|
On April 21 2013 00:05 Hairy wrote:This style is stupid, I don't know why anyone would use this. Rekatan doesn't know what he's talking about. Look how terrible my winrate has been when using his dumb strategy: (ZvP games featuring swarm hosts) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TNi1NaN.png) (Swarm host game summary) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/210b8bd.png) Just kidding. This kicks so much ass I've just got promoted to Masters for the first time ever, YAY! :D :D :D Protoss don't know what hit 'em.
You won a Diamond/Masters ZvZ using Swarm Hosts? :D
|
It can be done Wafflelisk :D
I use them from time to time as my super super late game.
|
On April 21 2013 14:09 Wafflelisk wrote:
You won a Diamond/Masters ZvZ using Swarm Hosts? :D
It was a really weird game. Normally I'd go the standard ling/bling into 2 base muta etc etc etc, but he was actually rushing mutas on 1 base. I saw it, did a TERRIBLE attempt at a bust and got way behind. Instead of competing in the muta race (as I would have been permanently behind) I went roach hydra and swarm host. 
|
I caught on to this style about a week ago, and have had pretty awesome results. I'm not high level (highish Plat), but it works wonderfully at my level as well. This style is actually why I'm moving up the ladder because Protoss is no problem at all now, even some Terrans get rolled with a variety of this. As long as I am smart enough to make Vipers or something other than Hydras when I see mass Colossus, it's easy peasy. So, thanks Rekatan, and for anyone not sure about the success of the style at different levels, see below:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Qt0FMpR.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VENuDn1.jpg)
|
He totally can't wait for the patch 
Unfortunately for him, thus far it looks like Zerg will be getting buffed in the patch. ^_^
|
hey Rekatan, I have always enjoyed using swarm hosts, and done decently with them in zvp, and plan on using your build order to refine their use. for zvt though, I have problems, and it seems like you delay them longer than in zvp, understandibly, but I am struggling with it still, so I was wondering if you have any idea when you will be able to work on putting a zvt build order together?
|
I wonder if you can answer these questions, and potentially add them to the first post:
1) How many queens/swarm hosts do you typically move out with? It seems like you are taking your 3rd at the same time that you have just started swarm host/queen production, so at that point you have 3 queens. Do you move out with only a few swarm hosts and 5ish queens? Do you have a "time" or supply that could be used as a benchmark?
2) When do you get Overlord speed? Is it right after Lair is started (ie, next 100 gas)? I'm assuming that you get it eventually.
3) How do you handle phoenix openings? It seems like moving out with queens off-creep doesn't work super well. They seem to be able to have 5+ phoenixes when I push out with my 5 queens, and it seems like that ends up beating my queens. Also, how do you deal with the phoenixes when they attempt to cut off reinforcements?
4) When do you begin to drone up your 3rd? I seem to only be able to support constant queens/swarm hosts off 2 bases, and I never have a chance to make drones at my 3rd.
5) If they take a fast 3rd, do you typically pressure it, or just go straight for the natural?
6) When do you mix in roaches/hydras, and in what situations?
|
Hey Rek,
Just came here to say thanks for your vids, my new favourite youtuber . After watching how you build and after you telling me i didn't need queens at home once you go into this style of play my SH play has gotten amazingly better and i reckon it's the reason i am now in diamond.
Also, for anyone reading this and who likes playing team games: use this build on Green Acres. I have used it the three times i have played on that map and managed to beat all three armies by myself while my team mates just teched and kept away the obs. Hilarious.
thanks again man.
Quester.
|
On April 22 2013 15:58 Vildar wrote:
hey Rekatan, I have always enjoyed using swarm hosts, and done decently with them in zvp, and plan on using your build order to refine their use. for zvt though, I have problems, and it seems like you delay them longer than in zvp, understandibly, but I am struggling with it still, so I was wondering if you have any idea when you will be able to work on putting a zvt build order together?
Unfortunately I would say I'm still a long way from having ZvT figured out with swarmhosts or otherwise. Every time I think I have things sorted out and start to eek towards 50% I run into something that makes me go "huh? Why is it ok that they can do that?"
That said, for the time being...
No comment =P
On April 23 2013 10:03 TheSambassador wrote:
I wonder if you can answer these questions, and potentially add them to the first post:
1) How many queens/swarm hosts do you typically move out with? It seems like you are taking your 3rd at the same time that you have just started swarm host/queen production, so at that point you have 3 queens. Do you move out with only a few swarm hosts and 5ish queens? Do you have a "time" or supply that could be used as a benchmark?
