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If the build has been posted, pls remove the thread, however i did a search and was not able to find it so I went ahead and extracted the build from Leenock's first game against Hero:
Leenock vs Liquid`Her0 (game 1) (9:02)
Two base openers is not something I have done a lot of experimentation with, so I was particularly interested in the games where this build was used.
The build:
15 pool
16 Hatch
15 Overlord
16 Queen
18 Ling *2
21 Gas
20 Queen
22 Overlord
*Queue up 3rd queen when the second is around 1/2 to a 2/3 finished.*
34 Overlord
100 gas - Speed
42 Overlord
44 Gas (2nd)
46 Double Evo (at around 150 gas)
~56 1-1 (melee)
~56 Expo
*When 1-1 is half finished he begins Lair*
*When Lair is half finished he begins gasses 3 and 4*
~75 Macro Hatch
*When the Lair finishes, he begins his Infestation Pit / 2-2 / and his Hive (all dependent on the availability of minerals rather than gas)*
*When he begins his Hive, he begins gasses 5 and 6*
*When the Hive finishes, the Ultralisk Cavern goes down, 3-3 and adrenal glands are queued up when 2-2 finish.*
He kills Hero at 16:00 with a composition of 5 - 7 Ultralisks, 6 Queens, 4 Infestors, and a spatter of lings.
It is important to note that Leenock floods lings around 30 food worth before the Ultras come out either to stay alive or attempt a run-by, a move that consequentially won Leenock at least a few games alone during the tournament.
Hope this helps anyone who may have been looking fr the build order. Please comment if there were other variations. Again this was taken from the game linked above.
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I have to say I saw the last day of the tornument where both JD and Leenock went for this style and I really didn't like it that much. The build seemed to have major vulnrabilites in both early game timings and before the ultras pop, it seemed to rely on protoss making a mistake and losing a lot of units to mid game lings or being too passive and ending up on 3 base versus 5+ situation where zerg wins by attrition.
Perhaps I'm underestimating 2/2 lings versus the lower upgrade protoss army but it seemed to me that every win I saw with this strat was due to some major mistakes on the protoss side.
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this built doesn't allow u to do silly mistakes or losing much drones either
more importantly not missing a single larva injects
this is why leenock so good with this built
loved this built but never be able to replicate it
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On April 29 2013 12:24 Azurues wrote:
this built doesn't allow u to do silly mistakes or losing much drones either
more importantly not missing a single larva injects
this is why leenock so good with this built
loved this built but never be able to replicate it
You should try to replicate it, why not? So, he's Leenock and he doesn't miss an inject, you won't being playing against LQ~Her0 either..
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On April 29 2013 12:20 IcemanAsi wrote:
I have to say I saw the last day of the tornument where both JD and Leenock went for this style and I really didn't like it that much. The build seemed to have major vulnrabilites in both early game timings and before the ultras pop, it seemed to rely on protoss making a mistake and losing a lot of units to mid game lings or being too passive and ending up on 3 base versus 5+ situation where zerg wins by attrition.
Perhaps I'm underestimating 2/2 lings versus the lower upgrade protoss army but it seemed to me that every win I saw with this strat was due to some major mistakes on the protoss side.
Actually this is a good build if you realize that its a three base allin with very tight timings. It basically stops protoss from going air since the lings will just flood the protoss base due to lack of a ground army in early game.
However if the protoss survives the first attack wave and gets the 3rd base up and gets a mix for a few archons, immortals and colossus in the army the its pretty much gg. This does not allow for a transition to roach, hydra, viper or broodlords. Since its so tight, the 4th gets delayed which makes it hard to get a good economy also to battle the deathball.
This was shown when Jaedong failed to kill Naniwa and naniwa just marched across the map and killed him. The possibility of transitions is so slim that Jaedong built swarm hosts which are pretty garbage units.
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On April 29 2013 12:52 WickedBit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 12:20 IcemanAsi wrote:
I have to say I saw the last day of the tornument where both JD and Leenock went for this style and I really didn't like it that much. The build seemed to have major vulnrabilites in both early game timings and before the ultras pop, it seemed to rely on protoss making a mistake and losing a lot of units to mid game lings or being too passive and ending up on 3 base versus 5+ situation where zerg wins by attrition.
Perhaps I'm underestimating 2/2 lings versus the lower upgrade protoss army but it seemed to me that every win I saw with this strat was due to some major mistakes on the protoss side. Actually this is a good build if you realize that its a three base allin with very tight timings. It basically stops protoss from going air since the lings will just flood the protoss base due to lack of a ground army in early game. However if the protoss survives the first attack wave and gets the 3rd base up and gets a mix for a few archons, immortals and colossus in the army the its pretty much gg. This does not allow for a transition to roach, hydra, viper or broodlords. Since its so tight, the 4th gets delayed which makes it hard to get a good economy also to battle the deathball. This was shown when Jaedong failed to kill Naniwa and naniwa just marched across the map and killed him. The possibility of transitions is so slim that Jaedong built swarm hosts which are pretty garbage units.
Although I agree that this build is hard to transition out of if you don't do damage, swarm hosts are the only thing that keeps zerg alive in late game ZvP and are most definitely not a "garbage" unit.
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On April 29 2013 14:02 BasicBarcode wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 12:52 WickedBit wrote:On April 29 2013 12:20 IcemanAsi wrote:
I have to say I saw the last day of the tornument where both JD and Leenock went for this style and I really didn't like it that much. The build seemed to have major vulnrabilites in both early game timings and before the ultras pop, it seemed to rely on protoss making a mistake and losing a lot of units to mid game lings or being too passive and ending up on 3 base versus 5+ situation where zerg wins by attrition.
Perhaps I'm underestimating 2/2 lings versus the lower upgrade protoss army but it seemed to me that every win I saw with this strat was due to some major mistakes on the protoss side. Actually this is a good build if you realize that its a three base allin with very tight timings. It basically stops protoss from going air since the lings will just flood the protoss base due to lack of a ground army in early game. However if the protoss survives the first attack wave and gets the 3rd base up and gets a mix for a few archons, immortals and colossus in the army the its pretty much gg. This does not allow for a transition to roach, hydra, viper or broodlords. Since its so tight, the 4th gets delayed which makes it hard to get a good economy also to battle the deathball. This was shown when Jaedong failed to kill Naniwa and naniwa just marched across the map and killed him. The possibility of transitions is so slim that Jaedong built swarm hosts which are pretty garbage units. Although I agree that this build is hard to transition out of if you don't do damage, swarm hosts are the only thing that keeps zerg alive in late game ZvP and are most definitely not a "garbage" unit.
I got to agree with BasicBarcode here, swarm hosts were the best call for a losing hand for Jaedong in that game. And they are definitively not a bad unit. Wait for about a month or two and you'll be seeing a lot of swarm hosts in GSL zvp. It's just not perfected yet, but If you watch Korean ladder streams you'll see they are used a lot.
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Swarm hosts are beasts indeed but not in small numbers like in JD's game. He should have brought some infestors imo.
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On April 29 2013 16:38 Karpfen wrote:
Swarm hosts are beasts indeed but not in small numbers like in JD's game. He should have brought some infestors imo.
He was drawing dead at that point anyway. I guess he was hoping that naniwa will play too passive and let him get out at least another wave or two of swarmhosts and then he might have had a chance. But naniwa knew it was time to attack.
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Beware of +1 attack gateway timings while doing this build. They chrono their +1 so it finishes before your armor. It's pretty much game over if you don't see it soon enough. Best response is roach warren. Panic response spinecrawlers. I've tried banelings against it without much success. Always check for a chronoboost on their forge.
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youre essentially rushing ultralisk tech (cmon, a 10 min hive?). keeping him busy with only mineral units by skipping units like roaches that require gas so he can tech up faster and get expensive upgrades is higher risk but higher reward. there are other solid builds out there that allow you to safely rush 3 3 and hive while using some tier 2 units to stay a live because we are all not leenock who can stay on lings all game and distract hero until u can get ultras out.
youve gotta realize had hero decided not to try to establish a third while teching to archons & immortals, he couldve flat out rolled leenock with just his zealot/collosus army because leenock had only 40~ lings all the way until the ultralisks came out.
apollo actually brings this up when hero scouts the build: does he push and kill him before the ultras come out, or try to get a third and tech up to counter them? in the end hero made the wrong choice.
anyone who tries to stay on only lings until ultras in zvp is going to have a bad time.
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Seems like it relies a lot on ling runbys for the mid game and the protoss making mistakes. I am not sure if this can actually hold against a strong 2-base colossus all-in since you basically rely on a bunch of upgraded lings which arent going to do all that much against forcefields+colossi until infestor/ultras are out.
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On April 29 2013 19:28 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
Beware of +1 attack gateway timings while doing this build. They chrono their +1 so it finishes before your armor. It's pretty much game over if you don't see it soon enough. Best response is roach warren. Panic response spinecrawlers. I've tried banelings against it without much success. Always check for a chronoboost on their forge.
this isn't really true, +1 attack timings are easy to defend if you're on 2 base, just make enough spines. Besides this kind of build where you get earlier lings and speed is good at denying proxy pylons.
Honestly I think the best against this build is just to get a third fast, with oracles/msc you can defend that quite easily against lings. By the time the ultra timing comes you can already have some voids and robo units mixed in with a decent sim city.
The problem is recognizing it I think, 2 base zerg always feels uneasy for me not knowing exactly what to do, especially since muta's are quite the threat.
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On April 29 2013 12:52 WickedBit wrote:
Actually this is a good build if you realize that its a three base allin with very tight timings. It basically stops protoss from going air since the lings will just flood the protoss base due to lack of a ground army in early game.
However if the protoss survives the first attack wave and gets the 3rd base up and gets a mix for a few archons, immortals and colossus in the army the its pretty much gg. This does not allow for a transition to roach, hydra, viper or broodlords. Since its so tight, the 4th gets delayed which makes it hard to get a good economy also to battle the deathball.
This was shown when Jaedong failed to kill Naniwa and naniwa just marched across the map and killed him. The possibility of transitions is so slim that Jaedong built swarm hosts which are pretty garbage units.
I agree that if the Protoss does manage to get a third (had one manage it really smoothly on Star Station with incredible sim city) and hits a 3 base timing it can get very nasty. Though it's not too hard to mix in some Blinding Cloud and/or Neural Parasite (which pairs very well with ultra's leading the charge) and that can completely change the battle.
