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On April 25 2013 11:14 SC2John wrote:
So I got an idea. It seems that swarm host play favors terran openings that invest heavily in gas early on and get a late expand. Using this thought process, is there a way to open with something like a REALLY early roach bust into SH? Or is there any way to force a very gas-heavy response very early?
I've been doing this roach push when I see a gas-heavy terran opening:
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-565-liquidsnute-zvt-vs-mine-openings-p1-6563117
But this is a response to his play; I can't think of a way to FORCE a gas opening from T.
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Dear sir could you also post some of the games you lost vs protoss? while going SH the pro ones aint so good cause the pro's play a bad game
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Russian Federation50 Posts
On April 24 2013 07:00 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 05:59 zJayy962 wrote:
You need to hurry up and figure out your ZvT. Tired of your shit Rekatan. Whats the point of a 90%+ winrate versus protoss and a 40% winrate vs T. That balances out to an overall 65% vs non-mirror. Not good enough?
That is assuming you get 50/50 ZvP and ZvT games.
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On April 25 2013 12:17 jade8472 wrote:
Hi Rekatan, I've been trying this build out and quite like it. A lot of Protoss at the Master level though when they scout infestation pit/swarm host will usually throw down double robo and pump non-stop colossi. Even if they cut down the number of supporting units 3-4 colossi will burn through the locust and queen fast enough so that transfusion doesn't work well. I'm curious what the proper response/transition to this should be?
I think you just have to scout it, and get vipers. Hive is 100 sec and 200/200 away, it's pretty much the price of a robo bay.
And he will need range, and enough collossus (with only 3-4 I doublt you push back SH that fast). So as long as you scout it, you have enough time for vipers I think.
Problem if he goes double robo is that he will make a warp prism if he's good and pump zealots everywhere -_-.
But I honestly think the most annoying opening he can do is phenix, because it kill your map control (by killing ovi all over the place), dealy you (you need spores, and make overlord to replace), and scouting becomes harder (you have all your OV at base, so when you want to scout it's a bit longer).
And if he follow phenix with double robo, that super annoying ^^
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Some things i've been wondering:
1) is the lowish drone/base count (compared to most zerg who whill spam tons of drones and expo everywhere) due to the cost efficiency of swarmhosts (as in, free units tend to die so you don;t need massive income to replace things)?
2) Would it be worthwhile to actually copy some tactical concepts from terran mech styles, such as expanding towards the opponent (instead of the usual expand away style favoured by other zerg builds), or do we need to ensure there's lots of room behind the hosts in case we need to do a hasty retreat?
3) do you have enough gas to go both infestor+viper, or is it essentially pick one caster and get the other much later in the game?
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On April 25 2013 12:17 jade8472 wrote:
Hi Rekatan, I've been trying this build out and quite like it. A lot of Protoss at the Master level though when they scout infestation pit/swarm host will usually throw down double robo and pump non-stop colossi. Even if they cut down the number of supporting units 3-4 colossi will burn through the locust and queen fast enough so that transfusion doesn't work well. I'm curious what the proper response/transition to this should be?
Ya by this point you optimally want to be into vipers, or if they haven't shown stargate yet corruptors will do. Honestly at only 3-4 colossi you're fine with just swarmhost/queen/hydra, it's not until they're at 7/8 that it's problematic (unless you've fallen behind in upgrades).
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I'll give this a go....
On April 26 2013 05:34 Undercroft wrote:
Some things i've been wondering:
1) is the lowish drone/base count (compared to most zerg who whill spam tons of drones and expo everywhere) due to the cost efficiency of swarmhosts (as in, free units tend to die so you don;t need massive income to replace things)?
Absolutely. That's exactly why.
Interestingly, I think a lot of protoss struggle against this because so many protoss strategies revolve around preventing, or delaying, zerg's third. Doing this causes a hit to their tech and econ, but this was ok because trades with zerg would be in protoss favour. With swarm hosts, however, protoss trade terribly early on, and so zerg's need for the third is drastically reduced because you just aren't losing units. Personally, what I like to see most is a protoss attempting a "kill the third" timing because I can even sac the expo and still be in great shape, and it's likely I'll kill a bunch of his stuff!
2) Would it be worthwhile to actually copy some tactical concepts from terran mech styles, such as expanding towards the opponent (instead of the usual expand away style favoured by other zerg builds), or do we need to ensure there's lots of room behind the hosts in case we need to do a hasty retreat?
I've been pondering along exactly these lines, but I'm still leaning towards "away" bases, personally. Experiment and see what feels good! A longer attack distance for him means he must go through more waves of locusts to push into you.
3) do you have enough gas to go both infestor+viper, or is it essentially pick one caster and get the other much later in the game?
I'm only confident speaking for ZvP, but most of the time vipers just win hands down. I'd only really think about getting some infestors if the opponent goes blink stalkers, or add on maybe ~3 to an endgame army.
I do actually find myself with an excess of gas, and starved on minerals... but I attribute this to bad economy management, rather than a sign to make more casters! It's not like WoL infestor broodlord where there's no such thing as too many casters; you want just a sprinkling to support your primarily hydra/host army.
Rekatan can likely give a much better answer than me, as I've played only a fraction of his games and at lower level.
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On April 26 2013 05:34 Undercroft wrote:
Some things i've been wondering:
1) is the lowish drone/base count (compared to most zerg who whill spam tons of drones and expo everywhere) due to the cost efficiency of swarmhosts (as in, free units tend to die so you don;t need massive income to replace things)?
2) Would it be worthwhile to actually copy some tactical concepts from terran mech styles, such as expanding towards the opponent (instead of the usual expand away style favoured by other zerg builds), or do we need to ensure there's lots of room behind the hosts in case we need to do a hasty retreat?
3) do you have enough gas to go both infestor+viper, or is it essentially pick one caster and get the other much later in the game?
1. It's both - you need more supply for the SH so you don't want as many drones, and you're running a very efficient composition so you need less income. Also on a side note, SH is very vulnerable to base harass, so the less bases you have, the less area you have to worry about back home ^_^
2. IMO probably not, when the opponent pushes out you want as much time as possible to wear them down before they reach your economy. Swarmhosts are TERRIBLE on the defensive, so the more time you get between their base and your base, the better.
3. It's generally essential to pick one. Super late game I've gone infestor/viper vs terran, but that's because I recognized a huge gas float so made infestors out of necessity (interestingly enough, it works REALLY well if you can pull it off)
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EPT
