickly after, I had 2 already out and 2 more just pop'd the 4 carriers killed his army easy with good position. I would have been better off to sac the 3rd and have 8 carriers would have been game ending for the terran.) Rule Number 4: Never Rally your carriers across the map. Rallying carriers can easily get picked off by them selfs by marines or hydra's. This rule can be bent some. In general though I would recommend letting your new carriers pop out to defend your bases from drops and lings. When you send your 4 carriers to go harass. Send your 5th and 6th carriers to go defend the main and 3rd for example. After you recall from harassing the Terran then let the new carriers join up with the fleet. Carriers are really good at stopping drops too if they can be present when it happens. Rule Number 5: 4 Carriers to rule them all. Your first 3-4 carriers is a really good number to harass with and snipe a base and damage the zerg or terran. You almost always wanna attempt this timing to weaken your opponent and slow them down. Stay over dead space and have a mothership core with your carriers, in less you make a mistake they can't kill these carriers.
Thanks for reading.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +I got a new account this week just for Carriers in PvT-PvZ, To work my way up and learn the niches of the build so to speak. Some of these games will be Diamond vs masters because I'm locked, but they are still masters games. http://drop.sc/340781 : PvZ This zerg had played me a few times already and did a meta game 3 hatch before pool mass expand build http://drop.sc/340775 : PvZ Zerg let me win eZ *Rolls eyes* http://drop.sc/340777 : PvZ Zerg went Zergling corrupter its interesting because it can be difficult to take a third on this map against that style http://drop.sc/340778 : PvT Even with Poor positioning and microing you can still sometimes pull a win xD http://drop.sc/340779 : PvT Not the Ideal game, Should've gone after expansions instead of production http://drop.sc/340782 : PvT Weird Banshee mech play, threw me for a loop a bit I'll upload a bunch more in the future.
TL-DR: Carriers!!! <(^,^)> (>^,^)> Carrier Dance <(^,^<) <(^,^)>
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TL-DR: Nice shot trying to make Carriers useful.
Though right now Carriers are the most costly unit in the game, since you need to buy Interceptors for them to attack. So they are not the most cost effective unit.
Unlike Zerg(SH, BL) they don't spawn free units. *sob*
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I have been trying to experiment with carriers too.
I have noticed that in PvZ, carriers are in fact a totally viable route since the big void ray buff. Before, 2/2 carriers were thrashed by 0/0 corruptors, and there was nothing you could do to prevent the sniping of your carriers. You still need to be ahead in upgrades, but nothing impossible
However, in PvT, it is very very hard. Basically, the unit that counters the protoss air is pretty simple : it's called the marine. Well, agreed, you also need some medivacs. But you get the idea. You tell us to use the terrain at your advantage, but it is not always easy to do so.
Anyways, good post overall. Carriers forever!
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I watched some of your PvT's, terrans scouting carriers even after you have 4-5 still gives you so much trouble by reactively going mass marines.
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Huh? I've watched both PvZ games.
- In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base
- In game 1, all the zerg had was like 10 queens and 5 hydralisks, at the 15 minute mark, along with maybe 3-4 swarm hosts?
- In game 2, all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark?
Zergs can be maxed on hydralisks by then, or have so many mutalisks out that your low-carrier-count army stands no chance. What league is this? ^^
The zergs couldve gone pure hydra, or roach hydra, pure muta, roach/hydra/muta/corruptor or even a stephano max at 11 minutes and you would have died on the spot. the zerg had 3 bases but no units. It's kind of confusing?
Also like 4 fungals and your entire interceptor fleet is shut down.
In game 3, the zerg made horrible decisions with his hydra positioning and unit choice.
Also carriers are really really slow, and going for example, mass mutalisks ( with a few corruptors to keep those ph oenix away) will shut you down hard. By the time you reached one of their bases, 5 of yours will have been shut down already. not to forget that mutalisks can head on engage your carrier fleet, since you don't put early (enough) pressure on the zerg and mutalisks can focus fire the small amount of carriers you put out.
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On June 06 2013 16:41 kaluro wrote:
Huh? I've watched both PvZ games.
- In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base
- In game 1, all the zerg had was like 10 queens and 5 hydralisks, at the 15 minute mark, along with maybe 3-4 swarm hosts?
- In game 2, all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark?
Zergs can be maxed on hydralisks by then, or have so many mutalisks out that your low-carrier-count army stands no chance. What league is this? ^^
The zergs couldve gone pure hydra, or roach hydra, pure muta, roach/hydra/muta/corruptor or even a stephano max at 11 minutes and you would have died on the spot. the zerg had 3 bases but no units. It's kind of confusing?
Also like 4 fungals and your entire interceptor fleet is shut down.
In game 3, the zerg made horrible decisions with his hydra positioning and unit choice.
Also carriers are really really slow, and going for example, mass mutalisks ( with a few corruptors to keep those ph oenix away) will shut you down hard. By the time you reached one of their bases, 5 of yours will have been shut down already. not to forget that mutalisks can head on engage your carrier fleet, since you don't put early (enough) pressure on the zerg and mutalisks can focus fire the small amount of carriers you put out.
Actually Kaluro Muta's are terrible against carriers, 1 Carrier can hold off 10 muta's and will kill so many before it goes down that its not cost effective. The best choice is probably hydra viper but even this is no auto-win.
I'm also confused as to why your saying phoenixs would get shut down by corruptors, None were made.
I have to be to put my foot down on the Fungals shut down interceptors, It never works. 90% this won't be effective for the zerg. Go into a unit tester and try it out for yourself make hydra/infestor vs an equal amount of food in carriers 200/200, and attempt to fungal the interceptors with decent carrier spread, Now add the difficulty of positioning inside a game. Saying only 4 fungals can shut down a interceptor fleet is ridiculous.
