EPTA note I'd like to bring in here is the use of neural parasite as it works great with ultra's in front on archons, colossi and immortals. Another advantage of using NP I noticed earlier today is that recall doesn't work on parasited units so that got me 3 free colossi for my troubles in stead of 0 damage.
[D] ZvP Leenock 3-3 Ultras - Page 3
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Abidus
Belgium8 Posts
A note I'd like to bring in here is the use of neural parasite as it works great with ultra's in front on archons, colossi and immortals. Another advantage of using NP I noticed earlier today is that recall doesn't work on parasited units so that got me 3 free colossi for my troubles in stead of 0 damage. | ||
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metzninja
New Zealand626 Posts
Another difference is also that Symbol focused heavily on banelings. | ||
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Nezi
62 Posts
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Qwyn
United States2781 Posts
This strategy will phase out over time (it's a gimmick). Being so low eco means that you have to have really tight timings - the build's essentially an allin (unless you can put yourself in a great position and drone/get the eco you need). I could see the skeleton being adapted to a 3 base build, which seems to promise far more utility. Being on 3 bases gives the Z the necessary power to survive in the midgame, and it's just too powerful an advantage to let go of against P. The core skeleton of the build might be something like...2 gas @6:00, roach warren as usual, into infestation pit, spire, and double evolution chamber. The most powerful part about this build, IMO is the threat of mutalisks and tech switches. Getting the two tech buildings with arguably the most utility that Z has in the game together allows you so many options. You're not limited to ling ultra. Corruptors, mutas, swarmhosts (to stop immo/sentry!), it's a really flexible core. | ||
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vsportsguy
United States118 Posts
On May 01 2013 13:56 Qwyn wrote: I'm 99% sure that Symbol just went a classic two gas @6:00 into super fast infestation pit/hive with upgrades. However, he wasn't facing a gateway first 21 nexus build. He had a full 4 base economy behind that push (15:00, IIRC), and it was only as successful as it was because Parting's army was out in the open at his 4th, instead of behind his simcity. Had he been tucked away at his third the engagement would have been far different (especially with weaker ultras). This strategy will phase out over time (it's a gimmick). Being so low eco means that you have to have really tight timings - the build's essentially an allin (unless you can put yourself in a great position and drone/get the eco you need). I could see the skeleton being adapted to a 3 base build, which seems to promise far more utility. Being on 3 bases gives the Z the necessary power to survive in the midgame, and it's just too powerful an advantage to let go of against P. The core skeleton of the build might be something like...2 gas @6:00, roach warren as usual, into infestation pit, spire, and double evolution chamber. The most powerful part about this build, IMO is the threat of mutalisks and tech switches. Getting the two tech buildings with arguably the most utility that Z has in the game together allows you so many options. You're not limited to ling ultra. Corruptors, mutas, swarmhosts (to stop immo/sentry!), it's a really flexible core. 1. It's not a gimmick, it's a legit strategy. Leenock did it 3 out of 7 of his ZvP's. Jaedong used it against Naniwa and lost, but Naniwa said that Jaedong beat him 8 times in a row using this strategy in practice. What kind of gimmick is Naniwa going to lose to 8 times in a row? 2. It's not low eco at all. You are simply using more gas than the "standard" 3 base opening so there is no need for such an early 3rd because you can't saturate it. That's like saying if a terran doesn't go 3 CC on 1 rax then it's low eco... The build is safer than 3 hatch openings and much stronger in the midgame b/c of the early upgrades. Protoss have a difficult time getting their 3rd up against this build. The disadvantages are less drones, and less versatility than 3 hatch (upgrades force you to stick to melee units). However, if the game were only about getting as many drones as possible, ret would be the best player in the world. 3. I think you totally missed the point of this build. It's not about tech switching at all. It's about getting 3/3 and ultras as soon as possible. After the ultras are out you can tech switch all you want, but if you're building mutas and swarm hosts then your ultras are going to be significantly delayed. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2781 Posts
