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sambo400
United States378 Posts
I think Utras are always your best option until they are literally on nothing but air units. A few ultras are useful if they have any templars/archons on the ground. I listened to goswser talk about this and its essentially the same thing he said. Ultras are even useful for running around air armies and killing bases on a map like Whirlwind. If toss gets to pure air with templar to zone you out and you can't keep their bases in check, I don't think zerg can win. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 22 2013 14:37 sambo400 wrote: ^^ I disagree with swarm hosts against pure ground. Ultras and infestors are so much more effective. Locusts just die if they have 2 or more colossus left. Your supply/gas can be better spent. I think Utras are always your best option until they are literally on nothing but air units. A few ultras are useful if they have any templars/archons on the ground. I listened to goswser talk about this and its essentially the same thing he said. Ultras are even useful for running around air armies and killing bases on a map like Whirlwind. If toss gets to pure air with templar to zone you out and you can't keep their bases in check, I don't think zerg can win. Yeah I disagree with you for many many reasons. As I said before free units, also takes more then 2 colossi takes 4+ before locusts stop doing damage but you also have to remember if 4 colossi are all focusing on locust waves the rest of your units aren't getting hit by them. I have been doing this since end of beta and I have maintained 70% win ratio and if it hits late game I rarely, rarely lose. When I lose it's because of a major fuck up by me. Also pure air + templar isn't that good. I literally have replays + in the youtube video show casing how to fight it. Like at least watch some of the replays so you can see before saying something not true. I literally don't lose to pure air + templar if anything I win those games a lot easier then other compositions because air can't kill locusts fast enough so templar have to run far back, then hydra/viper just abducts and crushes it. | ||
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uh-oh
Hong Kong135 Posts
Im protoss and when you go skytoss you should: -Never fly your carriers out on open ground unless you are absolutely certain I can win a direct fight -Always fly around corners/dead space/cliffs which means when you fight the ground and air armies are separated, and your carriers have a better chance of survival even if they get pulled, phoenixes will help clear out vision and oracles will make sure his army's not knocking on your front door. Distract with zealots/dts when necessary -Always attack from cliffs/dead space where, again, if he chooses to fight his ground and air army will be separated, if he chooses to not fight then he will lose a base at minimum. Even if he pulls in stuff with vipers you still have a chance of escaping up cliffs/dead space to get out of range. Doing this basically means you are taking down bases for free!(ok maybe the cost of one or two carriers is not free but I'll still take that trade any day to gas starve a zerg) -Always focus down vipers, a fleet of 8 carriers have at least 250 dps and 14 range once interceptors are launched, use that wisely. Phoenixes help a lot too in fights with hydra viper, either by driving back vipers or just killing hydras -Always bring the mothership core along Like a mech army, losing more than half of a carrier fleet is unacceptable. It's not an easily replaceable colossi deathball so keep the fleet alive at all costs! Recall obviously helps a lot. -Always chrono boost upgrades! if you want faster carrier production just get more stargates, +3 weapons before 18 minutes is essential so you can start armor/shield asap. Each weapon upgrade increases carrier damage by 20% of the original and each armor point from the enemy decreases the damage to the same extent! This is why chronos should be prioritized on upgrades instead of carriers even though you instinctively want to do that! | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20284 Posts
for corruptors though, zerg usually does not have +3 air armor at 15-18 minutes and having +1/+2/+3 attack upgrades over him means you do 4/5/6 damage instead of 3, it's just night and day difference, not a slight or even a big boost. Overanalyzing a bit | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On April 22 2013 03:14 blade55555 wrote:
Sounds a bit odd. Ultralisks do quite poor vs zealots, archons, and immortals. HT deal with hydras and vipers well. If you forgot to mention stalker and sentry, then this sounds a fair bit more viable since ultralisks break forcefields and mash stalkers pretty well. Queen broodlord and infestor (or mutalisk if there's no stalker or sentries) sounds more effective to me personally, but I could be wrong | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 22 2013 15:30 Cyro wrote: Carriers do 5 damage and corruptors have 2 base armor - counting +attack as only +20% damage per level is a mistake, even in worst cases (hydralisks) it's more useful than that - being 1 upgrade up kills them in 14 hits instead of 17 - but you only do 16 hits per 8 interceptors in the first volley, you can just have a much easier time launching and pulling back interceptors with ai targetting (if a single carrier targets a hydralisk alone, it will kill it near instantly instead of waiting for the literal 3 second ROF or for another carrier to finish it) for corruptors though, zerg usually does not have +3 air armor at 15-18 minutes and having +1/+2/+3 attack upgrades over him means you do 4/5/6 damage instead of 3, it's just night and day difference, not a slight or even a big boost. Overanalyzing a bit Ah this actually is something I forgot to answer. corruptors, the reason I do not make corruptors is a good protoss will have voidrays with his carriers and corruptors just get shit on really bad. It is a reason I don't go corruptors. . Now if I kill all the voidrays and I engage his army, kill a good chunk but lose all my hydra I might make some corruptors to finish the rest of the carrier/tempests (whichever he chooses), but otherwise corruptors are a waste of resources as voidrays kill them way to fast. On April 22 2013 15:32 Xapti wrote: Sounds a bit odd. Ultralisks do quite poor vs zealots, archons, and immortals. HT deal with hydras and vipers well. If you forgot to mention stalker and sentry, then this sounds a fair bit more viable since ultralisks break forcefields and mash stalkers pretty well. Queen broodlord and infestor (or mutalisk if there's no stalker or sentries) sounds more effective to me personally, but I could be wrong Ultras actually rape zealots now. They do pretty well vs archons and immortals still pwn them obviously. Also notice how it's pure ground army and broodlord/hydra/ultra/viper/swarmhost. Not just ultra/hydra/viper, as you are correct a pure ground army will smash ultra/hydra/viper, you need swarmhosts or broodlords. | ||