You do sound very sure of yourself that mutalisks trade well with carriers, they don't.
"all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark? " I can't tell if this is a troll or not? but it seems to be, What an odd number of units.
"In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base" Actually I think theres a game where I let an overlord sit over carriers building for a few minutes without bothering to kill it, Again... troll....?
The earliest a zerg can come at you with hydra's is about 9 minutes and your two carriers will shut it down assuming your using the nexus cannon and don't attack the hydra's to hit the carriers.
http://www.twitch.tv/sc2cress/c/2376373 go to 32 minutes in, and you will see a zerg who has already played me 3 times in the past, he goes triple hatch before pool, knows no pressure is coming, max's out on a lot of bases spends his money well on corruptors, and its still just not enough.
Its kinda just w/e. People on my stream asked for the build and I'm providing that, nothing more
I'm surprised actually that your not attacking the use of carriers against terran, when its been known for awhile now that carriers are viable against zerg, White-Ra does it often.
"What league is this? ^^" And you sorta have a rude tone to everything you say... 
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On June 06 2013 16:18 mantequilla wrote:
I watched some of your PvT's, terrans scouting carriers even after you have 4-5 still gives you so much trouble by reactively going mass marines.
Most terrans respond with vikings and marines actually. I deliberately put up games that were very blow for blow and down to the wire for entertainment reasons xD. There's games where you shut down the terrans double medivac push and snipe the 3rd and its quickly gg though. I think in probably all of the vods I posted, I break the number one rule of going carriers, always stay over dead space. The game can drag on and go bad for you if things are not micro'd properly
It really comes down to harassment of the terrans 3rd and sieging their production and how well these things go for you. If the terran is allowed to create 40 vikings they will kill you. So sniping vikings and medivacs and trade interceptors for marines is a must. After all, if you think about, Interceptors and marines are both mineral units, it is possible to get good trades
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On June 06 2013 15:44 Meteo Rain wrote:
TL-DR: Nice shot trying to make Carriers useful.
Though right now Carriers are the most costly unit in the game, since you need to buy Interceptors for them to attack. So they are not the most cost effective unit.
Unlike Zerg(SH, BL) they don't spawn free units. *sob*
Carriers are quite costly, but as long as your not getting the carriers them-selfs killed. Your trading Minerals for marines and hydras. Carriers can be cost effective, but they are very unforgiving if caught out of position.
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On June 06 2013 17:23 Cress wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 16:41 kaluro wrote:
Huh? I've watched both PvZ games.
- In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base
- In game 1, all the zerg had was like 10 queens and 5 hydralisks, at the 15 minute mark, along with maybe 3-4 swarm hosts?
- In game 2, all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark?
Zergs can be maxed on hydralisks by then, or have so many mutalisks out that your low-carrier-count army stands no chance. What league is this? ^^
The zergs couldve gone pure hydra, or roach hydra, pure muta, roach/hydra/muta/corruptor or even a stephano max at 11 minutes and you would have died on the spot. the zerg had 3 bases but no units. It's kind of confusing?
Also like 4 fungals and your entire interceptor fleet is shut down.
In game 3, the zerg made horrible decisions with his hydra positioning and unit choice.
Also carriers are really really slow, and going for example, mass mutalisks ( with a few corruptors to keep those ph oenix away) will shut you down hard. By the time you reached one of their bases, 5 of yours will have been shut down already. not to forget that mutalisks can head on engage your carrier fleet, since you don't put early (enough) pressure on the zerg and mutalisks can focus fire the small amount of carriers you put out. Actually Kaluro Muta's are terrible against carriers, 1 Carrier can hold off 10 muta's and will kill so many before it goes down that its not cost effective. The best choice is probably hydra viper but even this is no auto-win. I'm also confused as to why your saying phoenixs would get shut down by corruptors, None were made. I have to be to put my foot down on the Fungals shut down interceptors, It never works. 90% this won't be effective for the zerg. Go into a unit tester and try it out for yourself make hydra/infestor vs an equal amount of food in carriers 200/200, and attempt to fungal the interceptors with decent carrier spread, Now add the difficulty of positioning inside a game. Saying only 4 fungals can shut down a interceptor fleet is ridiculous. You do sound very sure of yourself that mutalisks trade well with carriers, they don't. "all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark? " I can't tell if this is a troll or not? but it seems to be, What an odd number of units. "In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base" Actually I think theres a game where I let an overlord sit over carriers building for a few minutes without bothering to kill it, Again... troll....? The earliest a zerg can come at you with hydra's is about 9 minutes and your two carriers will shut it down assuming your using the nexus cannon and don't attack the hydra's to hit the carriers. http://www.twitch.tv/sc2cress/c/2376373 go to 32 minutes in, and you will see a zerg who has already played me 3 times in the past, he goes triple hatch before pool, knows no pressure is coming, max's out on a lot of bases spends his money well on corruptors, and its still just not enough. Its kinda just w/e. People on my stream asked for the build and I'm providing that, nothing more I'm surprised actually that your not attacking the use of carriers against terran, when its been known for awhile now that carriers are viable against zerg, White-Ra does it often. "What league is this? ^^" And you sorta have a rude tone to everything you say...
In one of the latest WoL matches, it was minigun versus scarlett. Minigun went for carriers, scarlett managed to fungal almost all of the interceptors in one go. And she managed to do that repeatedly. Carriers will focus the same unit when a -moving, most likely, and the interceptors will clump up. If a top player like minigun already doesn't manage to avoid fungals properly, how would you?
