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I think something that makes the build unique is the risk that it takes. In fact, it makes it more like builds that other races take, intentionally skimming on def for example to get a certain unit out more quickly.
What makes a build a build is more than not things like gas timings, hatch timings, upgrade timings, and unit pop timings. These timings get switched around based on what you scout, but it doesnt change the build, or what you're saying is the "core" of the build. It is what we saw in essence in the final match:
Had Leenock defended with strickly lings, yes he would have died. Did he? No.... He manipulated the build to protect himself from what he scouted, however, a "core" part of the build is, in fact, relying on pure ling/queen/spine until you get ultras. It is what makes the build the build in essence because it is what allows for all of the fast upgrade timings that they use.
So, in essence, we are arguing the same thing. Only, I am trying to point out that that gimmicky part of relying on lings is actually the beauty of the build. Will it need to be thrown out to survive at times, yes, definitely. Will you build other gas units if your ling play is going quite well that game? No...
I honestly think that the power of 1-1 2-2 speedlings off 3-4 hatch (one macro) has been under-emphasized here.
Finally, i dont dislike the use of the word "reaction", I am only trying to emphasize how differently the word is used depending on what race you are talking about. For Zerg play the word takes on a whole new meaning.
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On May 02 2013 05:45 vsportsguy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 04:49 Big J wrote:On May 02 2013 02:50 vsportsguy wrote:On May 02 2013 01:22 Qwyn wrote:
It's a gimmick. Are you seriously telling me that it's not? Look at how low eco he is. He gets his 3rd at 7:30! The most powerful moments of the whole tourney were not when he pushed with his ultras, but when he prepped muta tech in addition to infestation pit, and used an advantage he gained through positioning (Protoss uncertainty, unfamiliarity).
Massing ultras on 3 bases is an allin. You have no eco to do anything else. As much as you want to say that this strategy is going to be the next great thing in ZvP, it's really not. I'm not retarded - I haven't missed the point of this build at all. Don't blindside yourself into following the BO without deviation. Look at Leenock's strongest games with it - 3 out of 7 ZvPs. The build RELIES on Protoss fucking up (bad zealot hold position, bad sim-city) or being unprepared (and it is in response to a 21 Nexus). You saw the beginnings of how Protoss will shut it down (shit on it) in Naniwa's killer timings.
Did you happen to listen to Meta last night? There's some really smart dudes with more credentials than I who essentially said the exact same thing. Take the CORE of the build away, and you can use it off a 3 hatch base.
1. Spire and infestation pit. The threat of mutas is such a powerful psychological threat. The utility of these two buildings is probably greater than any other two in the game. With it you have all the tools you need to break a Protoss down.
2. Hive upon seeing third.
3. You have swarm hosts, another utility unit, at your disposal if P should do an allin timing.
You are playing low-eco with this build. Staying even with the P is low eco. 48 drones until 9:00 is low eco. It is "safer" than 3 hatch openings, yet in doing it you sacrifice a game winning advantage for faster upgrades. Every timing that was pulled off could be done FASTER, more efficiently, and with more "OOMPH" behind it from a 3 hatch base. Relying on counter attacks to keep you alive until 16:00 ultras, against all the shit P could possibly do against you (timings which will only get more powerful) - is a gimmick.
Just think long term. Try to extrapolate WHAT made the build powerful. In a couple weeks it will be completely outdated. It's a specific, allin response to a gateway expand. Think about the core (which is what has got me really fucking excited).
