EPTJust wanted to point that out and maybe you already do that, but I heard no comment on it in the first VOD(as stated, I haven't seen the other one yet :D), well...going to continue watching now, great stuff as always :D!
[D] High Level Mass SH Build with VOD - Page 7
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PwFClockWise
Sweden49 Posts
Just wanted to point that out and maybe you already do that, but I heard no comment on it in the first VOD(as stated, I haven't seen the other one yet :D), well...going to continue watching now, great stuff as always :D! | ||
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Rekatan
United States172 Posts
On April 14 2013 23:24 d07.RiV wrote: I ran that on unit tester, 20 queens can handle 20 voids with practically no losses, as long as voids focus fire the queens, because it is so so so much easier to spam transfuse on a single queen, and nearly impossible if half your queens are taking damage at the same time (keep in mind that in this case most transfuses will do overhealing so you will run out of energy very quickly). Actually I found vipers to be extremely important to have if they try to transition into collosi (which they will most likely do when they see your SH numbers). If you get them too late, the collosi mass will simply walk over you. What do you do if they transition into tempest? Queens are pretty useless against those, as they simply get oneshot with no chance for transfuse, and if they can hold the locust off long enough for tempests to chew through your queen/hydra, there is no way to stop them with this comp. Should I drop a spire and be ready to mass corruptors when I see a fleet beacon? They should do fine vs carries too. I still like queen/hydra vs tempest until their numbers are really high. I find drop play to be very good too, since tempest don't do well once split up. | ||
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d07.RiV
Russian Federation50 Posts
On April 14 2013 23:37 Rekatan wrote:I still like queen/hydra vs tempest until their numbers are really high. I find drop play to be very good too, since tempest don't do well once split up. In that particular game P was pretty much maxed out on tempest, even though I was at his door around when he started building them, I sniped a few with abduct but they quickly outnumbered me and I couldn't do anything at that point. Toss was at 3 bases and his 3rd was rather late, so I'm not sure what I could do there. Also it was on neo planet so I couldn't quickly switch to his third as that would involve going around the entire map. | ||
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kubiks
France1328 Posts
On April 13 2013 10:09 Rekatan wrote: I think blinksters + colossi is a must. 90% of my losses probably are a result of really good blink micro and 6-8 colossi. Also warp gate zealot harass is incredibly strong vs this. I do this build and I love it  .I often forget to do viper, and it still works most of the time (they really need a huge amount of collosus to deal with it) My main problems are : -phenix openings. When they do that, I loose most of my mapcontrol (remove the OV of the map, and I need to do spores. If it's cross position Wirlwind, I have the impression it's really hard to prevent the protoss from expanding a it everywhere and keep track of his bases. -Good army positioning. Well I mostely encountered it on belsirh (and I removed the map after this). The main army goes around, snipes tumor, makes me relocalise, and so on. I loose all mapcontrol and can't really make economic damages. -Warp prism/zealots harass. Goes into your main, warp 10 zealots (or dts), and ravage everything. Queens and SH are too slow to defend this well, and making a spire or a big amount of static defense seems to expensive for the early game. Now I just let 1-2 SH in my main to defend this kind of things (they will not kill everything instantly, but will kill them eventually (protoss won't have any detection), before they ravage everything, and you don't have to send things to defend. I think on a big map it can be a good idea to have SH squads (probably dropped from an OV) that harras expands on other locations that the one you are pushing right now (well most of the time I have a main push). This way it uses some protoss APM, and it's arguably better than other drops (he have to bring detection). | ||
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d07.RiV
Russian Federation50 Posts
-Warp prism/zealots harass. Goes into your main, warp 10 zealots (or dts), and ravage everything. Queens and SH are too slow to defend this well, and making a spire or a big amount of static defense seems to expensive for the early game. Hydras do very well against this sort of harass though, a couple spines should buy enough time for hydras to spawn. If you're maxed out, perhaps its a good time for nydus. | ||
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Munk200
United States52 Posts
First off i love the guide, i have been practicing with it vs a friend of mine, we are both low to mid masters. The problem is i have lost every game we have played when i go for this style. once he sees the swarm hosts, he just techs to blink stalkers and walks around and destroys my base behind me. I think i may be moving out too soon with the swarm hosts. My questions to you are: When at what time should you move your swarm hosts to start attacking with them, like how many should you have? 3, 6, 10, etc etc? Second is how do you deal with blink stalkers? I was thinking if you see them go blink stalkers, don't mass queens like normal, but get speedlings instead, because they can actually keep up with the blinksters, and kill them. Thanks again. | ||
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UltiBahamut
United States102 Posts
 But i feel as though Reketan answered this is one of his videos and i've had the same experience. When you get the overlord speed when lair finishes around 7-8 minutes you should obviously scout. If you see the twilight council researching it is probably safe to assume its blink. What you have to do against this is play defensive, get up a couple more spines and wait until you get a higher number of swarm hosts. Personally against this i just take my third and play defensive until i get up to about 16-20 swarm hosts or i see them leaving before i really start pushing out and start putting pressure back on them. Due to the mobility of blink stalkers you NEED to have vision along every pathway, changlings work well for this. so if you start seeing him run by you can go back to defend or go into a base trade mode But when i move out against any other style i personally wait until i have about 8-10 swarm hosts. But i think that this is just my preference lol. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
