Hello and welcome to a guide on how to beat late game Protoss! I have seen many, many complaints on how late game ZvP is impossible, so this guide will attempt to show Zerg players how to play the late game correctly and win. I am a Grandmaster Zerg player on the NA server with a 70% win ratio in ZvP. In addition, I am high masters on the Korean server with a ZvP win ratio of 66%. I rarely lose in the late game even when Protoss gets voidray/colossi, voidray/templar/colossi, or any other composition of their choosing.
This guide will be going over how to engage the late game and what composition Zerg players should be going for. At the end of the guide, I will be putting up a few replays from the Korean server that go in late game showcasing how to engage. This guide is only going to be about late game ZvP. If you are looking for a guide that features all around ZvP, check out my previous guide here.
The Unit Compositions
First off, we should identify the types of armies a late-game Protoss can make. Each type of army will have a different unit composition response from a Zerg player. Late game Protoss deathball compositions fall into three categories.
Pure ground army (colossi/templar/archon/immortal/chargelot without any air units)
Response: ultralisk/hydralisk/swarm host/brood lord/viper The Zerg should start out with this base composition, adding in brood lords when resources allow. Infestors are also an option you may want to mix in.
Sky-toss (carrier/tempest/voidray with a templar transition)
Response: hydralisk/swarm host/viper Once templar are out, add in 3-5 ultralisks. Make sure to have 12-14 swarm hosts, but keep in mind that no more than 14 are needed. Making more will just be wasted supply that you could have used for hydras or ultras.
Air/ground mix (voidray/templar, voidray/colossi or voidray/colossi/templar)
Response: hydralisk/ultralisk/swarm host/viper The Zerg player should also be adding in infestors later on once he can afford it, especially when the Protoss adds in templar. An ideal mix is about 12-14 swarm hosts, 3-5 ultra, 3-4 vipers, rest hydralisks.
Why these units?
The purpose of the ultralisk is to tank damage from colossi and templar. This makes it so that hydralisks aren’t as vulnerable to storms or colossi splash damage. The ultralisk also dishes out a lot of damage and will kill colossi/templar quickly, which makes hydralisks and vipers even stronger. With the splash damage mitigated by the ultralisks, it will be very hard for a Protoss army to kill ultra/hydra/viper/swarm host.
The swarm host fills the same role as the ultra, but also used as a way of when to engage. What I mean by this, is that you can get free vision with the locusts so that zerg can see where the protoss army is and what it composes of. You should be timing your attacks with the locust waves. The swarm hosts let loose locusts so the Zerg can always know where the army is and how it is set up. The locusts also both dish out and tank quite a bit of damage. This makes them very useful in the engagement against templar/colossi as they tank and dish out the damage needed to get rid of the splash. They are also free units, so doing minimal damage with them is fine as you will gain information on how the Protoss is positioned as they die.
The role of the hydralisk is to clean up air forces. If they survive a fight, they can also help clean out stalker/archon/immortals.
Vipers will be used to abduct colossi and throw down blinding clouds. This unit makes it much easier to deal with colossi. If the Zerg is facing voidray/colossi without templar, this unit is a must.
The infestor's role is really simple: to lock down the army. With HotS, infested terrans are useless in the late game and fungals will be the only purpose of the infestor.
How To Engage
The late game scenario really comes down to engagements. How you engage the late game army matters just as much as the unit composition you choose. A Zerg who is engaging the late game Protoss army voidray/templar, voidray/colossi, voidray/colossi/templar should not be engaging in a small choke. Engaging in a small choke will favor the Protoss and will result in your army not doing anywhere near as much damage as it should to the Protoss.
The more open ground there is, the better, so try to engage in as much open space as possible. Make sure that ultralisks and the locusts from swarm hosts engage the Protoss army first. Do not lead the charge with your hydralisks or vipers. If you make this mistake, colossi/templar will be able to kill the hydralisks while your ultralisks and locusts are stuck behind. The result is that you will lose the fight very badly.
The Zerg should always be leading with ultralisks and locusts with hydras and vipers following behind. This makes it a lot harder for a Protoss player to kill the hydralisks because ultralisks and locusts are in the way. If the Protoss has his templar in the front, he’s going to lose them while the Zerg will have his hydralisks in the back, safe and sound as the splash from Protoss dies. Blinding cloud and abduct are great spells to use here to yank the colossi and to reduce immortals/stalkers/colossi to melee range with blinding cloud.