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I actually really dislike this build. Considering that toss will always get +3 attack before zerg this build is really risky. If he scouts this build (which naniwa did after seeing fast doulbe evo he knew what was coming), you can counter it really easily. Immortals stalkers and especially archons do overwhelming damage to the ultras. That the lings are completely useless vs +3 archons is self explanatory. If protoss doesnt scout it and gets a too colo based army then yes, the build should work, but if you get scouted the protoss can easily adapt and beat it with ease.
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This sounds like a good strat for teamgames
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On April 29 2013 12:52 WickedBit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 12:20 IcemanAsi wrote:
I have to say I saw the last day of the tornument where both JD and Leenock went for this style and I really didn't like it that much. The build seemed to have major vulnrabilites in both early game timings and before the ultras pop, it seemed to rely on protoss making a mistake and losing a lot of units to mid game lings or being too passive and ending up on 3 base versus 5+ situation where zerg wins by attrition.
Perhaps I'm underestimating 2/2 lings versus the lower upgrade protoss army but it seemed to me that every win I saw with this strat was due to some major mistakes on the protoss side. Actually this is a good build if you realize that its a three base allin with very tight timings. It basically stops protoss from going air since the lings will just flood the protoss base due to lack of a ground army in early game. However if the protoss survives the first attack wave and gets the 3rd base up and gets a mix for a few archons, immortals and colossus in the army the its pretty much gg. This does not allow for a transition to roach, hydra, viper or broodlords. Since its so tight, the 4th gets delayed which makes it hard to get a good economy also to battle the deathball. This was shown when Jaedong failed to kill Naniwa and naniwa just marched across the map and killed him. The possibility of transitions is so slim that Jaedong built swarm hosts which are pretty garbage units.
I would be careful about assuming the toss can't go air. An Oracle or two is all a toss needs to prevent any ling runby. This hasn't caught on yet as evidenced by Naniwa being forced to cancel his 3rd nexus multiple times due to lings against JD. But had he built a single Oracle, the 3rd base would have been up 3 or 4 minutes earlier and the game wouldn't have even been close.
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On April 29 2013 23:34 onewaystyx wrote:
I actually really dislike this build. Considering that toss will always get +3 attack before zerg this build is really risky. If he scouts this build (which naniwa did after seeing fast doulbe evo he knew what was coming), you can counter it really easily. Immortals stalkers and especially archons do overwhelming damage to the ultras. That the lings are completely useless vs +3 archons is self explanatory. If protoss doesnt scout it and gets a too colo based army then yes, the build should work, but if you get scouted the protoss can easily adapt and beat it with ease.
stalkers do NOT do overwhelming damage to ultras, neither do archons, immortal count wont be very high due to the need of collossi production and templar tech in the midgame. if protoss could beat this with ease then why did hero, one of the better protoss on the planet have so little success?
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On April 29 2013 13:53 Just_a_Moth wrote:
Crazy zerg?
Ha, that's exactly what I thought it was. Well minus the mutas...still a really cool build.
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On April 29 2013 12:20 IcemanAsi wrote:
I have to say I saw the last day of the tornument where both JD and Leenock went for this style and I really didn't like it that much. The build seemed to have major vulnrabilites in both early game timings and before the ultras pop, it seemed to rely on protoss making a mistake and losing a lot of units to mid game lings or being too passive and ending up on 3 base versus 5+ situation where zerg wins by attrition.
Perhaps I'm underestimating 2/2 lings versus the lower upgrade protoss army but it seemed to me that every win I saw with this strat was due to some major mistakes on the protoss side.
I think you forgot what NaNiwa said on stage at dh. He said that JD beat him with this strat like 8-0 at the EG.TL House doing the same build each time. If it was easy counterable and relying on the Toss mistakes ,Naniwa would have corrected his mistakes and thus wouldn't have lost 8 times to this strat. I think it's quite a solid build atm.
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On April 30 2013 02:42 Freshpro59 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 12:20 IcemanAsi wrote:
I have to say I saw the last day of the tornument where both JD and Leenock went for this style and I really didn't like it that much. The build seemed to have major vulnrabilites in both early game timings and before the ultras pop, it seemed to rely on protoss making a mistake and losing a lot of units to mid game lings or being too passive and ending up on 3 base versus 5+ situation where zerg wins by attrition.
Perhaps I'm underestimating 2/2 lings versus the lower upgrade protoss army but it seemed to me that every win I saw with this strat was due to some major mistakes on the protoss side. I think you forgot what NaNiwa said on stage at dh. He said that JD beat him with this strat like 8-0 at the EG.TL House doing the same build each time. If it was easy counterable and relying on the Toss mistakes ,Naniwa would have corrected his mistakes and thus wouldn't have lost 8 times to this strat. I think it's quite a solid build atm.
I don't know, obvioulsy the build works and is being used by top players effectively but it seems really odd to me.
What's stopping protoss from going for a 2base collosus attack, forcing mad amounts of spines and lings and then reaclling and taking his third at the same time as the zerg who just went heavily into ling+spine?
So now we got protoss on three base against zerg on three base where the zerg has upgraded ultra ling against a collosus+immortal+archon composition on three base, which is game over.
I'm guessing the tech rush to ultras is just one option and maybe you can go into spire+spines like in one of the leenock/naniwa games, but if naniwa just reaclls after forcing the spines he's insanely ahead.
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Hey guys, I had written down the build also, and did my first attempts at it, here's what it looks like to me :
- 15 hatch
- 16 pool / gas
- @completion of pool - 2 Queens, +1 Queen at natural afterwards (total of 3 queens)
- @100 gas - Metabolic boost (leave 3 drones in gas)
Build 2-5 scouting lings for map control
- @200 gas - 2x evo chambers, start 1-1 melee & carapace
- @100 gas - Lair, and take 2nd gas ~~~~~ (benchmark : 7m30s)
Take 3rd expo, +2 Queens, Macro hatch in main, take 3rd and 4th gas
- @Completion of Lair - Infestor Nest ~~~~~ (benchmark : 9m20s, 1-1 is about finishing)
Make 10-15ish lings to deny small pushes and kill pylons
- @Completion of 1-1 upgrades - Start 2-2 upgrades ~~~~~ (benchmark : 9m50s)
Take 4th base
- @Completion of Infestor den - Start Hive ~~~~~ (benchmark : 10m15s)
Build 3 defensive infestors without upgrade
- @Completion of Hive - Adrenaline glands & Ultralisk Den ~~~~~ (benchmark : 12m30s)
- @Completion of 2-2 upgrades - Start 3-3 upgrades ~~~~~ (benchmark : 13m50s)
- @Completion of Ultralisk Den - Ultralisk carapace upgrade
- Pump Ultralisks ~~~~~ (benchmark : 14m00s)
Note that it's taken for granted that you are droning the hell out of all your larvas unless forced to do otherwise by the protoss, or feel that you need to make lings.
To summ things up, you're rushing to Ultralisks, all of your resources going into melee units. All of your gas goes in structures and upgrades excepted for those 3 infestors. The timings are pretty easy to track as it's simply a textbook example of teching chains up to Ultralisk; just gotta click things when the previous item finishes.
How can this work for non-GMs?
#1, Be aggressive with lings and have map control, you can't be caught with your pants down. Your lings are there to deny pushes/pylons/stall as long as possible with counterattacks.
#2, Protoss like to move out with sentries for their 1st push, if you can stall that push long enough, you should win; he'll normally have 1-2 immortals and will have switched to Colossus because he saw only lings all game.
#3, feel free to be reactive even though you're doing this build. If toss is going SkyToss, you might want to have more infestors or make a spire. #3, Creepspread the hell out of the map, it helps ultras a LOT and will save you if you have to defend with banelings.
My remarks regarding this build / what I learned through practice :
1) It's hard at first to get the timings, mainly because I don't know the build by heart yet. As a result, my Ultras arrive around 16 mins and the toss is already attacking me and I have only lings... Which sucks.
2) You float a lot of minerals unless you're real good at taking bases and hitting all injects and making a million lings.
3) Based on the first 2 observations, I did 2 things : #1, dump minerals in more lings and build many static defenses (i.e.: spines or spores, depending on what toss is making). But help A LOT in stalling the engagements. #2, if you're behind in your build timings, make a baneling nest and upgrade banes speed, it helps so much to stop midgame pushes.
I think that's all for now 
1st try : http://drop.sc/329055
2nd try : http://drop.sc/329056
3rd try : http://drop.sc/329057 ~~~~~ Added baneling nest, forced to react in mass mutas
4th try : http://drop.sc/329058
5th try : http://drop.sc/329059 ~~~~~ Best example so far (Ultras out at 15 mins, 1 min behind Leenock's timing, which is awesome... Also added banelings and spines to stall toss' push)
If you don't like replays, they're all on my stream's channel VODs : games of April 28 2013.
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Hatch first against protoss in ladder ? :o it's very risky ...
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The hatch first was a meta gaming move vs hero
He thought he would gateway first.
Also. He does not blindly go for ultra. The toss getting a third is the trigger to leenock getting hive --> ultra.
Remember the last game vs naniwa? nani stayed on two bases for a 2 base colli timing.
Leenock scouted it, made a spire. made corruptors 2.2 lings. and many spines. off 3 bases.
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this build is awesome im using top master na and eu and just need be annoying with zerlings deny 3rd base and making a lot of harras when ultras pop up is gg
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I was so excited to try to the build that when I got put against a Terran I did it anyway  Seems decent enough.
Even though i was forced into making lots of banes, and a few SH (mech push, kinda nice to have that early Ipit) I still got the ultra cavern down just after 14 min, and my hive was done a while before that. Since it was vs terran I did a gasless 4 queen, and I didn't get 3-3 in time (or really at all :/ ), but had I not had to make gas units I would have. I was winging it, so I put up some buildings blind.
Diamond level play
http://drop.sc/329182
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I think it's an extremely risky build and should only be used reactionary, not every game. It is quite fun though I have to say =)
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On April 30 2013 11:50 Emzeeshady wrote:
Leenock doesn't do this very often. This was a reactionary play and is in no way a build of his.
If u want a legit Ultra build vs Protoss watch Stephano's games. He went all ling with fast upgrades into quick Ultra basically every game vs Toss.
He did it 1 out of 2 games against Hero. He did it 2 out of 5 games against Naniwa. He won all of those games. And yes, this is a blind build. He starts 1/1 before the protoss goes down any significant tech route. However, there are variations in the amount of lings he produces and how quickly he goes for hive.