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d07.RiV
Russian Federation50 Posts
so if you start seeing him run by you can go back to defend or go into a base trade mode Bad idea, SH are by far the slowest base killers, so unless you have a good amount of hydras you will die a painful death. Munk, one of the reasons for the Queens is to snipe the Observer(s) which P will HAVE to have. I don't know if you were intending to eliminate Queens from the comp, or just reduce the quantity in favor of lings, but you need some to snipe observers and don't forget that queens don't need larva while lings need lots. Keeping up on injects to produce lings will distract from SH micro, which is the top priority, keeping them safe. You will have (or at least I tend to have) a TON of minerals floating, even though I double expand almost right as SHs come out. Queens also take 50 seconds to pop so you can inject at that interval, collecting new queens as you do this. That said, getting hydras instead of lings works fine - sure, they can't chase down blinkstalkers, but they are even better at protecting SHs, and don't require a separate upgrade. By the way a neat trick to have a nearly finished creep highway by the time SHs come out is to bring the third queen out about 1/3 of the way and do a hatch cancel. | ||
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PsychoBob
United States22 Posts
Is there a way to queue move, burrow, rally? I constantly queue move + burrow and then jump around to do macro/econ or deal with something else only to come back to a bunch of half timer locusts just standing there not attacking because I couldn't queue their rally. | ||
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On April 20 2013 03:45 PsychoBob wrote: Is there a way to queue move, burrow, rally? I constantly queue move + burrow and then jump around to do macro/econ or deal with something else only to come back to a bunch of half timer locusts just standing there not attacking because I couldn't queue their rally. Nope. I wish you could, but you can't. Bearing that in mind, any time that I'm reinforcing or building up my swarm host numbers I manually control them. Ctrl+click hosts on front line, burrow, and spam rally+click. Don't shiftmove+burrow your hosts, just burrow them without a queue. This ensures all hosts will burrow simultaneously, enabling you to actually set the rally. If you shiftmove + burrow them, they will all burrow at different times and it's really messy. Swarm hosts may look passive at first glance, but there's actually a lot of micro involved. | ||
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MarlieChurphy
United States2065 Posts
As far as protoss goes, observers aren't going to cut it. You need oracles to do that reveal to deal with the zerg AA | ||
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Rekatan
United States172 Posts
Sorry for the late replies guys! Been at a conference for work all week. Getting to them now. | ||
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Rekatan
United States172 Posts
On April 18 2013 02:40 d07.RiV wrote: Bad idea, SH are by far the slowest base killers, so unless you have a good amount of hydras you will die a painful death. You will have (or at least I tend to have) a TON of minerals floating, even though I double expand almost right as SHs come out. Queens also take 50 seconds to pop so you can inject at that interval, collecting new queens as you do this. That said, getting hydras instead of lings works fine - sure, they can't chase down blinkstalkers, but they are even better at protecting SHs, and don't require a separate upgrade. By the way a neat trick to have a nearly finished creep highway by the time SHs come out is to bring the third queen out about 1/3 of the way and do a hatch cancel. I have to disagree with this one. SH base trade extremely well due to their survivability. I find often that they do well at pushing against the opponent while your support units pull back and stall/repel the opponent's army. This works particularly well vs Terran, since you can often cut off their production entirely and end the game outright the moment terran is forced to pickup and retreat. On April 20 2013 12:13 MarlieChurphy wrote: Seems like backdoor ling/roach drops during the middle stages of this build would open up the player and end the game sooner. Especially considering you already have lord speed. As far as protoss goes, observers aren't going to cut it. You need oracles to do that reveal to deal with the zerg AA Absolutely, drops synergize with this really well. I haven't had any replays recently demonstrating it but I do like to mix in hydra drops actually with this. Roach/ling could work as well though, so I suppose it's just a matter of preference (I find hydras+1queen to be the most efficient drop composition if micro'd well). | ||
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DaemonX
545 Posts
Been using your build all week and even when it doesn't wreck, it's fun and intense as hell and always provokes BM ^_^ On April 20 2013 23:14 Rekatan wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 18 2013 02:40 d07.RiV wrote: Bad idea, SH are by far the slowest base killers, so unless you have a good amount of hydras you will die a painful death. You will have (or at least I tend to have) a TON of minerals floating, even though I double expand almost right as SHs come out. Queens also take 50 seconds to pop so you can inject at that interval, collecting new queens as you do this. That said, getting hydras instead of lings works fine - sure, they can't chase down blinkstalkers, but they are even better at protecting SHs, and don't require a separate upgrade. By the way a neat trick to have a nearly finished creep highway by the time SHs come out is to bring the third queen out about 1/3 of the way and do a hatch cancel. I have to disagree with this one. SH base trade extremely well due to their survivability. I find often that they do well at pushing against the opponent while your support units pull back and stall/repel the opponent's army. This works particularly well vs Terran, since you can often cut off their production entirely and end the game outright the moment terran is forced to pickup and retreat. Woah, seriously? I was about to reply in favour of that guy's comment when I saw your post. I've found SHs to be *awful* in trades, they are SO slow at clearing out a base since you have to wait for spawns instead of just going from structure to structure like with regular units. Unless you mean *attempted* trades, in which case static at home + pumping out reinforcements + sending your whole support crew home and saving the base works great as you proved in your games...but I'd have to see a replay of an all-out, 'fuck it' base trade work before I'd believe it. | ||