Depending on how you engage the army, the Zerg player has a good chance to win the ground fight. However, depending on how many storms/colossi were hitting hydralisks, will probably lose every hydralisk and the Protoss will have void rays left over. This is normal and not a big concern. As long as the Zerg player retreats surviving ultralisks and swarm hosts, a remax of hydralisks will clean the rest of the void rays. The Zerg should then be able to simply attack and win, because that Protoss deathball will take too much time to remake. The key point to take from this is that less splash that hits the hydralisks, the better the fight will go for the Zerg player.
Zerg players can put down static defense to help when engaging the main Protoss army, but this isn’t a requirement. For example, I don’t put any static defense in locations to engage the Protoss army. However, putting some spore crawlers at a common attack location isn’t a bad idea because if the Zerg has to pull back, he can pull back into a secure location while waiting for reinforcements. Again, this is not necessary to engage the Protoss army and should be used as more of a falling back point rather than an engagement necessity.
If the Protoss player is going pure ground with no air units, engaging in a small choke isn’t going to favor the Protoss as long as the Zerg has brood lords, which the Zerg should have once he notices there is no air. You only require around six broodlords, which should be supported by swarm host/ultra/viper/hydra support. However, more brood lords are also acceptable. This combination of units makes it really hard for the Protoss to ever engage the Zerg army, similar to how it was in WoL. This is the only situation where engaging in a small choke will be better for the Zerg than the Protoss.
Note: These replays are all from the Korean server and all of them showcase some late game engagements against Protoss. In a lot of these games, I started off economically behind, but was still able to kill the Protoss deathball in the late game. In total, there are ten replays and I will add more as I get them.
Youtube Video
A huge shoutout to Monk for editing this and fixing some of my awful grammar!
So basically spire is only for surprise muta until the very lategame in your opinion?
Do you even think going broodlords against pure ground is any good? It's quite easy for protoss to mix in a few tempests imo, so unless you suprise protoss somehow. I doubt it's ever really good to go for broods, swarmhosts just seem to do what they do better in ZvP.
I do find it strange though you don't even suggest corruptor against skytoss. In general I agree corruptors should be avoided mostly as viper / ultra counter colossi much better but against carrier play you simply need corruptors.
Overall though i'm curious to know a bit more in detail what the difference for you between swarm hosts and ultra's is. They both serve a fairly similar role of tanking damage and have fairly similar mineral/gas ratio's. Against the protoss ground army with maybe a minimal air splash, ie standard lasertoss on 3 base, what order of getting this mix do you suggest? Swarm hosts -> viper -> ultra? or rushing viper/ultra first then swarmhosts later? Personally I think the latter is better and swarmhosts are more the really late thing but I wonder what you suggest. I just feel pure ultra is often better than ultra/swarmhost as well for buffering, swarmhosts tends to make zerg really slow and protoss just killing 2 bases and recalling is more problematic with them i think.
Just finished reading/watching the YT video. Great stuff!
I am currently stuck on the 3 base ~11:00 max roach style, which isn't a guaranteed win, so the transition out of that is tough for me. For a style such as this, would you recommend not fully committing to so many roaches/lings with a 3 base opening like that, maybe more gas/tech instead of units?
I guess much of it varies depending on what your opponent is doing, but input is appreciated. :D
On April 22 2013 04:01 crfty wrote: Just finished reading/watching the YT video. Great stuff!
I am currently stuck on the 3 base ~11:00 max roach style, which isn't a guaranteed win, so the transition out of that is tough for me. For a style such as this, would you recommend not fully committing to so many roaches/lings with a 3 base opening like that, maybe more gas/tech instead of units?
I guess much of it varies depending on what your opponent is doing, but input is appreciated. :D
I recommend reading the Swarmhost opening Blade described in his guide. It gives a lot a flexibility and control over the course of the game, is an autowin versus an immortal/sentry allin, and allows you to dictate the pace of the game in my opinion !
As a protoss who particularly hates zerg, I'm not really sure what you guys are supposed to even do. Late game feels heavily imbalanced in favor of toss. I think the most effective strategy I have seen so far (against a late game ground army) is to take a battle and then re max on ultras (as many as you can). Ultras are really hard to kill and they should chase away/ kill every ground unit if protoss is in bad position.
Swarm hosts haven't been so effective against me, probably because I dislike air and stay on colossus longer than I should.
(Masters Protoss btw)
Also I think adding a few tempests with ground armies sucks and I'd rather have voids and storm with blink stalkers and a few colossus.
Yet another fantastic contribution from blade. As a huge swarmhost fan, I love watching you utilize them, and am grateful that you have provided such helpful resources for those of us who want to learn to use them more effectively.
Do you have any general rule of thumb regarding how far away to burrow your hosts from the opponent's army, or do you just go by what feels right? My biggest issue is that I tend to always burrow them too close, since I naturally want to get as much out of the locusts' timer as possible. However this often results in my opponent being able to get right on top of my hosts and slaughtering them all, resulting in a gg most of the time.