For example, in the last game against Naniwa, he scouted a 2 base colossi all-in, so he delayed his infestation pit and opted for a spire. He went ling, corrupter, queen, and spines to defend the push. After he defended the push he went for hive tech. His ultras were out in time to defend Naniwa's followup push: archon immortal.
This is an amazing build. 2 base all-ins will be tough to defend with just lings and spines, but when your ultra's pop you have a VERY early timing where you will be on 3/3 with ultra, crackling, infestor, queen. At the 14-15 min mark, that combo seems unbeatable.
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On April 30 2013 04:19 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 02:42 Freshpro59 wrote:On April 29 2013 12:20 IcemanAsi wrote:
I have to say I saw the last day of the tornument where both JD and Leenock went for this style and I really didn't like it that much. The build seemed to have major vulnrabilites in both early game timings and before the ultras pop, it seemed to rely on protoss making a mistake and losing a lot of units to mid game lings or being too passive and ending up on 3 base versus 5+ situation where zerg wins by attrition.
Perhaps I'm underestimating 2/2 lings versus the lower upgrade protoss army but it seemed to me that every win I saw with this strat was due to some major mistakes on the protoss side. I think you forgot what NaNiwa said on stage at dh. He said that JD beat him with this strat like 8-0 at the EG.TL House doing the same build each time. If it was easy counterable and relying on the Toss mistakes ,Naniwa would have corrected his mistakes and thus wouldn't have lost 8 times to this strat. I think it's quite a solid build atm. I don't know, obvioulsy the build works and is being used by top players effectively but it seems really odd to me. What's stopping protoss from going for a 2base collosus attack, forcing mad amounts of spines and lings and then reaclling and taking his third at the same time as the zerg who just went heavily into ling+spine? So now we got protoss on three base against zerg on three base where the zerg has upgraded ultra ling against a collosus+immortal+archon composition on three base, which is game over. I'm guessing the tech rush to ultras is just one option and maybe you can go into spire+spines like in one of the leenock/naniwa games, but if naniwa just reaclls after forcing the spines he's insanely ahead.
Naniwa tried a 2 bases colossus last game against Leenock, he just put a spire and made a round of corruptor when protoss moves out.
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On April 30 2013 22:34 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 04:19 IcemanAsi wrote:On April 30 2013 02:42 Freshpro59 wrote:On April 29 2013 12:20 IcemanAsi wrote:
I have to say I saw the last day of the tornument where both JD and Leenock went for this style and I really didn't like it that much. The build seemed to have major vulnrabilites in both early game timings and before the ultras pop, it seemed to rely on protoss making a mistake and losing a lot of units to mid game lings or being too passive and ending up on 3 base versus 5+ situation where zerg wins by attrition.
Perhaps I'm underestimating 2/2 lings versus the lower upgrade protoss army but it seemed to me that every win I saw with this strat was due to some major mistakes on the protoss side. I think you forgot what NaNiwa said on stage at dh. He said that JD beat him with this strat like 8-0 at the EG.TL House doing the same build each time. If it was easy counterable and relying on the Toss mistakes ,Naniwa would have corrected his mistakes and thus wouldn't have lost 8 times to this strat. I think it's quite a solid build atm. I don't know, obvioulsy the build works and is being used by top players effectively but it seems really odd to me. What's stopping protoss from going for a 2base collosus attack, forcing mad amounts of spines and lings and then reaclling and taking his third at the same time as the zerg who just went heavily into ling+spine? So now we got protoss on three base against zerg on three base where the zerg has upgraded ultra ling against a collosus+immortal+archon composition on three base, which is game over. I'm guessing the tech rush to ultras is just one option and maybe you can go into spire+spines like in one of the leenock/naniwa games, but if naniwa just reaclls after forcing the spines he's insanely ahead. Naniwa tried a 2 bases colossus last game against Leenock, he just put a spire and made a round of corruptor when protoss moves out.
Yes, and Naniwa tried breaking it when he should have just recalled after forcing the spines and taken a third. I think.
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On April 30 2013 23:39 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 22:34 Vanadiel wrote:On April 30 2013 04:19 IcemanAsi wrote:On April 30 2013 02:42 Freshpro59 wrote:On April 29 2013 12:20 IcemanAsi wrote:
I have to say I saw the last day of the tornument where both JD and Leenock went for this style and I really didn't like it that much. The build seemed to have major vulnrabilites in both early game timings and before the ultras pop, it seemed to rely on protoss making a mistake and losing a lot of units to mid game lings or being too passive and ending up on 3 base versus 5+ situation where zerg wins by attrition.
Perhaps I'm underestimating 2/2 lings versus the lower upgrade protoss army but it seemed to me that every win I saw with this strat was due to some major mistakes on the protoss side. I think you forgot what NaNiwa said on stage at dh. He said that JD beat him with this strat like 8-0 at the EG.TL House doing the same build each time. If it was easy counterable and relying on the Toss mistakes ,Naniwa would have corrected his mistakes and thus wouldn't have lost 8 times to this strat. I think it's quite a solid build atm. I don't know, obvioulsy the build works and is being used by top players effectively but it seems really odd to me. What's stopping protoss from going for a 2base collosus attack, forcing mad amounts of spines and lings and then reaclling and taking his third at the same time as the zerg who just went heavily into ling+spine? So now we got protoss on three base against zerg on three base where the zerg has upgraded ultra ling against a collosus+immortal+archon composition on three base, which is game over. I'm guessing the tech rush to ultras is just one option and maybe you can go into spire+spines like in one of the leenock/naniwa games, but if naniwa just reaclls after forcing the spines he's insanely ahead. Naniwa tried a 2 bases colossus last game against Leenock, he just put a spire and made a round of corruptor when protoss moves out. Yes, and Naniwa tried breaking it when he should have just recalled after forcing the spines and taken a third. I think.
Well forcing spine is not that big of a deal when is on 3 bases and enough drone, if he had recalled and tried to secure a third, Leenock would had enough time to make a 4th base and hit with a maxed army on Ultralisk before the third base of Naniwa really kicks in.
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I've done it a lot with my teammates, it's biggest strength is the upgrades. That being said, you do this build against gateway expand, not forge expand.
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Northern Ireland25035 Posts
On April 30 2013 00:34 dunkincrsip wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 23:34 onewaystyx wrote:
I actually really dislike this build. Considering that toss will always get +3 attack before zerg this build is really risky. If he scouts this build (which naniwa did after seeing fast doulbe evo he knew what was coming), you can counter it really easily. Immortals stalkers and especially archons do overwhelming damage to the ultras. That the lings are completely useless vs +3 archons is self explanatory. If protoss doesnt scout it and gets a too colo based army then yes, the build should work, but if you get scouted the protoss can easily adapt and beat it with ease. stalkers do NOT do overwhelming damage to ultras, neither do archons, immortal count wont be very high due to the need of collossi production and templar tech in the midgame. if protoss could beat this with ease then why did hero, one of the better protoss on the planet have so little success?
I'm convinced HerO would have won that game on Whirlwind if it wasn't for the runby, he looked to have a good counter-build but screwed up and deservedly lost.
It's a good build by the looks of it, but it's a pretty new style so I'd be interested to see what adjustments Toss make to deal with it.
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Artosis is doing his new show, cant remember the name or have a link, on this build. If someone has a link or information on that show, pls post it.
Also if someone has a way of making the build in the OP more legible, easier to follow pls say. Someone else wrote the build down nicely, although one thing i would change is the evo timing. It's not a big diff, but if you start them at 200 gas your 1-1 are actually 20 - 30 seconds slower which can be .... well big i guess.
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I don't think this build is that solid. It seems sort of gimmicky. If Protoss pushes out with 2-3 collosus and range you will not be able to hold with just lings/spines. I think maybe transitioning from roach/ling into a tad later ultras is more safe.
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I really don't like this build at all. Almost every Zerg I have played has been doing it and most of them are completely falling apart to any sort of pressure in the early game, even crappy stuff like 4gate with msc since they are running on such a shoe-string defence of only lings and queens. It seems to rely more on Protoss making mistakes in the midgame than anything (accidentally splitting army because of pathing. Not paying attention to army, moving out in the open so you can be surrounded). Playing an upgrade-oriented style with a focus on immortal/archon/zealot and defensively expanding seems to work quite well against it since this build is essentially an all-in because of how many corners you have to cut to do it properly.
It's just another flavour of the week build that will be gone quickly once the counter is figured out.
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Thanks for writing up this build! Wrecking low Masters protoss so hard with this stuff! Been looking for some good two base openers with the rise of gateway openings and that pressure.
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This is a really interesting build. I think it also would've worked in WoL. What all zergs did to respond to a FFE from P was to just take a quick 3rd and be as economical as possible. Teching fast off of 2 bases was not common at all, and also wasn't the best. Although Life did it a bit especially around TSL4. But here Leenock instead of going for early tech off of 2 base, decides to go for upgrades, then takes his 3rd. It's just as late-game focused as a 3 hatch gasless opening, but instead focuses on upgrades instead of drones and expansions. Its also much safer since you get that ling speed fairly quick.
The 3rd timing is pretty smart with this build. He takes it just as he saturates his first 2 bases and when P would be gearing up for a 2 base push, giving him a perfect opportunity to make lings, since he is just waiting for his base to finish to make more drones anyway. He could probably even make some drones with the 3rd inject after dropping the 3rd during some 2 base P pushes.
But not missing larva injects is key, as with any ling 2 base openers - every larva counts.
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Nezi I think it might have worked on the back of the infestor and there was a nice max timing with it Symbol used to crush Parting. Though 1 thing that I feel makes a huge difference is that Ultra's now do great damage vs light as well, zealots in particular.
A note I'd like to bring in here is the use of neural parasite as it works great with ultra's in front on archons, colossi and immortals. Another advantage of using NP I noticed earlier today is that recall doesn't work on parasited units so that got me 3 free colossi for my troubles in stead of 0 damage.
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I'm glad you mentioned Symbol using it in WoL, Abidus. That was the first thing I thought of when seeing the build. I don't recall Symbol using it much after that series versus Parting, and I can't think of other zergs who used it regularly. I would be interested in seeing a comparison between the builds after the openings. I can't remember when Symbol took gas but I'm pretty sure he did a 14 pool -> three hatch before gas.