Massing ultras on 3 bases is an allin. You have no eco to do anything else. As much as you want to say that this strategy is going to be the next great thing in ZvP, it's really not. I'm not retarded - I haven't missed the point of this build at all. Don't blindside yourself into following the BO without deviation. Look at Leenock's strongest games with it - 3 out of 7 ZvPs. The build RELIES on Protoss fucking up (bad zealot hold position, bad sim-city) or being unprepared (and it is in response to a 21 Nexus). You saw the beginnings of how Protoss will shut it down (shit on it) in Naniwa's killer timings. Did you happen to listen to Meta last night? There's some really smart dudes with more credentials than I who essentially said the exact same thing. Take the CORE of the build away, and you can use it off a 3 hatch base. 1. Spire and infestation pit. The threat of mutas is such a powerful psychological threat. The utility of these two buildings is probably greater than any other two in the game. With it you have all the tools you need to break a Protoss down. 2. Hive upon seeing third. 3. You have swarm hosts, another utility unit, at your disposal if P should do an allin timing. You are playing low-eco with this build. Staying even with the P is low eco. 48 drones until 9:00 is low eco. It is "safer" than 3 hatch openings, yet in doing it you sacrifice a game winning advantage for faster upgrades. Every timing that was pulled off could be done FASTER, more efficiently, and with more "OOMPH" behind it from a 3 hatch base. Relying on counter attacks to keep you alive until 16:00 ultras, against all the shit P could possibly do against you (timings which will only get more powerful) - is a gimmick. Just think long term. Try to extrapolate WHAT made the build powerful. In a couple weeks it will be completely outdated. It's a specific, allin response to a gateway expand. Think about the core (which is what has got me really fucking excited). (Of course JD beat Naniwa 8 times in a row with it in practice - he had probably never seen it before, - it highlights the obvious weaknesses of 21N (later upgrades), and it's JD FFS). | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On May 02 2013 01:22 Qwyn wrote: It's a gimmick. Are you seriously telling me that it's not? Look at how low eco he is. He gets his 3rd at 7:30! The most powerful moments of the whole tourney were not when he pushed with his ultras, but when he prepped muta tech in addition to infestation pit, and used an advantage he gained through positioning (Protoss uncertainty, unfamiliarity). Massing ultras on 3 bases is an allin. You have no eco to do anything else. As much as you want to say that this strategy is going to be the next great thing in ZvP, it's really not. I'm not retarded - I haven't missed the point of this build at all. Don't blindside yourself into following the BO without deviation. Look at Leenock's strongest games with it - 3 out of 7 ZvPs. The build RELIES on Protoss fucking up (bad zealot hold position, bad sim-city) or being unprepared (and it is in response to a 21 Nexus). You saw the beginnings of how Protoss will shut it down (shit on it) in Naniwa's killer timings. Did you happen to listen to Meta last night? There's some really smart dudes with more credentials than I who essentially said the exact same thing. Take the CORE of the build away, and you can use it off a 3 hatch base. 1. Spire and infestation pit. The threat of mutas is such a powerful psychological threat. The utility of these two buildings is probably greater than any other two in the game. With it you have all the tools you need to break a Protoss down. 2. Hive upon seeing third. 3. You have swarm hosts, another utility unit, at your disposal if P should do an allin timing. You are playing low-eco with this build. Staying even with the P is low eco. 48 drones until 9:00 is low eco. It is "safer" than 3 hatch openings, yet in doing it you sacrifice a game winning advantage for faster upgrades. Every timing that was pulled off could be done FASTER, more efficiently, and with more "OOMPH" behind it from a 3 hatch base. Relying on counter attacks to keep you alive until 16:00 ultras, against all the shit P could possibly do against you (timings which will only get more powerful) - is a gimmick. Just think long term. Try to extrapolate WHAT made the build powerful. In a couple weeks it will be completely outdated. It's a specific, allin response to a gateway expand. Think about the core (which is what has got me really fucking excited). (Of course JD beat Naniwa 8 times in a row with it in practice - he had probably never seen it before, - it highlights the obvious weaknesses of 21N (later upgrades), and it's JD FFS). Going third first generally forces Z into hydra's or roaches first just to deal with any of many potential pressure builds. Still even going that first and switching into it later works really well I think, ultra's are beastly now. Ultra/roach lategame is even better than ultra/ling imo, lings just die to AoE too quickly i think. | ||
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Freshpro59
7 Posts
Dimaga (doing this start) just crushed the 2 bases socke push with 2 colossi with lings only with good multi-pronged attack 0o Edit: He just did twice | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On May 02 2013 01:34 Markwerf wrote: Going third first generally forces Z into hydra's or roaches first just to deal with any of many potential pressure builds. Still even going that first and switching into it later works really well I think, ultra's are beastly now. Ultra/roach lategame is even better than ultra/ling imo, lings just die to AoE too quickly i think. If you feel your zerglings are useless late game its because you aren't using them properly. Use them to counter attack or drop his base while you engage in other locations. Just a handful of 3/3 cracklings can decimate a protoss base. They are so supply efficient compared to roaches that your main army will not be drastically effected. In fact the protoss will be forced to commit more to defending than you spend attacking making it a very effective multi pronged attack. When you do actually kill off his aoe units reinforcing with mass cracklings is extremely powerful. He can warp in anything he wants and it just won't compare to a remax on cracklings if he lost most or all of his colossus. The other hidden power of the late game zergling is speed banelings. Late game you may not need to trade efficiently to win the game. You might just need a way to kill his army. In those cases banelings are great because protoss clump up a lot and forcefields get trampled by ultras. | ||