The thing about mutalisks is that you didn't attack before the zergs can get up to 5 base, and they can be maxed on mutalisks before you even have a remote chance of securing your expansions or get a decent fleet out. 1 carrier might shut down 10 mutalisks (if you say so), but 5-8 carries do not shut down 60 mutalisks. One mutalisk volley and a carrier is gone.
Carriers are so slow and passive that you will be behind economically beyond any recovery.
a carrier has 450hp and 2 armor.
A mutalisk has 9 damage.
450/(9-2)= 64 mutalisks would one shot a carrier, okay so not 60, 64 ;-).
and of course the mutalisks will wipe out oyur worker lines before engaging your carriers, and by the time they do, the zerg will have banked up so much money that he can easily remax.
I'll play you if you want -> Kaluro.650 EU
after going into the unit tester ->
50 mutalisk kill 8 carriers, with 33 remaining.
40 mutalisks kill 8 carriers, with 20 remaining.
50 mutalisks kill 10 carriers, with 22 remaining.
And these are real numbers, seeing the zerg will have a huge economic lead since you cannot put on any pressure at all.
50 corruptors kill 20 carriers with 30 corruptors remaining.
The carriers had a huge food and cost lead.
And seeing corruptors also gain +2 damage to carriers per upgrade, the more upgrades involved, the further carriers fall behind. Carriers work well in small numbers vs small numbers, but seeing you're not engaging till late-mid game, that's never happpening.
And you most likely won't get the +shields upgrades either?
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Your opening is incredibly inefficient. If you want to go for a Nexus before Core opening then you should consider using NaNiwa's 13 Gate 17 Nexus opening instead:  13 Gate 17 Nexus (Vs. Terran)
In any case, delaying your Core is not something that you should be doing in PvT. What you should actually be doing is opening with a more standard 20 Nexus. You can have two Assimilators operating with only 2 workers in each until after you've expanded, you will be safe against Reapers, your economy will be just as good, and you won't delay the Stargate timing.
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On June 06 2013 17:46 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 17:23 Cress wrote:On June 06 2013 16:41 kaluro wrote:
Huh? I've watched both PvZ games.
- In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base
- In game 1, all the zerg had was like 10 queens and 5 hydralisks, at the 15 minute mark, along with maybe 3-4 swarm hosts?
- In game 2, all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark?
Zergs can be maxed on hydralisks by then, or have so many mutalisks out that your low-carrier-count army stands no chance. What league is this? ^^
The zergs couldve gone pure hydra, or roach hydra, pure muta, roach/hydra/muta/corruptor or even a stephano max at 11 minutes and you would have died on the spot. the zerg had 3 bases but no units. It's kind of confusing?
Also like 4 fungals and your entire interceptor fleet is shut down.
In game 3, the zerg made horrible decisions with his hydra positioning and unit choice.
Also carriers are really really slow, and going for example, mass mutalisks ( with a few corruptors to keep those ph oenix away) will shut you down hard. By the time you reached one of their bases, 5 of yours will have been shut down already. not to forget that mutalisks can head on engage your carrier fleet, since you don't put early (enough) pressure on the zerg and mutalisks can focus fire the small amount of carriers you put out. Actually Kaluro Muta's are terrible against carriers, 1 Carrier can hold off 10 muta's and will kill so many before it goes down that its not cost effective. The best choice is probably hydra viper but even this is no auto-win. I'm also confused as to why your saying phoenixs would get shut down by corruptors, None were made. I have to be to put my foot down on the Fungals shut down interceptors, It never works. 90% this won't be effective for the zerg. Go into a unit tester and try it out for yourself make hydra/infestor vs an equal amount of food in carriers 200/200, and attempt to fungal the interceptors with decent carrier spread, Now add the difficulty of positioning inside a game. Saying only 4 fungals can shut down a interceptor fleet is ridiculous. You do sound very sure of yourself that mutalisks trade well with carriers, they don't. "all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark? " I can't tell if this is a troll or not? but it seems to be, What an odd number of units. "In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base" Actually I think theres a game where I let an overlord sit over carriers building for a few minutes without bothering to kill it, Again... troll....? The earliest a zerg can come at you with hydra's is about 9 minutes and your two carriers will shut it down assuming your using the nexus cannon and don't attack the hydra's to hit the carriers. http://www.twitch.tv/sc2cress/c/2376373 go to 32 minutes in, and you will see a zerg who has already played me 3 times in the past, he goes triple hatch before pool, knows no pressure is coming, max's out on a lot of bases spends his money well on corruptors, and its still just not enough. Its kinda just w/e. People on my stream asked for the build and I'm providing that, nothing more I'm surprised actually that your not attacking the use of carriers against terran, when its been known for awhile now that carriers are viable against zerg, White-Ra does it often. "What league is this? ^^" And you sorta have a rude tone to everything you say... In one of the latest WoL matches, it was minigun versus scarlett. Minigun went for carriers, scarlett managed to fungal almost all of the interceptors in one go. And she managed to do that repeatedly. Carriers will focus the same unit when a -moving, most likely, and the interceptors will clump up. If a top player like minigun already doesn't manage to avoid fungals properly, how would you? The thing about mutalisks is that you didn't attack before the zergs can get up to 5 base, and they can be maxed on mutalisks before you even have a remote chance of securing your expansions or get a decent fleet out. 1 carrier might shut down 10 mutalisks (if you say so), but 5-8 carries do not shut down 60 mutalisks. One mutalisk volley and a carrier is gone. Carriers are so slow and passive that you will be behind economically beyond any recovery. a carrier has 450hp and 2 armor. A mutalisk has 9 damage. 450/(9-2)= 64 mutalisks would one shot a carrier, okay so not 60, 64 ;-). and of course the mutalisks will wipe out oyur worker lines before engaging your carriers, and by the time they do, the zerg will have banked up so much money that he can easily remax. I'll play you if you want -> Kaluro.650 EU after going into the unit tester -> 50 mutalisk kill 8 carriers, with 33 remaining. 40 mutalisks kill 8 carriers, with 20 remaining. 50 mutalisks kill 10 carriers, with 22 remaining. And these are real numbers, seeing the zerg will have a huge economic lead since you cannot put on any pressure at all. 50 corruptors kill 20 carriers with 30 corruptors remaining. The carriers had a huge food and cost lead. And seeing corruptors also gain +2 damage to carriers per upgrade, the more upgrades involved, the further carriers fall behind. Carriers work well in small numbers vs small numbers, but seeing you're not engaging till late-mid game, that's never happpening. And you most likely won't get the +shields upgrades either?