Another difference is also that Symbol focused heavily on banelings.
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Ya now that you mention that series, I remember it. Those games were very interesting. I recall that the cloud kingdom one blew my mind the way he dismantled Parting's army so easily. It seems the general concept behind the build is quite similar but the transitions and way to get there is completely different. Its interesting that old builds come up in new ways in HotS. I feel like this is true in other matchups as well.
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I'm 99% sure that Symbol just went a classic two gas @6:00 into super fast infestation pit/hive with upgrades. However, he wasn't facing a gateway first 21 nexus build. He had a full 4 base economy behind that push (15:00, IIRC), and it was only as successful as it was because Parting's army was out in the open at his 4th, instead of behind his simcity. Had he been tucked away at his third the engagement would have been far different (especially with weaker ultras).
This strategy will phase out over time (it's a gimmick). Being so low eco means that you have to have really tight timings - the build's essentially an allin (unless you can put yourself in a great position and drone/get the eco you need). I could see the skeleton being adapted to a 3 base build, which seems to promise far more utility. Being on 3 bases gives the Z the necessary power to survive in the midgame, and it's just too powerful an advantage to let go of against P.
The core skeleton of the build might be something like...2 gas @6:00, roach warren as usual, into infestation pit, spire, and double evolution chamber. The most powerful part about this build, IMO is the threat of mutalisks and tech switches. Getting the two tech buildings with arguably the most utility that Z has in the game together allows you so many options. You're not limited to ling ultra. Corruptors, mutas, swarmhosts (to stop immo/sentry!), it's a really flexible core.
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On May 01 2013 13:56 Qwyn wrote:
I'm 99% sure that Symbol just went a classic two gas @6:00 into super fast infestation pit/hive with upgrades. However, he wasn't facing a gateway first 21 nexus build. He had a full 4 base economy behind that push (15:00, IIRC), and it was only as successful as it was because Parting's army was out in the open at his 4th, instead of behind his simcity. Had he been tucked away at his third the engagement would have been far different (especially with weaker ultras).
This strategy will phase out over time (it's a gimmick). Being so low eco means that you have to have really tight timings - the build's essentially an allin (unless you can put yourself in a great position and drone/get the eco you need). I could see the skeleton being adapted to a 3 base build, which seems to promise far more utility. Being on 3 bases gives the Z the necessary power to survive in the midgame, and it's just too powerful an advantage to let go of against P.
The core skeleton of the build might be something like...2 gas @6:00, roach warren as usual, into infestation pit, spire, and double evolution chamber. The most powerful part about this build, IMO is the threat of mutalisks and tech switches. Getting the two tech buildings with arguably the most utility that Z has in the game together allows you so many options. You're not limited to ling ultra. Corruptors, mutas, swarmhosts (to stop immo/sentry!), it's a really flexible core.
1. It's not a gimmick, it's a legit strategy. Leenock did it 3 out of 7 of his ZvP's. Jaedong used it against Naniwa and lost, but Naniwa said that Jaedong beat him 8 times in a row using this strategy in practice. What kind of gimmick is Naniwa going to lose to 8 times in a row?
2. It's not low eco at all. You are simply using more gas than the "standard" 3 base opening so there is no need for such an early 3rd because you can't saturate it. That's like saying if a terran doesn't go 3 CC on 1 rax then it's low eco...
The build is safer than 3 hatch openings and much stronger in the midgame b/c of the early upgrades. Protoss have a difficult time getting their 3rd up against this build. The disadvantages are less drones, and less versatility than 3 hatch (upgrades force you to stick to melee units). However, if the game were only about getting as many drones as possible, ret would be the best player in the world.
3. I think you totally missed the point of this build. It's not about tech switching at all. It's about getting 3/3 and ultras as soon as possible. After the ultras are out you can tech switch all you want, but if you're building mutas and swarm hosts then your ultras are going to be significantly delayed.
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It's a gimmick. Are you seriously telling me that it's not? Look at how low eco he is. He gets his 3rd at 7:30! The most powerful moments of the whole tourney were not when he pushed with his ultras, but when he prepped muta tech in addition to infestation pit, and used an advantage he gained through positioning (Protoss uncertainty, unfamiliarity).
Massing ultras on 3 bases is an allin. You have no eco to do anything else. As much as you want to say that this strategy is going to be the next great thing in ZvP, it's really not. I'm not retarded - I haven't missed the point of this build at all. Don't blindside yourself into following the BO without deviation. Look at Leenock's strongest games with it - 3 out of 7 ZvPs. The build RELIES on Protoss fucking up (bad zealot hold position, bad sim-city) or being unprepared (and it is in response to a 21 Nexus). You saw the beginnings of how Protoss will shut it down (shit on it) in Naniwa's killer timings.
Did you happen to listen to Meta last night? There's some really smart dudes with more credentials than I who essentially said the exact same thing. Take the CORE of the build away, and you can use it off a 3 hatch base.
1. Spire and infestation pit. The threat of mutas is such a powerful psychological threat. The utility of these two buildings is probably greater than any other two in the game. With it you have all the tools you need to break a Protoss down.
2. Hive upon seeing third.
3. You have swarm hosts, another utility unit, at your disposal if P should do an allin timing.
You are playing low-eco with this build. Staying even with the P is low eco. 48 drones until 9:00 is low eco. It is "safer" than 3 hatch openings, yet in doing it you sacrifice a game winning advantage for faster upgrades. Every timing that was pulled off could be done FASTER, more efficiently, and with more "OOMPH" behind it from a 3 hatch base. Relying on counter attacks to keep you alive until 16:00 ultras, against all the shit P could possibly do against you (timings which will only get more powerful) - is a gimmick.
Just think long term. Try to extrapolate WHAT made the build powerful. In a couple weeks it will be completely outdated. It's a specific, allin response to a gateway expand. Think about the core (which is what has got me really fucking excited).
(Of course JD beat Naniwa 8 times in a row with it in practice - he had probably never seen it before, - it highlights the obvious weaknesses of 21N (later upgrades), and it's JD FFS).
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On May 02 2013 01:22 Qwyn wrote:
It's a gimmick. Are you seriously telling me that it's not? Look at how low eco he is. He gets his 3rd at 7:30! The most powerful moments of the whole tourney were not when he pushed with his ultras, but when he prepped muta tech in addition to infestation pit, and used an advantage he gained through positioning (Protoss uncertainty, unfamiliarity).
Massing ultras on 3 bases is an allin. You have no eco to do anything else. As much as you want to say that this strategy is going to be the next great thing in ZvP, it's really not. I'm not retarded - I haven't missed the point of this build at all. Don't blindside yourself into following the BO without deviation. Look at Leenock's strongest games with it - 3 out of 7 ZvPs. The build RELIES on Protoss fucking up (bad zealot hold position, bad sim-city) or being unprepared (and it is in response to a 21 Nexus). You saw the beginnings of how Protoss will shut it down (shit on it) in Naniwa's killer timings.
Did you happen to listen to Meta last night? There's some really smart dudes with more credentials than I who essentially said the exact same thing. Take the CORE of the build away, and you can use it off a 3 hatch base.
1. Spire and infestation pit. The threat of mutas is such a powerful psychological threat. The utility of these two buildings is probably greater than any other two in the game. With it you have all the tools you need to break a Protoss down.
2. Hive upon seeing third.
3. You have swarm hosts, another utility unit, at your disposal if P should do an allin timing.
You are playing low-eco with this build. Staying even with the P is low eco. 48 drones until 9:00 is low eco. It is "safer" than 3 hatch openings, yet in doing it you sacrifice a game winning advantage for faster upgrades. Every timing that was pulled off could be done FASTER, more efficiently, and with more "OOMPH" behind it from a 3 hatch base. Relying on counter attacks to keep you alive until 16:00 ultras, against all the shit P could possibly do against you (timings which will only get more powerful) - is a gimmick.
Just think long term. Try to extrapolate WHAT made the build powerful. In a couple weeks it will be completely outdated. It's a specific, allin response to a gateway expand. Think about the core (which is what has got me really fucking excited).
(Of course JD beat Naniwa 8 times in a row with it in practice - he had probably never seen it before, - it highlights the obvious weaknesses of 21N (later upgrades), and it's JD FFS).
Going third first generally forces Z into hydra's or roaches first just to deal with any of many potential pressure builds. Still even going that first and switching into it later works really well I think, ultra's are beastly now. Ultra/roach lategame is even better than ultra/ling imo, lings just die to AoE too quickly i think.
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Are you watching Dimaga vs Socke on WCS Europe stream right now ?
Dimaga (doing this start) just crushed the 2 bases socke push with 2 colossi with lings only with good multi-pronged attack 0o
Edit: He just did twice
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On May 02 2013 01:34 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 01:22 Qwyn wrote:
It's a gimmick. Are you seriously telling me that it's not? Look at how low eco he is. He gets his 3rd at 7:30! The most powerful moments of the whole tourney were not when he pushed with his ultras, but when he prepped muta tech in addition to infestation pit, and used an advantage he gained through positioning (Protoss uncertainty, unfamiliarity).
Massing ultras on 3 bases is an allin. You have no eco to do anything else. As much as you want to say that this strategy is going to be the next great thing in ZvP, it's really not. I'm not retarded - I haven't missed the point of this build at all. Don't blindside yourself into following the BO without deviation. Look at Leenock's strongest games with it - 3 out of 7 ZvPs. The build RELIES on Protoss fucking up (bad zealot hold position, bad sim-city) or being unprepared (and it is in response to a 21 Nexus). You saw the beginnings of how Protoss will shut it down (shit on it) in Naniwa's killer timings.
Did you happen to listen to Meta last night? There's some really smart dudes with more credentials than I who essentially said the exact same thing. Take the CORE of the build away, and you can use it off a 3 hatch base.
1. Spire and infestation pit. The threat of mutas is such a powerful psychological threat. The utility of these two buildings is probably greater than any other two in the game. With it you have all the tools you need to break a Protoss down.
2. Hive upon seeing third.
3. You have swarm hosts, another utility unit, at your disposal if P should do an allin timing.
You are playing low-eco with this build. Staying even with the P is low eco. 48 drones until 9:00 is low eco. It is "safer" than 3 hatch openings, yet in doing it you sacrifice a game winning advantage for faster upgrades. Every timing that was pulled off could be done FASTER, more efficiently, and with more "OOMPH" behind it from a 3 hatch base. Relying on counter attacks to keep you alive until 16:00 ultras, against all the shit P could possibly do against you (timings which will only get more powerful) - is a gimmick.