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vsportsguy
United States118 Posts
On May 02 2013 01:22 Qwyn wrote: It's a gimmick. Are you seriously telling me that it's not? Look at how low eco he is. He gets his 3rd at 7:30! The most powerful moments of the whole tourney were not when he pushed with his ultras, but when he prepped muta tech in addition to infestation pit, and used an advantage he gained through positioning (Protoss uncertainty, unfamiliarity). Massing ultras on 3 bases is an allin. You have no eco to do anything else. As much as you want to say that this strategy is going to be the next great thing in ZvP, it's really not. I'm not retarded - I haven't missed the point of this build at all. Don't blindside yourself into following the BO without deviation. Look at Leenock's strongest games with it - 3 out of 7 ZvPs. The build RELIES on Protoss fucking up (bad zealot hold position, bad sim-city) or being unprepared (and it is in response to a 21 Nexus). You saw the beginnings of how Protoss will shut it down (shit on it) in Naniwa's killer timings. Did you happen to listen to Meta last night? There's some really smart dudes with more credentials than I who essentially said the exact same thing. Take the CORE of the build away, and you can use it off a 3 hatch base. 1. Spire and infestation pit. The threat of mutas is such a powerful psychological threat. The utility of these two buildings is probably greater than any other two in the game. With it you have all the tools you need to break a Protoss down. 2. Hive upon seeing third. 3. You have swarm hosts, another utility unit, at your disposal if P should do an allin timing. You are playing low-eco with this build. Staying even with the P is low eco. 48 drones until 9:00 is low eco. It is "safer" than 3 hatch openings, yet in doing it you sacrifice a game winning advantage for faster upgrades. Every timing that was pulled off could be done FASTER, more efficiently, and with more "OOMPH" behind it from a 3 hatch base. Relying on counter attacks to keep you alive until 16:00 ultras, against all the shit P could possibly do against you (timings which will only get more powerful) - is a gimmick. Just think long term. Try to extrapolate WHAT made the build powerful. In a couple weeks it will be completely outdated. It's a specific, allin response to a gateway expand. Think about the core (which is what has got me really fucking excited). (Of course JD beat Naniwa 8 times in a row with it in practice - he had probably never seen it before, - it highlights the obvious weaknesses of 21N (later upgrades), and it's JD FFS). It's catching on more and more as we speak. People are doing it against non gateway openings and winning all the time, it's not reserved for gateway first openings. Your timings show me just how unaware you are. With crisp timings, the first ultras are out by 14:00, not 16:00. There's no reason that you can't take a 3rd at 6:00 (44 supply) just before starting 1/1. That's something I have been doing. Leenock has usually been opting to get an extra round of drones up to 56 supply and getting his 2nd gas before taking his 3rd. Leenock started his 4th at 11:20 in his game vs hero. Is that where you truly think this game is right now? If you don't get as many drones as possible, that you're all-in? I hate to break it to you, but gone are the days where you drone straight to 80 drones. And you're not even with the protoss in drones. Against hero, Leenock was at 48 drones to 37 probes at the 7:35 mark. 54 to 41 at the 8:40ish mark, and Leenock had lost a few drones to oracle harassment as well. I suggest you get your facts right. All I can do is watch high level games, and try the build on my own. And everywhere I see this build, I see success. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 02 2013 02:50 vsportsguy wrote: It's catching on more and more as we speak. People are doing it against non gateway openings and winning all the time, it's not reserved for gateway first openings. Your timings show me just how unaware you are. With crisp timings, the first ultras are out by 14:00, not 16:00. There's no reason that you can't take a 3rd at 6:00 (44 supply) just before starting 1/1. That's something I have been doing. Leenock has usually been opting to get an extra round of drones up to 56 supply and getting his 2nd gas before taking his 3rd. Leenock started his 4th at 11:20 in his game vs hero. Is that where you truly think this game is right now? If you don't get as many drones as possible, that you're all-in? I hate to break it to you, but gone are the days where you drone straight to 80 drones. And you're not even with the protoss in drones. Against hero, Leenock was at 48 drones to 37 probes at the 7:35 mark. 54 to 41 at the 8:40ish mark, and Leenock had lost a few drones to oracle harassment as well. I suggest you get your facts right. All I can do is watch high level games, and try the build on my own. And everywhere I see this build, I see success. If you do this against a forge first and the Protoss just hits a plain gateway timing with +1 or +2 or a sentryheavy push like sentry/immortal you are in an incredible amount of trouble when you rely on pure ling. That build is relying on gateway expands, stargate builds or plainly a defensive/reactive Protoss. However if you scout something else like a gateway allin and you actually know your timings, you should be able to go into a 3base roach or 2base swarm host play instead. | ||