2) When do you get Overlord speed? Is it right after Lair is started (ie, next 100 gas)? I'm assuming that you get it eventually.
3) How do you handle phoenix openings? It seems like moving out with queens off-creep doesn't work super well. They seem to be able to have 5+ phoenixes when I push out with my 5 queens, and it seems like that ends up beating my queens. Also, how do you deal with the phoenixes when they attempt to cut off reinforcements?
4) When do you begin to drone up your 3rd? I seem to only be able to support constant queens/swarm hosts off 2 bases, and I never have a chance to make drones at my 3rd.
5) If they take a fast 3rd, do you typically pressure it, or just go straight for the natural?
6) When do you mix in roaches/hydras, and in what situations?
1. minimum 8 SH, queens will depend on what I see - anywhere from 3 to 10 depending on if I expect stargate play
2. Overlord speed as soon as I reach 100 gas, while lair is finishing
3. I generally find that phoenix open is one of the easier to deal with as long as you are quick with your transfusions. That said, if you are having trouble you are either moving out too early, or you are missing transfusions
4. I can usually find an opening to make 5-10 drones for my 3rd once the swarmhost pressure has started actually damaging buildings/units, anything more than that is too many drones anyways, and should be transferred from main/nat
5. Both, depending on where their army is relative to my most recent swarmhost spawn. Sometimes both at the same time >
6. Roaches can be a helpful added buffer vs single robo collo, and hydras are helpful to augment your anti-air production if you can't produce queens quickly enough to react to an air transition
|
On April 23 2013 10:19 QuesterX wrote:Hey Rek, Just came here to say thanks for your vids, my new favourite youtuber . After watching how you build and after you telling me i didn't need queens at home once you go into this style of play my SH play has gotten amazingly better and i reckon it's the reason i am now in diamond. Also, for anyone reading this and who likes playing team games: use this build on Green Acres. I have used it the three times i have played on that map and managed to beat all three armies by myself while my team mates just teched and kept away the obs. Hilarious. thanks again man. Quester.
Awesome, congrats on Diamond!!
Sure thing, happy to be your new favorite youtuber ^_^
|
So something i've been having an issue with is very active protoss players.
These are the protoss that will scout when you move out and simply counter like on daybreak if you go through the bottom path they will go on the top path. Do you always go back and defend or during this do you go for the attempted base trade of continuing your swarm hosts forward and pulling queens back while throwing up static defense? Ultimately i'm wondering what determines whether or not you go back and defend or not. I know in the most recent one you put up you made the comment that if you see voids mixed in you'll pull back and defend so i'm just curious.
But i've had issues with these protoss who keep it up even if i go back do defend, they simply will try to control where my locusts go by once again on Daybreak will keep constantly just going up then back down which keeps scaring me into sending my locusts that way so they simply dont push down and kill all my swarm hosts/4th etc. So because of this constant movement i feel as though i can never put any pressure onto the protoss so they can simply just build up anything they want while i'm trying to defend.
I think ultimately i could use this by splitting up my locusts and take a risk and try to get half of my locusts to flank them or to simply kill their fourth while the other half goes towards their army to defend mine.
|
On April 23 2013 13:23 UltiBahamut wrote:
So something i've been having an issue with is very active protoss players.
These are the protoss that will scout when you move out and simply counter like on daybreak if you go through the bottom path they will go on the top path. Do you always go back and defend or during this do you go for the attempted base trade of continuing your swarm hosts forward and pulling queens back while throwing up static defense? Ultimately i'm wondering what determines whether or not you go back and defend or not. I know in the most recent one you put up you made the comment that if you see voids mixed in you'll pull back and defend so i'm just curious.
But i've had issues with these protoss who keep it up even if i go back do defend, they simply will try to control where my locusts go by once again on Daybreak will keep constantly just going up then back down which keeps scaring me into sending my locusts that way so they simply dont push down and kill all my swarm hosts/4th etc. So because of this constant movement i feel as though i can never put any pressure onto the protoss so they can simply just build up anything they want while i'm trying to defend.
I think ultimately i could use this by splitting up my locusts and take a risk and try to get half of my locusts to flank them or to simply kill their fourth while the other half goes towards their army to defend mine.
You might want to consider using Nydus to a safe place near their expansion, but not one where they will immediately see it and deny it. This way you can use the Nydus to send one round of locusts at one of his expos, and be back where you need to be to defend.
Also, hydra drops where the enemy army isn't are also effective.
|
On April 23 2013 20:14 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 13:23 UltiBahamut wrote:
So something i've been having an issue with is very active protoss players.
