EPT[G] Avilo HOTS Bio Into Raven Accumulation Style™ - Page 2
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FakeDouble
Australia676 Posts
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Rainling
United States456 Posts
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Arkansassy
358 Posts
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govie
9334 Posts
 Nice guide! I have a question, as the answers i got in terran help me thread didnt really satisfy me yet. Would u be so kind to tell me what u think? thx! On May 05 2013 21:04 govie wrote: Hi sc2peeps. I am a ravenlover.. I like ravenplay alot, as i believe some ravens in an army are beneficial in any matchup and can change the outcome of any battle after the 10minute mark, certainly since the hots changes. Also ravens require less micro then ghosts (or thats my experience). My question regards TvP and the use of some ravens to counter high templar/collosi/gateway army. High templar Range 9 sight 10 damage: 80 over 4 seconds Ravens Range 11 sight 11 damage: 100+splash after 5 seconds Ghost Range 10 sight 11 damage: Snipe 50 Just looking at the statistics, i would say that ravens could be more helpfull then ghosts. 1. Two starports with techlab are not more expensive then Ghostacademy with upgrades. And ravens do not require alot of research; 2. Ravens sight and range are better then of the templar and the ghost. They cant be damaged by collosi AoE or zealots; 3. U can kill every observer without scans; 4. U could use the HSM's as the protos uses storm or use them on templar. This means u dont counter templar but basically have your own templar, which damge is less kiteable then templarstorm; 5. Ravens can only be targetted by stalkers which can be countered by pdd 6. When on 3 bases or more it gives u the oppertunity to spend your gas and have more minerals for the bioarmy, which means u can max out faster after a battle. 7. Yes the templar has feedback, but the movement of the templar is very slow and there range/sight is less then of the raven. Therefore the HSM's should allready be launched when the templar would use feedback. In this way, feedback is useless as all the energy on the ravens is allready spend before feedback hits (and ravens have more health too)! Has anyone tried this economical ravens+bio+viking composition against protos and what are your experiences? | ||
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mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
On May 08 2013 01:26 govie wrote: Yo avilo! Nice guide! I have a question, as the answers i got in terran help me thread didnt really satisfy me yet. Would u be so kind to tell me what u think? thx! The answers didn't satisfy you, because they didn't agree with you. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On May 08 2013 02:27 mau5mat wrote: The answers didn't satisfy you, because they didn't agree with you. Not true m8. Im thankfull for the answers i got, but most of the answers were based on knowledge of standard play and not at what i suggested. Apparantly Avilo has alot of experience with ravens, thats why i asked him in his topic;) | ||
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On May 08 2013 04:39 ThePianoDentist wrote: hey avilo you tried ravens in lategame tvp yet. I remember seeing a post from dbs (good, but not very famous) terran player who said his tvp was by far his best matchup and he almost always went lategame incorporating ravens with bio. For such a lategame orientated player its definitely something worth experimenting with, I'm still trying mech so I can't test it myself but i watch your stream (well vods of....campus internet blocks so many ports) so would be cool to see it. Ravens only are useful for PDD vs tempests, otherwise pretty pointless. Ghosts are much better. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
Thanks for the guide avilo! Ravens are so good TvZ. They remind me of the mass Science Vessel end game TvZ in Brood War. Built to kill anything zerg-like. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
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castleeMg
Canada786 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
By the time most upgrades finish your gas starts stockpiling, even more so since the mineral/gas ratio of income tilts towards gas in the end usually since gas depletes quite a bit later on bases than minerals. For example you'll often see terrans with 4 bases and 8 available gas but only 2 available mineral lines. Mech/air armor upgrade also suits this style really well, since it benefits mines, medivacs and ravens. All of which only benefit from armor anyways.. The major problem with raven usage though is that they don't really have a great spell against the most popular ling/bling/ultra lategame. Most units are too fast, the splash can backfire and ultra's soak the damage too well. I wonder if it isn't a good idea to mix in a few banshee's or battlecruisers. These are decent gas sinks too, though not obviously as good ravens. The key though will be that they can force AA a bit, queens/corruptors/muta's or hydra's are much better targets for seeker missile. Still in late game scenario's ravens are the only logical thing to do with your gas pileup. They may not be great but a raven is definately better than a marauder which for most purposes cost practically the same at this stage. 2 techlab starports seems enough though from what i've seen, the rest of the gas should still be used on medivacs, marauders and widow mines probably. I wonder if we get to see more turret use eventually as well, despite their sucky buggyness they are still underrated imo. Of course seeker missile is the better energy use most of the time but I imagine auto-turrets can be better in some cases against ultra-ling and for harassment. By the way isn't it so that seeker missiles only splash against ground if they hit a ground unit and only against air if they hit an air unit? Or was that never the case | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12042 Posts
On May 07 2013 15:19 DemigodcelpH wrote: Correction Seeker Missle delay is 5 seconds not 3. If only mech could be the same way. The most gas intensive composition in the game. You can still get ravens with mech. I get ravens with mech in every matchup and arguably I wouldn't ever win a game without them  | ||
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Yurie
12114 Posts
On May 10 2013 22:43 Markwerf wrote: I wonder if we get to see more turret use eventually as well, despite their sucky buggyness they are still underrated imo. Of course seeker missile is the better energy use most of the time but I imagine auto-turrets can be better in some cases against ultra-ling and for harassment. Wouldn't they be useful against banelings as well? Accidental detonations against them. | ||