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vsportsguy
United States118 Posts
On May 02 2013 04:49 Big J wrote: If you do this against a forge first and the Protoss just hits a plain gateway timing with +1 or +2 or a sentryheavy push like sentry/immortal you are in an incredible amount of trouble when you rely on pure ling. That build is relying on gateway expands, stargate builds or plainly a defensive/reactive Protoss. However if you scout something else like a gateway allin and you actually know your timings, you should be able to go into a 3base roach or 2base swarm host play instead. It works better vs gateway expands because of the huge upgrade advantage, but people act like it's totally unviable against forge first. I haven't seen or experienced a sentry immortal all-in vs this build yet. You do have 1/1 lings and extra gas. If you can get to hydras in time, you literally have the perfect counter to sentry immortal. I don't know if the timings allow for it or not. Against gateway all-ins speedlings and spines work better than anything else that early. Gateway all-ins are pretty bad nowadays and this build is much safer than 3 hatch is against it, so I don't understand your argument. I don't know why people hate this build, the biggest weakness is in the 12:00 to 14:00 mark before ultras are out. Even the commentators commend protoss' for doing 2 base colossi pushes. They say it counters the fast ultra build and it will be very hard for the zerg to hold. In theory, it should be a huge weakness: zergs are stuck on lings for the core of their army at a relatively late point in the game. However we've seen zergs defend 2 base colossi pushes time and time again. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2781 Posts
"If you don't get as many drones as possible, that you're all-in?" The advantage that you get from a strong economy far outweighs ANY compositional advantage. Against an FFE, your upgrades are going to be on par with the P, so you lose part of the advantage that makes the timing so strong against gateway expands. If you adhere to the same timings against an FFE the P is in all likelihood going to overwhelm you. Nobody HATES the build. But you have to recognize what it is. I've been offering up suggestions for how to adapt the build to 3H play, and help it evolve. The core - the most powerful elements of an adaptation are 3 things: 1. Spire and infestation pit combination. 2. Fast double upgrades. 3. Hive upon seeing 3rd. Take a build skeleton, don't be inflexible. If P does FFE there is NO reason not to 3H and get an advantage. The build simply becomes inferior. | ||
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Channel56k
United States413 Posts
Does this change ZvP..... actually yea it does, quite a bit, too. People are so incredibly used to Zerg being the stale side of the matchup, constantly reacting, that whenever a strict timing is offered up that is not based on reaction to what the protoss is playing, it is considered all-in, gimmicky, and/or flavor of the week. This is how toss plays the matchup. Plans from the start, non-reactionary based timings. Just because the match-up is changing in HoTS doesn't mean it's the wrong way to play it. The build does change the match-up, get over it. It is a match-up that is changing, zerg is a race that is being played differently by many pros around the world. It doesn't mean the old zerg is lost, but is does mean there is a new one up in coming. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2781 Posts
What I'm most excited for are the things that the guys on Meta talked about in EP2. The combination of spire and infestation pit opens up so many options. Sure, add in faster upgrades, and you have so much versatility. This is the core of the build. Zerg is reactionary. But then - so are the OTHER races. Building a spire FORCES a reaction from the toss, a reaction which makes YOUR response potential much more potent. The combination opens up the chance for next level mind games. Builds like this have been used before. For reference, MorroW did a lot of ling/bane play in ZvP when he played Zerg (back before overlord drop was nerfed). I think it's best not to get caught up on the composition so much and focus on the most crucial elements - in this case, the spire, infestation pit, and faster upgrades (sure, and a hive upon seeing a 3rd). | ||
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Channel56k
United States413 Posts
Everyone reacts in a game of starcraft, but that isn't the reaction that has been the staple of Zerg play. This build is huge. Is there a 3 base variation, sure, but why are you all stuck on 3 base? Two base not viable? Maybe not in the past. Full circle you say? This is starcraft man, there is no full-circle. What would full-circle even be? Proxy vultures, 4-gate, Steppes of War, where do you wanna begin the history of meta? | ||
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vsportsguy
United States118 Posts
