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On November 16 2013 20:17 hypnotoad.410 wrote:
where are the pros and cons of fleet compared to The Core?
Where are they? A list like that doesn't exist!
Fleet Keys and TheCore are also not the only layouts that exist so if there was one, I don't think it would or should be exclusive to the two. A comprehensive layout chart detailing the current layouts would be pretty sick imo.
As far as Fleet Keys and TheCore goes, I don't quite know what an unbiased pros and cons comparison would look like since they're so different. I think the best way to compare the two or even better --"describe" the two, would be to have some of the most experienced users and also some new users of each layout describe them and just go from there. The userbase/ thread & community activity for Fleet Keys is drastically smaller and less involved than TheCore's, so that would have to be taken into consideration I'd think. Lots of good FK feedback could be the difficult part due to this.
I had talked about setting up a portal thread for the known/completed available layouts in the past that I think could help out others when it came to these kinds of questions. Custom hotkeys are a really loved/hated topic where there are people using Standard and are happy because they're simply used to it (and pros use them so it's automatically proper), and then people who are interested in the topic and tinker/try out new things. It would be at the mercy of the mods at TL to decide whether it's even worth it because creating a thread like that only to bury it would be a waste. Having it stickied would be awesome, as there are strategy guides up there as well. Something like this could really round out the content you'd want to look for when coming to SC2 Strategy. That's a topic for another day I suppose.
TLDR; Doesn't exist. Experienced/new users of both layouts could chime in and we could make a fairly comprehensive one. A portal thread to the known layouts would be great for this...(would like to see one).
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Hey, I'm recently trying most of the custom layouts to find which suits me best (mostly yours and the core). I have a quick question tho, wouldn't it be better and more intuitive to use alt+1234 for cameras then alt+zxcv, considering you try to eliminate as much reaching down as possible. I find myself mostly having my fingers on numbers somehow anyway, probably a habit from using standard for long.
Also, which keys do you recommend as home keys? Terran/toss layout. Thanks!
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@Defaced
In the beginning I really wracked my brain over what I could do With Alt+1,2,3,4 safely, but couldn't decide on a sound way to really make anything meaningful happen with the idea. The two things I tried out were:
1. I could make an awkward combination to set the camera to 1,2,3,4 such as Shift+Alt+1,2,3,4 or Crl+Alt+, and use Alt+1,2,3,4 like you mentioned to recall it. In which case I would have to change the A,S,D,F cameras to Shift+Alt+to set and Alt+ to recall for consistency. Going this way would have players doing some really awkward stretching with Shift+Alt+1,2,3,4 and Ctrl+Alt+ isn't the easiest thing to pull off for most. I have large hands myself and it was awkward as hell for me--was I making a wrong assumption?
2. I could keep create camera as Ctrl+A,S,D,F and Ctrl+Z,X,C,V, and recall Alt+A-V as usual, but add an alternate binding to Alt+1,2,3,4 as recall for the Z,X,C,V cameras. This is obviously unintuitive as hell not to mention difficult to portray in a cheat sheet but also the most simple to implement. I was really torn on this one. Breaking the cameras up across 1-4 and A-F was also a bit strange, but yeah.. easiest solution.
As far as a homerow goes, I didn't really design it with a homerow approach per se. It ended up using the 1-3, Q-E and A-D keys a ton in the Alloy layout (I assume you're asking about Alloy), so for me I like to keep my thumb between Alt+Spacebar, pinky finger floating around the modifiers, and my other three fingers floating between the Q-E and A-D row. As army control becomes more important my three fingers sort of float up a row and Spacebar starts getting use for spells. Sorry if that wasn't helpful, but once you're playing with it, you'll realize that your fingers scan 1-D basically and executing A-Move commands is about as quick as you can possibly get with 3 CG's. Your wrist doesn't stretch around so that's good, and there's a nice bounce with finger actions, especially macro actions.
Got any ideas for Alt+1,2,3,4?