I do have one question: I am a diamond zerg, and I use mass mutalisk to beat protoss. This seems to be pretty effective. Yet, nowhere in this guide does it recommend mutas. I'm wondering: Do mutalisks not work in higher leagues simply due to better macro/control or are mutas another viable option? Or do mutas not fall into the "lategame ZvP" category? Thanks!
On April 22 2013 08:41 DenTenker wrote: Great guide blade!
I do have one question: I am a diamond zerg, and I use mass mutalisk to beat protoss. This seems to be pretty effective. Yet, nowhere in this guide does it recommend mutas. I'm wondering: Do mutalisks not work in higher leagues simply due to better macro/control or are mutas another viable option? Or do mutas not fall into the "lategame ZvP" category? Thanks!
Masters Protoss here, and I actually don't mind when Zergs go for Mutalisk at all, but then again I open with 4 Phoenixes in almost every PvZ I play. Honestly, Phoenixes are a pretty brutal counter to Mutas no matter how much you commit to them. In high numbers with +2 range Phoenixes are just kind of silly. In low numbers of Phoenix vs Muta you can demolish them even without range, depending on your micro.
On April 22 2013 08:41 DenTenker wrote: Great guide blade!
I do have one question: I am a diamond zerg, and I use mass mutalisk to beat protoss. This seems to be pretty effective. Yet, nowhere in this guide does it recommend mutas. I'm wondering: Do mutalisks not work in higher leagues simply due to better macro/control or are mutas another viable option? Or do mutas not fall into the "lategame ZvP" category? Thanks!
I'm also at the diamond level (random), and I consistently smash any kind of muta play in PvZ because stargate openers let you get out a few phoenix, and that extra +1 range makes micro so much easier, and once you get the range upgrade, the mutas just get torn apart.
^^ Thanks guys. I was wondering why mutas weren't mentioned. Looks early phoenix play crushes them. The only losses I've had with mutas is to early phoenix builds. I guess in higher leagues that becomes standard. Looks like I have to change my ZvP. Thanks again!
On April 22 2013 03:52 Markwerf wrote: So basically spire is only for surprise muta until the very lategame in your opinion?
Do you even think going broodlords against pure ground is any good? It's quite easy for protoss to mix in a few tempests imo, so unless you suprise protoss somehow. I doubt it's ever really good to go for broods, swarmhosts just seem to do what they do better in ZvP.
I do find it strange though you don't even suggest corruptor against skytoss. In general I agree corruptors should be avoided mostly as viper / ultra counter colossi much better but against carrier play you simply need corruptors.
Overall though i'm curious to know a bit more in detail what the difference for you between swarm hosts and ultra's is. They both serve a fairly similar role of tanking damage and have fairly similar mineral/gas ratio's. Against the protoss ground army with maybe a minimal air splash, ie standard lasertoss on 3 base, what order of getting this mix do you suggest? Swarm hosts -> viper -> ultra? or rushing viper/ultra first then swarmhosts later? Personally I think the latter is better and swarmhosts are more the really late thing but I wonder what you suggest. I just feel pure ultra is often better than ultra/swarmhost as well for buffering, swarmhosts tends to make zerg really slow and protoss just killing 2 bases and recalling is more problematic with them i think.
Mutas are viable it's just that their not a late game unit composition and I am not a fan of mass mass muta as you won't be able to fight the toss army head on and have to base trade which I find boring and not very fun.
Also the swarmhost is available from the second lair is finished and you shouldn't lose them where as ultra isn't until late game. Also swarmhosts throw out free units so you as the zerg can see where the army is and lose free units and deal free damage with free units. Swarmhosts are so sick mid game they are so underused ^^. Also vs anything I do swarmhost -> viper -> ultra. It's way stronger then trying to rush ultra and it crushes any fast 3 base push as well.
On April 22 2013 04:01 crfty wrote: Just finished reading/watching the YT video. Great stuff!
I am currently stuck on the 3 base ~11:00 max roach style, which isn't a guaranteed win, so the transition out of that is tough for me. For a style such as this, would you recommend not fully committing to so many roaches/lings with a 3 base opening like that, maybe more gas/tech instead of units?
I guess much of it varies depending on what your opponent is doing, but input is appreciated. :D
No do not commit to roach/ling or you will still die to colossi timings if you don't do enough damage with it.
On April 22 2013 07:42 sambo400 wrote: As a protoss who particularly hates zerg, I'm not really sure what you guys are supposed to even do. Late game feels heavily imbalanced in favor of toss. I think the most effective strategy I have seen so far (against a late game ground army) is to take a battle and then re max on ultras (as many as you can). Ultras are really hard to kill and they should chase away/ kill every ground unit if protoss is in bad position.