Just think long term. Try to extrapolate WHAT made the build powerful. In a couple weeks it will be completely outdated. It's a specific, allin response to a gateway expand. Think about the core (which is what has got me really fucking excited).
(Of course JD beat Naniwa 8 times in a row with it in practice - he had probably never seen it before, - it highlights the obvious weaknesses of 21N (later upgrades), and it's JD FFS). Going third first generally forces Z into hydra's or roaches first just to deal with any of many potential pressure builds. Still even going that first and switching into it later works really well I think, ultra's are beastly now. Ultra/roach lategame is even better than ultra/ling imo, lings just die to AoE too quickly i think.
If you feel your zerglings are useless late game its because you aren't using them properly. Use them to counter attack or drop his base while you engage in other locations. Just a handful of 3/3 cracklings can decimate a protoss base. They are so supply efficient compared to roaches that your main army will not be drastically effected. In fact the protoss will be forced to commit more to defending than you spend attacking making it a very effective multi pronged attack.
When you do actually kill off his aoe units reinforcing with mass cracklings is extremely powerful. He can warp in anything he wants and it just won't compare to a remax on cracklings if he lost most or all of his colossus.
The other hidden power of the late game zergling is speed banelings. Late game you may not need to trade efficiently to win the game. You might just need a way to kill his army. In those cases banelings are great because protoss clump up a lot and forcefields get trampled by ultras.
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On May 02 2013 01:22 Qwyn wrote:
It's a gimmick. Are you seriously telling me that it's not? Look at how low eco he is. He gets his 3rd at 7:30! The most powerful moments of the whole tourney were not when he pushed with his ultras, but when he prepped muta tech in addition to infestation pit, and used an advantage he gained through positioning (Protoss uncertainty, unfamiliarity).
Massing ultras on 3 bases is an allin. You have no eco to do anything else. As much as you want to say that this strategy is going to be the next great thing in ZvP, it's really not. I'm not retarded - I haven't missed the point of this build at all. Don't blindside yourself into following the BO without deviation. Look at Leenock's strongest games with it - 3 out of 7 ZvPs. The build RELIES on Protoss fucking up (bad zealot hold position, bad sim-city) or being unprepared (and it is in response to a 21 Nexus). You saw the beginnings of how Protoss will shut it down (shit on it) in Naniwa's killer timings.
Did you happen to listen to Meta last night? There's some really smart dudes with more credentials than I who essentially said the exact same thing. Take the CORE of the build away, and you can use it off a 3 hatch base.
1. Spire and infestation pit. The threat of mutas is such a powerful psychological threat. The utility of these two buildings is probably greater than any other two in the game. With it you have all the tools you need to break a Protoss down.
2. Hive upon seeing third.
3. You have swarm hosts, another utility unit, at your disposal if P should do an allin timing.
You are playing low-eco with this build. Staying even with the P is low eco. 48 drones until 9:00 is low eco. It is "safer" than 3 hatch openings, yet in doing it you sacrifice a game winning advantage for faster upgrades. Every timing that was pulled off could be done FASTER, more efficiently, and with more "OOMPH" behind it from a 3 hatch base. Relying on counter attacks to keep you alive until 16:00 ultras, against all the shit P could possibly do against you (timings which will only get more powerful) - is a gimmick.
Just think long term. Try to extrapolate WHAT made the build powerful. In a couple weeks it will be completely outdated. It's a specific, allin response to a gateway expand. Think about the core (which is what has got me really fucking excited).
(Of course JD beat Naniwa 8 times in a row with it in practice - he had probably never seen it before, - it highlights the obvious weaknesses of 21N (later upgrades), and it's JD FFS).
It's catching on more and more as we speak. People are doing it against non gateway openings and winning all the time, it's not reserved for gateway first openings.
Your timings show me just how unaware you are. With crisp timings, the first ultras are out by 14:00, not 16:00. There's no reason that you can't take a 3rd at 6:00 (44 supply) just before starting 1/1. That's something I have been doing. Leenock has usually been opting to get an extra round of drones up to 56 supply and getting his 2nd gas before taking his 3rd. Leenock started his 4th at 11:20 in his game vs hero.
Is that where you truly think this game is right now? If you don't get as many drones as possible, that you're all-in? I hate to break it to you, but gone are the days where you drone straight to 80 drones.
And you're not even with the protoss in drones. Against hero, Leenock was at 48 drones to 37 probes at the 7:35 mark. 54 to 41 at the 8:40ish mark, and Leenock had lost a few drones to oracle harassment as well. I suggest you get your facts right.
All I can do is watch high level games, and try the build on my own. And everywhere I see this build, I see success.
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On May 02 2013 02:50 vsportsguy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 01:22 Qwyn wrote:
It's a gimmick. Are you seriously telling me that it's not? Look at how low eco he is. He gets his 3rd at 7:30! The most powerful moments of the whole tourney were not when he pushed with his ultras, but when he prepped muta tech in addition to infestation pit, and used an advantage he gained through positioning (Protoss uncertainty, unfamiliarity).
Massing ultras on 3 bases is an allin. You have no eco to do anything else. As much as you want to say that this strategy is going to be the next great thing in ZvP, it's really not. I'm not retarded - I haven't missed the point of this build at all. Don't blindside yourself into following the BO without deviation. Look at Leenock's strongest games with it - 3 out of 7 ZvPs. The build RELIES on Protoss fucking up (bad zealot hold position, bad sim-city) or being unprepared (and it is in response to a 21 Nexus). You saw the beginnings of how Protoss will shut it down (shit on it) in Naniwa's killer timings.
Did you happen to listen to Meta last night? There's some really smart dudes with more credentials than I who essentially said the exact same thing. Take the CORE of the build away, and you can use it off a 3 hatch base.
1. Spire and infestation pit. The threat of mutas is such a powerful psychological threat. The utility of these two buildings is probably greater than any other two in the game. With it you have all the tools you need to break a Protoss down.
2. Hive upon seeing third.
3. You have swarm hosts, another utility unit, at your disposal if P should do an allin timing.
You are playing low-eco with this build. Staying even with the P is low eco. 48 drones until 9:00 is low eco. It is "safer" than 3 hatch openings, yet in doing it you sacrifice a game winning advantage for faster upgrades. Every timing that was pulled off could be done FASTER, more efficiently, and with more "OOMPH" behind it from a 3 hatch base. Relying on counter attacks to keep you alive until 16:00 ultras, against all the shit P could possibly do against you (timings which will only get more powerful) - is a gimmick.
Just think long term. Try to extrapolate WHAT made the build powerful. In a couple weeks it will be completely outdated. It's a specific, allin response to a gateway expand. Think about the core (which is what has got me really fucking excited).
(Of course JD beat Naniwa 8 times in a row with it in practice - he had probably never seen it before, - it highlights the obvious weaknesses of 21N (later upgrades), and it's JD FFS). It's catching on more and more as we speak. People are doing it against non gateway openings and winning all the time, it's not reserved for gateway first openings. Your timings show me just how unaware you are. With crisp timings, the first ultras are out by 14:00, not 16:00. There's no reason that you can't take a 3rd at 6:00 (44 supply) just before starting 1/1. That's something I have been doing. Leenock has usually been opting to get an extra round of drones up to 56 supply and getting his 2nd gas before taking his 3rd. Leenock started his 4th at 11:20 in his game vs hero. Is that where you truly think this game is right now? If you don't get as many drones as possible, that you're all-in? I hate to break it to you, but gone are the days where you drone straight to 80 drones. And you're not even with the protoss in drones. Against hero, Leenock was at 48 drones to 37 probes at the 7:35 mark. 54 to 41 at the 8:40ish mark, and Leenock had lost a few drones to oracle harassment as well. I suggest you get your facts right. All I can do is watch high level games, and try the build on my own. And everywhere I see this build, I see success.
If you do this against a forge first and the Protoss just hits a plain gateway timing with +1 or +2 or a sentryheavy push like sentry/immortal you are in an incredible amount of trouble when you rely on pure ling.
That build is relying on gateway expands, stargate builds or plainly a defensive/reactive Protoss. However if you scout something else like a gateway allin and you actually know your timings, you should be able to go into a 3base roach or 2base swarm host play instead.
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On May 02 2013 04:49 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 02:50 vsportsguy wrote:On May 02 2013 01:22 Qwyn wrote:
It's a gimmick. Are you seriously telling me that it's not? Look at how low eco he is. He gets his 3rd at 7:30! The most powerful moments of the whole tourney were not when he pushed with his ultras, but when he prepped muta tech in addition to infestation pit, and used an advantage he gained through positioning (Protoss uncertainty, unfamiliarity).
Massing ultras on 3 bases is an allin. You have no eco to do anything else. As much as you want to say that this strategy is going to be the next great thing in ZvP, it's really not. I'm not retarded - I haven't missed the point of this build at all. Don't blindside yourself into following the BO without deviation. Look at Leenock's strongest games with it - 3 out of 7 ZvPs. The build RELIES on Protoss fucking up (bad zealot hold position, bad sim-city) or being unprepared (and it is in response to a 21 Nexus). You saw the beginnings of how Protoss will shut it down (shit on it) in Naniwa's killer timings.
Did you happen to listen to Meta last night? There's some really smart dudes with more credentials than I who essentially said the exact same thing. Take the CORE of the build away, and you can use it off a 3 hatch base.
1. Spire and infestation pit. The threat of mutas is such a powerful psychological threat. The utility of these two buildings is probably greater than any other two in the game. With it you have all the tools you need to break a Protoss down.
2. Hive upon seeing third.
3. You have swarm hosts, another utility unit, at your disposal if P should do an allin timing.
You are playing low-eco with this build. Staying even with the P is low eco. 48 drones until 9:00 is low eco. It is "safer" than 3 hatch openings, yet in doing it you sacrifice a game winning advantage for faster upgrades. Every timing that was pulled off could be done FASTER, more efficiently, and with more "OOMPH" behind it from a 3 hatch base. Relying on counter attacks to keep you alive until 16:00 ultras, against all the shit P could possibly do against you (timings which will only get more powerful) - is a gimmick.
Just think long term. Try to extrapolate WHAT made the build powerful. In a couple weeks it will be completely outdated. It's a specific, allin response to a gateway expand. Think about the core (which is what has got me really fucking excited).