this is a silly counter argument.
In WoL, lots of pro zerg died to archon toilet and those zerg who spread well didn't lose to archon toilet but still, lots of pro zerg died to archon toilets. Then is archon toilet viable?
Not to mention fungal in WoL was instant, it was much better to land those fungals. Scarlet is also a higher skilled player than minigun ever was.
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On June 06 2013 18:29 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 17:46 kaluro wrote:On June 06 2013 17:23 Cress wrote:On June 06 2013 16:41 kaluro wrote:
Huh? I've watched both PvZ games.
- In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base
- In game 1, all the zerg had was like 10 queens and 5 hydralisks, at the 15 minute mark, along with maybe 3-4 swarm hosts?
- In game 2, all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark?
Zergs can be maxed on hydralisks by then, or have so many mutalisks out that your low-carrier-count army stands no chance. What league is this? ^^
The zergs couldve gone pure hydra, or roach hydra, pure muta, roach/hydra/muta/corruptor or even a stephano max at 11 minutes and you would have died on the spot. the zerg had 3 bases but no units. It's kind of confusing?
Also like 4 fungals and your entire interceptor fleet is shut down.
In game 3, the zerg made horrible decisions with his hydra positioning and unit choice.
Also carriers are really really slow, and going for example, mass mutalisks ( with a few corruptors to keep those ph oenix away) will shut you down hard. By the time you reached one of their bases, 5 of yours will have been shut down already. not to forget that mutalisks can head on engage your carrier fleet, since you don't put early (enough) pressure on the zerg and mutalisks can focus fire the small amount of carriers you put out. Actually Kaluro Muta's are terrible against carriers, 1 Carrier can hold off 10 muta's and will kill so many before it goes down that its not cost effective. The best choice is probably hydra viper but even this is no auto-win. I'm also confused as to why your saying phoenixs would get shut down by corruptors, None were made. I have to be to put my foot down on the Fungals shut down interceptors, It never works. 90% this won't be effective for the zerg. Go into a unit tester and try it out for yourself make hydra/infestor vs an equal amount of food in carriers 200/200, and attempt to fungal the interceptors with decent carrier spread, Now add the difficulty of positioning inside a game. Saying only 4 fungals can shut down a interceptor fleet is ridiculous. You do sound very sure of yourself that mutalisks trade well with carriers, they don't. "all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark? " I can't tell if this is a troll or not? but it seems to be, What an odd number of units. "In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base" Actually I think theres a game where I let an overlord sit over carriers building for a few minutes without bothering to kill it, Again... troll....? The earliest a zerg can come at you with hydra's is about 9 minutes and your two carriers will shut it down assuming your using the nexus cannon and don't attack the hydra's to hit the carriers. http://www.twitch.tv/sc2cress/c/2376373 go to 32 minutes in, and you will see a zerg who has already played me 3 times in the past, he goes triple hatch before pool, knows no pressure is coming, max's out on a lot of bases spends his money well on corruptors, and its still just not enough. Its kinda just w/e. People on my stream asked for the build and I'm providing that, nothing more I'm surprised actually that your not attacking the use of carriers against terran, when its been known for awhile now that carriers are viable against zerg, White-Ra does it often. "What league is this? ^^" And you sorta have a rude tone to everything you say... In one of the latest WoL matches, it was minigun versus scarlett. Minigun went for carriers, scarlett managed to fungal almost all of the interceptors in one go. And she managed to do that repeatedly. Carriers will focus the same unit when a -moving, most likely, and the interceptors will clump up. If a top player like minigun already doesn't manage to avoid fungals properly, how would you? The thing about mutalisks is that you didn't attack before the zergs can get up to 5 base, and they can be maxed on mutalisks before you even have a remote chance of securing your expansions or get a decent fleet out. 1 carrier might shut down 10 mutalisks (if you say so), but 5-8 carries do not shut down 60 mutalisks. One mutalisk volley and a carrier is gone. Carriers are so slow and passive that you will be behind economically beyond any recovery. a carrier has 450hp and 2 armor. A mutalisk has 9 damage. 450/(9-2)= 64 mutalisks would one shot a carrier, okay so not 60, 64 ;-). and of course the mutalisks will wipe out oyur worker lines before engaging your carriers, and by the time they do, the zerg will have banked up so much money that he can easily remax. I'll play you if you want -> Kaluro.650 EU after going into the unit tester -> 50 mutalisk kill 8 carriers, with 33 remaining. 40 mutalisks kill 8 carriers, with 20 remaining. 50 mutalisks kill 10 carriers, with 22 remaining. And these are real numbers, seeing the zerg will have a huge economic lead since you cannot put on any pressure at all. 50 corruptors kill 20 carriers with 30 corruptors remaining. The carriers had a huge food and cost lead. And seeing corruptors also gain +2 damage to carriers per upgrade, the more upgrades involved, the further carriers fall behind. Carriers work well in small numbers vs small numbers, but seeing you're not engaging till late-mid game, that's never happpening. And you most likely won't get the +shields upgrades either? this is a silly counter argument. In WoL, lots of pro zerg died to archon toilet and those zerg who spread well didn't lose to archon toilet but still, lots of pro zerg died to archon toilets. Then is archon toilet viable? Not to mention fungal in WoL was instant, it was much better to land those fungals. Scarlet is also a higher skilled player than minigun ever was.