Swarm hosts haven't been so effective against me, probably because I dislike air and stay on colossus longer than I should.
(Masters Protoss btw)
Also I think adding a few tempests with ground armies sucks and I'd rather have voids and storm with blink stalkers and a few colossus.
I am pretty sure you didn't read this guide, watch the youtube video or at least check out the replays as I literally go over the late game and how to beat every composition late game :p.
A huge shoutout to Monk for editing this and fixing some of my awful grammer!
Can't tell if this is troll or serious. Nice guide.
You will never know, thanks!
On April 22 2013 08:02 Frankie Teardrop wrote: Yet another fantastic contribution from blade. As a huge swarmhost fan, I love watching you utilize them, and am grateful that you have provided such helpful resources for those of us who want to learn to use them more effectively.
Do you have any general rule of thumb regarding how far away to burrow your hosts from the opponent's army, or do you just go by what feels right? My biggest issue is that I tend to always burrow them too close, since I naturally want to get as much out of the locusts' timer as possible. However this often results in my opponent being able to get right on top of my hosts and slaughtering them all, resulting in a gg most of the time.
Far enough away so that if the protoss army pushes I can get my swarmhosts away no problem. Don't burrow them close always start further back and move a little closer if you feel you can.
A huge shoutout to Monk for editing this and fixing some of my awful grammer!
Can't tell if this is troll or serious. Nice guide.
This is pretty funny. I doubt it was trolling though.
You will never know!
On April 22 2013 10:41 DenTenker wrote: ^^ Thanks guys. I was wondering why mutas weren't mentioned. Looks early phoenix play crushes them. The only losses I've had with mutas is to early phoenix builds. I guess in higher leagues that becomes standard. Looks like I have to change my ZvP. Thanks again!
I didn't mention mutalisks because they aren't a late game army composition. If you are going mass mass muta you are going for a base trade and that's not a style I am a fan of ^^.
^^ I disagree with swarm hosts against pure ground. Ultras and infestors are so much more effective. Locusts just die if they have 2 or more colossus left. Your supply/gas can be better spent.
I think Utras are always your best option until they are literally on nothing but air units. A few ultras are useful if they have any templars/archons on the ground. I listened to goswser talk about this and its essentially the same thing he said. Ultras are even useful for running around air armies and killing bases on a map like Whirlwind.
If toss gets to pure air with templar to zone you out and you can't keep their bases in check, I don't think zerg can win.
On April 22 2013 14:37 sambo400 wrote: ^^ I disagree with swarm hosts against pure ground. Ultras and infestors are so much more effective. Locusts just die if they have 2 or more colossus left. Your supply/gas can be better spent.
I think Utras are always your best option until they are literally on nothing but air units. A few ultras are useful if they have any templars/archons on the ground. I listened to goswser talk about this and its essentially the same thing he said. Ultras are even useful for running around air armies and killing bases on a map like Whirlwind.
If toss gets to pure air with templar to zone you out and you can't keep their bases in check, I don't think zerg can win.
Yeah I disagree with you for many many reasons. As I said before free units, also takes more then 2 colossi takes 4+ before locusts stop doing damage but you also have to remember if 4 colossi are all focusing on locust waves the rest of your units aren't getting hit by them. I have been doing this since end of beta and I have maintained 70% win ratio and if it hits late game I rarely, rarely lose. When I lose it's because of a major fuck up by me.
Also pure air + templar isn't that good. I literally have replays + in the youtube video show casing how to fight it. Like at least watch some of the replays so you can see before saying something not true. I literally don't lose to pure air + templar if anything I win those games a lot easier then other compositions because air can't kill locusts fast enough so templar have to run far back, then hydra/viper just abducts and crushes it.