(Of course JD beat Naniwa 8 times in a row with it in practice - he had probably never seen it before, - it highlights the obvious weaknesses of 21N (later upgrades), and it's JD FFS). It's catching on more and more as we speak. People are doing it against non gateway openings and winning all the time, it's not reserved for gateway first openings. Your timings show me just how unaware you are. With crisp timings, the first ultras are out by 14:00, not 16:00. There's no reason that you can't take a 3rd at 6:00 (44 supply) just before starting 1/1. That's something I have been doing. Leenock has usually been opting to get an extra round of drones up to 56 supply and getting his 2nd gas before taking his 3rd. Leenock started his 4th at 11:20 in his game vs hero. Is that where you truly think this game is right now? If you don't get as many drones as possible, that you're all-in? I hate to break it to you, but gone are the days where you drone straight to 80 drones. And you're not even with the protoss in drones. Against hero, Leenock was at 48 drones to 37 probes at the 7:35 mark. 54 to 41 at the 8:40ish mark, and Leenock had lost a few drones to oracle harassment as well. I suggest you get your facts right. All I can do is watch high level games, and try the build on my own. And everywhere I see this build, I see success. If you do this against a forge first and the Protoss just hits a plain gateway timing with +1 or +2 or a sentryheavy push like sentry/immortal you are in an incredible amount of trouble when you rely on pure ling. That build is relying on gateway expands, stargate builds or plainly a defensive/reactive Protoss. However if you scout something else like a gateway allin and you actually know your timings, you should be able to go into a 3base roach or 2base swarm host play instead.
It works better vs gateway expands because of the huge upgrade advantage, but people act like it's totally unviable against forge first.
I haven't seen or experienced a sentry immortal all-in vs this build yet. You do have 1/1 lings and extra gas. If you can get to hydras in time, you literally have the perfect counter to sentry immortal. I don't know if the timings allow for it or not.
Against gateway all-ins speedlings and spines work better than anything else that early. Gateway all-ins are pretty bad nowadays and this build is much safer than 3 hatch is against it, so I don't understand your argument.
I don't know why people hate this build, the biggest weakness is in the 12:00 to 14:00 mark before ultras are out. Even the commentators commend protoss' for doing 2 base colossi pushes. They say it counters the fast ultra build and it will be very hard for the zerg to hold. In theory, it should be a huge weakness: zergs are stuck on lings for the core of their army at a relatively late point in the game. However we've seen zergs defend 2 base colossi pushes time and time again.
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Look, man, the build is designed for use against a gateway expand. If you want to use it against an FFE - that's far from optimal. There is no reason why you cannot adapt it to a 3H build.
"If you don't get as many drones as possible, that you're all-in?"
The advantage that you get from a strong economy far outweighs ANY compositional advantage. Against an FFE, your upgrades are going to be on par with the P, so you lose part of the advantage that makes the timing so strong against gateway expands. If you adhere to the same timings against an FFE the P is in all likelihood going to overwhelm you.
Nobody HATES the build. But you have to recognize what it is. I've been offering up suggestions for how to adapt the build to 3H play, and help it evolve. The core - the most powerful elements of an adaptation are 3 things:
1. Spire and infestation pit combination.
2. Fast double upgrades.
3. Hive upon seeing 3rd.
Take a build skeleton, don't be inflexible. If P does FFE there is NO reason not to 3H and get an advantage. The build simply becomes inferior.
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I love how people are calling this a "gimmick".
Does this change ZvP..... actually yea it does, quite a bit, too. People are so incredibly used to Zerg being the stale side of the matchup, constantly reacting, that whenever a strict timing is offered up that is not based on reaction to what the protoss is playing, it is considered all-in, gimmicky, and/or flavor of the week.
This is how toss plays the matchup. Plans from the start, non-reactionary based timings. Just because the match-up is changing in HoTS doesn't mean it's the wrong way to play it.
The build does change the match-up, get over it. It is a match-up that is changing, zerg is a race that is being played differently by many pros around the world. It doesn't mean the old zerg is lost, but is does mean there is a new one up in coming.
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Right, but what happens when things come full circle again? They will. The composition won't really change the MU in any significant way - it's a reaction to P going gateway first. I guess, what I assumed from the start, and what I still think is true - is that P will eventually stop using gateway first timings except in rare circumstances, returning to FFE. Thus, why not take the CORE elements of the build and port them over to a 3H framework?
What I'm most excited for are the things that the guys on Meta talked about in EP2. The combination of spire and infestation pit opens up so many options. Sure, add in faster upgrades, and you have so much versatility. This is the core of the build.
Zerg is reactionary. But then - so are the OTHER races. Building a spire FORCES a reaction from the toss, a reaction which makes YOUR response potential much more potent. The combination opens up the chance for next level mind games.
Builds like this have been used before. For reference, MorroW did a lot of ling/bane play in ZvP when he played Zerg (back before overlord drop was nerfed). I think it's best not to get caught up on the composition so much and focus on the most crucial elements - in this case, the spire, infestation pit, and faster upgrades (sure, and a hive upon seeing a 3rd).
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Calling Zerg "reaction" and Protoss "reaction" is inaccurate. You use the same word to talk about two entirely different processes. Protoss going stargate is not a reaction to spire, its a build. Protoss "adding" stargates is a reaction.
Everyone reacts in a game of starcraft, but that isn't the reaction that has been the staple of Zerg play. This build is huge.
Is there a 3 base variation, sure, but why are you all stuck on 3 base? Two base not viable? Maybe not in the past.
Full circle you say? This is starcraft man, there is no full-circle. What would full-circle even be? Proxy vultures, 4-gate, Steppes of War, where do you wanna begin the history of meta?
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On May 02 2013 11:55 konicki wrote:
This is how toss plays the matchup. Plans from the start, non-reactionary based timings. Just because the match-up is changing in HoTS doesn't mean it's the wrong way to play it.
The build does change the match-up, get over it. It is a match-up that is changing, zerg is a race that is being played differently by many pros around the world. It doesn't mean the old zerg is lost, but is does mean there is a new one up in coming.
Very good points. I think the reason that I like this build so much is because the timings line up so well. It allows me to really work on my mechanics (it takes good mechanics to properly execute). I don't have to think about my composition, I already know what it's going to be.
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This build isn't "huge," lol. It's a gimmick for the reason that you are relying entirely on lings to keep you alive until ultras pop out.
But that doesn't mean that it cannot evolve to be a standard build...I'm calling the build a gimmick - I still think it is. Why not take the principles of the build and adapt them? Is that not a reasonable thing to do?
"Protoss going stargate is not a reaction to spire..." I never once mentioned that a Protoss builds a stargate in reaction to a spire. I said that building a spire forces a reaction from Protoss. Whether that is building more phoenix (making your response potential much more potent - you don't have to build mutas at all), or attacking at a timing...it does force a reaction. All races are capable of forcing reactions. The core of infestation pit and spire has the potential to do so much.
The game has come full circle many times before. Obviously circumstances are different now - our knowledge is much greater than 2010-2011. The game is different with HOTS. But the idea of getting fast melee/carapace upgrades and using lings against Protoss has been around forever. And it fell out of style due to necessity (reaction). Now, with the rise of gateway first builds AGAIN, it's coming back into style.
There's no reason why you can't take the core and make it viable irregardless of what the Protoss is doing, while maximizing economic focus and not putting yourself at a disadvantage simply because you do not want to utilize the aggressive economic potential of zerg (some call it droning).
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United States4883 Posts
On May 02 2013 12:38 Qwyn wrote:
This build isn't "huge," lol. It's a gimmick for the reason that you are relying entirely on lings to keep you alive until ultras pop out.
But that doesn't mean that it cannot evolve to be a standard build...I'm calling the build a gimmick - I still think it is. Why not take the principles of the build and adapt them? Is that not a reasonable thing to do?
"Protoss going stargate is not a reaction to spire..." I never once mentioned that a Protoss builds a stargate in reaction to a spire. I said that building a spire forces a reaction from Protoss. Whether that is building more phoenix (making your response potential much more potent - you don't have to build mutas at all), or attacking at a timing...it does force a reaction. All races are capable of forcing reactions. The core of infestation pit and spire has the potential to do so much.
The game has come full circle many times before. Obviously circumstances are different now - our knowledge is much greater than 2010-2011. The game is different with HOTS. But the idea of getting fast melee/carapace upgrades and using lings against Protoss has been around forever. And it fell out of style due to necessity (reaction). Now, with the rise of gateway first builds AGAIN, it's coming back into style.
There's no reason why you can't take the core and make it viable irregardless of what the Protoss is doing, while maximizing economic focus and not putting yourself at a disadvantage simply because you do not want to utilize the aggressive economic potential of zerg (some call it droning).
...you just said "irregardless". I have a hard time taking you seriously now.
But seriously. I believe pretty strongly that a lot of the games that were played at DH Stockholm were the beginning points to a lot of HotS development. To say that Leenock's fast ultra ZvP or Nani's gate expand into 4-gate PvZ are brilliant strategies is certainly true. However, you have to understand that there were a lot of underlying causes and effects which caused players like JD to do crazy things like 3-hatch before pool and Leenock to just NOT get a 3rd base until well after 7:00 - things which had VERY LITTLE to do with the actual builds they were doing and were simply metagame adjustments for their opponents.
Therefore, everyone LISTEN to Qwyn. The build Leenock used is somewhat gimmicky and unlikely to succeed against a well-prepared protoss, but the CORE of it is worth looking at and adjusting. There's no reason to get stuck in the rut of saying "Well, Leenock didn't even take a 3rd base early, so there's no reason why I should even try to take a 3rd so early. No matter what my opponent is doing, I'll just try to get fast ultras and steamroll him." Don't get stuck with your head buried in the build order.
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You're criticizing me for using a word that has been used as a composite of regardless and irrespective since the 1900s ? I'm running out of things to say here (but my excitement for spire/infestation pit cannot be contained).
The potential here is overwhelming. I'm also digging the hive timing. Starting your hive as a reaction to seeing a third is a really sick trigger.
Your last paragraph really does emphasize what I'm trying to say pretty damn eloquently, lol. Except I came in calling the exact BO a gimmick and so I got into a big argument about it.
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I think something that makes the build unique is the risk that it takes. In fact, it makes it more like builds that other races take, intentionally skimming on def for example to get a certain unit out more quickly.