Nyovne
Netherlands19141 Posts
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Kalfos
Dominican Republic34 Posts
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policymaker
Greece152 Posts
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
Mech/air armor upgrade also suits this style really well, since it benefits mines, medivacs and ravens. All of which only benefit from armor anyways.. Maybe if you're getting Hellbats, but for MMM Mine, you aren't really building any units that you want to be taking a lot of damage. Personally I'd rather build additional Ravens with the money. | ||
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MarlieChurphy
United States2065 Posts
I don't think ravens are that great versus zerg, + Show Spoiler + zerg just needs to overwhelm you with ling/bling/ultra mass. But if they wanna duke it out, their spellcasters can win too, fungal, infested terrans, and abduct dismantle ravens pretty well It seems like the only way to actually stop ravens is with ravens yourself, Or you can start massing BC and yamato (which takes much longer) and since I have an abundance of resources, I usually end up throwing turrets and marines all over the map. Another key factor is the early upgrades of turrets, pfort, and gun turrets. The range and the armor. very good. As well as the techlab upgrades for ravens, get these before/during your first raven production. Initially if you fast expand, you will struggle to deal with first poke damage by having few seige tanks, half a dozen marines, bunker, and a couple turrets. Eventually you will have turrets up everywhere and like 3-6 tanks covering each other inside/around your bases. You can also try (with your first couple of ravens) to do some mild harassment with seekers or turrets (but ravens are so slow that you have to know they will be able to make it home, as well as that they won't be attacking or countering you at home where you will need the energy and unit in position immediately). Now you just kind of stay around your base defending and expanding. (naked long range expos can be beneficial as well) since you just want the gas as soon as possible even if the base is discovered and killed, the minerals are expendable since you usually end up with a large bank throughout the game. I usually get 3-6 starports with techlab and build 6+ barracks with reactor for the excess minerals to dump into (usually) unupgraded marines. After you have ~16+ ravens, most with full energy, you take a safe path to one of their bases and start dropping turrets and a couple PDD. If their units come at you, you throw out multiple seekers and run while laying more turrets and pdd and possibly more seekers. Once all their units are out of position or dead you turn around and just start dropping turrets all over their base (hopefully their main where the production and supply is). You just blanket as you move across from base to base and if they come at you, you just turn around and use turret cover and pdd to help you retreat safely. It is ridiculously efficient once you get to the mass of ravens. Not only that, but it is very powerful psychologically knowing that all those free units are cutting off portions of the map for 5 minutes (possible nerf or removal of durable materials?) The fundamental flaw with the build, is just getting those 3rd and 4th bases from a hyper aggressive opponent going bio. You have to possibly go 2 factory with widow mines and more tanks and bunker and turrets to help setup the infrastructure which delays the raven production or staggers it out. And versus protoss its more of the same with less options. All they really have is mass fenix and feedback. Feedback works sort of. The templar are so slow and clump so much that a few seekers taking them out is easier than feedbacking your pile. Especially since the ravens naturally stack and are harder to individually click. Fenixes are great vs ravens because they do bonus to light, are super fast (seeker suicide status) and they eat up PDD very very fast since they shoot twice per cooldown. So your most effective means is to have a bunch of turrets and a couple pdd to retreat through or push forward with. Siege units get owned so hard by seekers. especially since Swarm hosts and tanks don't move. And colossus, they stack on the ground units and you hit them with 3-4 missiles each. With the tanks and SH you can drop 1 missile and then a turret next to them and cause friendly splash or just finish em up with the turret attack. Infantry units just melt, its way too hard to spread them all out or pick individual units out when there are dozens of seekers coming in on your pile from front, middle, back, and sides (the range of the missile target is really big, possible nerf might be a good idea). It's nothing like dodging banes or spreading for banes and they do 3 times the damage as a bane to a marine and (what 4 or 5 times the damage to marauder?) Their best option is to attack multiple fronts with 1/3 to 1/2 army sizes in an effort to overload your multitask and weaken the raven's true power of numbers by splitting them up. This is why the mass base defense and building upgrades are effective. (this is a possible nerf area, but seems much less effective unless you have the bunker loading increase upgrade as well) Vikings are nearly useless, thors are defeated by pdd and easy targets of seekers (or the leftover bulk of the defeated army you just send your marine fodder into), ghosts are not that great because ravens detect and the emp range is somewhat shorter. The synergy of the 3 raven spells are just so great. OT- It's actually kind of ironic how the terran/human spells always have the best synergy in blizzard games (maybe it's on purpose?). The archmage, paladin, and mountainking once all decent level are almost unkillable even vs entire armies. In war2 the mages were lightyears better and more effective as the spellcaster. In broodwar we know that science vessels were hands down the best caster in the game with their defense matrix/irradiate eraser runbys among other uses. PS- I have a dozen replays of me just shitting all over most of the terran players in TvT with this build. As well as some vs P. And when zerg is doing hydra roach and doesn't really know how to respond or is taken by surprise. I am looking to refine and try the build on higher level players; as playing random and being crappy with the other matchups keeps my TvT on a lower level than it should be. | ||
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