True, the new fungal is quite a bit harder to use but in none of the replays he showed, he had any vision of the zerg's current technology, yet he didnt ever split his carriers but merely a-moved them in a clump. theorycrafting is fun but counterproductive, hence my invitation to play him.
Also, the rest of my post still stands.
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On June 06 2013 17:46 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 17:23 Cress wrote:On June 06 2013 16:41 kaluro wrote:
Huh? I've watched both PvZ games.
- In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base
- In game 1, all the zerg had was like 10 queens and 5 hydralisks, at the 15 minute mark, along with maybe 3-4 swarm hosts?
- In game 2, all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark?
Zergs can be maxed on hydralisks by then, or have so many mutalisks out that your low-carrier-count army stands no chance. What league is this? ^^
The zergs couldve gone pure hydra, or roach hydra, pure muta, roach/hydra/muta/corruptor or even a stephano max at 11 minutes and you would have died on the spot. the zerg had 3 bases but no units. It's kind of confusing?
Also like 4 fungals and your entire interceptor fleet is shut down.
In game 3, the zerg made horrible decisions with his hydra positioning and unit choice.
Also carriers are really really slow, and going for example, mass mutalisks ( with a few corruptors to keep those ph oenix away) will shut you down hard. By the time you reached one of their bases, 5 of yours will have been shut down already. not to forget that mutalisks can head on engage your carrier fleet, since you don't put early (enough) pressure on the zerg and mutalisks can focus fire the small amount of carriers you put out. Actually Kaluro Muta's are terrible against carriers, 1 Carrier can hold off 10 muta's and will kill so many before it goes down that its not cost effective. The best choice is probably hydra viper but even this is no auto-win. I'm also confused as to why your saying phoenixs would get shut down by corruptors, None were made. I have to be to put my foot down on the Fungals shut down interceptors, It never works. 90% this won't be effective for the zerg. Go into a unit tester and try it out for yourself make hydra/infestor vs an equal amount of food in carriers 200/200, and attempt to fungal the interceptors with decent carrier spread, Now add the difficulty of positioning inside a game. Saying only 4 fungals can shut down a interceptor fleet is ridiculous. You do sound very sure of yourself that mutalisks trade well with carriers, they don't. "all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark? " I can't tell if this is a troll or not? but it seems to be, What an odd number of units. "In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base" Actually I think theres a game where I let an overlord sit over carriers building for a few minutes without bothering to kill it, Again... troll....? The earliest a zerg can come at you with hydra's is about 9 minutes and your two carriers will shut it down assuming your using the nexus cannon and don't attack the hydra's to hit the carriers. http://www.twitch.tv/sc2cress/c/2376373 go to 32 minutes in, and you will see a zerg who has already played me 3 times in the past, he goes triple hatch before pool, knows no pressure is coming, max's out on a lot of bases spends his money well on corruptors, and its still just not enough. Its kinda just w/e. People on my stream asked for the build and I'm providing that, nothing more I'm surprised actually that your not attacking the use of carriers against terran, when its been known for awhile now that carriers are viable against zerg, White-Ra does it often. "What league is this? ^^" And you sorta have a rude tone to everything you say... In one of the latest WoL matches, it was minigun versus scarlett. Minigun went for carriers, scarlett managed to fungal almost all of the interceptors in one go. And she managed to do that repeatedly. Carriers will focus the same unit when a -moving, most likely, and the interceptors will clump up. If a top player like minigun already doesn't manage to avoid fungals properly, how would you? The thing about mutalisks is that you didn't attack before the zergs can get up to 5 base, and they can be maxed on mutalisks before you even have a remote chance of securing your expansions or get a decent fleet out. 1 carrier might shut down 10 mutalisks (if you say so), but 5-8 carries do not shut down 60 mutalisks. One mutalisk volley and a carrier is gone. Carriers are so slow and passive that you will be behind economically beyond any recovery. a carrier has 450hp and 2 armor. A mutalisk has 9 damage. 450/(9-2)= 64 mutalisks would one shot a carrier, okay so not 60, 64 ;-). and of course the mutalisks will wipe out oyur worker lines before engaging your carriers, and by the time they do, the zerg will have banked up so much money that he can easily remax. I'll play you if you want -> Kaluro.650 EU after going into the unit tester -> 50 mutalisk kill 8 carriers, with 33 remaining. 40 mutalisks kill 8 carriers, with 20 remaining. 50 mutalisks kill 10 carriers, with 22 remaining. And these are real numbers, seeing the zerg will have a huge economic lead since you cannot put on any pressure at all. 50 corruptors kill 20 carriers with 30 corruptors remaining. The carriers had a huge food and cost lead. And seeing corruptors also gain +2 damage to carriers per upgrade, the more upgrades involved, the further carriers fall behind. Carriers work well in small numbers vs small numbers, but seeing you're not engaging till late-mid game, that's never happpening. And you most likely won't get the +shields upgrades either?