What makes a build a build is more than not things like gas timings, hatch timings, upgrade timings, and unit pop timings. These timings get switched around based on what you scout, but it doesnt change the build, or what you're saying is the "core" of the build. It is what we saw in essence in the final match:
Had Leenock defended with strickly lings, yes he would have died. Did he? No.... He manipulated the build to protect himself from what he scouted, however, a "core" part of the build is, in fact, relying on pure ling/queen/spine until you get ultras. It is what makes the build the build in essence because it is what allows for all of the fast upgrade timings that they use.
So, in essence, we are arguing the same thing. Only, I am trying to point out that that gimmicky part of relying on lings is actually the beauty of the build. Will it need to be thrown out to survive at times, yes, definitely. Will you build other gas units if your ling play is going quite well that game? No...
I honestly think that the power of 1-1 2-2 speedlings off 3-4 hatch (one macro) has been under-emphasized here.
Finally, i dont dislike the use of the word "reaction", I am only trying to emphasize how differently the word is used depending on what race you are talking about. For Zerg play the word takes on a whole new meaning.
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On May 02 2013 05:45 vsportsguy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 04:49 Big J wrote:On May 02 2013 02:50 vsportsguy wrote:On May 02 2013 01:22 Qwyn wrote:
It's a gimmick. Are you seriously telling me that it's not? Look at how low eco he is. He gets his 3rd at 7:30! The most powerful moments of the whole tourney were not when he pushed with his ultras, but when he prepped muta tech in addition to infestation pit, and used an advantage he gained through positioning (Protoss uncertainty, unfamiliarity).
Massing ultras on 3 bases is an allin. You have no eco to do anything else. As much as you want to say that this strategy is going to be the next great thing in ZvP, it's really not. I'm not retarded - I haven't missed the point of this build at all. Don't blindside yourself into following the BO without deviation. Look at Leenock's strongest games with it - 3 out of 7 ZvPs. The build RELIES on Protoss fucking up (bad zealot hold position, bad sim-city) or being unprepared (and it is in response to a 21 Nexus). You saw the beginnings of how Protoss will shut it down (shit on it) in Naniwa's killer timings.
Did you happen to listen to Meta last night? There's some really smart dudes with more credentials than I who essentially said the exact same thing. Take the CORE of the build away, and you can use it off a 3 hatch base.
1. Spire and infestation pit. The threat of mutas is such a powerful psychological threat. The utility of these two buildings is probably greater than any other two in the game. With it you have all the tools you need to break a Protoss down.
2. Hive upon seeing third.
3. You have swarm hosts, another utility unit, at your disposal if P should do an allin timing.
You are playing low-eco with this build. Staying even with the P is low eco. 48 drones until 9:00 is low eco. It is "safer" than 3 hatch openings, yet in doing it you sacrifice a game winning advantage for faster upgrades. Every timing that was pulled off could be done FASTER, more efficiently, and with more "OOMPH" behind it from a 3 hatch base. Relying on counter attacks to keep you alive until 16:00 ultras, against all the shit P could possibly do against you (timings which will only get more powerful) - is a gimmick.
Just think long term. Try to extrapolate WHAT made the build powerful. In a couple weeks it will be completely outdated. It's a specific, allin response to a gateway expand. Think about the core (which is what has got me really fucking excited).
(Of course JD beat Naniwa 8 times in a row with it in practice - he had probably never seen it before, - it highlights the obvious weaknesses of 21N (later upgrades), and it's JD FFS). It's catching on more and more as we speak. People are doing it against non gateway openings and winning all the time, it's not reserved for gateway first openings. Your timings show me just how unaware you are. With crisp timings, the first ultras are out by 14:00, not 16:00. There's no reason that you can't take a 3rd at 6:00 (44 supply) just before starting 1/1. That's something I have been doing. Leenock has usually been opting to get an extra round of drones up to 56 supply and getting his 2nd gas before taking his 3rd. Leenock started his 4th at 11:20 in his game vs hero. Is that where you truly think this game is right now? If you don't get as many drones as possible, that you're all-in? I hate to break it to you, but gone are the days where you drone straight to 80 drones. And you're not even with the protoss in drones. Against hero, Leenock was at 48 drones to 37 probes at the 7:35 mark. 54 to 41 at the 8:40ish mark, and Leenock had lost a few drones to oracle harassment as well. I suggest you get your facts right. All I can do is watch high level games, and try the build on my own. And everywhere I see this build, I see success. If you do this against a forge first and the Protoss just hits a plain gateway timing with +1 or +2 or a sentryheavy push like sentry/immortal you are in an incredible amount of trouble when you rely on pure ling. That build is relying on gateway expands, stargate builds or plainly a defensive/reactive Protoss. However if you scout something else like a gateway allin and you actually know your timings, you should be able to go into a 3base roach or 2base swarm host play instead. It works better vs gateway expands because of the huge upgrade advantage, but people act like it's totally unviable against forge first. I haven't seen or experienced a sentry immortal all-in vs this build yet. You do have 1/1 lings and extra gas. If you can get to hydras in time, you literally have the perfect counter to sentry immortal. I don't know if the timings allow for it or not. Against gateway all-ins speedlings and spines work better than anything else that early. Gateway all-ins are pretty bad nowadays and this build is much safer than 3 hatch is against it, so I don't understand your argument. I don't know why people hate this build, the biggest weakness is in the 12:00 to 14:00 mark before ultras are out. Even the commentators commend protoss' for doing 2 base colossi pushes. They say it counters the fast ultra build and it will be very hard for the zerg to hold. In theory, it should be a huge weakness: zergs are stuck on lings for the core of their army at a relatively late point in the game. However we've seen zergs defend 2 base colossi pushes time and time again.
you can't spine up 2 entrances against a gateway allin. If you rely on spines it comes down to the Protoss denying your third and then transitioning and expanding, while you sit behind spines with no strong army to deny his third and not enough larva to continue your zergling play. Really, those builds (minus the ultralisk transition) have been around in WoL already - around the time Stephano style got popular in ZvT people experimented with double upgrade lings in ZvP - and we are not figuering them from scratch.
That doesn't mean that I think they are bad... hell, I'm playing such a build (with 3bases) myself these days. All I'm saying is that you have to be careful and you may need to branch out of the mass zerglings if you scout certain builds from an opponent. (and yeah, you may hold a gateway allin with it, but I don't think it's a very reliable way to do so)
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Hey just a protoss giving the p side on this build. I just ran into this on ladder. I opened gateway first naniwa style and pressured the nat while taking a third and getting a stargate up. I must admit I played pretty poorly but since it was akilon wastes I was able to get my third up really easily. At this point I had built up about 4 phx, went up to about 6-7 at most but scouted the ultra while my robo was building. Was able to easily chrono out double immo, void rays and archons. I was wayyyy behind on upgrades because I'm bad but I still easily rolled his army and won handily.
My point is I don't think you can do this build on maps with an easily defendable third.
Also, I don't think pure lings or ling bane is a good way to hold gateway or +1 gateway timings. Even if you hold it chances are it has done a ton of (indirect?) damage - or at least more than making a few roaches would have.
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The core of this build is really good, I think in large part the problem is that it's really difficult for protoss to know what to make against this.
Ling styles always creep me out because so many things can be coming. Muta's are scary now and only phoenix makes me comfortable against them but phoenix are too useless against ling/ultra in combat so I prefer not making many. They are also useless in securing a third. The big weakness are timing attacks with good forcefields but by the time I'm sure it's this style that window has usually passed.
I guess the best way for protoss to go against it is going some with some voidrays. It forces hydra a bit and are good against ultra's and even so when they are not making them. It's the only tech that somewhat deals with all scary options (muta, swarmhosts and ultra) that can follow this.
There probably are some riskless timings with sentries or +1 that can punish this style of play but that can still recall and continue into a macro game if they didn;t skip roach/hydra. I haven't seen any reliable use of these though by pro's, naniwa got close but I don't like this gateway opening which imo feels inefficient since you usually want a forge and cannon anyway to move out for a timing. And if you get them anyway, why not just do the more economic opening of starting with it..
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Life just cleaned Parting up with this, even against a ffe in game 1.
Edit: He just did something interesting game 2, started doing the mass upgrade style again, but when he was under attack he cancelled his 3rd and stayed on lair. Even after rebuilding his third he didn't saturate it, instead massing ling/infestor with 2/2 upgrades.
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On April 29 2013 12:20 IcemanAsi wrote:
I have to say I saw the last day of the tornument where both JD and Leenock went for this style and I really didn't like it that much. The build seemed to have major vulnrabilites in both early game timings and before the ultras pop, it seemed to rely on protoss making a mistake and losing a lot of units to mid game lings or being too passive and ending up on 3 base versus 5+ situation where zerg wins by attrition.
Perhaps I'm underestimating 2/2 lings versus the lower upgrade protoss army but it seemed to me that every win I saw with this strat was due to some major mistakes on the protoss side.
I take it back. 2/2 lings against Protoss with inferior upgrades are insane and pre-hive timing is held with infestors.
Also upgraded ultras are sick.
Amazing build.
#LifeVsParting
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Does anyone else find it funny how a week ago if you said you were rushing to ultras people would say "you need 4 base to go ultras". It's nice to see people realizing how potent rushing to hive tech is. In terms of cost efficiency ultras are behind only broodlords and swarmhosts for obvious reasons.
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On May 03 2013 00:40 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
Does anyone else find it funny how a week ago if you said you were rushing to ultras people would say "you need 4 base to go ultras". It's nice to see people realizing how potent rushing to hive tech is. In terms of cost efficiency ultras are behind only broodlords and swarmhosts for obvious reasons.
yeah and those people obviously have never read breadth of gameplay, watched 2011-2012 Stephano style ZvT or Leenock's 3base Broodlord/Infestor play against Protoss.
They mix up cause and effect... the effect of not rushing expensive units and upgrades is that in order to mine from 2-3bases you need to take a 4th as your main and natural run dry. So you need a 4th base if you "just happen" to go for lategame tech. But if you rush for such techs, the "full economy" that the first 3bases grant is enough.
Why you believe that ultras are less costefficient than broodlords I can't understand... Mass longrange Broodlord obviously is stronger than mass melee ultralisk in most scenarios. But 4-8ultras can do so much more than 4-8broodlords. And swarmhosts are extremly costinefficient, unless you get in a perfect siege position on a crucial base.