Things like those in the video happens because protoss think of their carrier fleets like colossi deathballs... Im protoss and when you go skytoss you should: -Never fly your carriers out on open ground unless you are absolutely certain I can win a direct fight -Always fly around corners/dead space/cliffs which means when you fight the ground and air armies are separated, and your carriers have a better chance of survival even if they get pulled, phoenixes will help clear out vision and oracles will make sure his army's not knocking on your front door. Distract with zealots/dts when necessary -Always attack from cliffs/dead space where, again, if he chooses to fight his ground and air army will be separated, if he chooses to not fight then he will lose a base at minimum. Even if he pulls in stuff with vipers you still have a chance of escaping up cliffs/dead space to get out of range. Doing this basically means you are taking down bases for free!(ok maybe the cost of one or two carriers is not free but I'll still take that trade any day to gas starve a zerg) -Always focus down vipers, a fleet of 8 carriers have at least 250 dps and 14 range once interceptors are launched, use that wisely. Phoenixes help a lot too in fights with hydra viper, either by driving back vipers or just killing hydras -Always bring the mothership core along Like a mech army, losing more than half of a carrier fleet is unacceptable. It's not an easily replaceable colossi deathball so keep the fleet alive at all costs! Recall obviously helps a lot. -Always chrono boost upgrades! if you want faster carrier production just get more stargates, +3 weapons before 18 minutes is essential so you can start armor/shield asap. Each weapon upgrade increases carrier damage by 20% of the original and each armor point from the enemy decreases the damage to the same extent! This is why chronos should be prioritized on upgrades instead of carriers even though you instinctively want to do that!
Carriers do 5 damage and corruptors have 2 base armor - counting +attack as only +20% damage per level is a mistake, even in worst cases (hydralisks) it's more useful than that - being 1 upgrade up kills them in 14 hits instead of 17 - but you only do 16 hits per 8 interceptors in the first volley, you can just have a much easier time launching and pulling back interceptors with ai targetting (if a single carrier targets a hydralisk alone, it will kill it near instantly instead of waiting for the literal 3 second ROF or for another carrier to finish it)
for corruptors though, zerg usually does not have +3 air armor at 15-18 minutes and having +1/+2/+3 attack upgrades over him means you do 4/5/6 damage instead of 3, it's just night and day difference, not a slight or even a big boost.
Pure ground army (colossi/templar/archon/immortal/chargelot without any air units)
Response: ultralisk/hydralisk/swarm host/brood lord/viper The Zerg should start out with this base composition, adding in brood lords when resources allow. Infestors are also an option you may want to mix in.
Sounds a bit odd. Ultralisks do quite poor vs zealots, archons, and immortals. HT deal with hydras and vipers well. If you forgot to mention stalker and sentry, then this sounds a fair bit more viable since ultralisks break forcefields and mash stalkers pretty well. Queen broodlord and infestor (or mutalisk if there's no stalker or sentries) sounds more effective to me personally, but I could be wrong
On April 22 2013 15:30 Cyro wrote: Carriers do 5 damage and corruptors have 2 base armor - counting +attack as only +20% damage per level is a mistake, even in worst cases (hydralisks) it's more useful than that - being 1 upgrade up kills them in 14 hits instead of 17 - but you only do 16 hits per 8 interceptors in the first volley, you can just have a much easier time launching and pulling back interceptors with ai targetting (if a single carrier targets a hydralisk alone, it will kill it near instantly instead of waiting for the literal 3 second ROF or for another carrier to finish it)
for corruptors though, zerg usually does not have +3 air armor at 15-18 minutes and having +1/+2/+3 attack upgrades over him means you do 4/5/6 damage instead of 3, it's just night and day difference, not a slight or even a big boost.
Overanalyzing a bit
Ah this actually is something I forgot to answer.
corruptors, the reason I do not make corruptors is a good protoss will have voidrays with his carriers and corruptors just get shit on really bad. It is a reason I don't go corruptors. . Now if I kill all the voidrays and I engage his army, kill a good chunk but lose all my hydra I might make some corruptors to finish the rest of the carrier/tempests (whichever he chooses), but otherwise corruptors are a waste of resources as voidrays kill them way to fast.
[list][*]Pure ground army (colossi/templar/archon/immortal/chargelot without any air units)
Response: ultralisk/hydralisk/swarm host/brood lord/viper The Zerg should start out with this base composition, adding in brood lords when resources allow. Infestors are also an option you may want to mix in.
Sounds a bit odd. Ultralisks do quite poor vs zealots, archons, and immortals. HT deal with hydras and vipers well. If you forgot to mention stalker and sentry, then this sounds a fair bit more viable since ultralisks break forcefields and mash stalkers pretty well. Queen broodlord and infestor (or mutalisk if there's no stalker or sentries) sounds more effective to me personally, but I could be wrong
Ultras actually rape zealots now. They do pretty well vs archons and immortals still pwn them obviously. Also notice how it's pure ground army and broodlord/hydra/ultra/viper/swarmhost. Not just ultra/hydra/viper, as you are correct a pure ground army will smash ultra/hydra/viper, you need swarmhosts or broodlords.
I always lose whenever I start adding in swarm hosts. The biggest problem for me is to how and where to move them around. There are times I can't see the enemy army with my locust and my creep were denied early on. next thing I know, they were going another attack path and I had to sac a base.