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ETisME
12351 Posts
The biggest problem for me is to how and where to move them around. There are times I can't see the enemy army with my locust and my creep were denied early on. next thing I know, they were going another attack path and I had to sac a base. Another similar situation, I pull'd back my swarm host because I saw them in the creep, then by the time they were burrowed, the spawn locust animation gave enough time for the protoss to just a move, kills all the locust, continue pushing while I have to pull back my swarm host and half of my swarm hosts die before they get reburrowed... it's really frustrating, I really can't understand the mindset of swarm host movement at all | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On April 22 2013 15:33 blade55555 wrote: Ultras actually rape zealots now. They do pretty well vs archons and immortals still pwn them obviously. Also notice how it's pure ground army and broodlord/hydra/ultra/viper/swarmhost. Not just ultra/hydra/viper, as you are correct a pure ground army will smash ultra/hydra/viper, you need swarmhosts or broodlords. Oh right I totally forgot about ultralisk change, lol. Yeah I could see that doing well then. That change was so overdue | ||
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uh-oh
Hong Kong135 Posts
On April 22 2013 15:30 Cyro wrote: for corruptors though, zerg usually does not have +3 air armor at 15-18 minutes and having +1/+2/+3 attack upgrades over him means you do 4/5/6 damage instead of 3, it's just night and day difference, not a slight or even a big boost. Overanalyzing a bit That's underanalysing every interceptor attacks twice and each carrier has eight interceptors, so it's actually 64/80/96 instead of 48 for corruptors and 96/112/128 instead of 80 for hydras per round of interceptor strike. +3 weapon actually makes carriers 33%/66%/100% more dps vs corruptors and 20%/40%/60% more dps vs hydras (without armor) No units in starcraft scales this crazily with upgrades, even marines only get +50% dps with +3 weapons vs unarmored stuff I don't know about you but 100% more dps sounds like a really big boost | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
Also to people saying mass air/templar beats this. It does not. Not even close (It is one-sided in Zerg's favour usually). If you think Air-based builds beat this then you have never faced this done right and/or not seen it played properly. Swarm hosts zone the templar (or really any ground units) out so you can never attack without making a huge commitment. If a Zerg plays this strategy correctly the templar will never be able to get in range to feedback vipers or land storms. The swarm hosts will chip away at the ground portion of the Protoss army until it falls apart then the hydras and vipers will wipe out the air. If the first wave doesn't outright kill them then the inevitable remax will since Zerg will have been banking resources and larva for a while. The reason I imply it is in a way one strategy or idea (I say this, rather than these) is because in reality, it is one composition that is modified to match the enemy. The 12-14 swarm hosts, hydras, and vipers will always be there, it is just a matter of what the opponent is using that dictates whether or not to throw in ultras. It is a very simple, straight-forward concept of a way to play the late game that will sadly likely be made overly complex by people thinking too much. Also, swarm hosts openings are SO GOOD. At worst they contain Protoss and force them down a tech path that is easy to exploit, at best they outright win the game. The only time they don't work is if you are too aggressive and move your swarm hosts too close to their base and let them die. If you do things right you will force them to make 4-5 colossi at minimum, which can be exploited very easily. You must learn to utilize the range. Once you do the swarm host becomes one of the most powerful units in the game. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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ApocAlypsE007
Israel1007 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On April 22 2013 09:54 Tuczniak wrote: This is pretty funny. I doubt it was trolling though. It's serious, blade can't write for shit (no offense ♥) and all the TL Strat stuff is peer reviewed anyway. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 22 2013 17:13 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: I have a question: How do you approach upgrades? I think you need Ultras fully upgraded to be effective. Should I go tripple Evo and play a more passive mid game than I usually do vs Protoss? (I try to kill them in the midgame with waves of Roaches, Lings and later Hydras) I do +1 missile, +1 carapace and +2 air. Once +3 air finishes then I start +1 melee. I haven't done triple evo but once you get hive you can triple evo though. On April 22 2013 17:37 Teoita wrote: It's serious, blade can't write for shit (no offense ♥) and all the TL Strat stuff is peer reviewed anyway. I don't think you get it, I spelled grammar wrong LOL. Monk pointed it out to me haha ^^. | ||
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Renzin
Australia75 Posts
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brotosterone
United States260 Posts
On April 22 2013 17:53 blade55555 wrote: I don't think you get it, I spelled grammar wrong LOL. Monk pointed it out to me haha ^^. On the topic of grammar: I read most of your guides since they are so awesome. However, you tend to mix up "than" and "then" a lot, and even the people who peer review them miss them at times too. There is one "then" and "than" mix up in your original post (in the versus skytoss section): "... keep in mind that no more then 14 are needed." It's subtle, but with the incredible quality of your content, I think you should try to break this habit! Anyways, great guide! Thanks again for all of your contributions, blade. | ||
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 22 2013 19:38 Renzin wrote: Just saw the video and came to this, great work with the guide and thankyou for making this! Makes the protoss deathball seem not so invincible now =) And lawdy that was fun to watch the blinding cloud+ultra+sh+brood lord demolition at the end of the video! Just wait till you do it yourself. It's extremely satisfying haha  | ||
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DHD
United States18 Posts
u need a sponsor blade55555 , ur play and knowledge is on par with some that are currently featured on stream list imho. | ||
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Purce
Italy31 Posts
Gogogo! | ||
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