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Rekatan
United States172 Posts
On April 20 2013 23:29 DaemonX wrote: Welcome back Rek! Been using your build all week and even when it doesn't wreck, it's fun and intense as hell and always provokes BM ^_^ Woah, seriously? I was about to reply in favour of that guy's comment when I saw your post. I've found SHs to be *awful* in trades, they are SO slow at clearing out a base since you have to wait for spawns instead of just going from structure to structure like with regular units. Unless you mean *attempted* trades, in which case static at home + pumping out reinforcements + sending your whole support crew home and saving the base works great as you proved in your games...but I'd have to see a replay of an all-out, 'fuck it' base trade work before I'd believe it. Ok ya I suppose I should elaborate a bit. In a perfect world their base trades will always become the *attempted* variety. In the event that they don't though, bring all spores and spines as well as any remaining army you have to your swarm hosts. This is where they actually become REALLY strong in a base trade. They WILL clear your base first, but as long as your spore/spine count at your SH is substantial enough, you now have a mobile base that doubles as defense for your swarmhosts. In most basetrade situations they are extremely gateway unit (or bio) heavy, so don't be surprised if they eventually come to the harsh realization that they physically can't break your positioning, and just leave once their production structures go down. Terran can fair a bit better in this situation due to liftoff, but if you have a few infestors you can often just catch their army and clean it up with locusts when they try to head off your push. | ||
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
(ZvP games featuring swarm hosts) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TNi1NaN.png) (Swarm host game summary) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/210b8bd.png) Just kidding. This kicks so much ass I've just got promoted to Masters for the first time ever, YAY! :D :D :D Protoss don't know what hit 'em. | ||
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DaemonX
545 Posts
On April 20 2013 23:37 Rekatan wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 20 2013 23:29 DaemonX wrote: Welcome back Rek! Been using your build all week and even when it doesn't wreck, it's fun and intense as hell and always provokes BM ^_^ Woah, seriously? I was about to reply in favour of that guy's comment when I saw your post. I've found SHs to be *awful* in trades, they are SO slow at clearing out a base since you have to wait for spawns instead of just going from structure to structure like with regular units. Unless you mean *attempted* trades, in which case static at home + pumping out reinforcements + sending your whole support crew home and saving the base works great as you proved in your games...but I'd have to see a replay of an all-out, 'fuck it' base trade work before I'd believe it. Ok ya I suppose I should elaborate a bit. In a perfect world their base trades will always become the *attempted* variety. In the event that they don't though, bring all spores and spines as well as any remaining army you have to your swarm hosts. This is where they actually become REALLY strong in a base trade. They WILL clear your base first, but as long as your spore/spine count at your SH is substantial enough, you now have a mobile base that doubles as defense for your swarmhosts. In most basetrade situations they are extremely gateway unit (or bio) heavy, so don't be surprised if they eventually come to the harsh realization that they physically can't break your positioning, and just leave once their production structures go down. Terran can fair a bit better in this situation due to liftoff, but if you have a few infestors you can often just catch their army and clean it up with locusts when they try to head off your push. Ok, MIND = BLOWN. Please link a rep of this occurring! One final query - I just saw your new PvZ, that's one of the best games I've seen this year. But I have ta, gotta ask - as insane as the control, decision and micro of you two guys was, surely there was a way to get a little bank once he veered off Void production into the colosus / tempest / HT army and smash out 15 corruptors? Feedbacks don't hurt Corrs, Coll don't shoot up, and both they and temps are massive units...can you say free clean up? I mean, I don't see myself ever surviving an encounter with that army like you did, but just resorting to a hard unit counter seems a way out. Was all that fancy footwork really necessary, or was there simply no way to get 1k gas clear when under that much pressure? | ||
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Rekatan
United States172 Posts
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Rekatan
United States172 Posts
I'll make sure to cast or post the next time I have this crazy situation arise! It happened a LOT in beta, but lately I have been able to head off base trade attempts before it's necessary. Ya, I actually just started experimenting with corruptors after some replays one of my stream viewers sent me of a corruptor/swarmhost open he has been working on. I think they're going to help a LOT, but I need to be careful that they aren't into voids. | ||
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