|
On April 29 2013 12:20 IcemanAsi wrote:
I have to say I saw the last day of the tornument where both JD and Leenock went for this style and I really didn't like it that much. The build seemed to have major vulnrabilites in both early game timings and before the ultras pop, it seemed to rely on protoss making a mistake and losing a lot of units to mid game lings or being too passive and ending up on 3 base versus 5+ situation where zerg wins by attrition.
Perhaps I'm underestimating 2/2 lings versus the lower upgrade protoss army but it seemed to me that every win I saw with this strat was due to some major mistakes on the protoss side.
I think you forgot what NaNiwa said on stage at dh. He said that JD beat him with this strat like 8-0 at the EG.TL House doing the same build each time. If it was easy counterable and relying on the Toss mistakes ,Naniwa would have corrected his mistakes and thus wouldn't have lost 8 times to this strat. I think it's quite a solid build atm.
|
On April 30 2013 02:42 Freshpro59 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 12:20 IcemanAsi wrote:
I have to say I saw the last day of the tornument where both JD and Leenock went for this style and I really didn't like it that much. The build seemed to have major vulnrabilites in both early game timings and before the ultras pop, it seemed to rely on protoss making a mistake and losing a lot of units to mid game lings or being too passive and ending up on 3 base versus 5+ situation where zerg wins by attrition.
Perhaps I'm underestimating 2/2 lings versus the lower upgrade protoss army but it seemed to me that every win I saw with this strat was due to some major mistakes on the protoss side. I think you forgot what NaNiwa said on stage at dh. He said that JD beat him with this strat like 8-0 at the EG.TL House doing the same build each time. If it was easy counterable and relying on the Toss mistakes ,Naniwa would have corrected his mistakes and thus wouldn't have lost 8 times to this strat. I think it's quite a solid build atm.
I don't know, obvioulsy the build works and is being used by top players effectively but it seems really odd to me.
What's stopping protoss from going for a 2base collosus attack, forcing mad amounts of spines and lings and then reaclling and taking his third at the same time as the zerg who just went heavily into ling+spine?
So now we got protoss on three base against zerg on three base where the zerg has upgraded ultra ling against a collosus+immortal+archon composition on three base, which is game over.
I'm guessing the tech rush to ultras is just one option and maybe you can go into spire+spines like in one of the leenock/naniwa games, but if naniwa just reaclls after forcing the spines he's insanely ahead.
|
Hey guys, I had written down the build also, and did my first attempts at it, here's what it looks like to me :
- 15 hatch
- 16 pool / gas
- @completion of pool - 2 Queens, +1 Queen at natural afterwards (total of 3 queens)
- @100 gas - Metabolic boost (leave 3 drones in gas)
Build 2-5 scouting lings for map control
- @200 gas - 2x evo chambers, start 1-1 melee & carapace
- @100 gas - Lair, and take 2nd gas ~~~~~ (benchmark : 7m30s)
Take 3rd expo, +2 Queens, Macro hatch in main, take 3rd and 4th gas
- @Completion of Lair - Infestor Nest ~~~~~ (benchmark : 9m20s, 1-1 is about finishing)
Make 10-15ish lings to deny small pushes and kill pylons
- @Completion of 1-1 upgrades - Start 2-2 upgrades ~~~~~ (benchmark : 9m50s)
Take 4th base
- @Completion of Infestor den - Start Hive ~~~~~ (benchmark : 10m15s)
Build 3 defensive infestors without upgrade
- @Completion of Hive - Adrenaline glands & Ultralisk Den ~~~~~ (benchmark : 12m30s)
- @Completion of 2-2 upgrades - Start 3-3 upgrades ~~~~~ (benchmark : 13m50s)
- @Completion of Ultralisk Den - Ultralisk carapace upgrade
- Pump Ultralisks ~~~~~ (benchmark : 14m00s)
Note that it's taken for granted that you are droning the hell out of all your larvas unless forced to do otherwise by the protoss, or feel that you need to make lings.
To summ things up, you're rushing to Ultralisks, all of your resources going into melee units. All of your gas goes in structures and upgrades excepted for those 3 infestors. The timings are pretty easy to track as it's simply a textbook example of teching chains up to Ultralisk; just gotta click things when the previous item finishes.
How can this work for non-GMs?