Another similar situation, I pull'd back my swarm host because I saw them in the creep, then by the time they were burrowed, the spawn locust animation gave enough time for the protoss to just a move, kills all the locust, continue pushing while I have to pull back my swarm host and half of my swarm hosts die before they get reburrowed...
it's really frustrating, I really can't understand the mindset of swarm host movement at all
On April 22 2013 15:33 blade55555 wrote: Ultras actually rape zealots now. They do pretty well vs archons and immortals still pwn them obviously. Also notice how it's pure ground army and broodlord/hydra/ultra/viper/swarmhost. Not just ultra/hydra/viper, as you are correct a pure ground army will smash ultra/hydra/viper, you need swarmhosts or broodlords.
Oh right I totally forgot about ultralisk change, lol. Yeah I could see that doing well then. That change was so overdue
for corruptors though, zerg usually does not have +3 air armor at 15-18 minutes and having +1/+2/+3 attack upgrades over him means you do 4/5/6 damage instead of 3, it's just night and day difference, not a slight or even a big boost.
Overanalyzing a bit
That's underanalysing
every interceptor attacks twice and each carrier has eight interceptors, so it's actually 64/80/96 instead of 48 for corruptors and 96/112/128 instead of 80 for hydras per round of interceptor strike. +3 weapon actually makes carriers 33%/66%/100% more dps vs corruptors and 20%/40%/60% more dps vs hydras (without armor)
No units in starcraft scales this crazily with upgrades, even marines only get +50% dps with +3 weapons vs unarmored stuff
I don't know about you but 100% more dps sounds like a really big boost
As a Protoss I both hate you for posting this (because it will inevitably lead to me losing more because people will actually use swarm hosts), but I also appreciate that you have posted this. I've been trying to tell Zerg players that they need to use swarm hosts in the mid and late game since the game launched but I usually just get told I am crazy and that swarm hosts are a useless waste of supply, too weak, too expensive, etc.. They are such an important unit for Zerg in the late game. They are not only one of the best "meat shield" units available (never ending free units that have a fair amount of health!) but they also do so much damage and are one of the best zoning units in the game.
Also to people saying mass air/templar beats this. It does not. Not even close (It is one-sided in Zerg's favour usually). If you think Air-based builds beat this then you have never faced this done right and/or not seen it played properly. Swarm hosts zone the templar (or really any ground units) out so you can never attack without making a huge commitment. If a Zerg plays this strategy correctly the templar will never be able to get in range to feedback vipers or land storms. The swarm hosts will chip away at the ground portion of the Protoss army until it falls apart then the hydras and vipers will wipe out the air. If the first wave doesn't outright kill them then the inevitable remax will since Zerg will have been banking resources and larva for a while.
The reason I imply it is in a way one strategy or idea (I say this, rather than these) is because in reality, it is one composition that is modified to match the enemy. The 12-14 swarm hosts, hydras, and vipers will always be there, it is just a matter of what the opponent is using that dictates whether or not to throw in ultras. It is a very simple, straight-forward concept of a way to play the late game that will sadly likely be made overly complex by people thinking too much.
Also, swarm hosts openings are SO GOOD. At worst they contain Protoss and force them down a tech path that is easy to exploit, at best they outright win the game. The only time they don't work is if you are too aggressive and move your swarm hosts too close to their base and let them die. If you do things right you will force them to make 4-5 colossi at minimum, which can be exploited very easily. You must learn to utilize the range. Once you do the swarm host becomes one of the most powerful units in the game.
I have a question: How do you approach upgrades? I think you need Ultras fully upgraded to be effective. Should I go tripple Evo and play a more passive mid game than I usually do vs Protoss? (I try to kill them in the midgame with waves of Roaches, Lings and later Hydras)
On April 22 2013 17:13 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: I have a question: How do you approach upgrades? I think you need Ultras fully upgraded to be effective. Should I go tripple Evo and play a more passive mid game than I usually do vs Protoss? (I try to kill them in the midgame with waves of Roaches, Lings and later Hydras)
I do +1 missile, +1 carapace and +2 air. Once +3 air finishes then I start +1 melee.
I haven't done triple evo but once you get hive you can triple evo though.
Just saw the video and came to this, great work with the guide and thankyou for making this! Makes the protoss deathball seem not so invincible now =) And lawdy that was fun to watch the blinding cloud+ultra+sh+brood lord demolition at the end of the video!
A huge shoutout to Monk for editing this and fixing some of my awful grammer!
Can't tell if this is troll or serious. Nice guide.
This is pretty funny. I doubt it was trolling though.
It's serious, blade can't write for shit (no offense ♥) and all the TL Strat stuff is peer reviewed anyway.
I don't think you get it, I spelled grammar wrong LOL. Monk pointed it out to me haha ^^.