(Of course JD beat Naniwa 8 times in a row with it in practice - he had probably never seen it before, - it highlights the obvious weaknesses of 21N (later upgrades), and it's JD FFS). It's catching on more and more as we speak. People are doing it against non gateway openings and winning all the time, it's not reserved for gateway first openings. Your timings show me just how unaware you are. With crisp timings, the first ultras are out by 14:00, not 16:00. There's no reason that you can't take a 3rd at 6:00 (44 supply) just before starting 1/1. That's something I have been doing. Leenock has usually been opting to get an extra round of drones up to 56 supply and getting his 2nd gas before taking his 3rd. Leenock started his 4th at 11:20 in his game vs hero. Is that where you truly think this game is right now? If you don't get as many drones as possible, that you're all-in? I hate to break it to you, but gone are the days where you drone straight to 80 drones. And you're not even with the protoss in drones. Against hero, Leenock was at 48 drones to 37 probes at the 7:35 mark. 54 to 41 at the 8:40ish mark, and Leenock had lost a few drones to oracle harassment as well. I suggest you get your facts right. All I can do is watch high level games, and try the build on my own. And everywhere I see this build, I see success. If you do this against a forge first and the Protoss just hits a plain gateway timing with +1 or +2 or a sentryheavy push like sentry/immortal you are in an incredible amount of trouble when you rely on pure ling. That build is relying on gateway expands, stargate builds or plainly a defensive/reactive Protoss. However if you scout something else like a gateway allin and you actually know your timings, you should be able to go into a 3base roach or 2base swarm host play instead. It works better vs gateway expands because of the huge upgrade advantage, but people act like it's totally unviable against forge first. I haven't seen or experienced a sentry immortal all-in vs this build yet. You do have 1/1 lings and extra gas. If you can get to hydras in time, you literally have the perfect counter to sentry immortal. I don't know if the timings allow for it or not. Against gateway all-ins speedlings and spines work better than anything else that early. Gateway all-ins are pretty bad nowadays and this build is much safer than 3 hatch is against it, so I don't understand your argument. I don't know why people hate this build, the biggest weakness is in the 12:00 to 14:00 mark before ultras are out. Even the commentators commend protoss' for doing 2 base colossi pushes. They say it counters the fast ultra build and it will be very hard for the zerg to hold. In theory, it should be a huge weakness: zergs are stuck on lings for the core of their army at a relatively late point in the game. However we've seen zergs defend 2 base colossi pushes time and time again.
you can't spine up 2 entrances against a gateway allin. If you rely on spines it comes down to the Protoss denying your third and then transitioning and expanding, while you sit behind spines with no strong army to deny his third and not enough larva to continue your zergling play. Really, those builds (minus the ultralisk transition) have been around in WoL already - around the time Stephano style got popular in ZvT people experimented with double upgrade lings in ZvP - and we are not figuering them from scratch.
That doesn't mean that I think they are bad... hell, I'm playing such a build (with 3bases) myself these days. All I'm saying is that you have to be careful and you may need to branch out of the mass zerglings if you scout certain builds from an opponent. (and yeah, you may hold a gateway allin with it, but I don't think it's a very reliable way to do so)
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Hey just a protoss giving the p side on this build. I just ran into this on ladder. I opened gateway first naniwa style and pressured the nat while taking a third and getting a stargate up. I must admit I played pretty poorly but since it was akilon wastes I was able to get my third up really easily. At this point I had built up about 4 phx, went up to about 6-7 at most but scouted the ultra while my robo was building. Was able to easily chrono out double immo, void rays and archons. I was wayyyy behind on upgrades because I'm bad but I still easily rolled his army and won handily.
My point is I don't think you can do this build on maps with an easily defendable third.
Also, I don't think pure lings or ling bane is a good way to hold gateway or +1 gateway timings. Even if you hold it chances are it has done a ton of (indirect?) damage - or at least more than making a few roaches would have.
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The core of this build is really good, I think in large part the problem is that it's really difficult for protoss to know what to make against this.
Ling styles always creep me out because so many things can be coming. Muta's are scary now and only phoenix makes me comfortable against them but phoenix are too useless against ling/ultra in combat so I prefer not making many. They are also useless in securing a third. The big weakness are timing attacks with good forcefields but by the time I'm sure it's this style that window has usually passed.
I guess the best way for protoss to go against it is going some with some voidrays. It forces hydra a bit and are good against ultra's and even so when they are not making them. It's the only tech that somewhat deals with all scary options (muta, swarmhosts and ultra) that can follow this.
There probably are some riskless timings with sentries or +1 that can punish this style of play but that can still recall and continue into a macro game if they didn;t skip roach/hydra. I haven't seen any reliable use of these though by pro's, naniwa got close but I don't like this gateway opening which imo feels inefficient since you usually want a forge and cannon anyway to move out for a timing. And if you get them anyway, why not just do the more economic opening of starting with it..
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Life just cleaned Parting up with this, even against a ffe in game 1.
Edit: He just did something interesting game 2, started doing the mass upgrade style again, but when he was under attack he cancelled his 3rd and stayed on lair. Even after rebuilding his third he didn't saturate it, instead massing ling/infestor with 2/2 upgrades.
