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On April 09 2013 08:29 Rekatan wrote:
16 is optimal mining, while 24 is maximum mining. That said, I do (if I don't feel pressured) like to go to 60 drones on 2 bases. Sometimes I'll allow my main to mine out, but if I'm playing clean I'll pull 6-8 off main and nat to help my 3rd establish, and push that one up to 20+ if need be, since it has more time left on it. Thanks for the reminder btw I've been forgetting to do that lately! That said, an issue I always have is consistency, so don't be afraid to assume "he forgot" or "his build changed unintentionally". I am by no means a precision player like Stephano who can repeat the same build order every game down to the second. It's just not in my blood and I find I actually play worse when I do it. That said though, I always aspire to become more consistent without stifling creativity/flexibility :D so hopefully this gradually continues to improve.
Ah, okay so my 16 wasn't way off ^^ and now I also understand why you got to 60 drones, awesome! And yes, I do see changes in your build, but so far I've labled them as unintentional changes. I chose to learn the build from a replay where you sit steadily at 2 bases and just macros without being pressured or pressuring yourself.
On April 09 2013 11:31 H2OSno wrote:
Why don't you ever make 1-2 infestors to Fungal Growth units and not let them escape? Seems a good way to force trades.
This is an interesting point. To me it seems like you don't really "need" infestors. You will eventually nibble the opponent down anyways and he has to constantly reposition his army and make trades against free units anyway. I think infestors could probably end the game quite quickly if you get two good fungles off, but it also seem very micro intensive since the SH's alone(not to mention no rally point on queens) takes a lot of effort as it is.
But, I agree with H2OSno here, I'd really like to see Rekatan add in an infestor or two and analyze the result :D
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On April 09 2013 11:31 H2OSno wrote:
Why don't you ever make 1-2 infestors to Fungal Growth units and not let them escape? Seems a good way to force trades.
WIth fungal growth lasting such a short duration now, I'd rather more swarmhosts and earlier vipers. If it lasted the old 8 second duration though, would totally be worth it.
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If the Protoss commits to Colossi, I find Spire tech for Corruptors usually seal the deal much better than Hydras. This is because, to me, Hydras are great at shredding Gateway units and defending against most Stargate play. However, SHs are already very cost-efficient against Gateway and Queens accomplish the same thing against air. By adding in Corruptors, you gain the ability to snipe the Colossi quickly and remove a significant chunk of DPS for the Protoss, which is pretty crucial against Locusts. With the high number of Queens for Transfuse, the Corruptors become extremely durable and effective.
The one problem I have had with this is it leaves your SHs vulnerable between Locust spawns because you lack supporting units on the ground. To help against this, I use Speedlings as a buffer between the Protoss and SHs. I use them as a kind of fleshy Force Field to keep Stalkers and Zealots off of the SHs until the next batch is ready. Once the next Locust spawn is up, I just move them back and replace what was lost.
And this is just a side note about your replay with Huk. Early in the game when he was shooting his own Nexus with the Cannon, he was trying to get your Overlord. If you shoot the Overlord immediately, the Zerg just moves it back with no harm done. If you shoot the Nexus and let the Overlord get on top of the Cannon (no " your forces are under attack" warning), the Zerg won't always notice there is a Cannon there until it's too late.
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On April 10 2013 00:41 BallsOfSteel wrote:
If the Protoss commits to Colossi, I find Spire tech for Corruptors usually seal the deal much better than Hydras. This is because, to me, Hydras are great at shredding Gateway units and defending against most Stargate play. However, SHs are already very cost-efficient against Gateway and Queens accomplish the same thing against air. By adding in Corruptors, you gain the ability to snipe the Colossi quickly and remove a significant chunk of DPS for the Protoss, which is pretty crucial against Locusts. With the high number of Queens for Transfuse, the Corruptors become extremely durable and effective.
The one problem I have had with this is it leaves your SHs vulnerable between Locust spawns because you lack supporting units on the ground. To help against this, I use Speedlings as a buffer between the Protoss and SHs. I use them as a kind of fleshy Force Field to keep Stalkers and Zealots off of the SHs until the next batch is ready. Once the next Locust spawn is up, I just move them back and replace what was lost.
And this is just a side note about your replay with Huk. Early in the game when he was shooting his own Nexus with the Cannon, he was trying to get your Overlord. If you shoot the Overlord immediately, the Zerg just moves it back with no harm done. If you shoot the Nexus and let the Overlord get on top of the Cannon (no " your forces are under attack" warning), the Zerg won't always notice there is a Cannon there until it's too late.
Ah very cool note regarding huk shooting his nexus. That was very confusing :D . I more and more am feeling that some corruptors would be good vs opponents who have not opened stargate. I'm reluctant to get corruptors if I already see the possibility of voidrays though, since they melt them so so fast.
Still though, more and more as players are improving vs SH I am finding double robo+blinksters difficult to deal with once they are 6+ colossus, so I may be moving into some corruptors when necessary as much as I hate the unit to the core of my soul!