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United States4883 Posts
On May 03 2013 01:09 Big J wrote:
Why you believe that ultras are less costefficient than broodlords I can't understand... Mass longrange Broodlord obviously is stronger than mass melee ultralisk in most scenarios. But 4-8ultras can do so much more than 4-8broodlords. And swarmhosts are extremly costinefficient, unless you get in a perfect siege position on a crucial base.
...What?? They spawn free units....
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On May 03 2013 01:09 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 00:40 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
Does anyone else find it funny how a week ago if you said you were rushing to ultras people would say "you need 4 base to go ultras". It's nice to see people realizing how potent rushing to hive tech is. In terms of cost efficiency ultras are behind only broodlords and swarmhosts for obvious reasons. yeah and those people obviously have never read breadth of gameplay, watched 2011-2012 Stephano style ZvT or Leenock's 3base Broodlord/Infestor play against Protoss. They mix up cause and effect... the effect of not rushing expensive units and upgrades is that in order to mine from 2-3bases you need to take a 4th as your main and natural run dry. So you need a 4th base if you "just happen" to go for lategame tech. But if you rush for such techs, the "full economy" that the first 3bases grant is enough. Why you believe that ultras are less costefficient than broodlords I can't understand... Mass longrange Broodlord obviously is stronger than mass melee ultralisk in most scenarios. But 4-8ultras can do so much more than 4-8broodlords. And swarmhosts are extremly costinefficient, unless you get in a perfect siege position on a crucial base.
When an ultra is dpsing it's getting hit so there's only a certain ammount it can do no matter the situation. That's not always true of swarmhosts and broodlords. And the ultralisks collision size makes it inefficient in tight places. Nevertheless its still a beast.
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Thank you Life, for proving absolutely everything I said before. This build works fine against FFE. It is a completely viable build at even the highest levels of play.
I think it's so funny how everybody theory crafts: they give reasons why this build is weak, people call it a gimmick and an all-in, and they say it can only be used vs gateway first and will get crushed by forge first.They make all of these statements with no proof whatsoever. People forget to look at the most important factor. THE GAMES.
The best zerg in the world just beat the best protoss in the world with this build, and people are going to comment saying that the only reason Life was was because Parting played horribly.
Also, people make too big of a deal about things that ultimately are not that important. For example, Parting delayed Life's natural for over a minute! Normally it goes down at 16 supply around 2:45 or so. Parting was able get his nexus, forge, and pylon before blocking Life's expansion. In return, Life didn't get his hatch down until 4:00 and 24 supply!
When people see that, the general consensus is that Life is really really far behind. But actually, it's not that big of a deal. He had to make 6 lings instead of 2 or 4, he lost some larvae from the hatch being completed later, and he will be over saturated at his main for a little bit. That's it... In the end, it did take away from life's economy early on, but it was a very very small factor in the outcome of the game. If it didn't affect Life that much, then it's not effecting you that much either.
The same goes for the differences between a gateway expand and a FFE (among a host of other things). The differences are not all that great. FFE usually gets earlier upgrades and maybe 1 or 2 more probes because of the earlier Nexus. Gateway expand gets faster tech. The difference is extremely small by the time you get into the mid/late game.
We all agree that fast ultras is better vs gateway first. But do you really believe that fast ultras is only viable against gateway first when the difference between gateway expand and FFE is so small? It's not even a big enough difference to dissuade the best players in the world from using the build, let alone your average masters player.
EDIT: Game is here if anybody wants to watch.
http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs1/vod/80085
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On May 03 2013 01:55 ManiacTheZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:09 Big J wrote:On May 03 2013 00:40 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
Does anyone else find it funny how a week ago if you said you were rushing to ultras people would say "you need 4 base to go ultras". It's nice to see people realizing how potent rushing to hive tech is. In terms of cost efficiency ultras are behind only broodlords and swarmhosts for obvious reasons. yeah and those people obviously have never read breadth of gameplay, watched 2011-2012 Stephano style ZvT or Leenock's 3base Broodlord/Infestor play against Protoss. They mix up cause and effect... the effect of not rushing expensive units and upgrades is that in order to mine from 2-3bases you need to take a 4th as your main and natural run dry. So you need a 4th base if you "just happen" to go for lategame tech. But if you rush for such techs, the "full economy" that the first 3bases grant is enough. Why you believe that ultras are less costefficient than broodlords I can't understand... Mass longrange Broodlord obviously is stronger than mass melee ultralisk in most scenarios. But 4-8ultras can do so much more than 4-8broodlords. And swarmhosts are extremly costinefficient, unless you get in a perfect siege position on a crucial base. When an ultra is dpsing it's getting hit so there's only a certain ammount it can do no matter the situation. That's not always true of swarmhosts and broodlords. And the ultralisks collision size makes it inefficient in tight places. Nevertheless its still a beast.
well, few broodlords are just getting slaughterd by anything in equal cost (like stalkers, marines, hydras), while Ultras don't.
It is very situational dependend when you want ultras and when broodlords, but generally, ultras fare much much better against nearly anything for as long as the opponent does not have a strong maxed army. Ultras are kind of a "cheap unit killer", that shines whenever your opponent doesn't field the heavy guns.
On May 03 2013 01:19 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:09 Big J wrote:
Why you believe that ultras are less costefficient than broodlords I can't understand... Mass longrange Broodlord obviously is stronger than mass melee ultralisk in most scenarios. But 4-8ultras can do so much more than 4-8broodlords. And swarmhosts are extremly costinefficient, unless you get in a perfect siege position on a crucial base. ...What?? They spawn free units....
What, they cost a ton and lose an amove battle against nearly any equal cost composition in the game? Is that what you call costefficient? When you lose the battle against equal cost of enemy army?
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United States4883 Posts
On May 03 2013 02:52 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:55 ManiacTheZealot wrote:On May 03 2013 01:09 Big J wrote:On May 03 2013 00:40 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
Does anyone else find it funny how a week ago if you said you were rushing to ultras people would say "you need 4 base to go ultras". It's nice to see people realizing how potent rushing to hive tech is. In terms of cost efficiency ultras are behind only broodlords and swarmhosts for obvious reasons. yeah and those people obviously have never read breadth of gameplay, watched 2011-2012 Stephano style ZvT or Leenock's 3base Broodlord/Infestor play against Protoss. They mix up cause and effect... the effect of not rushing expensive units and upgrades is that in order to mine from 2-3bases you need to take a 4th as your main and natural run dry. So you need a 4th base if you "just happen" to go for lategame tech. But if you rush for such techs, the "full economy" that the first 3bases grant is enough. Why you believe that ultras are less costefficient than broodlords I can't understand... Mass longrange Broodlord obviously is stronger than mass melee ultralisk in most scenarios. But 4-8ultras can do so much more than 4-8broodlords. And swarmhosts are extremly costinefficient, unless you get in a perfect siege position on a crucial base. When an ultra is dpsing it's getting hit so there's only a certain ammount it can do no matter the situation. That's not always true of swarmhosts and broodlords. And the ultralisks collision size makes it inefficient in tight places. Nevertheless its still a beast. well, few broodlords are just getting slaughterd by anything in equal cost (like stalkers, marines, hydras), while Ultras don't. It is very situational dependend when you want ultras and when broodlords, but generally, ultras fare much much better against nearly anything for as long as the opponent does not have a strong maxed army. Ultras are kind of a "cheap unit killer", that shines whenever your opponent doesn't field the heavy guns. Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:19 SC2John wrote:On May 03 2013 01:09 Big J wrote:
Why you believe that ultras are less costefficient than broodlords I can't understand... Mass longrange Broodlord obviously is stronger than mass melee ultralisk in most scenarios. But 4-8ultras can do so much more than 4-8broodlords. And swarmhosts are extremly costinefficient, unless you get in a perfect siege position on a crucial base. ...What?? They spawn free units.... What, they cost a ton and lose an amove battle against nearly any equal cost composition in the game? Is that what you call costefficient? When you lose the battle against equal cost of enemy army?
I don't want to continue this argument too much and derail the thread. But seriously, that's the dumbest analysis of cost efficiency ever lol. Perhaps in an A-move situation (on an open field), ultras are by far the most "cost-efficient", but in any REAL WORLD analysis that includes army compositions, terrain, and micro, swarm hosts are the most cost-efficient unit in the game. Ultralisks are throwaway units to thin out your opponent's army most of the time.
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I saw Leenock using the queens in his push with ultralisks and I just want to emphasize how important that is. Ultras are so so so much better with queens. I would prefer 1 queen and an ultralisk than 2 ultralisks. Being able to transfuse the ultras is key to the push. I would even make more queens in the midgame instead of zerglings depending on the map and how P decides to play it out. Of course having a solid ling base is good, but squeezing out queens so that you have about 7 with your push is amazing.
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If you're trying to do a sneak attack on me and tell me that I was wrong all along - I never said that the concepts behind the build weren't fucking awesome, lol. I just thing that the build order isn't optimal.
And I wouldn't think that Parting would have the knowledge to defeat this build either, considering that it has only been in play at a high level for a week now.
Markwerf, I'm sure that people will begin to adapt their styles to do what they did a year and a half ago against mass ling styles. But most importantly, there is no reason why P should not be rushing double upgrades as well. That will remove a lot of the edge.
I will say that it is certainly more entertaining (back and forth) - but especially against an FFE - I can't help but think that eventually P are going to start going to start getting faster upgrades to equalize.
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On May 03 2013 03:19 Nezi wrote:
I saw Leenock using the queens in his push with ultralisks and I just want to emphasize how important that is. Ultras are so so so much better with queens. I would prefer 1 queen and an ultralisk than 2 ultralisks. Being able to transfuse the ultras is key to the push. I would even make more queens in the midgame instead of zerglings depending on the map and how P decides to play it out. Of course having a solid ling base is good, but squeezing out queens so that you have about 7 with your push is amazing.
I would say the next step if the game last a little longer is to add a little bit of viper in it, and maybe research neural parasite for the infestor.
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I agree, neural parasite has a home in this build because ultras force very parasitable units. Id probably forgo the glands (i forget the upgrade name) in favor.
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On May 03 2013 02:45 vsportsguy wrote:
I think it's so funny how everybody theory crafts
I was laughing the whole time as well. As if a pro zerg would scout a super early 2base collosus den with chronod forge then start a hive....
Pros don't just mindlessly go through build orders like some people think they do. They actually scout and adjust appropriately. That is one of the many things that separate them from us.
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EPT