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Well, I guess I'm sort of used to inconsistent stuff :D but yeah, what you are saying makes sense, I just find it easier for me to use alt+1234 for camers, while setting em with ctrl+alt, works kinda simmilar to adding to hotkey with shift+alt+qwer. But yeah, for most people starting out i guess alt+zxcv for cameras makes more sense, especialy if they can reach down easier, my hands are kinda big too so it's just a little weird. Thats about it, thanks for putting your time into this, a really good layout overall!
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Quick question: isn't the command to build Protoss cannons inconsistent? It's assigned to C, but positionally it should be assigned to X.
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@mongoose22
Hey there, I checked it out and I'm correcting that now. I only found the problem in:
HotS_Multiplayer_FK_Alloy_QWERTY_PROTOSS_TERRAN.
Looks like a leftover binding from the Standard template! All fixed now and the download file is updated.
Edit: I also left C as an alternate binding for Cannons. *shrug* might be useful for people accustomed to Standard, or those who used this file for quite some time without questioning it.
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I've been toying around with a seemingly slight but (in my opinion) significant change in the suggested CG for Hatcheries/CC's/Nexuses and I want to know what you guys think. My goal is to refine these layouts as much as I can while still keeping the layout easy to pick up for the majority of players (experienced and new alike, Grid or Standard).
I was thinking about moving the suggested CG for the mentioned buildings down from Tab to Caps Lock. This is an extremely important and common CG to call upon, so I'm pretty excited to run this by anyone paying attention for some feedback. It may seem like an insignificant change but I'll offer up some strong points for discussion.
Benefits of Potential Change:
- The pinky is closer to the modifier keys. This brings you one key closer to Ctrl and Shift-- a
pretty big really big deal.
- With much less hand movement, you can now roll your fingers across Caps, Q and or other keys.
- More natural hand position. Although it's nice having these buildings on Tab, Caps Lock allows you to operate from a more central location, or "homerow" if you will.
With this change, I'm not sure where this leaves the Tab hotkey in the Protoss & Terran layouts. The options I see right now are:
- Make a simple swap of the current Caps Lock and Tab hotkeys in the Protoss & Terran layouts.
---OR---
- Alt+Caps Lock can be used as the new "Base Camera" hotkey in the Protoss & Terran layouts. This opens Tab up for either an army CG or Camera Location. Alt+Caps Lock also flows better with the Alt+A-V camera recalls and Alt+Q-R CG selections, and allows your pinky to put when performing said Alt+ actions..(leaning more towards this one atm)
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haha wooow so impressed by the rapidfire key. creep spread is so fun now. It even works with transfuse! My only complaint is that this layout keeps me wondering if my caps lock is on or off when I type.
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@Regtic
I know what you mean! It does add some comedy to the chat logs though doesn't it?
Also, do you use Caps for your Hatches/Nexuses/CC's, any thoughts on my last post?
Typical communication example
+ Show Spoiler +
You:
>"BOTH GUYS EXPANDED OH GOOD SO GREEDY!"
>"STARTING +1/+1 IN A SEC hurrrr"
>"Sorry, Caps is a CG in my hotkeys. I press is a lot."
Team Mate:
>"lol np sounds good!"
You:
>"Gearing up for a timing, I'll put on as much pressure as possible."
>"TAKE A THIRD BASE WHILE I DENT UP THEIR FRONT I'LL TRY EXPANDING BEHIND THIS TOO."
>"Srry caps."
Team Mate:
>"yep!"
You:
>"ALL RIGHT 30 SECONDS UNTIL UPS ARE DONE I'M MOVING OUT TAKE THAT BASE!"
>"GOGOOgogogo"
>"srrycaps."
Team Mate:
>:"OMGSTOPYELLINGATMEEE!!!"
You:
>"FFFUUUHHHH!"
>"lol"
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On January 13 2014 10:08 eneyeseekay wrote:@Regtic I know what you mean! It does add some comedy to the chat logs though doesn't it? Also, do you use Caps for your Hatches/Nexuses/CC's, any thoughts on my last post? Typical communication example + Show Spoiler +
You:
>"BOTH GUYS EXPANDED OH GOOD SO GREEDY!"
>"STARTING +1/+1 IN A SEC hurrrr"
>"Sorry, Caps is a CG in my hotkeys. I press is a lot."
