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Hi guys, I am back with the sequel or new school guide for what players will see cropping up in more and more TvZ games, many may have already seen this innovative style from my stream multiple times.
Expect a few koreans to carbon copy it soon and it to spread like wildfire soon  (you may have noticed Heart in WCS NA attempted this style, but he seemed to be lacking in some of the knowledge on what to do with the unit comp).
And who best to enlighten on what the hell to do with a strategy/unit transition...other than the person that started to perpetuate it? (suck it haters) :D
You may remember reading the original lategame Raven transition guide that I wrote here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315198
Please keep in mind that this is not a build order guide, as you can reach this endgame TvZ style with any opening build order. There are important reference points and guidelines I will give though on when to begin the transition to ravens. This is also a guide giving some tips on how to use the new seeker to increase the probability it will land.
Essentially, the same exact concepts from the original guide I wrote apply in HOTS, with some changes due to the changed seeker missile and energy/upgrade requirements to the raven.
The core concept: Accumulating ravens in lategame TvZ with bio or mech in order to parry Zerg's hive tech. In the example replays I have posted at the end of this guide, the style is a marauder heavy lategame style. Because ultralisks are so strong in HOTS, transitioning to a heavier marauder count is much more necessary. Widow mines and marines only are insufficient if Zerg reaches a maxed ultra/infestor/bane army or even ultra/hydra army.
The key difference stats-wise between HOTS Raven usage and WOL Raven usage - you now have an effective counter to infestors, a more accessible seeker missile, and overall a more reliable raven making it a better investment.
HOTS Seeker Missile: 10 or so range, 3 second target acquisition time, less damage than WOL seeker, but costs less energy at 75 energy
Production Set Up for avilo's HOTS Bio into Raven Accumulation™: In my previous guide, the main goal was to get up to 3-4 base gas economy and then add on 2 tech labbed star ports in conjunction with a reactored starport.
I have changed my own style and guidelines for this in HOTS due to ravens not sucking as hard. Now I add 4 tech labbed starports instead of the previous 2.
With the stipulation - your 3/3 upgrades should currently be researching. This is the most important part that I can emphasize.
I also add on approximately 3-4 tech labbed barracks after 3 bases solely for marauder production. Marauders are very much a lategame TvZ unit nowadays because of how strong ultralisks are.
The composition you end up with will be a marauder heavy bio army with essentially a slow build up of ravens to allow you maximum cost efficiency and trades while still maintaining the mobility of bio+medivacs.
A Word of Warning:
Not every TvZ you play will get to this late game stage. But the goal is to play as standard and efficient as possible with your macro, and with that in mind it's important that your main army is as strong as possible so all vespene gas has to be invested towards your 3/3 before tech labbed starports.
Remember, with this style ravens are not meant to be a "gimmick" or "fancy shit." You will want to essentially play the best possible early and mid-game TvZ as humanly possible with de facto standard widow mine + bio or tank + bio. If you can outplay your opponent in the first 15 minutes and kill them...by all means do so!
Do not purposely aim for "getting mass ravens." That is not viable at all. Ravens are meant to be used if you cannot kill your opponent or they are playing perfect Zerg turtle which will force you into late game, in which ravens are your go to option to parry hive tech.
When to begin the Raven Production?
Essentially, after your 3/3 is researching, and after you have added on late game tech labbed barracks for marauder production. At this point in the game, you'll be on essentially pure bio, with a few mines or tanks, and all of your vespene gas income will go into accumulating ravens to combat Zerg hive tech.
How to Micro/Target with Ravens in HOTS:
There is now an art to seeker missile usage because a seeker is not guaranteed to ever go off. I have personally found in HOTS, the more and more experience that you have using the new seeker will allow you to make the missile more reliable.
A lot of using the HOTS seeker is about judging distance of unit positioning in comparison to your raven's, judging whether your opponent will commit his units to attack, and this is a skill that can be learned and practiced.
Here are a few seeker techniques to make your seeker missiles more reliably go off, as well as guidelines to follow to hopefully help you in the learning process:
Raven Seeker Target Techniques:
The Point Blank WOL-style Seeker:
![[image loading]](http://uniqideas.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/kitten-with-hands-up-gun-pointed-at.jpg)
Just as the description says, you will want to get your raven as close to the target as possible and then use your seeker missile.
Since the distance between the seeker and the target is very short, there is less chance the enemy unit will be able to escape the activation range on the seeker.
This technique you will want to use when you want guaranteed seeker hits, and also can be used a lot in conjunction with point defense drone to make it possible for your raven to survive.