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Russian Federation50 Posts
I'm finding that hydras are almost useless if you can get more queens. Sure, they're much harder to build, but getting 200/200 of SH/viper/queen is so much better than having hydras in the mix. On the other hand, hydras are great for remaxing because with macro hatches you should have stockpiled a huge amount of larva (also remember to inject every time you collect new queens).
Can't wait to see how you use it vs terran, I can't imagine how you deal with drops using this strategy.
Also, gotta love when toss makes a mothership.. abducting it always makes me lol.
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i'm interested to see his solution to drops by terran as well. i've been playing this a lot the last few days and i've finally started to win games vs MMM with SH/hydra/infestor. leaving 4-8 hydras where terran can drop and playing very defensively. fungal + locusts really wrecks the bio ball. vs mech you just go for vipers instead of infestors and pull their expensive units into your locusts.
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On April 10 2013 01:38 d07.RiV wrote:
I'm finding that hydras are almost useless if you can get more queens. Sure, they're much harder to build, but getting 200/200 of SH/viper/queen is so much better than having hydras in the mix. On the other hand, hydras are great for remaxing because with macro hatches you should have stockpiled a huge amount of larva (also remember to inject every time you collect new queens).
Can't wait to see how you use it vs terran, I can't imagine how you deal with drops using this strategy.
Also, gotta love when toss makes a mothership.. abducting it always makes me lol.
I've found that hydras add some much needed DPS behind the locust spawns though, queens kind of tend to tickle things to death.
And ya mothership abducts are hilarious :D . I wonder if blizzard knew how comical that would look.
On April 10 2013 02:48 meijin wrote:
i'm interested to see his solution to drops by terran as well. i've been playing this a lot the last few days and i've finally started to win games vs MMM with SH/hydra/infestor. leaving 4-8 hydras where terran can drop and playing very defensively. fungal + locusts really wrecks the bio ball. vs mech you just go for vipers instead of infestors and pull their expensive units into your locusts.
Updating with a link to my first of many ZvT casts as I begin to develop this into a ZvP & ZvT guide
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On April 09 2013 21:00 Rekatan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 11:31 H2OSno wrote:
Why don't you ever make 1-2 infestors to Fungal Growth units and not let them escape? Seems a good way to force trades. WIth fungal growth lasting such a short duration now, I'd rather more swarmhosts and earlier vipers. If it lasted the old 8 second duration though, would totally be worth it.
Maybe not before you have 15+ swarmhosts. It seems after that, infestors would be more effective for forcing trades than more swarmhosts.
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On April 10 2013 11:03 H2OSno wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 21:00 Rekatan wrote:On April 09 2013 11:31 H2OSno wrote:
Why don't you ever make 1-2 infestors to Fungal Growth units and not let them escape? Seems a good way to force trades. WIth fungal growth lasting such a short duration now, I'd rather more swarmhosts and earlier vipers. If it lasted the old 8 second duration though, would totally be worth it. Maybe not before you have 15+ swarmhosts. It seems after that, infestors would be more effective for forcing trades than more swarmhosts.
Ya you're probably right, a couple might really pay off well pre-ht
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On April 10 2013 11:53 Rekatan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 11:03 H2OSno wrote:On April 09 2013 21:00 Rekatan wrote:On April 09 2013 11:31 H2OSno wrote:
Why don't you ever make 1-2 infestors to Fungal Growth units and not let them escape? Seems a good way to force trades. WIth fungal growth lasting such a short duration now, I'd rather more swarmhosts and earlier vipers. If it lasted the old 8 second duration though, would totally be worth it. Maybe not before you have 15+ swarmhosts. It seems after that, infestors would be more effective for forcing trades than more swarmhosts. Ya you're probably right, a couple might really pay off well pre-ht
And obviously vipers have been discussed as being exceptionally efficient for forcing trades. But with making infestor/viper/swarm host, you come up with one of the most cost efficient, but also gas expensive compositions in the game. And truly, by the time you can amass such a large army, the game will probably have progressed past the point where swarm hosts are most useful.
With this in mind, vipers or infestors? IYO.
EDIT: Spelling.
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On April 11 2013 00:07 H2OSno wrote:
And truly, by the time you can amass such a large army, the game will probably have progressed past the point where swarm hosts are most useful.
Care to elaborate? Rekatan is clearly demonstrating that swarm hosts can work well all game long - I'm not sure why you are saying that they become less useful as the game progresses.
As far as "infestors vs vipers" goes, he covers this in his casts; the short version is Infestors vs bio, Vipers vs mech.
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On April 11 2013 00:07 H2OSno wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 11:53 Rekatan wrote:On April 10 2013 11:03 H2OSno wrote:On April 09 2013 21:00 Rekatan wrote:On April 09 2013 11:31 H2OSno wrote:
Why don't you ever make 1-2 infestors to Fungal Growth units and not let them escape? Seems a good way to force trades. WIth fungal growth lasting such a short duration now, I'd rather more swarmhosts and earlier vipers. If it lasted the old 8 second duration though, would totally be worth it. Maybe not before you have 15+ swarmhosts. It seems after that, infestors would be more effective for forcing trades than more swarmhosts. Ya you're probably right, a couple might really pay off well pre-ht And obviously vipers have been discussed as being exceptionally efficient for forcing trades. But with making infestor/viper/swarm host, you come up with one of the most cost efficient, but also gas expensive compositions in the game. And truly, by the time you can amass such a large army, the game will probably have progressed past the point where swarm hosts are most useful. With this in mind, vipers or infestors? IYO. EDIT: Spelling.