On May 02 2013 11:55 konicki wrote: This is how toss plays the matchup. Plans from the start, non-reactionary based timings. Just because the match-up is changing in HoTS doesn't mean it's the wrong way to play it. The build does change the match-up, get over it. It is a match-up that is changing, zerg is a race that is being played differently by many pros around the world. It doesn't mean the old zerg is lost, but is does mean there is a new one up in coming. Very good points. I think the reason that I like this build so much is because the timings line up so well. It allows me to really work on my mechanics (it takes good mechanics to properly execute). I don't have to think about my composition, I already know what it's going to be. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2781 Posts
But that doesn't mean that it cannot evolve to be a standard build...I'm calling the build a gimmick - I still think it is. Why not take the principles of the build and adapt them? Is that not a reasonable thing to do? "Protoss going stargate is not a reaction to spire..." I never once mentioned that a Protoss builds a stargate in reaction to a spire. I said that building a spire forces a reaction from Protoss. Whether that is building more phoenix (making your response potential much more potent - you don't have to build mutas at all), or attacking at a timing...it does force a reaction. All races are capable of forcing reactions. The core of infestation pit and spire has the potential to do so much. The game has come full circle many times before. Obviously circumstances are different now - our knowledge is much greater than 2010-2011. The game is different with HOTS. But the idea of getting fast melee/carapace upgrades and using lings against Protoss has been around forever. And it fell out of style due to necessity (reaction). Now, with the rise of gateway first builds AGAIN, it's coming back into style. There's no reason why you can't take the core and make it viable irregardless of what the Protoss is doing, while maximizing economic focus and not putting yourself at a disadvantage simply because you do not want to utilize the aggressive economic potential of zerg (some call it droning). | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On May 02 2013 12:38 Qwyn wrote: This build isn't "huge," lol. It's a gimmick for the reason that you are relying entirely on lings to keep you alive until ultras pop out. But that doesn't mean that it cannot evolve to be a standard build...I'm calling the build a gimmick - I still think it is. Why not take the principles of the build and adapt them? Is that not a reasonable thing to do? "Protoss going stargate is not a reaction to spire..." I never once mentioned that a Protoss builds a stargate in reaction to a spire. I said that building a spire forces a reaction from Protoss. Whether that is building more phoenix (making your response potential much more potent - you don't have to build mutas at all), or attacking at a timing...it does force a reaction. All races are capable of forcing reactions. The core of infestation pit and spire has the potential to do so much. The game has come full circle many times before. Obviously circumstances are different now - our knowledge is much greater than 2010-2011. The game is different with HOTS. But the idea of getting fast melee/carapace upgrades and using lings against Protoss has been around forever. And it fell out of style due to necessity (reaction). Now, with the rise of gateway first builds AGAIN, it's coming back into style. There's no reason why you can't take the core and make it viable irregardless of what the Protoss is doing, while maximizing economic focus and not putting yourself at a disadvantage simply because you do not want to utilize the aggressive economic potential of zerg (some call it droning). ...you just said "irregardless". I have a hard time taking you seriously now. But seriously. I believe pretty strongly that a lot of the games that were played at DH Stockholm were the beginning points to a lot of HotS development. To say that Leenock's fast ultra ZvP or Nani's gate expand into 4-gate PvZ are brilliant strategies is certainly true. However, you have to understand that there were a lot of underlying causes and effects which caused players like JD to do crazy things like 3-hatch before pool and Leenock to just NOT get a 3rd base until well after 7:00 - things which had VERY LITTLE to do with the actual builds they were doing and were simply metagame adjustments for their opponents. Therefore, everyone LISTEN to Qwyn. The build Leenock used is somewhat gimmicky and unlikely to succeed against a well-prepared protoss, but the CORE of it is worth looking at and adjusting. There's no reason to get stuck in the rut of saying "Well, Leenock didn't even take a 3rd base early, so there's no reason why I should even try to take a 3rd so early. No matter what my opponent is doing, I'll just try to get fast ultras and steamroll him." Don't get stuck with your head buried in the build order. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2781 Posts
 ? I'm running out of things to say here (but my excitement for spire/infestation pit cannot be contained). The potential here is overwhelming. I'm also digging the hive timing. Starting your hive as a reaction to seeing a third is a really sick trigger. Your last paragraph really does emphasize what I'm trying to say pretty damn eloquently, lol. Except I came in calling the exact BO a gimmick and so I got into a big argument about it. | ||
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