How many seekers to risk?
With this type of targetting, feel free to throw out as many seekers as necessary, because most of them will land (if not all). Very useful on slow units like broodlords, or infestors off of creep.
The "Come at me bro" Seeker:
![[image loading]](http://colaholicu.ro/wp-content/uploads/come-at-me-bro-chicken.jpg)
This is basically a seeker missile you fire as your opponent is committing to an attack. It takes a bit of experience to know when a Zerg will commit their units, but usually it involves a huge engagement of your main army with theirs, probably involving fungals as well.
This is where you seeker infestors, broods, and hydra/roach while kiting bio backwards (or just running) and running your raven/viking backwards while sometimes also utilizing PDD for extra defense.
The dangers in using this are knowing which units to target, and also you want to do this at a range far enough that your ravens are able to run away with the rest of your army.
An example of a bad thing to do here would be to seeker 3 corruptors that are flying near your army/raven flock, because good opponents can suicide those units into you. The same goes for ultralisks - you have to be very careful to be on the full run so that you don't eat too many of your own seekers.
You always will be kiting your bio army away while throwing these seekers into your opponent as they run at you.
How many seekers to risk?
Remember, do not expend all of your seekers as it's still possible that your opponent will retreat causing seeker failure.
The "Stay the Fuck Away Bro" Seeker:
![[image loading]](http://www.troll.me/images2/grammar-correction-guy/stop-it.jpg)
You know those times when you...need more time? That's what this technique is for. Let's say your opponent killed a chunk of your army, or has you in a bad spot, and is about to try to steamroll you down.
What do you do? You use a few seekers on their army from the max distance possible, usually 2-3 that's enough to say "fuck off, come back later."
Because you are firing from max seeker distance, there is a very, very low chance your seekers are going to activate. But that is OK in this instance. You want more time, and that's what this technique does. It gives you a bit of extra time to rally more units up, get in a better position, etc...and if your opponent still wants to come at you...well, he's going to be taking a lot of damage for free.
How many seekers to risk?
Usually 1-2 seekers, and no more. Remember, there's probably a 5-10% chance of these ever activating, you don't want to panic and throw out so many that you have no energy for later on.
The "Kamehameha" Seeker:
![[image loading]](http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120415171313/dbaf/images/b/bd/Goku-ssj-kamehameha.jpg)
This one is what you may have seen Bomber do with medivacs...it's quite simple really. You target one of your own medivacs with 2-3 seekers, wait a second for the seeker to acquire the medivac, and then speed boost into your opponent's army.
This technique can be very useful in lategame viking/raven vs corruptor fights, because it's a seeker that's under your control, rather than the opponent's control (reminiscent of irradiating your own science vessels BW TvZ...)
What to do against different unit compositions:
Hydra/Roach/Viper:
If you are going bio against hydra/roach/viper and end up with ravens, there will be times when you want to use energy on PDD, and other times when Zerg is committing to fighting you or you have them backed into a place where they have to fight...then you use seeker missile on clumps of hydras.
If Zerg lands blinding clouds, you can also use the "Stay the fuck away bro™" seeker and run, if Zerg follows you, his units will go boom.
Ultralisk/Ling/Infestor
This one is very tricky, but your first priority is doing your best to seeker the infestors. If you do somehow manage to get rid of infestors, or there are mainly ultras left, you can seeker the ultras but you have to use "Point Blank Seekers™" so that they will go off, and you have to kite away with bio.
Alternatively, once the infestors are dead you can oftentimes just save your raven energy and try to take out the ultras with your bio or force them back while they remake units.
Ultralisk/Hydra
PDD can be useful here but basically seeker as many hydras as you can while kiting away with bio. It really depends on their ratio of ultra/hydra. If they have a ton of hydras you may be able to kill the ultras with bio and then use only PDD to have an invincible army, or you can just go for the seekers anyways.
Mass mutalisk/Ling/Baneling
If you're playing someone that stays on this into 200/200, you're going to have to do your best to pull off good Point Blank seekers when banelings roll by, while kiting with bio.
If you can seeker enough banelings, the rest is a pretty easy cleanup with bio + medivacs. If you do seeker his mutas, be sure to seeker mutas near the center of the clump so that it's harder for Zerg to pick out the targetted muta. It's tough and up to your micro here and the situation because you don't want to launch 5 seekers into mutas and then have the mutas fly over your army -_-
End of Avilo's HOTS Bio Into Raven Accumulation Style™:
Please keep in mind, a lot of my previous guide found here still applies to the HOTS Raven.