#1, Be aggressive with lings and have map control, you can't be caught with your pants down. Your lings are there to deny pushes/pylons/stall as long as possible with counterattacks.
#2, Protoss like to move out with sentries for their 1st push, if you can stall that push long enough, you should win; he'll normally have 1-2 immortals and will have switched to Colossus because he saw only lings all game.
#3, feel free to be reactive even though you're doing this build. If toss is going SkyToss, you might want to have more infestors or make a spire. #3, Creepspread the hell out of the map, it helps ultras a LOT and will save you if you have to defend with banelings.
My remarks regarding this build / what I learned through practice :
1) It's hard at first to get the timings, mainly because I don't know the build by heart yet. As a result, my Ultras arrive around 16 mins and the toss is already attacking me and I have only lings... Which sucks.
2) You float a lot of minerals unless you're real good at taking bases and hitting all injects and making a million lings.
3) Based on the first 2 observations, I did 2 things : #1, dump minerals in more lings and build many static defenses (i.e.: spines or spores, depending on what toss is making). But help A LOT in stalling the engagements. #2, if you're behind in your build timings, make a baneling nest and upgrade banes speed, it helps so much to stop midgame pushes.
I think that's all for now 
1st try : http://drop.sc/329055
2nd try : http://drop.sc/329056
3rd try : http://drop.sc/329057 ~~~~~ Added baneling nest, forced to react in mass mutas
4th try : http://drop.sc/329058
5th try : http://drop.sc/329059 ~~~~~ Best example so far (Ultras out at 15 mins, 1 min behind Leenock's timing, which is awesome... Also added banelings and spines to stall toss' push)
If you don't like replays, they're all on my stream's channel VODs : games of April 28 2013.
|
Hatch first against protoss in ladder ? :o it's very risky ...
|
The hatch first was a meta gaming move vs hero
He thought he would gateway first.
Also. He does not blindly go for ultra. The toss getting a third is the trigger to leenock getting hive --> ultra.
Remember the last game vs naniwa? nani stayed on two bases for a 2 base colli timing.
Leenock scouted it, made a spire. made corruptors 2.2 lings. and many spines. off 3 bases.
|
this build is awesome im using top master na and eu and just need be annoying with zerlings deny 3rd base and making a lot of harras when ultras pop up is gg
|
I was so excited to try to the build that when I got put against a Terran I did it anyway  Seems decent enough.
Even though i was forced into making lots of banes, and a few SH (mech push, kinda nice to have that early Ipit) I still got the ultra cavern down just after 14 min, and my hive was done a while before that. Since it was vs terran I did a gasless 4 queen, and I didn't get 3-3 in time (or really at all :/ ), but had I not had to make gas units I would have. I was winging it, so I put up some buildings blind.
Diamond level play
http://drop.sc/329182
|
|
|
I think it's an extremely risky build and should only be used reactionary, not every game. It is quite fun though I have to say =)
|
On April 30 2013 11:50 Emzeeshady wrote:
Leenock doesn't do this very often. This was a reactionary play and is in no way a build of his.
If u want a legit Ultra build vs Protoss watch Stephano's games. He went all ling with fast upgrades into quick Ultra basically every game vs Toss.
He did it 1 out of 2 games against Hero. He did it 2 out of 5 games against Naniwa. He won all of those games. And yes, this is a blind build. He starts 1/1 before the protoss goes down any significant tech route. However, there are variations in the amount of lings he produces and how quickly he goes for hive.
For example, in the last game against Naniwa, he scouted a 2 base colossi all-in, so he delayed his infestation pit and opted for a spire. He went ling, corrupter, queen, and spines to defend the push. After he defended the push he went for hive tech. His ultras were out in time to defend Naniwa's followup push: archon immortal.
This is an amazing build. 2 base all-ins will be tough to defend with just lings and spines, but when your ultra's pop you have a VERY early timing where you will be on 3/3 with ultra, crackling, infestor, queen. At the 14-15 min mark, that combo seems unbeatable.
|
On April 30 2013 04:19 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 02:42 Freshpro59 wrote:On April 29 2013 12:20 IcemanAsi wrote:
I have to say I saw the last day of the tornument where both JD and Leenock went for this style and I really didn't like it that much. The build seemed to have major vulnrabilites in both early game timings and before the ultras pop, it seemed to rely on protoss making a mistake and losing a lot of units to mid game lings or being too passive and ending up on 3 base versus 5+ situation where zerg wins by attrition.