I just want to address this Fungal argument. First of all, you should split the Carriers so that they don't clump and so are less likely to target the same enemy when a-moving. Second of all, if you don't get the Graviton Catapult upgrade, the Interceptors won't come out in one big clump, which means they will be well spread in their random attack arcs by the time they've all left the Carrier. Third of all, Fungal isn't as easy to use as it was in WoL. All of this combined makes it very difficult to hit all the Interceptors with Fungal Growth.
Besides, you should be getting Templar for Storm and Feedback with Carrier builds anyway...
EDIT:
We also have leash micro in HotS. We didn't have that in WoL.
EDIT2:
White-Ra uses Carriers in PvZ all the time so they're definitely viable. He was even doing it in WoL, and they are stronger now they have better support units to aid them (Void Rays, for example). Also, I've actually seen 2 Base Carrier/Chargelot all-ins doing stupid work in PvZ, mostly in some of the smaller tournaments I've watched/participated in. It might only be high Masters/low GM level that I'm seeing this work at, but that's not exactly a low skill level relative to most of the player-base.
I've also fairly certain that I've seen State do a 2 Base Carrier opening against Terran. It isn't anything like the build outlined in the OP, but it seemed fairly stable given how good the Nexus Cannon is at holding off pre-Stim/pre-Medivac pressure. You can have up to 4 Carriers and a tonne of Gateway units out by the time the Terran is ready to pressure you, and it's kinda hard for them to counter the Carriers if they have to deal with the Gateway units at the same time.
So basically... I think Carriers are definitely viable in these match-ups, I'm just not sure that the OP has the best builds to get there. Which is why this is a [D] thread.
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On June 06 2013 18:16 Sated wrote:Your opening is incredibly inefficient. If you want to go for a Nexus before Core opening then you should consider using NaNiwa's 13 Gate 17 Nexus opening instead: 13 Gate 17 Nexus (Vs. Terran)In any case, delaying your Core is not something that you should be doing in PvT. What you should actually be doing is opening with a more standard 20 Nexus. You can have two Assimilators operating with only 2 workers in each until after you've expanded, you will be safe against Reapers, your economy will be just as good, and you won't delay the Stargate timing.
yeah the problem I've found with going pylon into core after the expansion is theres about a 25-30 second difference between the nexus cannon timing. You will get out the stalker to scare off the reaper for sure, but with naniwa's build you nexus cannon will be ready at 6:20-6:25, instead of 6:00-6:05, its just a small preference i guess, but you won't be building those gate ways like with naniwa's build you really need that quick nexus cannon
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On June 06 2013 20:18 Cress wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 18:16 Sated wrote:Your opening is incredibly inefficient. If you want to go for a Nexus before Core opening then you should consider using NaNiwa's 13 Gate 17 Nexus opening instead: 13 Gate 17 Nexus (Vs. Terran)In any case, delaying your Core is not something that you should be doing in PvT. What you should actually be doing is opening with a more standard 20 Nexus. You can have two Assimilators operating with only 2 workers in each until after you've expanded, you will be safe against Reapers, your economy will be just as good, and you won't delay the Stargate timing. yeah the problem I've found with going pylon into core after the expansion is theres about a 25-30 second difference between the nexus cannon timing. You will get out the stalker to scare off the reaper for sure, but with naniwa's build you nexus cannon will be ready at 6:20-6:25, instead of 6:00-6:05, its just a small preference i guess, but you won't be building those gate ways like with naniwa's build you really need that quick nexus cannon
I think you've misunderstood. I don't think that any Nexus before Core opening is good against Terran, unless you can somehow scout that they're 100% not going to build a Reaper.
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On June 06 2013 17:46 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 17:23 Cress wrote:On June 06 2013 16:41 kaluro wrote:
Huh? I've watched both PvZ games.
- In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base
- In game 1, all the zerg had was like 10 queens and 5 hydralisks, at the 15 minute mark, along with maybe 3-4 swarm hosts?
- In game 2, all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark?
Zergs can be maxed on hydralisks by then, or have so many mutalisks out that your low-carrier-count army stands no chance. What league is this? ^^
The zergs couldve gone pure hydra, or roach hydra, pure muta, roach/hydra/muta/corruptor or even a stephano max at 11 minutes and you would have died on the spot. the zerg had 3 bases but no units. It's kind of confusing?
Also like 4 fungals and your entire interceptor fleet is shut down.
In game 3, the zerg made horrible decisions with his hydra positioning and unit choice.