I encourage Terrans to experiment with the new raven and get more experience with the new seeker missile. There is a skill element in getting your seeker missiles to activate very often, and after you play with this style a lot you'll find you'll very rarely have dud seekers, and you'll get better at using raven energy as efficiently as you can to survive through multiple remaxes of the Zerg.
Seeing is Believing (Replays):
http://rapidshare.com/files/3705767052/aviloHOTSbioRavenTransition.rar
Just as a note: the replays above, i believe in most of them i utilize a very standard and common 3 CC into bio opening, nothing too out of the ordinary goes on until 3/3 infantry upgrades are being researched and then...enjoy
+ Show Spoiler +p.s. In a week or two, perhaps a few more, maybe a month...some brave korean will finally execute this style well and everyone will applaud him, deeming him insanely creative...but you will remember this thread and grin remembering that a foreigner came up with it first
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a GSL will be won with this style
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I don't think you can prove/claim you came up with the style. Just because you were the first to write a guide on it doesn't mean no one else has been using it before you.
Anyway, to the point, I've seen a number of good Koreans use this kind of composition on stream and it definitely seems strong. The seeker missile on your own medivac then boosting it into the army thing that bomber did was hilariously awesome though haha
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I've been doing this since I tend to get a lot of spare gas once 3/3 starts researching, often ending up with 0 minerals and a ton of gas. I basically think of the raven as a 100 mineral unit at that point since the gas isn't being used anyways... and they're really good and easy to keep alive (use energy -> move them back to base while bio continuous attacking)
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Bomber's medimissile very effective.
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Dont worry man, youll also be copied by a ton of white dudes who speak about 15 different langages.
You gotta see the wider picture. nice read.
Will give it a shot for sure.
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Avilo is the most underrated player in the old USA , he really should join EG or something , he has true talent and dedication.
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On May 07 2013 13:17 dafnay wrote:
Avilo is the most underrated player in the old USA , he really should join EG or something , he has true talent and dedication.
yeah Avilo is pretty smart, but imagine the hilarious situation of Avilo and IdrA in the same team
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United Kingdom20278 Posts
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Not a bad guide as ravens are super good but this isn't new ravens in late game have been being used for the past month or so in tvz if it gets to that stage ^^. mainly on the korean server but some NA players have been doing this for awhile as well.
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This style is also amazing in TvT
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On May 07 2013 14:10 blade55555 wrote:
Not a bad guide as ravens are super good but this isn't new ravens in late game have been being used for the past month or so in tvz if it gets to that stage ^^. mainly on the korean server but some NA players have been doing this for awhile as well.
Yeh, i know. I'm mostly joking with the "omg i invented it" although when it comes down to it I haven't seen many other Terrans use the bio + raven strategy with the new seeker for a mobile style, and with more of an emphasis on pure bio and accumulating a lot of ravens instead of using vikings.
A lot of the raven usage before was pure turtle raven where you'd only be able to do it on split maps, like metropolis. Maybe it just seems more new-ish to me personally because i hadn't played bio style in forever into raven accumulation, not to mention blizzard wised up and made it so if you make ravens there's no longer a 2 minute period where you just insta-die from ravens that float there doing nothing !
The norm right now still seems -> make bio + mines -> do it until you or the zerg dies with no gameplan beyond that. Hence the guide/tips/replays :Beer:
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Bio is so cost effective that terrans always ended their games with a ton of gas.
I was wondering why so few terrans were transitionning in mass ravens lategame... I guess it wont be the case anymore. As if this matchup was not hard enough ahah
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Watched half of the replays so far. Thanks for the guide--should help Terrans get into the groove of transitioning into Ravens in the late game.
Off-topic, but I was thinking this while watching your replays:
Wouldn't it be nice if casters had a total count of "charges" of an ability? Maybe you have a flock of 16 Ravens and you could see that you have 22 Seeker Missiles available, or 30 Turrets. I suppose this could "dumb" down the game, but it helps to know the difference between having 1 seeker missile available in your Raven flock vs. 10 seeker missiles before charging into a battle... The same applies to Ghosts, Infestors, etc.
EDIT: Semi-on/off-topic question... When should we research tunneling claws?
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On May 07 2013 14:10 blade55555 wrote:
Not a bad guide as ravens are super good but this isn't new ravens in late game have been being used for the past month or so in tvz if it gets to that stage ^^. mainly on the korean server but some NA players have been doing this for awhile as well.