I don't really feel that there's ever a point (in ZvP) where you want less than 16 swarmhosts. That tends to lose games from my experience, since viper/queen/hydra is SO dependent on that buffer.
That said though, viper/infestor/sh/queen would be pretty amazing if you have the APM for it haha.
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On April 11 2013 00:49 Hairy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 00:07 H2OSno wrote:
And truly, by the time you can amass such a large army, the game will probably have progressed past the point where swarm hosts are most useful. Care to elaborate? Rekatan is clearly demonstrating that swarm hosts can work well all game long - I'm not sure why you are saying that they become less useful as the game progresses. As far as "infestors vs vipers" goes, he covers this in his casts; the short version is Infestors vs bio, Vipers vs mech.
I just meant that the principle effectiveness (cost efficiency) degrades over time because larger armies will clear the waves of locusts faster. As the game progresses, the larger armies and options for harass means slow swarmhosts will take a backseat against more traditional zerg endgame armies. At least that's what it seems to me, unless you prevent the protoss from taking a third completely.
I still think swarmhosts become "weaker" (not weak, just not AS strong), as the game progresses. Is that a fair statement?
Regardless, 2 infestors or vipers might be better for forcing trades than 3 more swarm hosts after you have a large swarmhost brood. You get more effectiveness and cost efficiency out of the viper or infestor because you get to kill units (abduct, fungal growth) that would other be able to escape the slow locusts.
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United States4883 Posts
On April 11 2013 02:35 H2OSno wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 00:49 Hairy wrote:On April 11 2013 00:07 H2OSno wrote:
And truly, by the time you can amass such a large army, the game will probably have progressed past the point where swarm hosts are most useful. Care to elaborate? Rekatan is clearly demonstrating that swarm hosts can work well all game long - I'm not sure why you are saying that they become less useful as the game progresses. As far as "infestors vs vipers" goes, he covers this in his casts; the short version is Infestors vs bio, Vipers vs mech. I just meant that the principle effectiveness (cost efficiency) degrades over time because larger armies will clear the waves of locusts faster. As the game progresses, the larger armies and options for harass means slow swarmhosts will take a backseat against more traditional zerg endgame armies. At least that's what it seems to me, unless you prevent the protoss from taking a third completely. I still think swarmhosts become "weaker" (not weak, just not AS strong), as the game progresses. Is that a fair statement? Regardless, 2 infestors or vipers might be better for forcing trades than 3 more swarm hosts after you have a large swarmhost brood. You get more effectiveness and cost efficiency out of the viper or infestor because you get to kill units (abduct, fungal growth) that would other be able to escape the slow locusts.
I think the whole idea behind Rekatan's build and use of SH is to constantly keep the opponent's army fairly small through the use of control locust trading mixed with fungal or abduct. That being said, there really shouldn't be a time when your opponent's army gets "too large" for SH to handle. And at that point, Rekatan generally indicates that you should start doing multi-pronged SH attacks to slowly starve your opponent. In other words, if you're trading well with your opponent while constantly shutting down your opponent's bases, you should never run into a mass colossus/archon/void ray ball.
As a little idea, Rekatan, you should try doing the 4-infestor hitsquads in the late lategame; it's the same as splitting off a few swarm hosts, but less supply.
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@H2OSno: It's true that as your enemy gains a larger and/or higher tier army, your swarm hosts by themselves will become less effective. However, as you go into lategame your army composition changes too; you will be gradually swapping the swarm host "support" part of your army for higher value units (eg swapping roaches out for infestors), and very lategame even swapping drone army supply out for alternatives. Your army "maturing" in this way keeps the swarm hosts relevant.
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On April 11 2013 03:03 Hairy wrote:
@H2OSno: It's true that as your enemy gains a larger and/or higher tier army, your swarm hosts by themselves will become less effective. However, as you go into lategame your army composition changes too; you will be gradually swapping the swarm host "support" part of your army for higher value units (eg swapping roaches out for infestors), and very lategame even swapping drone army supply out for alternatives. Your army "maturing" in this way keeps the swarm hosts relevant.
^ I couldn't have said it better myself!!!
As for infestor hit squads, I like it! It's definitely true that when it comes to sniping a nexus 4 full infestors will do the job quicker, more reliably,and with less supply tied down, than swarmhosts.
Good call! One more reason I should get just a few infestors each game.
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On April 12 2013 00:44 DaemonX wrote:
I love this thread.
Me too! :D I'm learning a lot and getting a lot of great ideas from all the feedback/discussion, so it's helping me up my game too!
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Hey rekatan and everyone else who answered my question. I forgot to say thank you  Also, when do you typically stream rekatan? These VODS are really fun to watch. I want to see more Swarm Hosts!
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Thought I should mention that Day[9] is covering swarmhost-based ZvP by CatZ in episode #570. Interesting to compare and contrast...
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EPT