Also carriers are really really slow, and going for example, mass mutalisks ( with a few corruptors to keep those ph oenix away) will shut you down hard. By the time you reached one of their bases, 5 of yours will have been shut down already. not to forget that mutalisks can head on engage your carrier fleet, since you don't put early (enough) pressure on the zerg and mutalisks can focus fire the small amount of carriers you put out. Actually Kaluro Muta's are terrible against carriers, 1 Carrier can hold off 10 muta's and will kill so many before it goes down that its not cost effective. The best choice is probably hydra viper but even this is no auto-win. I'm also confused as to why your saying phoenixs would get shut down by corruptors, None were made. I have to be to put my foot down on the Fungals shut down interceptors, It never works. 90% this won't be effective for the zerg. Go into a unit tester and try it out for yourself make hydra/infestor vs an equal amount of food in carriers 200/200, and attempt to fungal the interceptors with decent carrier spread, Now add the difficulty of positioning inside a game. Saying only 4 fungals can shut down a interceptor fleet is ridiculous. You do sound very sure of yourself that mutalisks trade well with carriers, they don't. "all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark? " I can't tell if this is a troll or not? but it seems to be, What an odd number of units. "In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base" Actually I think theres a game where I let an overlord sit over carriers building for a few minutes without bothering to kill it, Again... troll....? The earliest a zerg can come at you with hydra's is about 9 minutes and your two carriers will shut it down assuming your using the nexus cannon and don't attack the hydra's to hit the carriers. http://www.twitch.tv/sc2cress/c/2376373 go to 32 minutes in, and you will see a zerg who has already played me 3 times in the past, he goes triple hatch before pool, knows no pressure is coming, max's out on a lot of bases spends his money well on corruptors, and its still just not enough. Its kinda just w/e. People on my stream asked for the build and I'm providing that, nothing more I'm surprised actually that your not attacking the use of carriers against terran, when its been known for awhile now that carriers are viable against zerg, White-Ra does it often. "What league is this? ^^" And you sorta have a rude tone to everything you say... In one of the latest WoL matches, it was minigun versus scarlett. Minigun went for carriers, scarlett managed to fungal almost all of the interceptors in one go. And she managed to do that repeatedly. Carriers will focus the same unit when a -moving, most likely, and the interceptors will clump up. If a top player like minigun already doesn't manage to avoid fungals properly, how would you? The thing about mutalisks is that you didn't attack before the zergs can get up to 5 base, and they can be maxed on mutalisks before you even have a remote chance of securing your expansions or get a decent fleet out. 1 carrier might shut down 10 mutalisks (if you say so), but 5-8 carries do not shut down 60 mutalisks. One mutalisk volley and a carrier is gone. Carriers are so slow and passive that you will be behind economically beyond any recovery. a carrier has 450hp and 2 armor. A mutalisk has 9 damage. 450/(9-2)= 64 mutalisks would one shot a carrier, okay so not 60, 64 ;-). and of course the mutalisks will wipe out oyur worker lines before engaging your carriers, and by the time they do, the zerg will have banked up so much money that he can easily remax. I'll play you if you want -> Kaluro.650 EU after going into the unit tester -> 50 mutalisk kill 8 carriers, with 33 remaining. 40 mutalisks kill 8 carriers, with 20 remaining. 50 mutalisks kill 10 carriers, with 22 remaining. And these are real numbers, seeing the zerg will have a huge economic lead since you cannot put on any pressure at all. 50 corruptors kill 20 carriers with 30 corruptors remaining. The carriers had a huge food and cost lead. And seeing corruptors also gain +2 damage to carriers per upgrade, the more upgrades involved, the further carriers fall behind. Carriers work well in small numbers vs small numbers, but seeing you're not engaging till late-mid game, that's never happpening. And you most likely won't get the +shields upgrades either?
Kaluro, we need to talk about real numbers, The zerg who goes for two base muta's will have 13-15 muta's at 9-10 minutes. You have alot of excess minerals you can place 2-3 cannons at each base before you move out and have the mothership core for recall, or photon overcharge, 50 muta's is an insane number you won't see that large amount for along time. Saying things like the zerg will have a huge bank while doing quick muta's is silly.
Your numbers are just not accurate, Its like saying in PvT 50 vikings will beat X number of carriers, I'm sure they would, but your job is to prevent the terran from reaching that number by sieging his 3rd and production no?
This whole argument is silly, are you really satisfied trying to think of ways something won't work? I think your time would be better spent thinking of ways of improving the carrier build? making it more soild? no?
Instead of coming up with reasons why I can't build a house out of glass.... Just help me build the glass house dammit...
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On June 06 2013 20:36 Cress wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 17:46 kaluro wrote:On June 06 2013 17:23 Cress wrote:On June 06 2013 16:41 kaluro wrote:
Huh? I've watched both PvZ games.
- In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base
- In game 1, all the zerg had was like 10 queens and 5 hydralisks, at the 15 minute mark, along with maybe 3-4 swarm hosts?
- In game 2, all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark?
Zergs can be maxed on hydralisks by then, or have so many mutalisks out that your low-carrier-count army stands no chance. What league is this? ^^
The zergs couldve gone pure hydra, or roach hydra, pure muta, roach/hydra/muta/corruptor or even a stephano max at 11 minutes and you would have died on the spot. the zerg had 3 bases but no units. It's kind of confusing?
Also like 4 fungals and your entire interceptor fleet is shut down.
In game 3, the zerg made horrible decisions with his hydra positioning and unit choice.