Yeh, i know. I'm mostly joking with the "omg i invented it" although when it comes down to it I haven't seen many other Terrans use the bio + raven strategy with the new seeker for a mobile style, and with more of an emphasis on pure bio and accumulating a lot of ravens instead of using vikings.
A lot of the raven usage before was pure turtle raven where you'd only be able to do it on split maps, like metropolis. Maybe it just seems more new-ish to me personally because i hadn't played bio style in forever into raven accumulation, not to mention blizzard wised up and made it so if you make ravens there's no longer a 2 minute period where you just insta-die from ravens that float there doing nothing !
The norm right now still seems -> make bio + mines -> do it until you or the zerg dies with no gameplan beyond that. Hence the guide/tips/replays :Beer:
On May 07 2013 12:58 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
Dont worry man, youll also be copied by a ton of white dudes who speak about 15 different langages.
You gotta see the wider picture. nice read.
Will give it a shot for sure.
On May 07 2013 12:10 Grobyc wrote:
I don't think you can prove/claim you came up with the style. Just because you were the first to write a guide on it doesn't mean no one else has been using it before you.
Anyway, to the point, I've seen a number of good Koreans use this kind of composition on stream and it definitely seems strong. The seeker missile on your own medivac then boosting it into the army thing that bomber did was hilariously awesome though haha
NP, i'm being sarcastic for the most part guys lol. Though I like to think i dabble in a lot of the new edgy strategies that end up popping up in the metagame months later after some S class korean does it and everyone then decides it was worthwhile to copy lol :D
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Lol at your tm.... Seriously dude
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On May 07 2013 14:52 Chicken Chaser wrote:
Watched half of the replays so far. Thanks for the guide--should help Terrans get into the groove of transitioning into Ravens in the late game.
Off-topic, but I was thinking this while watching your replays:
Wouldn't it be nice if casters had a total count of "charges" of an ability? Maybe you have a flock of 16 Ravens and you could see that you have 22 Seeker Missiles available, or 30 Turrets. I suppose this could "dumb" down the game, but it helps to know the difference between having 1 seeker missile available in your Raven flock vs. 10 seeker missiles before charging into a battle... The same applies to Ghosts, Infestors, etc.
EDIT: Semi-on/off-topic question... When should we research tunneling claws?
Most Terrans research tunneling claws as their 2/2 upgrades or going if they are putting an emphasis on widow mines. Otherwise, you can get it as late as starting your 3/3 infantry upgrades.
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Mad props for being the few Terrans outside of Korea to be innovating - and - posting guides on TL. I'm thinking that cloak banshee into ravens is a brilliant transition - since, going cloak delays upgrades. But "magic" damage from ravens ignore upgrades - and hopefully buys enough time to even out upgrades at 3/3.
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On May 07 2013 11:22 avilo wrote:
HOTS Seeker Missile: 10 or so range, 3 second target acquisition time, less damage than WOL seeker, but costs less energy at 75 energy
Correction Seeker Missle delay is 5 seconds not 3.
On May 07 2013 14:50 Insoleet wrote:
Bio is so cost effective that terrans always ended their games with a ton of gas.
If only mech could be the same way. The most gas intensive composition in the game.
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Yea, totally awesome guide!
Late game TvZ has really been fucking up my win rate.
Glad to see that there are still Terrans out there putting in the effort to provide info for those of us stuck in the quagmire that is late game TvZ. Ultras are a bitch to deal with btw /rant.
Thanks for this Avilo, will definitely give it a try!
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lol explanation via meme pics. so get 4 tech lab starport raven after starting 3/3. Ravens just make sense resource-wise.
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Nice guide, I love the descriptions! This makes me want to switch to terran, microing ravens looks like a lot of fun with the new missile.
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Avilo, you are so innovative and original. This guide is proof of your dedication to the game and to the Terran race. Good job.
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Yo avilo!
Nice guide! I have a question, as the answers i got in terran help me thread didnt really satisfy me yet. Would u be so kind to tell me what u think? thx!