Team Mate:
>"lol np sounds good!"
You:
>"Gearing up for a timing, I'll put on as much pressure as possible."
>"TAKE A THIRD BASE WHILE I DENT UP THEIR FRONT I'LL TRY EXPANDING BEHIND THIS TOO."
>"Srry caps."
Team Mate:
>"yep!"
You:
>"ALL RIGHT 30 SECONDS UNTIL UPS ARE DONE I'M MOVING OUT TAKE THAT BASE!"
>"GOGOOgogogo"
>"srrycaps."
Team Mate:
>:"OMGSTOPYELLINGATMEEE!!!"
You:
>"FFFUUUHHHH!"
>"lol"
hmmm I don't really play terran/protoss so I don't know. For zerg the key swap is not very significant I think because we use both keys equally as much. I only started using the setup today and I'm still not adjusted enough to play vs other people yet though.
(i used default aloy settings for zerg)
actually i just tried swapping them and i just realized how much more i do use hatchery than queens lol. It's a lot better swapping them imo, you're right.
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On January 13 2014 12:20 Regtic wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 13 2014 10:08 eneyeseekay wrote:@Regtic I know what you mean! It does add some comedy to the chat logs though doesn't it? Also, do you use Caps for your Hatches/Nexuses/CC's, any thoughts on my last post? Typical communication example + Show Spoiler +
You:
>"BOTH GUYS EXPANDED OH GOOD SO GREEDY!"
>"STARTING +1/+1 IN A SEC hurrrr"
>"Sorry, Caps is a CG in my hotkeys. I press is a lot."
Team Mate:
>"lol np sounds good!"
You:
>"Gearing up for a timing, I'll put on as much pressure as possible."
>"TAKE A THIRD BASE WHILE I DENT UP THEIR FRONT I'LL TRY EXPANDING BEHIND THIS TOO."
>"Srry caps."
Team Mate:
>"yep!"
You:
>"ALL RIGHT 30 SECONDS UNTIL UPS ARE DONE I'M MOVING OUT TAKE THAT BASE!"
>"GOGOOgogogo"
>"srrycaps."
Team Mate:
>:"OMGSTOPYELLINGATMEEE!!!"
You:
>"FFFUUUHHHH!"
>"lol"
hmmm I don't really play terran/protoss so I don't know. For zerg the key swap is not very significant I think because we use both keys equally as much. I only started using the setup today and I'm still not adjusted enough to play vs other people yet though. (i used default aloy settings for zerg) actually i just tried swapping them and i just realized how much more i do use hatchery than queens lol. It's a lot better swapping them imo, you're right.
Yeah I'm liking the feel of it as well, thanks for the feedback. My biggest concern was that the pinky is a really weak finger for some people (myself included-- very much so) but it can become pretty dexterous when trained. It's just kind of hard getting it to that point if you're pinky is as awful as mine. For people without that problem (I assume anyone who competently plays any instrument that requires their pinky, or even really good typists) it would be a huge benefit to swap the suggested Tab and Caps CG's.
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A quick question:
What apm do you guys reach with the FK as terran / toss ? I have been using Fleet Keys for 2 weeks now and from almost 300 apm i have dropped to just above 100, which is quite a significant change in the negative direction. I have also noticed that it has so happened owing to the ALT key for production facilities that hinders the smoothness of "doing the rounds" (I am Terran). Any thoughts on that guys ?
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Also, how is the ability to auto repair handled here ?
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@Beetlejuice1
2 weeks in and your apm dropped by roughly 66%? It's been a few more weeks at this point-- how is it now? It's totally normal for the apm drop, especially if you're new to non-standard layouts. If it's been well over a month and you're still at 100 apm/unable to play then I guess you have the obvious choice to make (discontinue or keep going with it).
Hotkey trainers are available on the arcade if you're having trouble getting used to the bindings.
As for auto-repair, you simply right-click on the icon to activate/deactivate it. Alt+Repair is supposed to toggle it from hotkeys, but I'll confirm that in a bit unless some else chimes in.
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Alt+D works to toggle auto-repair.
I've been using these hotkeys for a while now and my only complaint is the abundant use of alt for things like cameras and hotgroups, it's far too slow so I had to rebind those. And it works out decently.