Perhaps I'm underestimating 2/2 lings versus the lower upgrade protoss army but it seemed to me that every win I saw with this strat was due to some major mistakes on the protoss side. I think you forgot what NaNiwa said on stage at dh. He said that JD beat him with this strat like 8-0 at the EG.TL House doing the same build each time. If it was easy counterable and relying on the Toss mistakes ,Naniwa would have corrected his mistakes and thus wouldn't have lost 8 times to this strat. I think it's quite a solid build atm. I don't know, obvioulsy the build works and is being used by top players effectively but it seems really odd to me. What's stopping protoss from going for a 2base collosus attack, forcing mad amounts of spines and lings and then reaclling and taking his third at the same time as the zerg who just went heavily into ling+spine? So now we got protoss on three base against zerg on three base where the zerg has upgraded ultra ling against a collosus+immortal+archon composition on three base, which is game over. I'm guessing the tech rush to ultras is just one option and maybe you can go into spire+spines like in one of the leenock/naniwa games, but if naniwa just reaclls after forcing the spines he's insanely ahead.
Naniwa tried a 2 bases colossus last game against Leenock, he just put a spire and made a round of corruptor when protoss moves out.
|
On April 30 2013 22:34 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 04:19 IcemanAsi wrote:On April 30 2013 02:42 Freshpro59 wrote:On April 29 2013 12:20 IcemanAsi wrote:
I have to say I saw the last day of the tornument where both JD and Leenock went for this style and I really didn't like it that much. The build seemed to have major vulnrabilites in both early game timings and before the ultras pop, it seemed to rely on protoss making a mistake and losing a lot of units to mid game lings or being too passive and ending up on 3 base versus 5+ situation where zerg wins by attrition.
Perhaps I'm underestimating 2/2 lings versus the lower upgrade protoss army but it seemed to me that every win I saw with this strat was due to some major mistakes on the protoss side. I think you forgot what NaNiwa said on stage at dh. He said that JD beat him with this strat like 8-0 at the EG.TL House doing the same build each time. If it was easy counterable and relying on the Toss mistakes ,Naniwa would have corrected his mistakes and thus wouldn't have lost 8 times to this strat. I think it's quite a solid build atm. I don't know, obvioulsy the build works and is being used by top players effectively but it seems really odd to me. What's stopping protoss from going for a 2base collosus attack, forcing mad amounts of spines and lings and then reaclling and taking his third at the same time as the zerg who just went heavily into ling+spine? So now we got protoss on three base against zerg on three base where the zerg has upgraded ultra ling against a collosus+immortal+archon composition on three base, which is game over. I'm guessing the tech rush to ultras is just one option and maybe you can go into spire+spines like in one of the leenock/naniwa games, but if naniwa just reaclls after forcing the spines he's insanely ahead. Naniwa tried a 2 bases colossus last game against Leenock, he just put a spire and made a round of corruptor when protoss moves out.
Yes, and Naniwa tried breaking it when he should have just recalled after forcing the spines and taken a third. I think.
|
On April 30 2013 23:39 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 22:34 Vanadiel wrote:On April 30 2013 04:19 IcemanAsi wrote:On April 30 2013 02:42 Freshpro59 wrote:On April 29 2013 12:20 IcemanAsi wrote:
I have to say I saw the last day of the tornument where both JD and Leenock went for this style and I really didn't like it that much. The build seemed to have major vulnrabilites in both early game timings and before the ultras pop, it seemed to rely on protoss making a mistake and losing a lot of units to mid game lings or being too passive and ending up on 3 base versus 5+ situation where zerg wins by attrition.
Perhaps I'm underestimating 2/2 lings versus the lower upgrade protoss army but it seemed to me that every win I saw with this strat was due to some major mistakes on the protoss side. I think you forgot what NaNiwa said on stage at dh. He said that JD beat him with this strat like 8-0 at the EG.TL House doing the same build each time. If it was easy counterable and relying on the Toss mistakes ,Naniwa would have corrected his mistakes and thus wouldn't have lost 8 times to this strat. I think it's quite a solid build atm. I don't know, obvioulsy the build works and is being used by top players effectively but it seems really odd to me. What's stopping protoss from going for a 2base collosus attack, forcing mad amounts of spines and lings and then reaclling and taking his third at the same time as the zerg who just went heavily into ling+spine? So now we got protoss on three base against zerg on three base where the zerg has upgraded ultra ling against a collosus+immortal+archon composition on three base, which is game over. I'm guessing the tech rush to ultras is just one option and maybe you can go into spire+spines like in one of the leenock/naniwa games, but if naniwa just reaclls after forcing the spines he's insanely ahead. Naniwa tried a 2 bases colossus last game against Leenock, he just put a spire and made a round of corruptor when protoss moves out. Yes, and Naniwa tried breaking it when he should have just recalled after forcing the spines and taken a third. I think.