On May 05 2013 21:04 govie wrote:Hi sc2peeps. I am a ravenlover.. I like ravenplay alot, as i believe some ravens in an army are beneficial in any matchup and can change the outcome of any battle after the 10minute mark, certainly since the hots changes. Also ravens require less micro then ghosts (or thats my experience). My question regards TvP and the use of some ravens to counter high templar/collosi/gateway army. High templar Range 9 sight 10 damage: 80 over 4 seconds Ravens Range 11 sight 11 damage: 100+splash after 5 seconds Ghost Range 10 sight 11 damage: Snipe 50 Just looking at the statistics, i would say that ravens could be more helpfull then ghosts. 1. Two starports with techlab are not more expensive then Ghostacademy with upgrades. And ravens do not require alot of research; 2. Ravens sight and range are better then of the templar and the ghost. They cant be damaged by collosi AoE or zealots; 3. U can kill every observer without scans; 4. U could use the HSM's as the protos uses storm or use them on templar. This means u dont counter templar but basically have your own templar, which damge is less kiteable then templarstorm; 5. Ravens can only be targetted by stalkers which can be countered by pdd 6. When on 3 bases or more it gives u the oppertunity to spend your gas and have more minerals for the bioarmy, which means u can max out faster after a battle. 7. Yes the templar has feedback, but the movement of the templar is very slow and there range/sight is less then of the raven. Therefore the HSM's should allready be launched when the templar would use feedback. In this way, feedback is useless as all the energy on the ravens is allready spend before feedback hits (and ravens have more health too)! Has anyone tried this economical ravens+bio+viking composition against protos and what are your experiences?
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On May 08 2013 01:26 govie wrote:Yo avilo! Nice guide! I have a question, as the answers i got in terran help me thread didnt really satisfy me yet. Would u be so kind to tell me what u think? thx! Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 21:04 govie wrote:Hi sc2peeps. I am a ravenlover.. I like ravenplay alot, as i believe some ravens in an army are beneficial in any matchup and can change the outcome of any battle after the 10minute mark, certainly since the hots changes. Also ravens require less micro then ghosts (or thats my experience). My question regards TvP and the use of some ravens to counter high templar/collosi/gateway army. High templar Range 9 sight 10 damage: 80 over 4 seconds Ravens Range 11 sight 11 damage: 100+splash after 5 seconds Ghost Range 10 sight 11 damage: Snipe 50 Just looking at the statistics, i would say that ravens could be more helpfull then ghosts. 1. Two starports with techlab are not more expensive then Ghostacademy with upgrades. And ravens do not require alot of research; 2. Ravens sight and range are better then of the templar and the ghost. They cant be damaged by collosi AoE or zealots; 3. U can kill every observer without scans; 4. U could use the HSM's as the protos uses storm or use them on templar. This means u dont counter templar but basically have your own templar, which damge is less kiteable then templarstorm; 5. Ravens can only be targetted by stalkers which can be countered by pdd 6. When on 3 bases or more it gives u the oppertunity to spend your gas and have more minerals for the bioarmy, which means u can max out faster after a battle. 7. Yes the templar has feedback, but the movement of the templar is very slow and there range/sight is less then of the raven. Therefore the HSM's should allready be launched when the templar would use feedback. In this way, feedback is useless as all the energy on the ravens is allready spend before feedback hits (and ravens have more health too)! Has anyone tried this economical ravens+bio+viking composition against protos and what are your experiences?
The answers didn't satisfy you, because they didn't agree with you.
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On May 08 2013 02:27 mau5mat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 01:26 govie wrote:Yo avilo! Nice guide! I have a question, as the answers i got in terran help me thread didnt really satisfy me yet. Would u be so kind to tell me what u think? thx! On May 05 2013 21:04 govie wrote:Hi sc2peeps. I am a ravenlover.. I like ravenplay alot, as i believe some ravens in an army are beneficial in any matchup and can change the outcome of any battle after the 10minute mark, certainly since the hots changes. Also ravens require less micro then ghosts (or thats my experience). My question regards TvP and the use of some ravens to counter high templar/collosi/gateway army. High templar Range 9 sight 10 damage: 80 over 4 seconds Ravens Range 11 sight 11 damage: 100+splash after 5 seconds Ghost Range 10 sight 11 damage: Snipe 50 Just looking at the statistics, i would say that ravens could be more helpfull then ghosts. 1. Two starports with techlab are not more expensive then Ghostacademy with upgrades. And ravens do not require alot of research; 2. Ravens sight and range are better then of the templar and the ghost. They cant be damaged by collosi AoE or zealots; 3. U can kill every observer without scans; 4. U could use the HSM's as the protos uses storm or use them on templar. This means u dont counter templar but basically have your own templar, which damge is less kiteable then templarstorm; 5. Ravens can only be targetted by stalkers which can be countered by pdd 6. When on 3 bases or more it gives u the oppertunity to spend your gas and have more minerals for the bioarmy, which means u can max out faster after a battle. 7. Yes the templar has feedback, but the movement of the templar is very slow and there range/sight is less then of the raven. Therefore the HSM's should allready be launched when the templar would use feedback. In this way, feedback is useless as all the energy on the ravens is allready spend before feedback hits (and ravens have more health too)! Has anyone tried this economical ravens+bio+viking composition against protos and what are your experiences? The answers didn't satisfy you, because they didn't agree with you.