Also carriers are really really slow, and going for example, mass mutalisks ( with a few corruptors to keep those ph oenix away) will shut you down hard. By the time you reached one of their bases, 5 of yours will have been shut down already. not to forget that mutalisks can head on engage your carrier fleet, since you don't put early (enough) pressure on the zerg and mutalisks can focus fire the small amount of carriers you put out. Actually Kaluro Muta's are terrible against carriers, 1 Carrier can hold off 10 muta's and will kill so many before it goes down that its not cost effective. The best choice is probably hydra viper but even this is no auto-win. I'm also confused as to why your saying phoenixs would get shut down by corruptors, None were made. I have to be to put my foot down on the Fungals shut down interceptors, It never works. 90% this won't be effective for the zerg. Go into a unit tester and try it out for yourself make hydra/infestor vs an equal amount of food in carriers 200/200, and attempt to fungal the interceptors with decent carrier spread, Now add the difficulty of positioning inside a game. Saying only 4 fungals can shut down a interceptor fleet is ridiculous. You do sound very sure of yourself that mutalisks trade well with carriers, they don't. "all the zerg had were 4 corruptors, 3 mutalisks, and 2 queens.. at the 15 minute mark? " I can't tell if this is a troll or not? but it seems to be, What an odd number of units. "In both games, the zerg did not scout anything, he didnt throw an overlord into your base" Actually I think theres a game where I let an overlord sit over carriers building for a few minutes without bothering to kill it, Again... troll....? The earliest a zerg can come at you with hydra's is about 9 minutes and your two carriers will shut it down assuming your using the nexus cannon and don't attack the hydra's to hit the carriers. http://www.twitch.tv/sc2cress/c/2376373 go to 32 minutes in, and you will see a zerg who has already played me 3 times in the past, he goes triple hatch before pool, knows no pressure is coming, max's out on a lot of bases spends his money well on corruptors, and its still just not enough. Its kinda just w/e. People on my stream asked for the build and I'm providing that, nothing more I'm surprised actually that your not attacking the use of carriers against terran, when its been known for awhile now that carriers are viable against zerg, White-Ra does it often. "What league is this? ^^" And you sorta have a rude tone to everything you say... In one of the latest WoL matches, it was minigun versus scarlett. Minigun went for carriers, scarlett managed to fungal almost all of the interceptors in one go. And she managed to do that repeatedly. Carriers will focus the same unit when a -moving, most likely, and the interceptors will clump up. If a top player like minigun already doesn't manage to avoid fungals properly, how would you? The thing about mutalisks is that you didn't attack before the zergs can get up to 5 base, and they can be maxed on mutalisks before you even have a remote chance of securing your expansions or get a decent fleet out. 1 carrier might shut down 10 mutalisks (if you say so), but 5-8 carries do not shut down 60 mutalisks. One mutalisk volley and a carrier is gone. Carriers are so slow and passive that you will be behind economically beyond any recovery. a carrier has 450hp and 2 armor. A mutalisk has 9 damage. 450/(9-2)= 64 mutalisks would one shot a carrier, okay so not 60, 64 ;-). and of course the mutalisks will wipe out oyur worker lines before engaging your carriers, and by the time they do, the zerg will have banked up so much money that he can easily remax. I'll play you if you want -> Kaluro.650 EU after going into the unit tester -> 50 mutalisk kill 8 carriers, with 33 remaining. 40 mutalisks kill 8 carriers, with 20 remaining. 50 mutalisks kill 10 carriers, with 22 remaining. And these are real numbers, seeing the zerg will have a huge economic lead since you cannot put on any pressure at all. 50 corruptors kill 20 carriers with 30 corruptors remaining. The carriers had a huge food and cost lead. And seeing corruptors also gain +2 damage to carriers per upgrade, the more upgrades involved, the further carriers fall behind. Carriers work well in small numbers vs small numbers, but seeing you're not engaging till late-mid game, that's never happpening. And you most likely won't get the +shields upgrades either? Kaluro, we need to talk about real numbers, The zerg who goes for two base muta's will have 13-15 muta's at 9-10 minutes. You have alot of excess minerals you can place 2-3 cannons at each base before you move out and have the mothership core for recall, or photon overcharge, 50 muta's is an insane number you won't see that large amount for along time. Saying things like the zerg will have a huge bank while doing quick muta's is silly. Your numbers are just not accurate, Its like saying in PvT 50 vikings will beat X number of carriers, I'm sure they would, but your job is to prevent the terran from reaching that number by sieging his 3rd and production no? This whole argument is silly, are you really satisfied trying to think of ways something won't work? I think your time would be better spent thinking of ways of improving the carrier build? making it more soild? no? Instead of coming up with reasons why I can't build a house out of glass.... Just help me build the glass house dammit...
The 1v1 invite still stands though  . Better than theorycrafting, since that's just constant rope pulling.
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On June 06 2013 20:22 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 20:18 Cress wrote:On June 06 2013 18:16 Sated wrote:Your opening is incredibly inefficient. If you want to go for a Nexus before Core opening then you should consider using NaNiwa's 13 Gate 17 Nexus opening instead: 13 Gate 17 Nexus (Vs. Terran)In any case, delaying your Core is not something that you should be doing in PvT. What you should actually be doing is opening with a more standard 20 Nexus. You can have two Assimilators operating with only 2 workers in each until after you've expanded, you will be safe against Reapers, your economy will be just as good, and you won't delay the Stargate timing. yeah the problem I've found with going pylon into core after the expansion is theres about a 25-30 second difference between the nexus cannon timing. You will get out the stalker to scare off the reaper for sure, but with naniwa's build you nexus cannon will be ready at 6:20-6:25, instead of 6:00-6:05, its just a small preference i guess, but you won't be building those gate ways like with naniwa's build you really need that quick nexus cannon I think you've misunderstood. I don't think that any Nexus before Core opening is good against Terran, unless you can somehow scout that they're 100% not going to build a Reaper.
Ah well you could be right, losing 1-2 workers to the reaper does kinda suck, You can 9 scout and know 100% of the time if its a reaper opening or not. You could do a core double gas expand, but then we're talking a 4 minute expand or later. The expand is so fast and the reaper delays the terrans expand slightly over going gasless, so I normally just take the worker hit.
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Is this NA masters league? wow...
I dont think that there is a chance that it would work on a T twice / on a T who actively scouts and scans you.
I watched a replay and was dying a little inside.
1. Marauders are awesome against carriers
2. Terrible engagements in chokes with bio
3. no widow mines in engagements
4. no mass expand / using mobility of bio
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shutup ginger. state uses a carrier build in pvt sometimes and wins like 40-50% of the time at a high gm level in pvt so i'm sure this isn't the worst build ever.
anyway, cress what's your win % pvz?
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EPT