These are the protoss that will scout when you move out and simply counter like on daybreak if you go through the bottom path they will go on the top path. Do you always go back and defend or during this do you go for the attempted base trade of continuing your swarm hosts forward and pulling queens back while throwing up static defense? Ultimately i'm wondering what determines whether or not you go back and defend or not. I know in the most recent one you put up you made the comment that if you see voids mixed in you'll pull back and defend so i'm just curious.
But i've had issues with these protoss who keep it up even if i go back do defend, they simply will try to control where my locusts go by once again on Daybreak will keep constantly just going up then back down which keeps scaring me into sending my locusts that way so they simply dont push down and kill all my swarm hosts/4th etc. So because of this constant movement i feel as though i can never put any pressure onto the protoss so they can simply just build up anything they want while i'm trying to defend.
I think ultimately i could use this by splitting up my locusts and take a risk and try to get half of my locusts to flank them or to simply kill their fourth while the other half goes towards their army to defend mine. You might want to consider using Nydus to a safe place near their expansion, but not one where they will immediately see it and deny it. This way you can use the Nydus to send one round of locusts at one of his expos, and be back where you need to be to defend. Also, hydra drops where the enemy army isn't are also effective.
I think the nydus is ok if they are anywhere other than threatening my bases. But if we are on daybreak and he is on the lower path where he can easily move to kill my fifth or fourth and my locust wave starts hitting his third he should be smart and simply kill both my fourth and fifth because there is a good chance i wont be back in position in time and then he can just run from the locusts. While it isn't the end of the world i'm generally not the biggest fan of trading bases like that. Even though i just saw a crazy game of reketan's last night :D
Hydra drops would be nice in the mid to late game. But when i'm still building all of my army and economy up is when i'm having these issues with highly active protoss. Because behind this they are building up a large sky-toss/collosus/high temp army.
|
You need to hurry up and figure out your ZvT. Tired of your shit Rekatan. Whats the point of a 90%+ winrate versus protoss and a 40% winrate vs T.
|
On April 24 2013 05:59 zJayy962 wrote:
You need to hurry up and figure out your ZvT. Tired of your shit Rekatan. Whats the point of a 90%+ winrate versus protoss and a 40% winrate vs T.
LOL!!!
If you want to make something happen on your own you're welcome to take the hit instead =P
Teach me, oh wise one!!
|
On April 24 2013 05:59 zJayy962 wrote:
You need to hurry up and figure out your ZvT. Tired of your shit Rekatan. Whats the point of a 90%+ winrate versus protoss and a 40% winrate vs T.
That balances out to an overall 65% vs non-mirror. Not good enough?
|
This strategy is soooo fun! I love you Mr. Rekatan.
|
United States4883 Posts
Thanks a lot for your research into SH, Rekatan! Every once and a while, a situation that favors Swarm Hosts over roaches comes up and I can easily transition into it using the general rules you've laid out for SH play.
I just got out of a ZvT where the terran did this funky fast hellion build into a hellion/mine contain and kept me on 2 bases for a while. I got out 6 queens and some speedlings to deny any kind of hellion runbys or hellion/marine plays. From this point, I realized I was stuck on 2 bases until lair tech against a terran on 2 bases with a lot of queens, so I just started teching up, fully saturating my mineral lines, grabbing burrow and overlord speed. Using the double blocks, I was able to cut off any attempts to get an early third and I broke out of my natural with a few roaches/queens/zerglings and started to transition into SH.
So I got an idea. It seems that swarm host play favors terran openings that invest heavily in gas early on and get a late expand. Using this thought process, is there a way to open with something like a REALLY early roach bust into SH? Or is there any way to force a very gas-heavy response very early?
|
Hi Rekatan, I've been trying this build out and quite like it. A lot of Protoss at the Master level though when they scout infestation pit/swarm host will usually throw down double robo and pump non-stop colossi. Even if they cut down the number of supporting units 3-4 colossi will burn through the locust and queen fast enough so that transfusion doesn't work well. I'm curious what the proper response/transition to this should be?
|
On April 25 2013 12:17 jade8472 wrote:
Hi Rekatan, I've been trying this build out and quite like it. A lot of Protoss at the Master level though when they scout infestation pit/swarm host will usually throw down double robo and pump non-stop colossi. Even if they cut down the number of supporting units 3-4 colossi will burn through the locust and queen fast enough so that transfusion doesn't work well. I'm curious what the proper response/transition to this should be?
Replay(s) would be good.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