Not true m8. Im thankfull for the answers i got, but most of the answers were based on knowledge of standard play and not at what i suggested. Apparantly Avilo has alot of experience with ravens, thats why i asked him in his topic;)
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I like the pictures (^_^).
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hey avilo you tried ravens in lategame tvp yet. I remember seeing a post from dbs (good, but not very famous) terran player who said his tvp was by far his best matchup and he almost always went lategame incorporating ravens with bio. For such a lategame orientated player its definitely something worth experimenting with, I'm still trying mech so I can't test it myself but i watch your stream (well vods of....campus internet blocks so many ports) so would be cool to see it.
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On May 08 2013 04:39 ThePianoDentist wrote:
hey avilo you tried ravens in lategame tvp yet. I remember seeing a post from dbs (good, but not very famous) terran player who said his tvp was by far his best matchup and he almost always went lategame incorporating ravens with bio. For such a lategame orientated player its definitely something worth experimenting with, I'm still trying mech so I can't test it myself but i watch your stream (well vods of....campus internet blocks so many ports) so would be cool to see it.
Ravens only are useful for PDD vs tempests, otherwise pretty pointless. Ghosts are much better.
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Haha you guys need to lighten up a bit. Some of you sound like you're competing in the next GSL. x]
Thanks for the guide avilo!
Ravens are so good TvZ. They remind me of the mass Science Vessel end game TvZ in Brood War. Built to kill anything zerg-like.
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I like it. One question though: Where's the [G] tag?
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no doubt this is a good strategy and you are a top NA terran but after watching your stream a few times it really saddens me to see how rude and disrespectful you are towards other players. winning or losing you call your opponent an idiot/retarded every 30 seconds. not everyone is an idiot because you outskill them or because they all inned you. i really hope you dont have the same "im better than you" attitude to people you deal with in real life cause it won't get you very far. ggs tho
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Ravens make a lot of sense resource and upgrade wise.
By the time most upgrades finish your gas starts stockpiling, even more so since the mineral/gas ratio of income tilts towards gas in the end usually since gas depletes quite a bit later on bases than minerals. For example you'll often see terrans with 4 bases and 8 available gas but only 2 available mineral lines.
Mech/air armor upgrade also suits this style really well, since it benefits mines, medivacs and ravens. All of which only benefit from armor anyways..
The major problem with raven usage though is that they don't really have a great spell against the most popular ling/bling/ultra lategame. Most units are too fast, the splash can backfire and ultra's soak the damage too well.
I wonder if it isn't a good idea to mix in a few banshee's or battlecruisers. These are decent gas sinks too, though not obviously as good ravens. The key though will be that they can force AA a bit, queens/corruptors/muta's or hydra's are much better targets for seeker missile.
Still in late game scenario's ravens are the only logical thing to do with your gas pileup. They may not be great but a raven is definately better than a marauder which for most purposes cost practically the same at this stage. 2 techlab starports seems enough though from what i've seen, the rest of the gas should still be used on medivacs, marauders and widow mines probably.
I wonder if we get to see more turret use eventually as well, despite their sucky buggyness they are still underrated imo. Of course seeker missile is the better energy use most of the time but I imagine auto-turrets can be better in some cases against ultra-ling and for harassment.
By the way isn't it so that seeker missiles only splash against ground if they hit a ground unit and only against air if they hit an air unit? Or was that never the case
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On May 07 2013 15:19 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 11:22 avilo wrote:
HOTS Seeker Missile: 10 or so range, 3 second target acquisition time, less damage than WOL seeker, but costs less energy at 75 energy
Correction Seeker Missle delay is 5 seconds not 3. Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 14:50 Insoleet wrote:
Bio is so cost effective that terrans always ended their games with a ton of gas.
If only mech could be the same way. The most gas intensive composition in the game.
You can still get ravens with mech. I get ravens with mech in every matchup and arguably I wouldn't ever win a game without them 
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On May 10 2013 22:43 Markwerf wrote:
I wonder if we get to see more turret use eventually as well, despite their sucky buggyness they are still underrated imo. Of course seeker missile is the better energy use most of the time but I imagine auto-turrets can be better in some cases against ultra-ling and for harassment.
Wouldn't they be useful against banelings as well? Accidental detonations against them.