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On April 29 2013 12:20 IcemanAsi wrote:
I have to say I saw the last day of the tornument where both JD and Leenock went for this style and I really didn't like it that much. The build seemed to have major vulnrabilites in both early game timings and before the ultras pop, it seemed to rely on protoss making a mistake and losing a lot of units to mid game lings or being too passive and ending up on 3 base versus 5+ situation where zerg wins by attrition.
Perhaps I'm underestimating 2/2 lings versus the lower upgrade protoss army but it seemed to me that every win I saw with this strat was due to some major mistakes on the protoss side.
I take it back. 2/2 lings against Protoss with inferior upgrades are insane and pre-hive timing is held with infestors.
Also upgraded ultras are sick.
Amazing build.
#LifeVsParting
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Does anyone else find it funny how a week ago if you said you were rushing to ultras people would say "you need 4 base to go ultras". It's nice to see people realizing how potent rushing to hive tech is. In terms of cost efficiency ultras are behind only broodlords and swarmhosts for obvious reasons.
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On May 03 2013 00:40 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
Does anyone else find it funny how a week ago if you said you were rushing to ultras people would say "you need 4 base to go ultras". It's nice to see people realizing how potent rushing to hive tech is. In terms of cost efficiency ultras are behind only broodlords and swarmhosts for obvious reasons.
yeah and those people obviously have never read breadth of gameplay, watched 2011-2012 Stephano style ZvT or Leenock's 3base Broodlord/Infestor play against Protoss.
They mix up cause and effect... the effect of not rushing expensive units and upgrades is that in order to mine from 2-3bases you need to take a 4th as your main and natural run dry. So you need a 4th base if you "just happen" to go for lategame tech. But if you rush for such techs, the "full economy" that the first 3bases grant is enough.
Why you believe that ultras are less costefficient than broodlords I can't understand... Mass longrange Broodlord obviously is stronger than mass melee ultralisk in most scenarios. But 4-8ultras can do so much more than 4-8broodlords. And swarmhosts are extremly costinefficient, unless you get in a perfect siege position on a crucial base.
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United States4883 Posts
On May 03 2013 01:09 Big J wrote:
Why you believe that ultras are less costefficient than broodlords I can't understand... Mass longrange Broodlord obviously is stronger than mass melee ultralisk in most scenarios. But 4-8ultras can do so much more than 4-8broodlords. And swarmhosts are extremly costinefficient, unless you get in a perfect siege position on a crucial base.
...What?? They spawn free units....
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On May 03 2013 01:09 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 00:40 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
Does anyone else find it funny how a week ago if you said you were rushing to ultras people would say "you need 4 base to go ultras". It's nice to see people realizing how potent rushing to hive tech is. In terms of cost efficiency ultras are behind only broodlords and swarmhosts for obvious reasons. yeah and those people obviously have never read breadth of gameplay, watched 2011-2012 Stephano style ZvT or Leenock's 3base Broodlord/Infestor play against Protoss. They mix up cause and effect... the effect of not rushing expensive units and upgrades is that in order to mine from 2-3bases you need to take a 4th as your main and natural run dry. So you need a 4th base if you "just happen" to go for lategame tech. But if you rush for such techs, the "full economy" that the first 3bases grant is enough. Why you believe that ultras are less costefficient than broodlords I can't understand... Mass longrange Broodlord obviously is stronger than mass melee ultralisk in most scenarios. But 4-8ultras can do so much more than 4-8broodlords. And swarmhosts are extremly costinefficient, unless you get in a perfect siege position on a crucial base.
When an ultra is dpsing it's getting hit so there's only a certain ammount it can do no matter the situation. That's not always true of swarmhosts and broodlords. And the ultralisks collision size makes it inefficient in tight places. Nevertheless its still a beast.
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Thank you Life, for proving absolutely everything I said before. This build works fine against FFE. It is a completely viable build at even the highest levels of play.
I think it's so funny how everybody theory crafts: they give reasons why this build is weak, people call it a gimmick and an all-in, and they say it can only be used vs gateway first and will get crushed by forge first.They make all of these statements with no proof whatsoever. People forget to look at the most important factor. THE GAMES.