Well forcing spine is not that big of a deal when is on 3 bases and enough drone, if he had recalled and tried to secure a third, Leenock would had enough time to make a 4th base and hit with a maxed army on Ultralisk before the third base of Naniwa really kicks in.
|
I've done it a lot with my teammates, it's biggest strength is the upgrades. That being said, you do this build against gateway expand, not forge expand.
|
Northern Ireland25618 Posts
On April 30 2013 00:34 dunkincrsip wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 23:34 onewaystyx wrote:
I actually really dislike this build. Considering that toss will always get +3 attack before zerg this build is really risky. If he scouts this build (which naniwa did after seeing fast doulbe evo he knew what was coming), you can counter it really easily. Immortals stalkers and especially archons do overwhelming damage to the ultras. That the lings are completely useless vs +3 archons is self explanatory. If protoss doesnt scout it and gets a too colo based army then yes, the build should work, but if you get scouted the protoss can easily adapt and beat it with ease. stalkers do NOT do overwhelming damage to ultras, neither do archons, immortal count wont be very high due to the need of collossi production and templar tech in the midgame. if protoss could beat this with ease then why did hero, one of the better protoss on the planet have so little success?
I'm convinced HerO would have won that game on Whirlwind if it wasn't for the runby, he looked to have a good counter-build but screwed up and deservedly lost.
It's a good build by the looks of it, but it's a pretty new style so I'd be interested to see what adjustments Toss make to deal with it.
|
Artosis is doing his new show, cant remember the name or have a link, on this build. If someone has a link or information on that show, pls post it.
Also if someone has a way of making the build in the OP more legible, easier to follow pls say. Someone else wrote the build down nicely, although one thing i would change is the evo timing. It's not a big diff, but if you start them at 200 gas your 1-1 are actually 20 - 30 seconds slower which can be .... well big i guess.
|
I don't think this build is that solid. It seems sort of gimmicky. If Protoss pushes out with 2-3 collosus and range you will not be able to hold with just lings/spines. I think maybe transitioning from roach/ling into a tad later ultras is more safe.
|
I really don't like this build at all. Almost every Zerg I have played has been doing it and most of them are completely falling apart to any sort of pressure in the early game, even crappy stuff like 4gate with msc since they are running on such a shoe-string defence of only lings and queens. It seems to rely more on Protoss making mistakes in the midgame than anything (accidentally splitting army because of pathing. Not paying attention to army, moving out in the open so you can be surrounded). Playing an upgrade-oriented style with a focus on immortal/archon/zealot and defensively expanding seems to work quite well against it since this build is essentially an all-in because of how many corners you have to cut to do it properly.
It's just another flavour of the week build that will be gone quickly once the counter is figured out.
|
Thanks for writing up this build! Wrecking low Masters protoss so hard with this stuff! Been looking for some good two base openers with the rise of gateway openings and that pressure.
|
This is a really interesting build. I think it also would've worked in WoL. What all zergs did to respond to a FFE from P was to just take a quick 3rd and be as economical as possible. Teching fast off of 2 bases was not common at all, and also wasn't the best. Although Life did it a bit especially around TSL4. But here Leenock instead of going for early tech off of 2 base, decides to go for upgrades, then takes his 3rd. It's just as late-game focused as a 3 hatch gasless opening, but instead focuses on upgrades instead of drones and expansions. Its also much safer since you get that ling speed fairly quick.
The 3rd timing is pretty smart with this build. He takes it just as he saturates his first 2 bases and when P would be gearing up for a 2 base push, giving him a perfect opportunity to make lings, since he is just waiting for his base to finish to make more drones anyway. He could probably even make some drones with the 3rd inject after dropping the 3rd during some 2 base P pushes.
But not missing larva injects is key, as with any ling 2 base openers - every larva counts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