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Netherlands19129 Posts
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Dominican Republic34 Posts
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Thanx for this guide, u won me over right at the " Ravens are meant to be used if you cannot kill your opponent or they are playing perfect Zerg turtle which will force you into late game". TVZ is my best matchup(and the only one I can actually compete vs masters), but I find it really hard to win a game when opponent zerg isnt braindead and just "spores" and "spines" his way to super late game.
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Mech/air armor upgrade also suits this style really well, since it benefits mines, medivacs and ravens. All of which only benefit from armor anyways..
Maybe if you're getting Hellbats, but for MMM Mine, you aren't really building any units that you want to be taking a lot of damage. Personally I'd rather build additional Ravens with the money.
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I have been playing random since HOTS came out and pretty much since then I have been trying to use apply ravens (really since nazgul, tt1,ntt abused me so bad on LT in beta though with ravens). So I think I beat you with the application of the power of the ravens.
I don't think ravens are that great versus zerg, + Show Spoiler +zerg just needs to overwhelm you with ling/bling/ultra mass. But if they wanna duke it out, their spellcasters can win too, fungal, infested terrans, and abduct dismantle ravens pretty well
It seems like the only way to actually stop ravens is with ravens yourself, Or you can start massing BC and yamato (which takes much longer) and since I have an abundance of resources, I usually end up throwing turrets and marines all over the map.
Another key factor is the early upgrades of turrets, pfort, and gun turrets. The range and the armor. very good. As well as the techlab upgrades for ravens, get these before/during your first raven production.
Initially if you fast expand, you will struggle to deal with first poke damage by having few seige tanks, half a dozen marines, bunker, and a couple turrets. Eventually you will have turrets up everywhere and like 3-6 tanks covering each other inside/around your bases. You can also try (with your first couple of ravens) to do some mild harassment with seekers or turrets (but ravens are so slow that you have to know they will be able to make it home, as well as that they won't be attacking or countering you at home where you will need the energy and unit in position immediately).
Now you just kind of stay around your base defending and expanding. (naked long range expos can be beneficial as well) since you just want the gas as soon as possible even if the base is discovered and killed, the minerals are expendable since you usually end up with a large bank throughout the game. I usually get 3-6 starports with techlab and build 6+ barracks with reactor for the excess minerals to dump into (usually) unupgraded marines.
After you have ~16+ ravens, most with full energy, you take a safe path to one of their bases and start dropping turrets and a couple PDD. If their units come at you, you throw out multiple seekers and run while laying more turrets and pdd and possibly more seekers. Once all their units are out of position or dead you turn around and just start dropping turrets all over their base (hopefully their main where the production and supply is). You just blanket as you move across from base to base and if they come at you, you just turn around and use turret cover and pdd to help you retreat safely. It is ridiculously efficient once you get to the mass of ravens. Not only that, but it is very powerful psychologically knowing that all those free units are cutting off portions of the map for 5 minutes (possible nerf or removal of durable materials?)
The fundamental flaw with the build, is just getting those 3rd and 4th bases from a hyper aggressive opponent going bio. You have to possibly go 2 factory with widow mines and more tanks and bunker and turrets to help setup the infrastructure which delays the raven production or staggers it out.
And versus protoss its more of the same with less options. All they really have is mass fenix and feedback. Feedback works sort of. The templar are so slow and clump so much that a few seekers taking them out is easier than feedbacking your pile. Especially since the ravens naturally stack and are harder to individually click. Fenixes are great vs ravens because they do bonus to light, are super fast (seeker suicide status) and they eat up PDD very very fast since they shoot twice per cooldown. So your most effective means is to have a bunch of turrets and a couple pdd to retreat through or push forward with.
Siege units get owned so hard by seekers. especially since Swarm hosts and tanks don't move. And colossus, they stack on the ground units and you hit them with 3-4 missiles each. With the tanks and SH you can drop 1 missile and then a turret next to them and cause friendly splash or just finish em up with the turret attack.
Infantry units just melt, its way too hard to spread them all out or pick individual units out when there are dozens of seekers coming in on your pile from front, middle, back, and sides (the range of the missile target is really big, possible nerf might be a good idea). It's nothing like dodging banes or spreading for banes and they do 3 times the damage as a bane to a marine and (what 4 or 5 times the damage to marauder?)
Their best option is to attack multiple fronts with 1/3 to 1/2 army sizes in an effort to overload your multitask and weaken the raven's true power of numbers by splitting them up. This is why the mass base defense and building upgrades are effective. (this is a possible nerf area, but seems much less effective unless you have the bunker loading increase upgrade as well)
Vikings are nearly useless, thors are defeated by pdd and easy targets of seekers (or the leftover bulk of the defeated army you just send your marine fodder into), ghosts are not that great because ravens detect and the emp range is somewhat shorter. The synergy of the 3 raven spells are just so great.