The best zerg in the world just beat the best protoss in the world with this build, and people are going to comment saying that the only reason Life was was because Parting played horribly.
Also, people make too big of a deal about things that ultimately are not that important. For example, Parting delayed Life's natural for over a minute! Normally it goes down at 16 supply around 2:45 or so. Parting was able get his nexus, forge, and pylon before blocking Life's expansion. In return, Life didn't get his hatch down until 4:00 and 24 supply!
When people see that, the general consensus is that Life is really really far behind. But actually, it's not that big of a deal. He had to make 6 lings instead of 2 or 4, he lost some larvae from the hatch being completed later, and he will be over saturated at his main for a little bit. That's it... In the end, it did take away from life's economy early on, but it was a very very small factor in the outcome of the game. If it didn't affect Life that much, then it's not effecting you that much either.
The same goes for the differences between a gateway expand and a FFE (among a host of other things). The differences are not all that great. FFE usually gets earlier upgrades and maybe 1 or 2 more probes because of the earlier Nexus. Gateway expand gets faster tech. The difference is extremely small by the time you get into the mid/late game.
We all agree that fast ultras is better vs gateway first. But do you really believe that fast ultras is only viable against gateway first when the difference between gateway expand and FFE is so small? It's not even a big enough difference to dissuade the best players in the world from using the build, let alone your average masters player.
EDIT: Game is here if anybody wants to watch.
http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs1/vod/80085
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On May 03 2013 01:55 ManiacTheZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:09 Big J wrote:On May 03 2013 00:40 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
Does anyone else find it funny how a week ago if you said you were rushing to ultras people would say "you need 4 base to go ultras". It's nice to see people realizing how potent rushing to hive tech is. In terms of cost efficiency ultras are behind only broodlords and swarmhosts for obvious reasons. yeah and those people obviously have never read breadth of gameplay, watched 2011-2012 Stephano style ZvT or Leenock's 3base Broodlord/Infestor play against Protoss. They mix up cause and effect... the effect of not rushing expensive units and upgrades is that in order to mine from 2-3bases you need to take a 4th as your main and natural run dry. So you need a 4th base if you "just happen" to go for lategame tech. But if you rush for such techs, the "full economy" that the first 3bases grant is enough. Why you believe that ultras are less costefficient than broodlords I can't understand... Mass longrange Broodlord obviously is stronger than mass melee ultralisk in most scenarios. But 4-8ultras can do so much more than 4-8broodlords. And swarmhosts are extremly costinefficient, unless you get in a perfect siege position on a crucial base. When an ultra is dpsing it's getting hit so there's only a certain ammount it can do no matter the situation. That's not always true of swarmhosts and broodlords. And the ultralisks collision size makes it inefficient in tight places. Nevertheless its still a beast.
well, few broodlords are just getting slaughterd by anything in equal cost (like stalkers, marines, hydras), while Ultras don't.
It is very situational dependend when you want ultras and when broodlords, but generally, ultras fare much much better against nearly anything for as long as the opponent does not have a strong maxed army. Ultras are kind of a "cheap unit killer", that shines whenever your opponent doesn't field the heavy guns.
On May 03 2013 01:19 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:09 Big J wrote:
Why you believe that ultras are less costefficient than broodlords I can't understand... Mass longrange Broodlord obviously is stronger than mass melee ultralisk in most scenarios. But 4-8ultras can do so much more than 4-8broodlords. And swarmhosts are extremly costinefficient, unless you get in a perfect siege position on a crucial base. ...What?? They spawn free units....
What, they cost a ton and lose an amove battle against nearly any equal cost composition in the game? Is that what you call costefficient? When you lose the battle against equal cost of enemy army?