Depending on matchup and length of game I'm anywhere from 150-200 apm with (slightly modified) fleet keys, so you get my recommendation.
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@Ullis
What does your modified version look like? I'm all for making the Protoss & Terran layouts faster and easier to use so let's here how you made it work better for you.
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On February 26 2014 22:42 eneyeseekay wrote:
@Ullis
What does your modified version look like? I'm all for making the Protoss & Terran layouts faster and easier to use so let's here how you made it work better for you.
Well, I tried removing things that I deemed important to hit instantly from alt modified keys. I'm still toying around with camera keys for where they fit in. Leaning towards either TGB keys (moves units created on T to S) for the three most important camera locations and then the rest on function keys, or just all of them on function keys. Unsure yet, typically I don't use more than 3-4 locations anyway.
For the control group hotkeys I moved them to, a location which most people will dismiss instantly I believe, namely the mouse. I have some variation of a gaming mouse that has a few extra buttons which I have mapped to production hotkeys leaving me with 1-5 on the keyboard for army, tab for CC and 7-0 are on mouse buttons and production. Also using the scrollwheel to click to tab between groups withitn a hotkey group.
Now I can see people not liking having to click things on their mouse for fear of loss of precision however for me it works fluidly and allows me to hit say, Rax->marine instantly as they only require one movement per hand.
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I would like to suggest that the (f2) key will only select units which are active on the field. This means that the units which are ordered to "hold" position (h) will not be selected by the (f2) hotkey. This will allow players to maintain his unit's scouting position and defend against multiple aggression while holding vision throughout the entire game. Thank you very much for considering. I love Starcraft 2 so damn much ! would love to see it becomes more user friendly for new players and other players in general . ^____^
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@Ullis
Ahhh ok, so you're making good use of your mouse buttons then. I only suggest subgroup selection for people with side mouse buttons and even then it's not a guarantee that people will have them. Given the fact that mice can take on drastically different shapes and feature a bajillion different configurations of buttons, I figured it would be easier to just leave mouse usage to each player's imagination. But yeah, subgroup selection is a good option for side buttons. Tabbed production and tabbing through army groups, etc.
As far as loss of precision goes I feel like it's mostly irrelevant if it's what you yourself are accustomed to. Me, I don't even have side buttons, but I have a middle mouse button (Razer Abyssus) and I make good use of it for secondary actions such as centering on selections and drag scrolling.
@Frost bitE
Can you even do that? Selecting only "active" units (I assume you meant army units in particular)? How I understand it is you can only select idle workers or simply "all" of your army units. I hope I'm wrong on that, because being able to select only active units would be a cool feature. Currently F1 and F2 perform subgorup selections to make up for the fact that you may/may not have access to side buttons at any given time. ` (tilde key) currently handles the idle worker/army commands. ` will select an idle worker, Ctrl+` selects all idle workers, and Alt+` selects all army units. I hope the content in this thread helped make controlling SC2 less daunting!
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On February 28 2014 11:44 eneyeseekay wrote:
@Ullis
Ahhh ok, so you're making good use of your mouse buttons then. I only suggest subgroup selection for people with side mouse buttons and even then it's not a guarantee that people will have them. Given the fact that mice can take on drastically different shapes and feature a bajillion different configurations of buttons, I figured it would be easier to just leave mouse usage to each player's imagination. But yeah, subgroup selection is a good option for side buttons. Tabbed production and tabbing through army groups, etc.
As far as loss of precision goes I feel like it's mostly irrelevant if it's what you yourself are accustomed to. Me, I don't even have side buttons, but I have a middle mouse button (Razer Abyssus) and I make good use of it for secondary actions such as centering on selections and drag scrolling.
Pretty much yeah, which is why I can't really recommend general improvements. As you know the number of keys around the area you selected for these keys is a bit limited but I do prefer this over, say, the core due to this being located around the WASD area which is where I spent the last 15 years playing games and know the way around. I do think you use the space very economically in this setup (especially Tab-Q for SCVS, dear lord it's so comfy I have trouble stopping scv production..).
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EPT