OT- It's actually kind of ironic how the terran/human spells always have the best synergy in blizzard games (maybe it's on purpose?). The archmage, paladin, and mountainking once all decent level are almost unkillable even vs entire armies. In war2 the mages were lightyears better and more effective as the spellcaster. In broodwar we know that science vessels were hands down the best caster in the game with their defense matrix/irradiate eraser runbys among other uses.
PS- I have a dozen replays of me just shitting all over most of the terran players in TvT with this build. As well as some vs P. And when zerg is doing hydra roach and doesn't really know how to respond or is taken by surprise.
I am looking to refine and try the build on higher level players; as playing random and being crappy with the other matchups keeps my TvT on a lower level than it should be.
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Avilo!, Get some of you're replays onto youtube casts >:S You definitely deserve more exposure as one of the few decent NA Terrans (that I know of)
Loved the guide.
♥ Bot
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Fun fact: 5 seeker missiles tracking your own medivac is cheaper and faster than launching a nuke, since the damage is from energy and you skip building ghost academies.
Main disadvantage is of course you can't damage buildings, which means spine/spore forest + Swarmhost/queen is bad news
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On May 08 2013 17:00 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 04:39 ThePianoDentist wrote:
hey avilo you tried ravens in lategame tvp yet. I remember seeing a post from dbs (good, but not very famous) terran player who said his tvp was by far his best matchup and he almost always went lategame incorporating ravens with bio. For such a lategame orientated player its definitely something worth experimenting with, I'm still trying mech so I can't test it myself but i watch your stream (well vods of....campus internet blocks so many ports) so would be cool to see it.
Ravens only are useful for PDD vs tempests, otherwise pretty pointless. Ghosts are much better.
Yeah. Feedback is just too dangerous for large raven armies to be useful vs Protoss. You'll never be able to EMP all the HTs, and if you miss even one HT it could potentially disable or destroy 2-4 ravens. Considering that HTs can be warped in from a warpgate and that ravens take a LONG time to build from a starport, it's just not worth it.
Also, with bio, ravens slow your army down, and are really easy for stalkers to catch and pick off.
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you guys go ahead and play your little ravens... ill stick to the manly thing and build my cattlebruisers!
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i did it last game keeping 6 bases mining while the zerg barely had any.. got owned by ultras...
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On June 27 2013 06:59 buchaa wrote:
i did it last game keeping 6 bases mining while the zerg barely had any.. got owned by ultras...
Do you have the replay of that game? If you send it to djcb11hood@hotmail.com, Avilo will analyse it on Sunday. Just tune into www.twitch.tv/avilo.
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On May 07 2013 15:19 DemigodcelpH wrote:
If only mech could be the same way. The most gas intensive composition in the game.
Afaik VR/HT, BL/Winfestor, Pure Mass Muta, Skytoss and Skyterran are WAY more gasintensive.
like not even close.
Also for lategame MechvP and vZ Ravens are also a standard addition. Vs Broods and Tempests PDDs are defenitely necessary. vZ they are also required when Blinding Clouds go off on your Tanks vs Roach Hydra, to be able to secure your retreat with either pdds or hsm to force him to not follow you.
Ravens also add a free harassing capability to an otherwise very slow and static playstyle in mech.
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Adding Ravens to bio really does seem like a no-brainer. Once you get your upgrades with bio you tend to float a lot of gas. Ravens cost a lot of gas. Now that they've improved the raven and it isn't as easy to get them all fungaled(infestor change) this style should rock.
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Heaven help me if I ever make it to late game with Avilo and his ravens so crazy how effective they can be! Thanks for the guide.
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Thank you for the guide! This is probably above my skill level, but a good read nonetheless.
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On June 28 2013 22:20 Ctone23 wrote:
Thank you for the guide! This is probably above my skill level, but a good read nonetheless.
Oh I'm not so sure about that. Sure, in the lower leagues, players are going to have a harder time microing their ravens, but keep in mind that their opponents will also have more difficulty microing against seeker missiles, so it will probably balance out in the end.
Edit: What you'll probably find is that raven micro and anti-raven micro are skills that are picked up and mastered at different times, so there are probably some leagues where one is more powerful and then there are other leagues where the other prevails, and it kinda goes back and forth as you advance through the leagues.
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EPT