On the topic of grammar:
I read most of your guides since they are so awesome. However, you tend to mix up "than" and "then" a lot, and even the people who peer review them miss them at times too. There is one "then" and "than" mix up in your original post (in the versus skytoss section):
"... keep in mind that no more then 14 are needed."
It's subtle, but with the incredible quality of your content, I think you should try to break this habit!
Anyways, great guide! Thanks again for all of your contributions, blade.
Going to take some time to digest this, but off the cuff I love the Swarm Host utility. Personally I know I am still struggling to find a place for them, but I am very interested to see what your replays have to offer in the way of late game.
On April 22 2013 19:38 Renzin wrote: Just saw the video and came to this, great work with the guide and thankyou for making this! Makes the protoss deathball seem not so invincible now =) And lawdy that was fun to watch the blinding cloud+ultra+sh+brood lord demolition at the end of the video!
Just wait till you do it yourself. It's extremely satisfying haha
how do you feel about mixing in 8 or so queens? really think they can add a lot especially with transfuse and their tankiness + lot of creepspread. are you having queens with your army or just 5 or so to inject?
On April 23 2013 06:49 Decendos wrote: how do you feel about mixing in 8 or so queens? really think they can add a lot especially with transfuse and their tankiness + lot of creepspread. are you having queens with your army or just 5 or so to inject?
I don't' make extra queens. I am sure it's fine and all but I find it incredibly boring and I am just not a fan of mass queen styles. To slow when off creep and just kind of a boring mass unit imo that I am just not a fan of.
It's viable and it's probably good but thankfully it's not the only way nor imo the best way (or the worst way). Luckily right now in hots there are a couple different ways to play late game zvp which is really nice and you don't have to do my way or have to do the mass queen way.
"ultralisk/hydralisk/swarm host/brood lord/viperThe Zerg should start out with this base composition, adding in brood lords when resources allow. Infestors are also an option you may want to mix in."
I like the composition, I'm just worried about how many drones and hydras I can squeeze in. Say you have 4 ultras, that's 24 psi, 12 swarm hosts are 36 psi, 3 infestors are 9 psi, 5 brood lords are 25 psi, 3 vipers is 6 psi, 30 hydras is 60 psi.
24 + 36 + 9 + 25 + 6 + 60 = 160, that leavs room for 40 drones
On April 23 2013 13:21 Gene(S)is wrote: "ultralisk/hydralisk/swarm host/brood lord/viperThe Zerg should start out with this base composition, adding in brood lords when resources allow. Infestors are also an option you may want to mix in."
I like the composition, I'm just worried about how many drones and hydras I can squeeze in. Say you have 4 ultras, that's 24 psi, 12 swarm hosts are 36 psi, 3 infestors are 9 psi, 5 brood lords are 25 psi, 3 vipers is 6 psi, 30 hydras is 60 psi.
24 + 36 + 9 + 25 + 6 + 60 = 160, that leavs room for 40 drones
Perhaps I miscalculated though >.<
You are miscalculating. You should have 80 drones 75-80 drones. You have to also remember less air = less hydra. If he's not making air then no hydra and main army will consist of ultra/viper/swarmhost/broodlord.
Been watching Blade's videos and reading his guides for a long time now, and I can say everything he has taught about has vastly improved my game
was stuck in plat for a long time (all throughout WoL, and now HoTS)
sticking to his macro playstyle, I am about to get into masters on NA and I got into diamond on KR
This current guide on the late game toss, has been amazing, since, I thought I had to go corruptors to even stand a chance, but I can say its all about the vipers for the late game. And swarm hosts to hold back the toss until u can get the viper / ultras out on the field.
Abducting colossi / carriers / tempests above your hydra army leads to very big smiling zerg face
Thx again for the awesome guide and keep up the great work
On April 22 2013 19:38 Renzin wrote: Just saw the video and came to this, great work with the guide and thankyou for making this! Makes the protoss deathball seem not so invincible now =) And lawdy that was fun to watch the blinding cloud+ultra+sh+brood lord demolition at the end of the video!
Just wait till you do it yourself. It's extremely satisfying haha
Oh YES it is ! Thanks to you for all your advices !
I noticed one protoss composition you don't mention in the OP is Tempest / Colossus / Templar / Stalker. Similar composition would be Tempest / Colossus / Templar / VR. These compositions are a little different than VR / Collosus / Templar, because the addition of the tempest allows protoss to camp over either static defense or a templar ball and storm / feedback away corruptors and vipers.