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United States4883 Posts
On May 03 2013 02:52 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:55 ManiacTheZealot wrote:On May 03 2013 01:09 Big J wrote:On May 03 2013 00:40 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
Does anyone else find it funny how a week ago if you said you were rushing to ultras people would say "you need 4 base to go ultras". It's nice to see people realizing how potent rushing to hive tech is. In terms of cost efficiency ultras are behind only broodlords and swarmhosts for obvious reasons. yeah and those people obviously have never read breadth of gameplay, watched 2011-2012 Stephano style ZvT or Leenock's 3base Broodlord/Infestor play against Protoss. They mix up cause and effect... the effect of not rushing expensive units and upgrades is that in order to mine from 2-3bases you need to take a 4th as your main and natural run dry. So you need a 4th base if you "just happen" to go for lategame tech. But if you rush for such techs, the "full economy" that the first 3bases grant is enough. Why you believe that ultras are less costefficient than broodlords I can't understand... Mass longrange Broodlord obviously is stronger than mass melee ultralisk in most scenarios. But 4-8ultras can do so much more than 4-8broodlords. And swarmhosts are extremly costinefficient, unless you get in a perfect siege position on a crucial base. When an ultra is dpsing it's getting hit so there's only a certain ammount it can do no matter the situation. That's not always true of swarmhosts and broodlords. And the ultralisks collision size makes it inefficient in tight places. Nevertheless its still a beast. well, few broodlords are just getting slaughterd by anything in equal cost (like stalkers, marines, hydras), while Ultras don't. It is very situational dependend when you want ultras and when broodlords, but generally, ultras fare much much better against nearly anything for as long as the opponent does not have a strong maxed army. Ultras are kind of a "cheap unit killer", that shines whenever your opponent doesn't field the heavy guns. Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:19 SC2John wrote:On May 03 2013 01:09 Big J wrote:
Why you believe that ultras are less costefficient than broodlords I can't understand... Mass longrange Broodlord obviously is stronger than mass melee ultralisk in most scenarios. But 4-8ultras can do so much more than 4-8broodlords. And swarmhosts are extremly costinefficient, unless you get in a perfect siege position on a crucial base. ...What?? They spawn free units.... What, they cost a ton and lose an amove battle against nearly any equal cost composition in the game? Is that what you call costefficient? When you lose the battle against equal cost of enemy army?
I don't want to continue this argument too much and derail the thread. But seriously, that's the dumbest analysis of cost efficiency ever lol. Perhaps in an A-move situation (on an open field), ultras are by far the most "cost-efficient", but in any REAL WORLD analysis that includes army compositions, terrain, and micro, swarm hosts are the most cost-efficient unit in the game. Ultralisks are throwaway units to thin out your opponent's army most of the time.
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I saw Leenock using the queens in his push with ultralisks and I just want to emphasize how important that is. Ultras are so so so much better with queens. I would prefer 1 queen and an ultralisk than 2 ultralisks. Being able to transfuse the ultras is key to the push. I would even make more queens in the midgame instead of zerglings depending on the map and how P decides to play it out. Of course having a solid ling base is good, but squeezing out queens so that you have about 7 with your push is amazing.
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If you're trying to do a sneak attack on me and tell me that I was wrong all along - I never said that the concepts behind the build weren't fucking awesome, lol. I just thing that the build order isn't optimal.
And I wouldn't think that Parting would have the knowledge to defeat this build either, considering that it has only been in play at a high level for a week now.
Markwerf, I'm sure that people will begin to adapt their styles to do what they did a year and a half ago against mass ling styles. But most importantly, there is no reason why P should not be rushing double upgrades as well. That will remove a lot of the edge.
I will say that it is certainly more entertaining (back and forth) - but especially against an FFE - I can't help but think that eventually P are going to start going to start getting faster upgrades to equalize.
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On May 03 2013 03:19 Nezi wrote:
I saw Leenock using the queens in his push with ultralisks and I just want to emphasize how important that is. Ultras are so so so much better with queens. I would prefer 1 queen and an ultralisk than 2 ultralisks. Being able to transfuse the ultras is key to the push. I would even make more queens in the midgame instead of zerglings depending on the map and how P decides to play it out. Of course having a solid ling base is good, but squeezing out queens so that you have about 7 with your push is amazing.
I would say the next step if the game last a little longer is to add a little bit of viper in it, and maybe research neural parasite for the infestor.
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I agree, neural parasite has a home in this build because ultras force very parasitable units. Id probably forgo the glands (i forget the upgrade name) in favor.
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On May 03 2013 02:45 vsportsguy wrote:
I think it's so funny how everybody theory crafts
I was laughing the whole time as well. As if a pro zerg would scout a super early 2base collosus den with chronod forge then start a hive....
Pros don't just mindlessly go through build orders like some people think they do. They actually scout and adjust appropriately. That is one of the many things that separate them from us.
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EPT