It seems to me that the result of this protoss composition is a micro war between vipers trying to abduct with corruptors trying to snipe colossus vs. templar trying to feedback vipers and storm corruptors. Templars and tempest have the range advantage in this scenario. If the protoss succeeds in preventing the corruptors and vipers from sniping too many units, the tempest and colossi can slowly push into zerg's static defense and eventually control the map. Blink stalkers are a second mobile anti-corruptor or viper unit. VRs would occupy the same space (more powerful, but less mobile). Even without VR or stalkers, tempest / colossus / templar stands powerfully against air and most ground. An exception might be mass ultras, but in this case protoss can add VR or immortal.
Tempests are a siege unit that ultimately force an engagement on protoss terms. Do you find that you can overwhelm the tempest / collosus / templar / (VR or stalker) composition? If so, what is your late game plan when protoss's plan is to slowly push across the map atop templars + defensive units like VR, stalker, cannon, etc.?
I didn't talk about tempests because honestly I think mass tempests suck. It's the same composition though as before ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper.
The reason I say mass tempests suck is their DPS isn't good at all and they can't kill swarmhosts locusts or ultras very fast at all which leaves colossi/templar a lot easier to kill just because tempests DPS is low especially compared to the voidray which kills anything in seconds.
On April 27 2013 11:45 Jintoss wrote: So... as toss how do you win late game engagements vs. a zerg who knows what he's doing?
Well it comes down to army composition and how you engage. Templar/colossi/archon/immortal/voidray is a super good composition vs this, but it's not unkillable just like zergs army. Comes down to where you engage, how you engage and all that. Did you get the feedbacks off on vipers? Did you catch his army out of position? Did you engage in a choke (this favors toss), etc. Just goes down to many things ^_^
On August 19 2013 04:07 ETisME wrote: Is there any reason why we rarely see this unit comp from korean zvp? It seems this strategy is only popular on ladder and foreign players.
No idea, the thing is no big name player as ever really tried this style so nobody really knows about it. It's kind of how it works is when a big named player does it (say soulkey/jaedong/etc) in a match then it would be used a lot more.
I don't have a definite answer as I can't talk to them (or really any pro's) and ask them why they haven't tried x composition vs protosses y comp.
On August 19 2013 04:07 ETisME wrote: Is there any reason why we rarely see this unit comp from korean zvp? It seems this strategy is only popular on ladder and foreign players.
No idea, the thing is no big name player as ever really tried this style so nobody really knows about it. It's kind of how it works is when a big named player does it (say soulkey/jaedong/etc) in a match then it would be used a lot more.
I don't have a definite answer as I can't talk to them (or really any pro's) and ask them why they haven't tried x composition vs protosses y comp.
Because according to ig.Jim interview, it seems he faced it quite a bit on ladder as well (and thinks it is problematic) Oh well, I guess maybe the Koreans are just slow to catchup metagame like the infestor change in wol
On August 19 2013 04:07 ETisME wrote: Is there any reason why we rarely see this unit comp from korean zvp?
Because the author is toying around on NA against 95% half-casual players. Do you really think that the Koreans aren't coming up with new strategies and figure out what's working and what not? Or what do you believe they are doing in 10 hours of practice a day? Anything works against non-Koreans.
Swarm hosts just don't work unless you play them in a style with mass spines/spores and the intention to slowly whittle away your opponent. If you play a 'normal' style (ie. not relying on mass static defense) you're just better off going without swarm hosts. Swarm hosts are not hard to attack into if not covered by static defense, 2 hydra's instead of the swarm host for example will do better in pretty much any situation where it will come down to just 1 fight. Besides that swarm hosts make your army quite slow and harder to split up which can easily be abused by top protosses if you don't have the static defense (plus a map that supports it). Swarm hosts need some altering imo where they are better for use as a burst unit / addition to your main army and worse at the role of "I whittle you to do death while I sit behind my spore/spine wall". (my favorite way to do this would be buffing the locusts hp but letting them decay hp over time instead of giving them a timer => much stronger as a burst unit used in fights but much weaker when trying to kill something at super long range by themselves)
On August 19 2013 04:07 ETisME wrote: Is there any reason why we rarely see this unit comp from korean zvp?
Because the author is toying around on NA against 95% half-casual players. Do you really think that the Koreans aren't coming up with new strategies and figure out what's working and what not? Or what do you believe they are doing in 10 hours of practice a day? Anything works against non-Koreans.
Fyi I have beaten korean GM players with this style... I only play on korean server. Should probably read the op before looking like an idiot.
If you read the bottom:
Note: These replays are all from the Korean server and all of them showcase some late game engagements against Protoss. In a lot of these games, I started off economically behind, but was still able to kill the Protoss deathball in the late game. In total, there are ten replays and I will add more as I get them.
EPT
Thanks again! 
!
